What gaming headphones to buy? - Page 352 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #10531 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 04:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

Should wire them with UPOCC, if you're going to go with something other than the standard OFHC. Silver can be too bright. But I don't know what the sound signature of the DT48s is to begin with, maybe a little brightness would be great.

the stock wiring worked well, and I'm not sure what that was. It wasn't as bright as the K702, but was well presented. It was also less fatiguing as well. The Mids had a ton of clarity and presence. I think UPOCC will be nice, Silver might make them too bright so they don't sound like a DT480). The only thing that I didn't find completely fantastic was the Bass. Now, with a re-wire, I think most of that would be cleaned up... and would put these ahead of the K702.... and I'd have to buy them off of KBI. In the end, is to basically clean them up and make them sound a little better, without making them sound like a different headphone.

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #10532 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 05:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

the stock wiring worked well, and I'm not sure what that was. It wasn't as bright as the K702, but was well presented. It was also less fatiguing as well. The Mids had a ton of clarity and presence. I think UPOCC will be nice, Silver might make them too bright so they don't sound like a DT480). The only thing that I didn't find completely fantastic was the Bass. Now, with a re-wire, I think most of that would be cleaned up... and would put these ahead of the K702.... and I'd have to buy them off of KBI.In the end, is to basically clean them up and make them sound a little better, without making them sound like a different headphone.

That's what UPOCC is all about.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10533 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 07:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
formulanerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post
Should wire them with UPOCC, if you're going to go with something other than the standard OFHC. Silver can be too bright. But I don't know what the sound signature of the DT48s is to begin with, maybe a little brightness would be great.

well in theory, with an interchangable cable, you can wire them internally with silver so they're as transparent as possible, that way whatever external cable you use will sound true to it's composition.

maybe i'm wrong

No trees were harmed forming this post, though many electrons were inconvenienced.
SERGEANT SERGEANT MASTER SERGEANT SHOOTER PERSON
Then:|A40|AX720|F1|K702|DT880|ES7|MS2i Now:|MS1|AD700|PC360|A30
formulanerd is offline  
post #10534 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 07:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I dunno, there is a lot of debate on it, UPOCC vs silver. I guess I'm just a UPOCC guy.

Some people say silver makes headphones bright, some say it's so neutral/transparent that it reveals that the headphone really just is very bright. This may be true, but most headphones are designed and tuned to copper, so it makes sense that silver would make them brighter.

I dunno, it's just a personal preference thing. If you're only talking about the inch or two of wire inside the headphone, it won't make much difference either way.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10535 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 07:59 PM
Newbie
 
Ishmael408's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Try Sony MDR V-6. The infrasonics are sick!!! They will put you "in" the environment. Played Blair Witched Project back in the day and the imaging was outstanding.
Ishmael408 is offline  
post #10536 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 08:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would tend to agree with those statements... but if the driver is wound and built using copper.... would using silver to connect to source make much difference?

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10537 of 10626 Old 11-03-2010, 08:23 PM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post
Should wire them with UPOCC, if you're going to go with something other than the standard OFHC. Silver can be too bright. But I don't know what the sound signature of the DT48s is to begin with, maybe a little brightness would be great.
These are the DT480 not DT48.. I like bright..Ala, The SA5000 is one of my favorite headphones.. To me the DT480, while being pretty aggressive were a bit dark..But, again.. I haven't heard them for 3-6 months.. But for 1972, closed headphones.. They fair very well with upper mid fi to maybe 'high end' headphones like the DT880/701..

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10538 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 05:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

I would tend to agree with those statements... but if the driver is wound and built using copper.... would using silver to connect to source make much difference?

Yes, of course. Any cable between source and your ears will make a difference. The longer it is, the more the difference. That's why you can hear a difference between OFHC, UPOCC, silver, etc cables when you recable a headphone, even if they are copper wound drivers. But for an inch or two run inside the headphone, from the driver to the connector jack, I doubt you'd notice anything. Compared to the 6'+ long headphone cable's effect on the sound, it would be hard/impossible to notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBI View Post

These are the DT480 not DT48.. I like bright..Ala, The SA5000 is one of my favorite headphones.. To me the DT480, while being pretty aggressive were a bit dark..But, again.. I haven't heard them for 3-6 months.. But for 1972, closed headphones.. They fair very well with upper mid fi to maybe 'high end' headphones like the DT880/701..

Ah ok, I thought these were some of your DT48s. If they were dark for you to begin wtih, maybe a silver recable would work well for you? A lot more expensive than a standard OFHC recable, but basically in line with UPOCC if you were going that route anyway. This is talking about the actual headphone cable though, because again, I don't think the inch or two of cable from driver to connector will make much difference in price or in sound.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10539 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 10:33 AM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

Yes, of course. Any cable between source and your ears will make a difference. The longer it is, the more the difference. That's why you can hear a difference between OFHC, UPOCC, silver, etc cables when you recable a headphone, even if they are copper wound drivers. But for an inch or two run inside the headphone, from the driver to the connector jack, I doubt you'd notice anything. Compared to the 6'+ long headphone cable's effect on the sound, it would be hard/impossible to notice.

Ah ok, I thought these were some of your DT48s. If they were dark for you to begin wtih, maybe a silver recable would work well for you? A lot more expensive than a standard OFHC recable, but basically in line with UPOCC if you were going that route anyway. This is talking about the actual headphone cable though, because again, I don't think the inch or two of cable from driver to connector will make much difference in price or in sound.

Would 7-8 FT make a difference? I know the stock cable is 38 yrs old.

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10540 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 10:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
In my experience, I can definitely tell the difference between my 6 foot cables, a couple different UPOCC ones, an OFHC one from sideways, and the stockers. Big enough difference between them to easily tell (ie not a placebo). Sideways also listened to them, and was able to tell as well. 7-8 feet of a better cable would definitely make a difference.

Whether you want UPOCC or silver, or OFHC, I dunno though. Personally, I haven't tried silver for headphone cabling, as I'm a bit tentative about what I read about it being very bright. To me, that's too much extra coloartion from the cable, I'd rather just keep the sound signature the same (maybe I'm a purist). I do like a bright headphone, but I don't want to go over the top on already bright headphones (liket he 701 for example). I prefer to just clean and tighten everything up with UPOCC.

IIRC, I think sideways actually preferred his OFHC cable to the UPOCC cable, though. The UPOCC cable really tightened the bass dramatically IMO as well as improving clarity a lot overall. The OFHC improved clarity too, but not as much IMO, and seemed to have more bass than the UPOCC because (IMO) it wasn't as tight.. was a little looser so seemed to have more quantity. The UPOCC also smooths/cleans out the top end enough that they seem a little brighter, which makes the bass seem less. Basically between tighter bass reducing the quantity, and smoother/clearer/cleaner highs taking away from the bass a little, the bass on the UPOCC, compared to the OFHC, seemed to have less quantity, although it wasn't less than the stocker. I think in the end, sideways preferred the OFHC because of the bigger bass presence, but both the OFHC and UPOCC cables were a dramatic improvement over the stock cables on both the HD600 and K702 (only heard the DT880/600 with UPOCC, not OFHC).

I don't know if 38 years ago stock cables were better or worse than today, but either way, I can about guarantee you that a new (better) cable will sound much better. If I were you, I'd start with the OFHC because it's a great improvement and is cheap enough, and with the design sidways is doing for you, it will be trivial to try a different cable(s) in the future.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10541 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 11:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cham-Bana Illinois
Posts: 1,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

In my experience, I can definitely tell the difference between my 6 foot cables, a couple different UPOCC ones, an OFHC one from sideways, and the stockers. Big enough difference between them to easily tell (ie not a placebo). Sideways also listened to them, and was able to tell as well. 7-8 feet of a better cable would definitely make a difference.

Whether you want UPOCC or silver, or OFHC, I dunno though. Personally, I haven't tried silver for headphone cabling, as I'm a bit tentative about what I read about it being very bright. To me, that's too much extra coloartion from the cable, I'd rather just keep the sound signature the same (maybe I'm a purist). I do like a bright headphone, but I don't want to go over the top on already bright headphones (liket he 701 for example). I prefer to just clean and tighten everything up with UPOCC.

IIRC, I think sideways actually preferred his OFHC cable to the UPOCC cable, though. The UPOCC cable really tightened the bass dramatically IMO as well as improving clarity a lot overall. The OFHC improved clarity too, but not as much IMO, and seemed to have more bass than the UPOCC because (IMO) it wasn't as tight.. was a little looser so seemed to have more quantity. The UPOCC also smooths/cleans out the top end enough that they seem a little brighter, which makes the bass seem less. Basically between tighter bass reducing the quantity, and smoother/clearer/cleaner highs taking away from the bass a little, the bass on the UPOCC, compared to the OFHC, seemed to have less quantity, although it wasn't less than the stocker. I think in the end, sideways preferred the OFHC because of the bigger bass presence, but both the OFHC and UPOCC cables were a dramatic improvement over the stock cables on both the HD600 and K702 (only heard the DT880/600 with UPOCC, not OFHC).

I don't know if 38 years ago stock cables were better or worse than today, but either way, I can about guarantee you that a new (better) cable will sound much better. If I were you, I'd start with the OFHC because it's a great improvement and is cheap enough, and with the design sidways is doing for you, it will be trivial to try a different cable(s) in the future.

Sorry man, Have tried blind A/B testing with different cable types many times. Could never tell without just luck from guessing which is which on a 3 cable 10 times test. So I do not buy in to cabling makes a difference unless the run (length) causes so much resistance that the signal is some how affected in the audible range. To much voodoo, magic smoke and psycho-acoustics to justify spending money on something that in my opinion does not matter. The only thing I could see making a difference if the cabling was faulty or the assembly of the headphones was faulty as well and redoing it "fixed" the issue.
'

XBL-Steelhouse1

"No one wants to fight the naked guy."
cubdenno is offline  
post #10542 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What cables did you try, on what headphones?

I'm not talking about power cables or interconnects or anything like that, this is strictly headphone cables, from the cans to the amp.

Unless you are partially deaf, I would bet you a sizeable amount you could tell the difference between the different cables I have. They are like literally almost like different headphones. It's that night and day. Like the difference between a good amp and a crappy amp, or a good dac and a crappy one. Like the difference between coke and pepsi, for your ears.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10543 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 01:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
formulanerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

What cables did you try, on what headphones?

I'm not talking about power cables or interconnects or anything like that, this is strictly headphone cables, from the cans to the amp.

Unless you are partially deaf, I would bet you a sizeable amount you could tell the difference between the different cables I have. They are like literally almost like different headphones. It's that night and day. Like the difference between a good amp and a crappy amp, or a good dac and a crappy one. Like the difference between coke and pepsi, for your ears.


this is exactly right, but to some people, cola is cola.

No trees were harmed forming this post, though many electrons were inconvenienced.
SERGEANT SERGEANT MASTER SERGEANT SHOOTER PERSON
Then:|A40|AX720|F1|K702|DT880|ES7|MS2i Now:|MS1|AD700|PC360|A30
formulanerd is offline  
post #10544 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 02:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by formulanerd View Post

this is exactly right, but to some people, cola is cola.

I feel really bad for them Or should they feel really bad for me

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10545 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 02:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Sorry man, Have tried blind A/B testing with different cable types many times. Could never tell without just luck from guessing which is which on a 3 cable 10 times test. So I do not buy in to cabling makes a difference unless the run (length) causes so much resistance that the signal is some how affected in the audible range. To much voodoo, magic smoke and psycho-acoustics to justify spending money on something that in my opinion does not matter. The only thing I could see making a difference if the cabling was faulty or the assembly of the headphones was faulty as well and redoing it "fixed" the issue.
'

Disagree... I've not tried Silver... but tried the same cables from PJ and my cables... I KNOW I can hear a difference. I 've listened to the much more expensive cable and didn't really like the improvement it made (but that was before I really liked the K702). I don't think any cable is worth more than $100 or more, but... I haven't heard the more expensive ones to really say that. Placebo, maybe... for me... I disagree.

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10546 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 02:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ferrisg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Suburbs of Minneapolis
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

I feel really bad for them Or should they feel really bad for me

I hate getting into these discussions, and had worked up a post a few hours ago full of math for why there is no difference, then scrapped it. I may redo it later. The problem with the statement is that on a spectrum analyzer there is no measurable difference between different types of conductors, and that's a device that's several orders of magnitude more sensitive than our ears. Combined with the fact that the resistivity, wire losses, and skin depth are nearly identical between all of the common conductors, about all one could do is purposely color the signal with additional components. If the cable is just wire, it will have very little effect on acoustics signals, even if you buy into our ability to perceive ultrasonic signals in the 100kHz range.

The only real way to settle it for yourself is good double-blind testing. I understand why most people don't want to go to those lengths because of what a pain it is, but other testing is too susceptible to contamination. I can say that I have very good hearing (based on standard hearing tests I've taken throughout my life) and I can't hear a difference between various interconnects, power cables, or wiring changes for speakers or headphones, but that doesn't mean anything. If somebody wants to spend money on any of that stuff, that's their business. It doesn't change the fact that even sensitive test equipment can't tell copper from silver by looking at the transmitted signal, but it's pointless to try to change minds in such arguments anyway.
ferrisg is offline  
post #10547 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 02:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisg View Post

I hate getting into these discussions, and had worked up a post a few hours ago full of math for why there is no difference, then scrapped it. I may redo it later. The problem with the statement is that on a spectrum analyzer there is no measurable difference between different types of conductors, and that's a device that's several orders of magnitude more sensitive than our ears. Combined with the fact that the resistivity, wire losses, and skin depth are nearly identical between all of the common conductors, about all one could do is purposely color the signal with additional components. If the cable is just wire, it will have very little effect on acoustics signals, even if you buy into our ability to perceive ultrasonic signals in the 100kHz range.

The only real way to settle it for yourself is good double-blind testing. I understand why most people don't want to go to those lengths because of what a pain it is, but other testing is too susceptible to contamination. I can say that I have very good hearing (based on standard hearing tests I've taken throughout my life) and I can't hear a difference between various interconnects, power cables, or wiring changes for speakers or headphones, but that doesn't mean anything. If somebody wants to spend money on any of that stuff, that's their business. It doesn't change the fact that even sensitive test equipment can't tell copper from silver by looking at the transmitted signal, but it's pointless to try to change minds in such arguments anyway.

Agreed.... I've built multiple interconnects and what not... I can't hear much of a difference... but on my headphone cable.... I could. You can through as much math at it as you want, but when I listened to 4 different cables, they each sound a little different... and I didn't pick the most expensive cable... that's good enough for me. Damn the math! It's my ears, I heard it... I believe it...

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10548 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ferrisg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Suburbs of Minneapolis
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

Agreed.... I've built multiple interconnects and what not... I can't hear much of a difference... but on my headphone cable.... I could. You can through as much math at it as you want, but when I listened to 4 different cables, they each sound a little different... and I didn't pick the most expensive cable... that's good enough for me. Damn the math! It's my ears, I heard it... I believe it...

I get that, which is why the arguments are pointless. About the only way to get somebody to change their mind on this topic is to have a properly controlled double-blind test with them. If someone can hear a difference more than chance, it's good enough for me to question what's going on, and if someone can't they often start to re-think their position.
ferrisg is offline  
post #10549 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisg View Post

I get that, which is why the arguments are pointless. About the only way to get somebody to change their mind on this topic is to have a properly controlled double-blind test with them. If someone can hear a difference more than chance, it's good enough for me to question what's going on, and if someone can't they often start to re-think their position.

I take this is based on your double blind tests and not articles or other sources, but from your own experience? I think math would be based on a perfect example with reproduceable results... real world, things chance and everything can affect and alter the results. So I'd like to participate in such a test... though, I've used the K702 with 3 different cables and have used my wife to test (she thought she heard a difference as well).... and she thinks the speakers in her m11x are just peachy. I've also had my uncle listen, and he chose my latest cable too... and he listens to all his music on 20yr old Magnapans (not that, that makes much difference). Just saying...

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10550 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 03:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ferrisg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Suburbs of Minneapolis
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

I take this is based on your double blind tests and not articles or other sources, but from your own experience? I think math would be based on a perfect example with reproduceable results... real world, things chance and everything can affect and alter the results. So I'd like to participate in such a test... though, I've used the K702 with 3 different cables and have used my wife to test (she thought she heard a difference as well).... and she thinks the speakers in her m11x are just peachy. I've also had my uncle listen, and he chose my latest cable too... and he listens to all his music on 20yr old Magnapans (not that, that makes much difference). Just saying...

Yes, I've done my own double-blind listening tests. Never with headphone wire, but with speaker wire (where every effect is magnified because of the higher power), compression algorithms, interconnects, and power cables.

The math of resistance of the cable, skin depth, wire losses, and any other effect is not some ideal condition. The numbers are so small that tolerances in the wire production are negligible. And measuring a signal on an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer takes into account the actual DUT anyway. I've never measured headphone cables, but I have measured speaker wire on an oscilloscope before. I also measure much lower-level signals that are much more sensitive to noise everyday as part of my job. I work as a electrical design engineer and have a fair amount of experience with test & measurement of electrical signals and electronics.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this discussion at this point, because, as I've already pointed out a couple of times, internet arguments over this are always unfruitful.
ferrisg is offline  
post #10551 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 04:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisg View Post

Yes, I've done my own double-blind listening tests. Never with headphone wire, but with speaker wire (where every effect is magnified because of the higher power), compression algorithms, interconnects, and power cables.

The math of resistance of the cable, skin depth, wire losses, and any other effect is not some ideal condition. The numbers are so small that tolerances in the wire production are negligible. And measuring a signal on an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer takes into account the actual DUT anyway. I've never measured headphone cables, but I have measured speaker wire on an oscilloscope before. I also measure much lower-level signals that are much more sensitive to noise everyday as part of my job. I work as a electrical design engineer and have a fair amount of experience with test & measurement of electrical signals and electronics.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this discussion at this point, because, as I've already pointed out a couple of times, internet arguments over this are always unfruitful.

Obviously I can't, nor should I even try to discredit you. You obviously know what your talking about. I've very limited experience in what I've sampled. In the end, everyone will hear differently no matter what. My ears aren't instruments or an oscilloscope... just my ears...

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10552 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 05:33 PM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I prefer my 16.00 interconnects over my 80.00 Cardas Silver.. More dynamic & aggressive sounding.. Forgot the brand... But they also make a lot of cables & gear for computers.. Belkin I think..

I spent 150.00 on the Cardas cable people swear by when paired with the 650.. To be frank, I didn't hear a difference.. But I do know cables can influence the sound.. I had my SA5000 recabled with a stock 650 cable & nuetered the SA5000 strengths.. So cables do matter.. Another owner who also had his SA5000 recabled with the stock 650 cable had the same complaints. He PMed me. So I'm wasn't imagining things.

So please don't tell me It's placebo, when I already stated I heard no difference between the 150.00 Cardas & stock 650 cable.. But I have heard differences between other cables.. I had 3 of my DT48 recabled with APS V3 cable. There is a difference. I won't kid myself or others into thinking you will get your moneys worth spending between 200-300 for a 3rd party cable.. I do know Alex from APS spent many yrs & money coming up with his own cable design.. Not all cables are created equal.. & the quality & sturdiness is tops, plus his life time warranty...

& Alex recabled my SA5000 for FREE with the 650 stock cable. He also came to me via IM after I posted the left channel went dead on my SA5000 in a head fi thread.. In no way did he push his cables on me, or told me I should buy his cause his are better.. He is a straight shooter, which is why I go to him..

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10553 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 05:44 PM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_Rage View Post

In my experience, I can definitely tell the difference between my 6 foot cables, a couple different UPOCC ones, an OFHC one from sideways, and the stockers. Big enough difference between them to easily tell (ie not a placebo). Sideways also listened to them, and was able to tell as well. 7-8 feet of a better cable would definitely make a difference.

Whether you want UPOCC or silver, or OFHC, I dunno though. Personally, I haven't tried silver for headphone cabling, as I'm a bit tentative about what I read about it being very bright. To me, that's too much extra coloartion from the cable, I'd rather just keep the sound signature the same (maybe I'm a purist). I do like a bright headphone, but I don't want to go over the top on already bright headphones (liket he 701 for example). I prefer to just clean and tighten everything up with UPOCC.

IIRC, I think sideways actually preferred his OFHC cable to the UPOCC cable, though. The UPOCC cable really tightened the bass dramatically IMO as well as improving clarity a lot overall. The OFHC improved clarity too, but not as much IMO, and seemed to have more bass than the UPOCC because (IMO) it wasn't as tight.. was a little looser so seemed to have more quantity. The UPOCC also smooths/cleans out the top end enough that they seem a little brighter, which makes the bass seem less. Basically between tighter bass reducing the quantity, and smoother/clearer/cleaner highs taking away from the bass a little, the bass on the UPOCC, compared to the OFHC, seemed to have less quantity, although it wasn't less than the stocker. I think in the end, sideways preferred the OFHC because of the bigger bass presence, but both the OFHC and UPOCC cables were a dramatic improvement over the stock cables on both the HD600 and K702 (only heard the DT880/600 with UPOCC, not OFHC).

I don't know if 38 years ago stock cables were better or worse than today, but either way, I can about guarantee you that a new (better) cable will sound much better. If I were you, I'd start with the OFHC because it's a great improvement and is cheap enough, and with the design sidways is doing for you, it will be trivial to try a different cable(s) in the future.

I don't care if the cable adds color to the DT480.. I already have the DT48 for my 'boring' neutral fix.. I just want the cable that will make the biggest improvement.. Bigger bass presence would be great. I do like silver. I had silver innterconnects from moon audio.. They seem more 'serious' & 'sterile' though.. But again.. I like bright & vivid sound.. I need something different from my totally bland DT48.. To sum it.. Is like listening to music with the EQ turned off.. But in the long run I find this a virtue..

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10554 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 06:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I didn't mean to start up a huge debate on cables.

I will say that I have a hard time telling the difference between interconnects and I've never done any blind testing with them, or power cables, speaker cables, etc. I don't fully agree that there is NO difference, but I concede that the differences are small, if any at all. Definitely not night and day, in my experience so far with the cables I've tried.

I don't want to get into the whole science of it, because frankly, I don't care what the instruments say. If I hear a difference, there is one. Period. All that means to me is that the proper equipment is not being used, or not used in the proper way to show the difference.

I fully admit that I generally do not buy into cables doing all that much. There is so much BS surrounding audio and video cables that it's outrageous. I understand why you're skeptical.

The difference in headphones cables is so much more than any other cables I've changed. I haven't tried to measure it with a spec a or any other equipment, but it's not a placebo effect. Ferris, if you tried swapping headphone cables in my setup, I guarantee you 100% you could tell the difference. It's not subtle or mistakable, at all. It's literally as if changing to a completely different amp/dac or even headphone. The easiest way to a/b them is to have a modular set up like the K702, HD600, or something else, then you can change cables within seconds and hear the differences. I can assure you the cables I mentioned are all different, no two ways about it. I would place a bet with you that even you could hear the difference. Now, if you want to argue that it's not the cables, but instead it's better soldering, better shielding, better connectors on the end of it, or the stars and moon and align every time the cables are changed, fine, but whatever it is, there is 110% a difference that anyone could plainly hear.

Also, I honestly don't know how, as an EE, you can argue that two completely different materials conduct electricity exactly the same.

SXRD/Oppo/Yamaha/Klipsch
PS3/PSN: pj_rage
360/Live: pjrage82

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan
Dude please, your list of toys is so long its like Santa is your dad lol.
PJ_Rage is offline  
post #10555 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 07:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Personally, I like my defense on the differences of headphone cables the best...

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10556 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 08:41 PM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post

Personally, I like my defense on the differences of headphone cables the best...

Let people believe what they want. I bought 6.00 component cables.. You know.. A cable is just a cable right My TV screen was like looking at a rainbow..It would turn from red to blue to yellow, to green.. Then I buy 24.00 component cables.. What do you know.. & beautiful & crisp picture.. According to EE this shouldn't happen since a cable is just a cable right

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10557 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 08:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Shin CZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 3,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I feel that analog cables do make a difference, though digital cables (like HDMi) are pretty much always exactly the same, unless the cable is just utter crap.

I have used a few different extension cables for my headphones, and each one has a difference. Very subtle, but the difference is there. I'd say that there is a less than 5% difference in sound between each cable. Not noticeable by most, but if you give them time, you will notice.

I personally don't care for that negligible <5%, but for those trying to squeeze out every little bit of SQ out of their stuff, recabling has merit. I personally wouldn't spend as much on cables as some people, but that's the price you pay to go that extra mile.

Recabling for me is mostly something I'd wanna do to get a stronger more durable cable than the ones I'd wanna replace. For example, the Creative Aurvana Live has a terribly weak looking cable that I'd wanna change ASAP for a thicker one. Not because I care about the slight SQ difference, but for durability.

As for component cables, like KBI said, it makes one helluva difference between a good one and a bad one. Adding picture to the equation will show how much cables do make a difference in that aspect, at least until you go digital.
Shin CZ is offline  
post #10558 of 10626 Old 11-04-2010, 09:01 PM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Headfi members now of the infamous 'thunder pants.' The heavily modded T50..

Well, I'm calling this headphone The SWZ DT480 TX1000 special edition I'm so pyched to see & hear this thing..

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
post #10559 of 10626 Old 11-05-2010, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SID3W8Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Derby, Ct. USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBI View Post

Headfi members now of the infamous 'thunder pants.' The heavily modded T50..

Well, I'm calling this headphone The SWZ DT480 TX1000 special edition I'm so pyched to see & hear this thing..

I'm gonna get some letters so I can imprint SWZ in the Epoxy before painting.

I'm not with the Crazies, They just like to stand next to me!

Headphone Audiophiles
SID3W8Z is offline  
post #10560 of 10626 Old 11-05-2010, 10:34 AM
KBI
AVS Special Member
 
KBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SID3W8Z View Post
I'm gonna get some letters so I can imprint SWZ in the Epoxy before painting.
Nice.

The #1 spot for gaming headphones/headsets/Mic mods/DH 5.1/links & more.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...494101?sk=info
KBI is offline  
Reply Xbox Area

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off