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post #631 of 1994 Old 06-20-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tgable View Post

They used split memory, the same model every PC with a discrete GPU has ever used. How is it weird?

Thought I read there was something weird in how memory was distributed/allocated to the individual SPE's, but I'll grant it's been a while since I read about the cell. Either way it seems the technology is a dead end as far as IBM is concerned. Are Toshiba and Sony still supporting it?
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post #632 of 1994 Old 06-20-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Regarding the 4K talk, it really won't be a big whoop for Sony to include it and it has been mentioned in several different rumors over the last year or so. It isn't as if it would add any significant cost to the machine.
But as far as its purpose goes in the PS4, it will naturally synch up with the future wave of 4K HDTVs that are coming as well as higher rez Blu-ray movies (like 1080P in 3D. So, there are some benefits that are not obvious. I posted earlier in this thread how 4K allows for the ability to zoom in on hi-res textures without distortion in some applications, and that it allows for 1080P in 3D gaming.
I don't believe I've seen anyone suggesting 4K resolution games are on the way; 720P/1080P will be the target resolution of PS4 titles.

I could see something like a Super Stardust SuperHD at 4K, but regular games, yeah, 1080P.

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post #633 of 1994 Old 06-20-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Thought I read there was something weird in how memory was distributed/allocated to the individual SPE's, but I'll grant it's been a while since I read about the cell. Either way it seems the technology is a dead end as far as IBM is concerned. Are Toshiba and Sony still supporting it?

Toshiba is putting it in their TVs, so it's still being used. It's just not being developed as a high-performance computing device.
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post #634 of 1994 Old 06-20-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Toshiba is putting it in their TVs, so it's still being used. It's just not being developed as a high-performance computing device.

Toshiba has bee saying this since 2006. They even announced The ZX900 in Jan 2010 to be released that year which was the last time the cell was mentioned and expected to retail for $11,000 at the time. Nothing in 2 1/2 years indicates what they are doing with the Cell.

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post #635 of 1994 Old 06-21-2012, 04:44 PM
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I wonder just how much a PS3 chip would cost to add to the PS4?

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post #636 of 1994 Old 06-22-2012, 10:09 AM
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ChipS with an S, and the required circuitry to make them work.
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post #637 of 1994 Old 06-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I wonder just how much a PS3 chip would cost to add to the PS4?

A Cell or RSX? Either way, even if it is $10 it would cost Sony hundreds of millions to add. They will either struggle with emulation or just drop BC.

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post #638 of 1994 Old 06-22-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tgable View Post

A Cell or RSX? Either way, even if it is $10 it would cost Sony hundreds of millions to add. They will either struggle with emulation or just drop BC.

Didn't they combine them onto one chip some time ago? Either way it is needed for the PS4 even if it is optional, if everything that people have bought digitally is suddenly unusable on the new hardware, people would not be happy. An optional add on is the safest bet for a profitable PS4. Even if an addon usually fails, offering it from day one and including it with a top tier console bundle for those who want it is one of the few options for Sony at this point.

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post #639 of 1994 Old 06-22-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Didn't they combine them onto one chip some time ago? Either way it is needed for the PS4 even if it is optional, if everything that people have bought digitally is suddenly unusable on the new hardware, people would not be happy. An optional add on is the safest bet for a profitable PS4. Even if an addon usually fails, offering it from day one and including it with a top tier console bundle for those who want it is one of the few options for Sony at this point.

That is the worst kind of thinking for a company to have. Especially a company that already tried this with the PS3. Sony is going to probably be a lot more conservative than they were with the PS3. They threw everything in and within a few years to save on money they had to cut stuff out. I don't think BC is as important as everyone likes to make it out to be. I have a PS3 and when I get a Ps4 my focus will be on games made for it. BC is the equivalent issue that is going on with Vita in the same sense that no one is choosing the Vita versions over the PS3.

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post #640 of 1994 Old 06-24-2012, 12:07 AM
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Personally I think there is a very good chance that we won't see PS3 backward compatibility in the PS4. Considering that Sony gradually removed PS2 backward compatibility from the PS3 (which they got a lot of negative press from doing) it looks like they decided that backward compatibility doesn't make sense when it is expensive to include in a game console.
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post #641 of 1994 Old 06-24-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Personally I think there is a very good chance that we won't see PS3 backward compatibility in the PS4. Considering that Sony gradually removed PS2 backward compatibility from the PS3 (which they got a lot of negative press from doing) it looks like they decided that backward compatibility doesn't make sense when it is expensive to include in a game console.
Pretty much. They realized it's the kind of thing that gamers and the press makes a lot of noise about early on, but then everyone just sort of forgets about it. But if Sony plays it right, they'll include BC for their PSN titles since many of those continue to sell well past their launch period. The difference between PSN BC and disc-based BC is that Sony and publishers would still make money off of PSN BC, but not off of disc-based BC.

That said, I used the hell out of my PS2 BC on my PS3, but that's because I bought my PS2 rather late in its cycle, so I had a lot of great PS2 games still to play. But I bought all of those PS2 games used for pennies.

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post #642 of 1994 Old 06-25-2012, 01:27 PM
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I think it's different now because people have been downloading, saving, and interacting with servers for years. People expect that stuff to last. When iCloud came out I saw a bunch of iTunes purchases from like, 2004, I completely forgot about. They weren't even on my iPod. Likewise every time I load Steam on a new comp I can download Half-Life 2, which I spent $30 on in 2005.

I think people will expect to play Pixeljunk, WipeOut HD, etc., basically into perpetuity. It's part of the deal these companies are selling with online services.
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post #643 of 1994 Old 06-25-2012, 08:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

I think it's different now because people have been downloading, saving, and interacting with servers for years. People expect that stuff to last. When iCloud came out I saw a bunch of iTunes purchases from like, 2004, I completely forgot about. They weren't even on my iPod. Likewise every time I load Steam on a new comp I can download Half-Life 2, which I spent $30 on in 2005.
I think people will expect to play Pixeljunk, WipeOut HD, etc., basically into perpetuity. It's part of the deal these companies are selling with online services.

And there's going to be hell to pay if all of a sudden they don't work. Sony and MS opened that can of worms, they need to follow through.

Otherwise, I'm out. And I suspect a lot of other customers who feel burned will be too.
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post #644 of 1994 Old 06-25-2012, 09:13 PM
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Flower is the only game I've ever downloaded. It's different from any other game I've played and still fire it up on rare occasions. I'd still much rather be able to still play the games I payed good money (much more) for on a new console. I don't buy games often but think its rediculous that I'd have to hold on to my 60g fat to play ps3 games. I want to play uc series, SSX, or hell, even Bionic commando. All games I bought because I loved the originals. Nintendo made it possible to play originals games on the wii. Why can't Sony do the same?
I want one console to rule them all. One console to play them.
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post #645 of 1994 Old 06-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Flower is the only game I've ever downloaded. It's different from any other game I've played and still fire it up on rare occasions. I'd still much rather be able to still play the games I payed good money (much more) for on a new console. I don't buy games often but think its rediculous that I'd have to hold on to my 60g fat to play ps3 games. I want to play uc series, SSX, or hell, even Bionic commando. All games I bought because I loved the originals. Nintendo made it possible to play originals games on the wii. Why can't Sony do the same?
I want one console to rule them all. One console to play them.
No manufacturer has had a good record with BC. The current generation is the first time it's been such a big issue (and much of a possibility). Sony's financial folks learned what most of us suspected anyways: the vast majority of people don't replay old games. They may say they want to, but when it comes down to it, they never do. Folks like us might, but we constitute a fraction of a percentage point of Sony's total consumer base. Sony also learned that it doesn't hurt their bottom line any to cut out BC. And, even better, Sony learned that they can release old material as "upgraded" versions that they can muster up added interest in, and sell at a profit.

In other words, don't expect BC for disc-based games. The question remains open for PSN titles. Judging by what's been happening with the Vita, I expect we'll see "many" PSN titles supported on the PS4, but not "all."

And if you truly want "One console to rule them all. One console to play them," you'll need to do your own backups and play them on a PC with an emulator. And that's likely how it will always be.

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post #646 of 1994 Old 06-26-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

No manufacturer has had a good record with BC. The current generation is the first time it's been such a big issue (and much of a possibility). Sony's financial folks learned what most of us suspected anyways: the vast majority of people don't replay old games. They may say they want to, but when it comes down to it, they never do. Folks like us might, but we constitute a fraction of a percentage point of Sony's total consumer base. Sony also learned that it doesn't hurt their bottom line any to cut out BC. And, even better, Sony learned that they can release old material as "upgraded" versions that they can muster up added interest in, and sell at a profit.
In other words, don't expect BC for disc-based games. The question remains open for PSN titles. Judging by what's been happening with the Vita, I expect we'll see "many" PSN titles supported on the PS4, but not "all."
And if you truly want "One console to rule them all. One console to play them," you'll need to do your own backups and play them on a PC with an emulator. And that's likely how it will always be.

Touché
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post #647 of 1994 Old 10-09-2012, 01:10 PM
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I think it's funny that we've heard so much around the PS4 not using the Power CPU family, how it's no longer good enough for game consoles, but now the Wii U is using it. smile.gif
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post #648 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 03:25 AM
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I think it's funny that we've heard so much around the PS4 not using the Power CPU family, how it's no longer good enough for game consoles, but now the Wii U is using it. smile.gif

The Gamecube, Wii, 360, and Wii U all use Power CPUs.

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post #649 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 10:58 AM
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Everyone assumes they are moving _up_ in hardware...

but I'm going to speculate they'll be going with a CPU that's more compatible with a mobile CPU.

Like an ARM processor.

That will make porting easier, and we all know, one day the mobile phone and the gaming console will be the same thing.
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post #650 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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Everyone assumes they are moving _up_ in hardware...
but I'm going to speculate they'll be going with a CPU that's more compatible with a mobile CPU.
Like an ARM processor.
That will make porting easier, and we all know, one day the mobile phone and the gaming console will be the same thing.

I think the companies that make that mistake will be the ones who fail. Lots of people want a higher quality gaming experience than mobile can offer. Lots of people aren't even interested in a mobile gaming experience. Sure, the potential pool of customers for a cheap, easily, accessible gaming experience is higher, but I think the Wii experiment has shown that those who buy into a low quality gaming experience because of the novelty and low cost of entry, are not the same market that buys a large amount of software over the life of the system.

I'm not saying there isn't money to be made in mobile. I'm saying it's a different enough market that it doesn't preclude a market for a high quality home gaming experience.

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post #651 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 11:55 AM
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What people want and what companies can afford to make are two different things.

Not saying that Sony and MS will go with mobile architectures, but I also don't expect to be blown away tech-wise.

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post #652 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Everyone assumes they are moving _up_ in hardware...
but I'm going to speculate they'll be going with a CPU that's more compatible with a mobile CPU.
Like an ARM processor.
That will make porting easier, and we all know, one day the mobile phone and the gaming console will be the same thing.

I don't think there's any question that MS/Sony will be offering something that outclasses the WiiU. Not at all.

The question is most likely how much. I'm guessing something that would run PC class BF3 at 60FPS1080P native, with maybe a bit better shader support. But my guess is that is it. It's technically a pretty large jump from current consoles including the WiiU, but not current tech.

We won't be seeing the jump beyond PC specs / way beyond the last consoles this time. They're going to want to keep these units under $500 this time, they're going to focus on better running games at high visuals, and more on services since the hardware will be the closest yet.
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post #653 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 12:23 PM
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I'd take better games over better running most of the time. Gears of Duty 6 doesn't pump my nads.
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post #654 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The Gamecube, Wii, 360, and Wii U all use Power CPUs.

And exactly one of those is a new console. That's my point. I've read over and over that the Power CPU family was going away in game consoles, but now we know it's not true.
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post #655 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

What people want and what companies can afford to make are two different things.
Not saying that Sony and MS will go with mobile architectures, but I also don't expect to be blown away tech-wise.

Ahh.. but can they afford to make something that people don't want?

Just kidding around. Some people want the world of course, and they want it for cheap. I just don't think it will be so bad as to go down the mobile architecture route.

Enjoying BF4 on the PS4, bugs and all.
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post #656 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 03:28 PM
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Some people want the world of course, and they want it for cheap.
Exactly. Which is how we ended up with cheaply made consoles prone to failure this console cycle. Ended up costing hardware companies more in the long run (especially MS). Manufacturers are going to be much more reserved this time around. What we'll get in the next cycle are modest processor upgrades filled out with additional media/online features that make consoles feel more tech-forward than they actually are.

And, you're right, there's no way they're going with mobile tech. That's nonsense. Ouya will be the guinea pig for that market. I'm sure everyone's curious to see how well it does--in terms of both software support and sales. And at a mere $100, I'm willing to take a risk on buying one myself if the software's there.

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post #657 of 1994 Old 10-10-2012, 08:09 PM
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This is kinda off topic, but rather than starting a new thread I'd thought I'd ask it here.

I was listening to a podcast today, and they were talking about how the new super slim PS3 is actually having an increase in it's price. I guess the regular PS3 slim is $249, and the new slim is in some special bundle that is $269.99 or something like that. The guys on the podcast seemed to agree that the price of this super slim pretty much guarantees that there won't be a PS4 in 2013. The thinking, being that normally any time a new console is about to come out, the previous console is selling for $199 or even less. The fact that the new super slim isn't $199, and is in fact priced higher than the previous slim, is confirmation (at least to them), that the PS4 is farther away than first anticipated.

I haven't really been keeping up with things, so I have no idea how valid or off-base that line of thinking is. Do you guys think there is zero chance of a PS4 in 2013 in the USA ? That's the way these guys made it seem.
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post #658 of 1994 Old 10-11-2012, 08:59 AM
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On the first point, yes, as was pointed out in the Super Slim thread, the new PS3 is in fact more expensive than the old one. There are many possible explanations for this, primary among them the fact that Sony is in dire need of cash, and it also suggests that the prior Slim version is still out there in huge numbers. I heard at least one rumor saying that Sony was originally set to announce the Super Slim at Gamescom rather than TGS, but there were still too many Slim models in the marketplace. The bundle and price increase is likely a response to this. The backup in retail could also be why Sony isn't releasing the 16GB model outside of Europe.

On the second point, I don't think that's necessarily true. Once the current Slim stock sells through at retail (probably over the holidays), then we'll probably see an immediate drop in the Super Slim's price. Could be as low as $199. Even more likely once they release the 16GB model in North America. Could be something they time with the big release schedule for March 2013. Price drop in late Feb?

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post #659 of 1994 Old 10-11-2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

This is kinda off topic, but rather than starting a new thread I'd thought I'd ask it here.

I was listening to a podcast today, and they were talking about how the new super slim PS3 is actually having an increase in it's price. I guess the regular PS3 slim is $249, and the new slim is in some special bundle that is $269.99 or something like that. The guys on the podcast seemed to agree that the price of this super slim pretty much guarantees that there won't be a PS4 in 2013. The thinking, being that normally any time a new console is about to come out, the previous console is selling for $199 or even less. The fact that the new super slim isn't $199, and is in fact priced higher than the previous slim, is confirmation (at least to them), that the PS4 is farther away than first anticipated.

I haven't really been keeping up with things, so I have no idea how valid or off-base that line of thinking is. Do you guys think there is zero chance of a PS4 in 2013 in the USA ? That's the way these guys made it seem.

I think it's 100% that we're getting a new Xbox next year, but the PS4 seems 50/50 to me. There's so many rumors and leaks for the nextbox, getting very specific about manufacturing delays etc - but theres been comparatively so much less chatter surrounding the PS4.

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post #660 of 1994 Old 10-11-2012, 09:14 AM
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The thinking, being that normally any time a new console is about to come out, the previous console is selling for $199 or even less.
Also, by this logic, we would have seen a new Xbox years ago because it's been selling for $199 since 2009.
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I think it's 100% that we're getting a new Xbox next year, but the PS4 seems 50/50 to me. There's so many rumors and leaks for the nextbox, getting very specific about manufacturing delays etc - but theres been comparatively so much less chatter surrounding the PS4.
Sounds reasonable. And I'll temper the doom-and-gloom somewhat, but it's worth keeping in mind that Sony, as a whole, isn't doing great, and their games division is in the midst of some rocky times. That puts a lot about the next gen in question. They could put increased emphasis on their media publishing (movies, music, games) in the coming years.

EDIT: Just saw news that PS3 titles are showing up on Gaikai's site. Could be a sign that Sony's gearing up for a console-like version of their PS Mobile service. Could Gaikai and PS Mobile be Sony's "nuclear option"?

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