PS3 slim is having trouble loading certain Blu-ray movie discs - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 59 Old 01-13-2011, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
So I'm having a really strange problem with my PS3 Slim 120GB. It plays blu-ray games w/o issues, but every now and then when I get a blu-ray from Netflix, it has trouble loading the disc. I put the disc in, it starts spinning, then stops and makes the eject noise and starts spinning again only to stop once more. At this point, the blu-ray doesn't show in the XMB. I have to remove it and repeat the process anywhere from 5-10 times before it works.

I know what you're thinking...probably a bad/scratched/cracked disc from Netflix, but here's the deal, it's always happened when I've received a brand new disc from them. The discs have never been played and have no scratches, smudges or cracks on them.

So far it has happened on The Bourne Ultimatum, Toy Story 3 and just yesterday with Inception. And again, they were all brand new discs from Netflix.

I always have the latest firmware and I have no issues with games or other blu-rays...just these brand new discs.

It's really interesting because it tries to load it, fails, makes and eject type noise where I assume it is trying to reload it and then fails again.

I don't get any error in the XMB, it just doesn't even show the blu-ray in there. One last thing, once I get it working by loading/unloading the disc several times, it doesn't have an issue playing it ever again.
russr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 59 Old 01-13-2011, 01:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have this exact same problem. No issues when it comes to loading game discs but if I put in a blu ray movie. It spins, makes the eject noise, spins, etc..after a few time of ejecting and inserting the disc it will load but it is VERY frustrating. My PS3 is up to date, etc..

Why would this only affect Blu Ray movies?

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #3 of 59 Old 01-13-2011, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Wow, I thought for sure I'd be the only one having this issue. Let me ask you something, were your blu-ray discs also brand new? If they were, do you find that after they start playing you no longer have the problem with the disc?
russr is offline  
post #4 of 59 Old 01-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Member
 
busaman79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I has one of the older fat PS3's and mine had the same problem, only in reverse. Mine would play B.D.'s but not games. My brother in law sent his PS3 to Sony to get fixed and it cost about half of what a new PS3 costs. I never did resolve my problem, I just went and bought a new slim. I have heard though you can call t.s. and they can talk you through something. I rtied to call them when at my brother in laws house but I did not have the PS3 with me and they would not tell me how to fix it without the serial number. I know that was lazy on my part to just buy a new one, but I was sick of hearing the fan and figured my fat sys was on it's way out. Still smarter than buying a 360. Sorry didn't mean to type that. Good Luck!
busaman79 is offline  
post #5 of 59 Old 01-13-2011, 10:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Most recently I had trouble playing Dances With Wolves and Once Upon a Time in America. But it seems like any new disc I put in I have this issue. Or maybe if I don't play a movie for a while it will do this. It does stop after I get through the initial couple tries though.

I think I'll just pick up a cheap Insignia blu ray player.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #6 of 59 Old 01-14-2011, 07:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bailey151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by russr View Post

I don't get any error in the XMB, it just doesn't even show the blu-ray in there. One last thing, once I get it working by loading/unloading the disc several times, it doesn't have an issue playing it ever again.

Same symptoms I had w/ my fat40gb - when the laser was dying. I might have had that happen once with a slim - I attribute it to whatever crappy discs netflix aquires (are they simply retail w/o a box? or other?) I've never had the issue with a retail disc.

Given how cheap they are a standalone option isn't bad..............but then one looses the speed (have a standalone upstairs - damn that thing is slow)

It's just my opinion & it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
Bailey151 is online now  
post #7 of 59 Old 01-14-2011, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by RY35AN View Post

Most recently I had trouble playing Dances With Wolves and Once Upon a Time in America. But it seems like any new disc I put in I have this issue. Or maybe if I don't play a movie for a while it will do this. It does stop after I get through the initial couple tries though.

I think I'll just pick up a cheap Insignia blu ray player.

Ryan, are you experiencing this with Netflix blu-ray discs or your own retail ones? It used to be that Netflix discs were the same as retail just w/o the box, but it seems that these days Netflix (and maybe all rentals) get a special rental disc. I know for Inception and Toy Story 3 it actually had a marking on there saying rental and it didn't have as many or had no special features.

I don't buy blu-rays so it's very difficult for me to say whether retail discs do it as well, so curious to know if the ones you had were retail or not.
russr is offline  
post #8 of 59 Old 01-14-2011, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You know, I don't recall having any problems with rental discs specifically. It seems like the biggest offender for me are the new retail discs.

If the laser was on it's way out wouldn't that affect the games also? I have never had a problem loading a game disc.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #9 of 59 Old 01-14-2011, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by RY35AN View Post
You know, I don't recall having any problems with rental discs specifically. It seems like the biggest offender for me are the new retail discs.

If the laser was on it's way out wouldn't that affect the games also? I have never had a problem loading a game disc.
Probably because in most cases a rental disc isn't brand new and has already been used by a handful of people. But there goes my theory that it is Netflix rental discs that have the issue. It's so strange that it's brand new discs that make the PS3 act like this. I thought it might be because the discs were cold since I sometimes bring them in from the mailbox and stick them straight in the PS3, but that is really unlikely. Next time it happens, try putting the disc over the heating vent for a minute and see if it fixes it.

I wonder if Sony would be helpful if we contacted them...I seriously doubt it. Anyone have any suggestions on what we can do?
russr is offline  
post #10 of 59 Old 01-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Member
 
jordanb450's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I recently discovered this problem with my 120gb Slim...only one movie so far. "Zach and Miri" stops at a pink loading screen. Thinking it really was loading, I waited for 10 minutes before I gave up. I tried again four or five times before giving up completely. I purchased the BluRay new from ))Mart for $8.
jordanb450 is offline  
post #11 of 59 Old 01-15-2011, 11:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Something's not right that's for sure.

My confusion is; if it was related to the laser then wouldn't we be experiencing this with games also?

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #12 of 59 Old 01-17-2011, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanb450 View Post

I recently discovered this problem with my 120gb Slim...only one movie so far. "Zach and Miri" stops at a pink loading screen. Thinking it really was loading, I waited for 10 minutes before I gave up. I tried again four or five times before giving up completely. I purchased the BluRay new from ))Mart for $8.

This sounds like a different problem because your PS3 got further than ours. The problem we're describing prevents the PS3 from even showing the disc in the XMB, meaning it can't even read it.

Yesterday I tried out the A-Team movie on BD. It was a disc from Netflix and as far as I could tell it was brand new as the disc surface looked flawless. I expected the PS3 to choke up as described, but it played the BD flawlessly. I wonder if certain BDs aren't manufactured quite to spec and the PS3 is more sensitive to this?
russr is offline  
post #13 of 59 Old 01-17-2011, 01:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
LOL, again, I have the same exact experience. Not all BD's have this issue when I load them. I went to watch Once Upon a Time in America last night and it did it again then after a minute or so it showed up on the XMB. I'm not always that lucky. Usually it take me ejecting and reloading anywhere from 5-10 times before it shows up.

Again; with games no issues whatsoever

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #14 of 59 Old 01-17-2011, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Ryan, when did you buy your PS3 slim? I have 120GB version and I bought it in December 2009. So mine is about 1 year old. The first disc I had this problem with was the Bourne Ultimatum. It happened last Spring I think. Since then I've had an issue with Toy Story 3 and Inception.
russr is offline  
post #15 of 59 Old 01-17-2011, 03:43 PM
Senior Member
 
barb1978's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by russr View Post
So I'm having a really strange problem with my PS3 Slim 120GB. It plays blu-ray games w/o issues, but every now and then when I get a blu-ray from Netflix, it has trouble loading the disc. I put the disc in, it starts spinning, then stops and makes the eject noise and starts spinning again only to stop once more. At this point, the blu-ray doesn't show in the XMB. I have to remove it and repeat the process anywhere from 5-10 times before it works.

I know what you're thinking...probably a bad/scratched/cracked disc from Netflix, but here's the deal, it's always happened when I've received a brand new disc from them. The discs have never been played and have no scratches, smudges or cracks on them.

So far it has happened on The Bourne Ultimatum, Toy Story 3 and just yesterday with Inception. And again, they were all brand new discs from Netflix.

I always have the latest firmware and I have no issues with games or other blu-rays...just these brand new discs.

It's really interesting because it tries to load it, fails, makes and eject type noise where I assume it is trying to reload it and then fails again.

I don't get any error in the XMB, it just doesn't even show the blu-ray in there. One last thing, once I get it working by loading/unloading the disc several times, it doesn't have an issue playing it ever again.
I'm wondering if this is a "slim/fat" problem or a problem from a firmware update? I never had this happen to my 80gb PS3 fat, until I downloaded a recent (sometime after summer of 2010) firmware upgrade. Ever since it has happened. And it's exactly as you described.
barb1978 is offline  
post #16 of 59 Old 01-17-2011, 03:47 PM
Senior Member
 
barb1978's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by russr View Post
Ryan, are you experiencing this with Netflix blu-ray discs or your own retail ones? It used to be that Netflix discs were the same as retail just w/o the box, but it seems that these days Netflix (and maybe all rentals) get a special rental disc. I know for Inception and Toy Story 3 it actually had a marking on there saying rental and it didn't have as many or had no special features.

I don't buy blu-rays so it's very difficult for me to say whether retail discs do it as well, so curious to know if the ones you had were retail or not.
I can answer that directly for one of the movies you're having problems with: Toy Story 3. The Netflix rental did exactly what yours did. I went and rented another from Blockbuster (also a "rental" disc) and it did the same thing. I received the retail disc for Christmas and it played without so much as a hiccup. I've finally given up and just use my stand-alone player for all rental discs.
barb1978 is offline  
post #17 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Barb, I thought this was just a slim problem. You've had the exact same behavior that ryan and I have had? If not, what are the differences you've had? Had this happened to you with anything besides toy story 3? I don't understand why the rental Toy Story 3 disc would have issues and the retail one wouldn't. Ryan seems to have issues with retail discs as well.
russr is offline  
post #18 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I wonder if there is some initial loading process that a BD has to go through when it's brand new? I don't get it...I stuck in a Netflix BD last night and it loaded up immediately. Then I put in my brand new Dances With Wolves and...loading, spinning, ejecting sounds, etc.. after removing and inserting the disc a few times it finally shows up.

It also seems like once I start using my PS3 for BD movies that the PS3 get's more accustomed to playing movies but if I go a while without playing them it "acts up"-----I know that sounds a little crazy but..that's all I've got.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #19 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Have any of you tried a BD lens cleaner? I wonder if this would help. I'm guessing not since we have no issues with games.
russr is offline  
post #20 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
No, I haven't tried that. I wasn't even aware it existed. But, like you said; no issues with games so who knows?

I'm willing to bet we're not the only ones experiencing this.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #21 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 02:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
garciab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Princeton, TX - USA
Posts: 1,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 31
May be a dumb question, but are you sure it isn't a problem with bd-live? Sounds like it's not since you don't get very far in the loading, but just thought I'd ask? Stranger things have happened.

bg
garciab is offline  
post #22 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

May be a dumb question, but are you sure it isn't a problem with bd-live? Sounds like it's not since you don't get very far in the loading, but just thought I'd ask? Stranger things have happened.

No it seems to be a more recognizing the BD and loading/reading it.

The BD-Live failures happen when the BD shows up in the XMB and you load it and then it hangs trying to do some BD Live crap.
russr is offline  
post #23 of 59 Old 01-18-2011, 10:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
BD live isn't the issue.

It's getting the PS3 to actually recognize a disc is there at all.

Once my PS3 "see's" thats a disc has been inserted it plays without issue. It's getting the damn thing to show up in the XMB so I can hit play.

I had a Best Buy extended warranty but cannot find the receipt to save my life. I would bring it back in heart beat even though that means me having to download everything again. And start my games all over (haven't figured out how to back up my data yet, I only have one external HDD and it's almost full with music, etc..)

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #24 of 59 Old 01-20-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by RY35AN View Post

BD live isn't the issue.

It's getting the PS3 to actually recognize a disc is there at all.

Once my PS3 "see's" thats a disc has been inserted it plays without issue. It's getting the damn thing to show up in the XMB so I can hit play.

I had a Best Buy extended warranty but cannot find the receipt to save my life. I would bring it back in heart beat even though that means me having to download everything again. And start my games all over (haven't figured out how to back up my data yet, I only have one external HDD and it's almost full with music, etc..)

They keep your records on file so you may be able to have them just look it up. I wouldn't bother with a warranty exchange as I don't think that we have bad units (although I guess it's possible we got a bad batch of units).
russr is offline  
post #25 of 59 Old 01-20-2011, 01:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
That may be too much trouble for me to go through since like you said our systems to work (at least for games) and will eventually load the BD.

Did you have this problem from the start?

Mine did not act this way when I first got it in fact maybe just in the last year.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
post #26 of 59 Old 01-20-2011, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by RY35AN View Post

That may be too much trouble for me to go through since like you said our systems to work (at least for games) and will eventually load the BD.

Did you have this problem from the start?

Mine did not act this way when I first got it in fact maybe just in the last year.

No, but it's not time based. I've only had it happen on 3 BDs total out of a much larger amount of BDs that I've watched. I suggest you try Redbox next time before you buy a movie and see if it works.
russr is offline  
post #27 of 59 Old 01-20-2011, 01:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
This sounds like the classic behavior of a laser entering the final stretch of its lifespan, unfortunately. If many slim owners are experiencing this at this point, it suggests that possibly Sony's bluray lasers are not much more robust than the early ones.

The behavior will deteriorate further over time, until one day it decides to read nothing you put in the slot. Potentially, this may coincide with a recent firmware update, but maybe that was more a property of older machines than the latest generation of ps3's.

Of course, some bluray movie titles are just plain stubborn, even if they are in pristine condition (most likely older release titles). For instance, my copy of Miami Vice has never played through w/o a hitch in the very same spot on my dedicated Sony br player, and I was sure to run the latest downloadable update on it.

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is offline  
post #28 of 59 Old 01-20-2011, 06:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
newfmp3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NFLD, Canada
Posts: 4,014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 138
I will say it again, I want the ability to install my games to my hd so my laser lasts longer. It has worked wonders on the 360
newfmp3 is offline  
post #29 of 59 Old 01-21-2011, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
russr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

This sounds like the classic behavior of a laser entering the final stretch of its lifespan, unfortunately. If many slim owners are experiencing this at this point, it suggests that possibly Sony's bluray lasers are not much more robust than the early ones.

The behavior will deteriorate further over time, until one day it decides to read nothing you put in the slot. Potentially, this may coincide with a recent firmware update, but maybe that was more a property of older machines than the latest generation of ps3's.

Of course, some bluray movie titles are just plain stubborn, even if they are in pristine condition (most likely older release titles). For instance, my copy of Miami Vice has never played through w/o a hitch in the very same spot on my dedicated Sony br player, and I was sure to run the latest downloadable update on it.

I really do not think it is signs of the laser failing. A laser failing would mean that it would behave like this for all titles including games. This happens only on a small percentage of BDs so I think it's more that there's some spec in certain BDs that doesn't agree with the PS3. If you look over the details of folks who have this problem, I think that's very clear.

For me this happened when my PS3 wasn't even a couple of months old with the Bourne Ultimatum disc.
russr is offline  
post #30 of 59 Old 01-21-2011, 10:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RY35AN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, I have my doubts about it being related to the laser. Like Russr said my games play fine, not one issue when it comes to reading games.

And not all BD's have this issue either.

XBOX 360-RY35AN
PS3-RY35AN
RY35AN is offline  
Reply PlayStation Area

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off