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post #721 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

Do tell. I may have missed a feature but I recall you can actually take a corner faster with a well timed bump than you could following the racing line.

With damage that idiot is not going to bump you knowing he could lose top speed and handling if he does.

Damage modeling alone won't fix that (it definitely didn't in any other racing game released in 2009). I wouldn't put too much stock in what damage modeling will or won't do. The better solution is to find a consistent and fair set of environmental and artificial penalties (slowing on impact, better collision physics, more natural response to different surfaces, etc). Then worry about adding damage, but only after you get at the more underlying issues.

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post #722 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

You don't need a Formula One license to include Grand Prix vehicles. They're owned by the individual constructors that compete in Formula One. If they want to include something like a Lotus 49b from 1967, they have to license it from Classic Team Lotus. If they want to include Ferrari's latest F1 machine from 2009, they have to license it from Ferrari. The designs are owned by the F1 constructors that have designed, built, and entered them into competition, not by the sanctioning body.

This is why Formula One venues and Formula One vehicles can appear in games that don't have the official FIA F1 license (Such as TOCA 3, which included several classic and contemporary F1 vehicles and 8 or 9 current venues that F1 competes on, despite Sony having an exclusive Formula One license at the time).

I understand the car designs are owned by the F1 teams but I could have sworn I read somewhere that being the cars are still F1 and have liveries designed and licensed for F1 you'd still need the F1 license. Could be we get a mockup of a livery rather than the authentic one. I think the reason why you see RUFs and not Porsches is because RUF isn't part of a racing league, doesn't have a livery, and VINs their own cars so they cut that connection with Porsche. I could be wrong though. Then again it'd explain why stock cars are in Forza 3 as they don't have the Nascar license and the livery-less car design is owned by Ford, Dodge and Chevy.

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post #723 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Damage modeling alone won't fix that (it definitely didn't in any other racing game released in 2009). I wouldn't put too much stock in what damage modeling will or won't do. The better solution is to find a consistent and fair set of environmental and artificial penalties (slowing on impact, better collision physics, more natural response to different surfaces, etc). Then worry about adding damage, but only after you get at the more underlying issues.

Personally a damage model, even if mediocre, is far superior to any timed penalty you can get. There's no difference in a 10 lap race if car A damages his car in lap 1 and car B doing the same exact thing in lap 9. Both will finish the same distance apart as when the 1st crash happened as both cars would be penalized the same time/speed. With damage, car A will either have to pit to repair damage or drive with damage the rest of the race which will directly impact his final time. I'm with you though on better collision physics and better response to different surfaces though. I'm not a fan of 'sticky grass' but I understand why it's there, to prevent cheating time trialers from getting better times and this sole reason is why I wouldn't mind wonky feel of stickiness in certain sections of a track in any game.

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post #724 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cuco33 View Post

I understand the car designs are owned by the F1 teams but I could have sworn I read somewhere that being the cars are still F1 and have liveries designed and licensed for F1 you'd still need the F1 license.

Then again it'd explain why stock cars are in Forza 3 as they don't have the Nascar license and the livery-less car design is owned by Ford, Dodge and Chevy.

The paintschemes just have to be approved by the sanctioning body and follow certain guidelines, otherwise the sanctioning body has nothing to do with it. It's a practice that is pretty widespread, even in national touring series such as NASCAR (There are many limits in particular in NASCAR on your car livery, for example you can't use decals that resemble chrome for some odd reasoning).

The stockcar modeled in Gran Turismo 5 I would think requires NASCAR licensing and GT5 appears to have a NASCAR license (EA's exclusive license of recent years has been concluded). The car design was developed in-house (The vehicle known as the COT, or "Car of Tomorrow") and NASCAR retains all rights to it. The only area the car manufacturers are involved in these days as far as the car goes is they still develop some of the mechanical components used in them, primarily the engine.

The only thing visually differentiating one make of vehicle in NASCAR's top division (The one modeled in GT5) is the decals applied to the vehicles for branding purposes (The manufacturer's logo on the hood, the headlight decals, the fake radiator grille decals, etc.). The bodys are stock and constructed to NASCAR's own design. and don't vary from make to make these days.

Forza 3 doesn't have a NASCAR license? Is the Car of Tomorrow the one modeled? If it is, I'm pretty certain it's been licensed from NASCAR, but I don't have the game to do something like check the fine print in the manual or anything like that.
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post #725 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cuco33 View Post

Personally a damage model, even if mediocre, is far superior to any timed penalty you can get.

Well, now we're getting into what exactly we all mean when we say "damage modeling." Many folks seem to just mean cosmetic damage effects. Others mean a detailed and dynamic set of effects to performance components/systems. Obviously the second is far preferable to the first.

Regardless, the problem with damage modeling is that in online competition, purely damage-based solutions never work. Every online racing game released last year rewarded t-boning, cheated corners, and rail riding, and all the major releases used damage modeling. Damage is nice, but fair and functional penalties need to be in place first.

From a development perspective, damage modeling is much easier to design than is a fair and consistent penalty system--which is why Shift and FM3 chose the former to the latter. The difference is that a "mediocre" damage system doesn't ruin the game, but a "mediocre" penalty system does. It needs to be damn-near perfect, or it's worse than useless.

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post #726 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 01:28 PM
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You should try Forza on simulation. If you want more than cosmetic, then play a race in a race not set to cosmetic difficulty! I have T-Boned people by REALLY mistaking my speed and approach. I lost a TON of speed and some handling... effectively my race was over due to one missed corner. Just as it should be!

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post #727 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

The paintschemes just have to be approved by the sanctioning body and follow certain guidelines, otherwise the sanctioning body has nothing to do with it. It's a practice that is pretty widespread, even in national touring series such as NASCAR (There are many limits in particular in NASCAR on your car livery, for example you can't use decals that resemble chrome for some odd reasoning).

The stockcar modeled in Gran Turismo 5 I would think requires NASCAR licensing and GT5 appears to have a NASCAR license (EA's exclusive license of recent years has been concluded). The car design was developed in-house (The vehicle known as the COT, or "Car of Tomorrow") and NASCAR retains all rights to it. The only area the car manufacturers are involved in these days as far as the car goes is they still develop some of the mechanical components used in them, primarily the engine.

The only thing visually differentiating one make of vehicle in NASCAR's top division (The one modeled in GT5) is the decals applied to the vehicles for branding purposes (The manufacturer's logo on the hood, the headlight decals, the fake radiator grille decals, etc.). The bodys are stock and constructed to NASCAR's own design. and don't vary from make to make these days.

Forza 3 doesn't have a NASCAR license? Is the Car of Tomorrow the one modeled? If it is, I'm pretty certain it's been licensed from NASCAR, but I don't have the game to do something like check the fine print in the manual or anything like that.

Hmmm, didn't know some of that. I always thought, for example, Dale Earnhardt Jrs #8 Bud car was designed by the team livery designer and sponsors following some of those you mentioned and the final design gets approved by NASCAR due to rules n regulations and that livery is locked to only NASCAR. If say a lower class car series or another racing league altogether wanted to mock the same livery design and number and got approval from all sponsors including the team itself they couldn't do it because of NASCAR'S exclusive license locking that livery in place. Similar (well sort of lol) to how physical design of F1 cars are locked and can't be altered mid season. Maybe that whole thing was just for the team numbers since sponsors could probably walk out the door at any time, sans contract. That chrome logo is banned probably because it can cause a blinding effect from reflection due to the lights. But if it's NASCAR's own car design then wouldn't that part be the licensing factor? I'm not sure what year the stock cars for NASCAR are in GT5 but in Forza 3 I believe it's 2008 models, so last season's. I'm not into NASCAR so I wouldn't know. I am into open wheel racers and so far that's a big 1up that GT has over Forza. Both (will) have endurance racers like Audi's R10/R15, Pug's 908, Lolas n Panoz n whatnot and I already love them in FM3 and will be a welcome in GT5 for me.

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post #728 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankJ.Cone View Post

You should try Forza on simulation. If you want more than cosmetic, then play a race in a race not set to cosmetic difficulty! I have T-Boned people by REALLY mistaking my speed and approach. I lost a TON of speed and some handling... effectively my race was over due to one missed corner. Just as it should be!

But then you run into the problem of how the hoppers are set up in FM3. Unless they've changed them already since I last played, you couldn't change any of the settings in riff-raff races. You have to race in private lobbies instead. Severely limits the playability of the game since it isn't easy to get the same group of people together to race on a regular basis.

Again, shows just how complicated this all is from a design perspective!

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post #729 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 03:24 PM
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Well, now we're getting into what exactly we all mean when we say "damage modeling." Many folks seem to just mean cosmetic damage effects. Others mean a detailed and dynamic set of effects to performance components/systems. Obviously the second is far preferable to the first.

Regardless, the problem with damage modeling is that in online competition, purely damage-based solutions never work. Every online racing game released last year rewarded t-boning, cheated corners, and rail riding, and all the major releases used damage modeling. Damage is nice, but fair and functional penalties need to be in place first.

From a development perspective, damage modeling is much easier to design than is a fair and consistent penalty system--which is why Shift and FM3 chose the former to the latter. The difference is that a "mediocre" damage system doesn't ruin the game, but a "mediocre" penalty system does. It needs to be damn-near perfect, or it's worse than useless.

I was working overseas in EU for most of 2009 and dealing with a lot of family/friend issues when I got back (was very rough year for me). Only racing game I got in 2009 was Forza 3 and I'll tell you that you can NOT win if racing with full damage/simulation on and 'bump n run' race mentality like T-boning, corner cutting and rail riding, unless of course you don't manage to total the car and everyone on the track are horrible drivers. Your car's aero will be affected even if you pit in and repair all damage so either your top speed or handling (or both, depending how you set it) will be affected the remainder of the race. On tracks like La Sarthe (Le Mans) you'll lose top speed and drop in rankings fast. I like the idea of a great penalty system on top of damage like a real flag system mimicking their race league/genre variants but if given the choice I'd opt for damage in a heart beat. It's not really about the visuals; like most think of losing a mirror or bumper or having broken windows and tail lights. It's about the damage done directly affecting the car's performance characteristics and I absolutely applaud PD for finally bringing us damage across the board. I know crashes and resulting damage is extremely difficult (and near impossible due to so many variables) to nail right especially in this gen but something is better than nothing. If you hit a wall hard on passengers side it should directly affect how your car performs. If you rear end someone hard in a front engine mounted car, damage should result. In either case, damage or flag systems will be turned off by the bulk of GT/Forza players due to arcade racing mentality that you find on consoles. Damage will only be seen visually with no affects to the car, as it's been a problem with FM2 and FM3 online and will be for GT5. More serious sim racer will have full simulation on.

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post #730 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 03:26 PM
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But then you run into the problem of how the hoppers are set up in FM3. Unless they've changed them already since I last played, you couldn't change any of the settings in riff-raff races. You have to race in private lobbies instead. Severely limits the playability of the game since it isn't easy to get the same group of people together to race on a regular basis.

Again, shows just how complicated this all is from a design perspective!

Definitely is complicated! lol It must be a nightmare to code and debug right. PC sims haven't had as many issues of idiot racers because the people who play those games are more core oriented not found nearly as much on consoles. I myself have yet to race publicly online in FM3 because of the problems with idiots I've dealt with in FM2. Usually I setup races with friends or join 'race nights' or leagues.

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post #731 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 04:05 PM
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Ah Flags... sometimes I wonder why the console race developers do not make a few less cars and take that time and put in a good race series. Flags and all. It would sure be nice to have a PC quality season on console.

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post #732 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 05:22 PM
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For some reason, they think they need nonsense like about every Honda Civic variant ever produced in these games.

They're almost more of a Pokemon game with cars rather than racing games. Many fans enjoy the collection aspect and upgrading their purchases more than actually racing on the track.

Hopefully this game changes all of that. Things like upping the field size so you can't count all your opponents on the fingers of one hand should help increase the appeal of the racing aspects of the series. Hopefully the AI improves a ton over past entries in the series so they're more than just rolling road blocks. Things like that list of features recently posted show a lot of promise that we're in for the biggest upgrade this series has ever had, in my opinion.
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post #733 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 06:13 PM
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post #734 of 3784 Old 01-06-2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:

The same news item on the Official US Gran Turismo website
Gran Turismo 5 Package Art Revealed

The video's good too. At the bottom of the article.
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post #735 of 3784 Old 01-07-2010, 03:23 PM
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So I have an Obutto racing seat with a Buttkicker. I have a dedicated 360 with the audio dongle that allows me to output optical to my AX 720's and analog to my Buttkicker.

I do not have any analog cables for my PS3 so I cannot test this myself but does anyone know if the PS3 can do the same?

EDIT: Remembered my PS3 shipped with analog cables. Turns out you can use optical and analog.

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post #736 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 06:53 AM
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Amazon has the preorder for $54.99 with free shipping this week.

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-98114-Gra...&link_code=as3

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post #737 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 08:56 AM
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Amazon has the preorder for $54.99 with free shipping this week.

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-98114-Gra...&link_code=as3

I think it has been at that price since a long time (with free shipping too). A good thing about pre-ordering is the price guarantee, which means that if the price falls down before the release date, amazon will refund the difference.
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post #738 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 09:49 AM
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If this really gets released in March its going to be a bad month economically for me. GT5, GOW3, White knight Chronicles and Final Fantasy XIII all at once. And I still want to get Bayonetta too. ...

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post #739 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 10:29 AM
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If this really gets released in March its going to be a bad month economically for me. GT5, GOW3, White knight Chronicles and Final Fantasy XIII all at once. And I still want to get Bayonetta too. ...

Isn't it being release in Japan in March? It still doesn't have an official U.S. release date.

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post #740 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 11:00 AM
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Isn't it being release in Japan in March? It still doesn't have an official U.S. release date.

It was originally stated that it would be released worldwide in roughly the same timeframe, but I think the overcrowded March (especially for Western-targeted games) convinced Sony to push it back a few months outside of Japan.

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post #741 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 07:51 PM
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I don't think Japan was ever given an official date, just March 2010. And US/EU was said to be shortly after like Summer 2010. I'm patient though and won't be importing a Japanese copy.

FYI on gtplanet is says 1 million downloads in EU so far for the TT demo. Not bad!

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post #742 of 3784 Old 01-12-2010, 11:41 PM
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post #743 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 02:13 AM
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Not surprising...
http://kotaku.com/5446924/gran-turis...lease-date-tba

Sweet holy jesus. We were close this time, fellas. Nearly made it. Anyone care to start placing bets on a 2011 release date?

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post #744 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 04:25 AM
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Sweet holy jesus. We were close this time, fellas. Nearly made it. Anyone care to start placing bets on a 2011 release date?

Sony has a lot of games coming out this spring, summer is still a "slow" time of year... Christmas seems like a safe bet at this point.

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post #745 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 04:47 AM
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Wow... I wonder what happened, this time?

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post #746 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 06:40 AM
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Gran Turismo 5 faces new delay
Sony has announced a fresh delay for Gran Turismo 5 - the latest in a line of them for the title.

The game had been due for release in Japan in March, but that would now be pushed back a month, the company confirmed in a press release.

No reason for the delay was given, and Sony said it would shortly announce a new release date.

Some online reports are saying the release originally said the delay would be three months, which was subsequently changed to one month.

Gran Turismo 5 was first unveiled at E3 in 2006 and in April 2008, Polyphony Digital head Kazunori Yamauchi said that 150 people had been working on the highly anticipated game for three years.

As of 2008, the Gran Turismo series had shipped over 50 million units on multiple PlayStation formats.

A release date for the game in Europe has still yet to be confirmed.


http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...aces-new-delay

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post #747 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 06:57 AM
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It sounds like it was delayed for finance reasons. Why release GT5 in March when you have GOW3 coming out the same month?
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post #748 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 06:58 AM
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It sounds like it was delayed for finance reasons. Why release GT5 in March when you have GOW3 coming out the same month?

It was not coming out in the U.S. in March it was only announced for Japan.

The 5.0 is here
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post #749 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 07:00 AM
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Why GT5 is taking so long:

Christmas time at PD. The game is content complete! Now, just a few months of polishing here, optimising there, and GT5 is good to go. PD are having a little office party to celebrate, there's some champagne, there're nibbles, there's a great vibe. Everyone is happy.

Kaz enters the office. He has taken to wearing a driver's helmet at all times now. People stifle their laughter.

Kaz:"Good job everyone! Cheers!"
All:"Cheers!"
Kaz:"Well, as you'll no doubt have heard, I've just got back from my endurance race, it's good news all round!"
Everyone lifts their glasses and cheers.
Kaz:"To celebrate, I'm going to try out the Honda I've just raced in GT5!"
Nervous glances all round.
PD coder 1:"Come now, Yamauchi-san, why not wind down, have a drink-"
Kaz takes to the controls.

10 minutes later

Kaz:"No. No, no, no! There's something off, it just doesn't feel right. Doesn't feel real!"
PD coder 1:"But Yamauchi-san, the game is due for release, we've done all the content now, it's too late to-"
Kaz:"Do you see this helmet I am wearing?"
PD coder 1looks down)"Yes, Yamauchi-san. I see the helmet."
Kaz:"Do you know where I got this helmet?"
PD coder 1still looking down)"You got it at the endurance race, Yamauchi-san."
Kaz:"At the endurance race. That's right. Where I raced. In a real car. At a real race. Because I, unlike you, am a real racing driver, you see."
PD coder 1looks back up)"But please, Yamauchi-san, it's just a simulation, it will never feel completely real-"
Kaz points to his helmet. PD coder 1 looks back down.
Kaz:"It is not quite right. Do it again. All of it, again."


The 5.0 is here
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post #750 of 3784 Old 01-13-2010, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

It was not coming out in the U.S. in March it was only announced for Japan.

If the game was only delayed a month... its probably financial reasons. I don't know the deal. Maybe Sony is having better than expected Q1 sales. FFXIII and other games are helping them. Maybe they want to align the dates for all territories like past games - it certainly doesn't seem like a tough game to translate.
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