Killzone 3D with optional Arc control - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The KZ3 thread is now here.

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Old 03-04-2010, 11:41 PM
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Another new revolutionary motion controlled FPS

Call of Duty, too!

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Old 03-04-2010, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, we know the Wii has wand control.

I chose those clips because the PC titles have a similar HD resolution, and you can see the hand movements as they demo the action. I'll edit and replace the clips with KZ3D demos if/when they are available.

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:11 AM
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I bought CoD3 on the Wii. It was a lot of fun with motion control. (Other than the crappy way they forced you to use it to apply C4 and turn things).

I would certainly play Killzone 3 with motion control if they had a bundle.

The real problem I see here though is would I spend $30 for a camera, $50-$99 for "arc" and $60 for a game to do it? Probably not.

I think bundling a high profile game with everything needed for $99 would be a no brainer. Sure Sony would lose some $$ upfront but it would certainly get the controller out there fast.

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:17 AM
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The 3D I don't care about. But FPS with Arc I can really support. That's just a much better control method than the thumbsticks for FPS.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:28 AM
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I always said that it would be successful for a FPS to marry the controls of the Wii with the hi-def graphics and sound that everyone loves. The Wii controls really combine the best of the controls from the console (analog stick movement FTW) with the "point-and shoot" accuracy of a mouse. Can't wait to see how the ARC is implemented with the PS3. Does it have an IR pointer function like the Wiimote?

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:39 AM
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hmm, sounds interesting. I will have to check the vids when I get home.

Since they're pushing K3 for christmas, I wonder where does that leave R3.

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Old 03-05-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazylik View Post

hmm, sounds interesting. I will have to check the vids when I get home.

Since they're pushing K3 for christmas, I wonder where does that leave R3.

AFAIC they can take ANOTHER two years to fix the MP they so successfully ruined with R2.

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Old 03-05-2010, 03:53 PM
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I dont know about wand pointing a FPS. I've grown VERY accustomed to the R3 stick. I think I would struggle with a redicule that moves within the screen(prolly why Im horrible at chopper gunner), how would you make the screen turn? Taking the redicule to the edge of the screen and waiting for the screen to turn like in that video seems off.

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Old 03-05-2010, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Watch the last 1/4th of the first video.

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

The 3D I don't care about. But FPS with Arc I can really support. That's just a much better control method than the thumbsticks for FPS.

no really, its not... try it sometime, motion controls and FPS are terrible
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonies View Post

no really, its not... try it sometime, motion controls and FPS are terrible

Worked great in Metroid Prime 3 and Resident Evil 4 (I know that's not an FPS, but same idea; aiming with the wand).

Personally, I can't wait for an Arc-supporting RE5.

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Old 03-05-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martez View Post

Worked great in Metroid Prime 3 and Resident Evil 4 (I know that's not an FPS, but same idea; aiming with the wand).

Personally, I can't wait for an Arc-supporting RE5.

the FOV in metroid is linear (only 90ish degrees) its not a FPS where you have to turn around 360 degrees and be accurate. Also the accuracy in metroid is not anywhere near as important as in a FPS hell the crosshair in the game is HUGE. do you really want to be sniping someone with a crappy wand? trust me you don't. You want to see how bad a FPS sucks with motion control go play medal of honor for Wii, its awful
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:32 PM
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I don't like the control scheme of the Wii Wand with COD. I like the idea of aiming around the screen (not holding off in the center like with most FPS today) with a similar device for the PS3, so long the aiming is not included with turning the character or perspective around 360 degrees. So far, I've seen nothing coming soon with that feature. To be honest, I have no idea how anybody would.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:44 PM
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Maybe you're used to it, but I find it completely impossible to aim with a thumbstick. Any degree of accuracy is just impossible, a nudge jumps the cursor too far. By the time I'm finished aiming I've been shot two or three times. I'm used to either the mouse or the old light gun games like Area 51. It seemed to me the only practical way to point with a normal controller in a first person game was done like Ocarina of Time or Devil May Cry - locking on to the nearest target.

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Old 03-05-2010, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow View Post

Maybe you're used to it, but I find it completely impossible to aim with a thumbstick. Any degree of accuracy is just impossible, a nudge jumps the cursor too far. By the time I'm finished aiming I've been shot two or three times. I'm used to either the mouse or the old light gun games like Area 51. It seemed to me the only practical way to point with a normal controller in a first person game was done like Ocarina of Time or Devil May Cry - locking on to the nearest target.

you're either bad or need practice, I grew up using a keyboard and mouse and while yes it was way more accurate back in the day I have adapted quite well to the console controllers. Just remember that PS3 controllers are not binary, there is a bit of touch to them, my friend always slams the stick all the way one way or the other and wonders why he sucks and can't hit anything, when I tell him to use more touch and don't move the controller so much he gets better again. but trust me, motion controls on non-fixed FOVs sucks
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Trust someone who openly admits he's worse with a mouse than a control pad stick for aiming? That's hilarious. In each and every game that's come out on console that has allowed both input methods, the thumbstickers get destroyed by a competent mouse played, as expected. Developers who port games for PC or console after first making the other actually adjust the difficulty a lot of times just to make it easier to hit things on the console (auto aim, lock on aids, or dumb down enemy A.I. movement), or make them harder to hit them on PC if that version came second.

It's not even seriously debated in the real world. Developers have been trying for years to see if they can do it (fairly matching the two inputs without gimping mouse controls) and they simply can not do it, so they've given up.

With a mouse, you can simply look at an x/y position on your screen and can almost instantly whip the cursor to that spot before you pull the trigger. Your control over the rate of speed as you aim is extremely precise, unlike the thumbstick where you have to approximate the speed adjustment as you move. Strafing on console is used to help compensate for this lack of precision, but you never have to strafe to aim with the mouse. The level of sensitivity and responsiveness is not equal between the two methods.

For instance, if each control method can move you in any direction from, say, 1 to 1000 in speed, any decent mouse player can adjust from 30 speed to a gradual 300 speed to a near instant 700 speed and back down to 10 speed, all in different directions within a two second time period with little effort. The thumbstick control is simply unable to match that level of precision. It is impossible. You can't increase/decrease speed that smoothly, that quickly, and certainly not with pixel-perfect stop on a dime accuracy. Anyone who has played Counterstrike knows how effortlessly you can jump, whip around 180 degrees in the air and skillfully headshot a moving target up high on a bridge a quarter of a map away with your AK-47.

Here's a test for anyone.... if you are reading this on a computer, try and "write" your first and last name in cursive on the screen with the arrow as quickly as you can using the mouse. Even without seeing the results, you'll know that you did a competent job of it. Now switch on the PS3 browser and try to spell your name in cursive again with the arrow using the thumbstick. Clumsy ain't it? Even if you tweaked the sensitivity and practiced for ten years straight with the stick, you won't ever match the speed and precision of the mouse. Ignoring the speed difference, you'll have to admit that you are still writing smoother and more accurately with a mouse.

Actually, these 1:1 wand control inputs actually have the potential to be more precise for average gamers than the mouse, but I'd be happy with it simply matching the precision. My brother is a casual and never could quite get mouse control down in FPS battles since he doesn't practice a lot, but for light gun games he is an expert marksman. These wand controllers are closer to light gun styled inputs than we've ever had (except for light guns themselves of course), so I'll be interested in seeing how quickly he catches on to something like the Arc.

EDIT: Here's a quote from the developer of the FPS title "The Agency" coming for PC and PS3 that states the obvious - unless you unfairly gimp mouse controls or unfairly buff up console control (with auto aim, etc.) they are unequal:

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The second problem is gameplay balance, as the difference between PC mouse-and-keyboard versus the PS3's controls gains particular weight with a shooter.

"We can do things to equalize them, whether that's aim assist on the console or other things on the PC, but when we've actually done focus group testing and so forth, you're always going to have the console players versus the PC players," Wilson says. "There's always a dynamic of 'It's not fair!' for whatever reason. So, it is important that we take those considerations on that."


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Old 03-06-2010, 10:02 AM
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I have no idea why you're comparing mouse and keyboard to console controls... everyone with a brain knows that M&K is superior...

We're debating console controller vs. motion control, and there is one that is far more accurate and easy to use and everyone with a brain knows which one that is.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonies View Post

I have no idea why you're comparing mouse and keyboard to console controls... everyone with a brain knows that M&K is superior...

We're debating console controller vs. motion control, and there is one that is far more accurate and easy to use and everyone with a brain knows which one that is.

Motion controls?

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Old 03-06-2010, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonies View Post

I have no idea why you're comparing mouse and keyboard to console controls... everyone with a brain knows that M&K is superior...

Maybe your post above my last one has something to do with it.

Anyway, as I said I hope that 1:1 motion controls approach a light gun level of precision, which would be awesome. Anyone who has played Time Crisis or Virtua Cop or House of the Dead knows how precise that input style is (even better than a mouse). It's already clear that wands can approach mouse-like control, but to match or even surpass it is something I look forward to checking out.

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Old 03-06-2010, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonies View Post

you're either bad or need practice, I grew up using a keyboard and mouse and while yes it was way more accurate back in the day I have adapted quite well to the console controllers. Just remember that PS3 controllers are not binary, there is a bit of touch to them, my friend always slams the stick all the way one way or the other and wonders why he sucks and can't hit anything, when I tell him to use more touch and don't move the controller so much he gets better again. but trust me, motion controls on non-fixed FOVs sucks

Any game I have to "practice" at isn't a hell of a lot of fun

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Old 03-07-2010, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Anyone who has played Time Crisis or Virtua Cop or House of the Dead knows how precise that input style is (even better than a mouse).

I played the Virtua Cop games quite a bit on the Saturn, and I would never have considered it as precise as a mouse would be. It might be more enjoyable, from a pure fun-factor standpoint, but I'm sure a mouse would be significantly more accurate. Games like Virtua Cop have such a lenient hit box that even if you're not aiming it perfectly, you usually hit the guy your aiming at.
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Old 03-07-2010, 01:20 AM
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I played the Virtua Cop games quite a bit on the Saturn, and I would never have considered it as precise as a mouse would be. It might be more enjoyable, from a pure fun-factor standpoint, but I'm sure a mouse would be significantly more accurate. Games like Virtua Cop have such a lenient hit box that even if you're not aiming it perfectly, you usually hit the guy your aiming at.

Lightguns were pretty accurate, pixel accurate in those times, with a little bt of jitter depending on the gun and/or screen.

That why lots of those games had long range location hit boxes, ie weakpoints, headshots and disarms
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow View Post

Any game I have to "practice" at isn't a hell of a lot of fun

You're not practicing the game. Your practicing mastering the dual analog sticks which is a staple of playing most home console games which are usually played comfortably on the couch btw.

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Old 03-07-2010, 11:34 AM
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Just the ones where you hide behind things and shoot at people. I know those make up 95% of PS3 games but I just don't find them entertaining.

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Old 05-21-2010, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Killzone in 3D is official. Gamepro magazine has the info, and someone has summarized the article:

Quote:
- Will show the Helghast have humanity left in them.

- Will have the feeling that "of being in a place far away from home, outnumbered by people who want to kill you."

- Will be like Inglorious Basterds.

- All of the characters in the screenshots are flying in.. jetpacks?!

- Will include arctic levels.

- One mission in the game involves rescuing ISA Captain Narville.

- Game is playable in 3D!

- Have to wear 3D glasses, apparently the 3D effects are "crazy."

- Combat is "unchanged from predecessor."

- Or is it? Hand to hand combat involves you "Unloading a string of different (and often brutal) attacks on stunned enemies."

- The scale is supposed to be "bigger this time."

- The Jetpacks are "surprisingly lightweight and agile, Killzone 3's jetpack is easier to maneuver compared to the sluggish incarnations of the gadget found in other games."

- New weapon called the Wasp, basically shoots a "flurry of rockets" at an enemy.

- Will show off the Helgjast culture.

- There is actually a Helghast language, which will be explored in the game.

- Will have "diverse locales."

- Have to sit in the center of the 3D TV for the 3D effects to work.

- 3D in this game is called a "Game Changer."

- Going to have "Intense Action"

- Jetpacks double as a weapon, which basically means a machine gun mounted right on top of it.

- If you shoot Helghast with jetpacks, they'll "explode like roman candles"

- To control the jetpack, you "have to activate bursts of speed in midair, propelling yourself across further distances."

- The Jetpack resembles something you'd do in platformers such as Super Mario Bros. Or Uncharted

- In one mission, you have to use the jetpack by "launching yourself from glacier to glacier"

- You'll see "a lot of" snow levels.

- Everything is more spread out in this game.

- The game looks very complete.


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Old 05-21-2010, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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ign.com has a summary of Gamepro's article as well:

Quote:
Killzone 3 is aiming to be bigger and better.

New details about the game were revealed in the latest issue of GamePro magazine, and it looks as though developer Guerrilla Games is looking to take the Killzone franchise to a whole new level.

The most notable change to the gameplay for Killzone 3 is the inclusion of jetpacks, which seem to act as a form of double-jump for crossing terrain more quickly and easily. The developer says the jetpacks resemble "something you do in platformers such as Super Mario Bros. or Uncharted."

Shooting an enemy wearing a jetpack makes them explode "like roman candles."

Another major addition is the option to play the game entirely in 3D, which requires 3D-enabled glasses and television to work. It was stated that this added a nice effect to the arctic snow level Frozen Shores that was shown in the demo. The snowflakes become more noticeable, and enemy bullets pop out as they fly past your head.

The gun combat remains relatively unchanged from the previous game. A new weapon was detailed, The Wasp, which discharges rockets that look like a swarm of robotic insects.

The levels are also said to be much larger in scale compared to the past game.

The new issue of GamePro is currently being shipped to subscribers. The issue will hit newsstands on June 1.


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Old 05-22-2010, 08:46 AM
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Personally, I like to sit back and relax when I game. Sitting up straight and aiming a wand at the TV is a chore.
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Old 05-22-2010, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a pleasant surprise... Naughty Dog is working on Killzone 3's graphic engine with the developer:
Quote:


Killzone 3 details hit the net last night. Early readers of US mag GamePro's expose suggested that certain sections of the title - including jetpack areas - would resemble Uncharted. We were as confused as you.

Today, on further inspection, the full truth has been revealed: Uncharted developer Naughty Dog is involved in the creation of the title.

The studio has reportedly co-created the 'graphics engine' of KZ3 - suggesting it will be built on the same development blocks as multi-award winning Uncharted 2.

It has been working on the game in collaboration with long-term Killzone dev, Amsterdam's Guerilla Games.

The 3D, jetpack-boasting title will largely take place in snowy locales, according to last night's report.

New weapons will include a jetpack-mounted machine gun and The Wasp - which fires multiple rockets at once.

All eyes are on the official announcement at E3 next month. Sony's conference takes place on Tuesday, June 15th - and we'll be reporting live from the event.


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Old 05-23-2010, 11:04 AM
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Personally, I like to sit back and relax when I game. Sitting up straight and aiming a wand at the TV is a chore.

If it controls anything like the Wii controller, you can be even more relaxed and laid back than with a controller. For FPS I haven't found anything that controls better than the Wii controller.
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