PlayStation Meeting 2013 (PS4 unveiling - conference replay in first post) - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post


Nintendo really did change the game; showing that you can be hugely profitable, without being the most powerful, .

No doubt about that, but I can't see that happening again. They had a unique product, something nobody seen before. But, ask anyone with a Wii that's been collecting dust for 2 years...we will be skeptical about even purchasing another Nintendo console.

On the flip side, Sony paid dearly for having the most expensive console at launch due to it being so cutting edge. But look at it now, the fact that it's just a bit more powerful then the xbox is about the only reason why its doing so good now.

So, I'm in agreement with you....but it's a double edged sword isn't it.
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post #152 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 12:16 PM
 
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Yup, I don't think Nintendo's one hit wonder will work again because it was a gimmick. It became the must have toy, 2 seasons straight. Not a console, but a toy.

But, I do think there's some truth to it. Indy gaming is exploding on the PC, and PSN ain't doing so bad on the PS3. I think the way forward is figuring out a way to design a console to do a broader range of games and media, as a closed system. You don't need brute force DX15 GFX, if you can bring other interesting things to the table.

Honestly, if the PS3 could do all my games at 1080P/60 without a hitch currently, I really wouldn't be looking.

I've seen BF3 on my brothers spec'd out PC. It's beautiful, but it cost him a gaming rig for what essentially is the same game code.
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post #153 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Well, it'll handle 4K if only to display movie files at that resolution that are obviously on the way since filmmakers are starting to use 4K cameras and starting this year manufacturers are releasing 4K and 8K resolution HDTVs. Sony's even releasing a new Blu-ray player this year that upscales 1080P movies to 4K, so a 4K PS4 is pretty much given. Article on 4K status:

I doubt the PS4 pushes it as much of a feature as DVD and Blu-ray were since there would be no discernible difference from 1080P on most people's HDTVs. In fact, most people can barely distinguish between 720P and 1080P because you have to sit no more than 7-feet on a 50-inch set to notice one is more detailed than the other. Sure, you would see a difference between 1080P and 4K on your 85-inch screen, but...

Whatever the main features of the PS4 are, a tech upgrade like this will be more like the icing on the cake as opposed to its major focus.

4K will become the standard, but it's going to be a long time coming for conversion. The industry thinks this is their answer to the rapid price decreases of first 1080, then 120hz, then 3d, ect et al. They're wrong.

I still know people who can't tell (care?) between the difference of 720 and SD. I'm going to be 90% of the population will not be able to see 1080 for 4-8K. They aren't going to jump on the wagon, only replace whats broke with something affordable when that time comes.
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post #154 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 12:38 PM
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Currently my main viewing TV is only a 46" 1080p. I had a very small living room before moving to this house, and 46" was sufficient. Also, back then my 46 cost $2250, prices have come down!

On my current set, from 9' away, I can easily tell DVD from 720p. But I can only barely, if at all, tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. I may regret it when I get my PJ, but I have ripped all my BDs to my server at 720p since I can't tell the difference.

I'm with you Tyrant, 4k is not on my wish list.
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post #155 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 12:53 PM
 
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Oh, it's on my wish list. But so is a trip to space and winning the lottery. It's not a purchase I see in the near future at all, because it's just not needed from a practice stand point, even if the tech geek in my wants it.

I would probably be able to see a difference if I upgraded to a comparable TV (70" SXRD XBR2), but like you said I'd really question it for others. The differences up to 50" are going to be negligible to most people, and truth be told most people scoff at going to sizes above that.

Razr slim and headset-less 3D will be the bigger trends IMO that would sell upgrades.

As for you, start going lossless! bite are cheap and I'm sure you could make a pretty cheap server farm to start going to lossless encodes.

Thats my next project sometime in the next few years.
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post #156 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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Actually hard drives are pricey right now (Taiwan flooding). I currently have 4gb on my server, and it is plenty for the time being.

We have decided on the Epson 5010 PJ, but will probably never use it in 3D. Might even go for a bargain on the older 8500 because 3D isn't a must-have for us.

To keep it relevant, gaming stinks on our 46" at the distance we have it at. Looking forward to having the PS3 on a 106" screen.
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post #157 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Sure, you would see a difference between 1080P and 4K on your 85-inch screen, but...

Not really. Even at that screen size, the average person needs to sit at about 5' to get a real benefit from it according to SMPTE and THX... ...but then, I'm sure everyone here has better eyesight than the average person.

Honestly though, could we get a few more polygons on the models, so shoulders look round instead of pentigonal, before we worry about pumping out bajillions of pixels?

Or better yet, give me a lower resolution with better filering so edges of contrasting colors don't look like crap.

-Suntan
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post #158 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

...but then, I'm sure everyone here has better eyesight than the average person.

I love it!

Then again, half the people in the world are below average
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post #159 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

Not really. Even at that screen size, the average person needs to sit at about 5' to get a real benefit from it according to SMPTE and THX... ...but then, I'm sure everyone here has better eyesight than the average person.

Honestly though, could we get a few more polygons on the models, so shoulders look round instead of pentigonal, before we worry about pumping out bajillions of pixels?

Or better yet, give me a lower resolution with better filering so edges of contrasting colors don't look like crap.

-Suntan

The difference between 1080P and 4K on a 85-inch HDTV can be discerned at 10-feet away or less. The optimal sitting distance for 4K on that same HDTV is 6-feet away. I figure that if a person REALLY wants to take advantage of 4K's benefits cheaply, 85-inches is the smallest size that they should consider. I am not that person.

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post #160 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

The difference between 1080P and 4K on a 85-inch HDTV can be discerned at 10-feet away or less. The optimal sitting distance for 4K on that same HDTV is 6-feet away. I figure that if a person REALLY wants to take advantage of 4K's benefits cheaply, 85-inches is the smallest size that they should consider. I am not that person.

"Starts to become noticeable" is not worth arguing over.

In any case, if a person wants 4K resolution video games, they should be building themselves a $4000 gaming PC. Consoles have always been about appealing to the average person and 4K is such massive overkill for the average person that it would be silly for Sony to try it.

For reference, at this point last generation (two or three years before release,) people were already watching shows broadcast at 1080x1920 and could own movies released in HD as well. Blu Ray had been formalized for a couple of years and the Blu ray/HDDVD battle was in full swing when the console was eventually released.

To my knowledge, there's been no talk of a consumer release of any 4K format to date.

In any case, BR is really overkill to most people (although they don't know it) and 4K would just be a complete marketing driven let down when they get it home and realize that it looks no different than BR in their livingrooms.

-Suntan
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post #161 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Like I said above, I doubt a lot will be made of it in promotions like we saw with Blu-ray. The technology is just going through a natural progression, and it isn't a big deal tech-wise to go from selling a 1080P machine to a 4K machine just like it wasn't a big deal for DVD players to start adding the upscale feature that they almost all have now, or for HDTVs to go from 720P to the eventual 1080P standard.

I agree that it isn't a game changer, but it also doesn't really detract from anything either. 4K movies are being shot, Blu-ray players upscaling to 4K as well as 4K/8K HDTVs are going on sale this year. The PS4 having at well is just following a natural progression of the A/V industry, and I doubt it requires significant resources to include it so they'll just toss it in with the rest of the new features.

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post #162 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 05:46 PM
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Forgive my ignorance

So after these 4k tvs come out , the bluray movies that are out now will be re-release in 4k?

I just started collecting blurays
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post #163 of 1994 Old 01-13-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TatorTot View Post

Forgive my ignorance

So after these 4k tvs come out , the bluray movies that are out now will be re-release in 4k?

I just started collecting blurays

Every media format gets outdated sometime. But the Bluray format's biggest threat right now is being relegated to the high-tech niche. Most consumers are opting for lossy streaming formats instead. Similar to what happened in the backward transition from vinyl to cassette, or film to vhs. Convenience is king.

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post #164 of 1994 Old 01-14-2012, 04:48 AM
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At least they were already fooling around with 4K gaming for a while now.
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/19/pf...ogue-in-2160p/
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post #165 of 1994 Old 01-14-2012, 06:41 PM
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What do I want in a PS4?

Mouse/Keyboard capability for FPS.

As strange as this sounds I think you will see the PS4 and the new Xbox looking to appeal to a "maturing" crowd who care more about game play, interface, and less about resolution, video quality, etc.

20 years ago when I was playing video games you'd be hard pressed to find people much older who were really into gaming.

I'll be 40 next summer and there is a whole new age group for gaming. I care much more about content and the game being interesting them blowing something up, again.

I think a large majority of people despise analog controllers for FPS, Sony can really attack Windows gaming by bringing native mouse/keyboard support.

I also think you will see a huge leap in interface, Kinect 2 I'm expecting to be a massive improvement and I think the next place Sony needs to go with Move is wearable Move like a glove or something similar with sensors in each finger for greater control.
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post #166 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly View Post

What do I want in a PS4?

Mouse/Keyboard capability for FPS.

...

I think a large majority of people despise analog controllers for FPS, Sony can really attack Windows gaming by bringing native mouse/keyboard support.

Already quite possible and it works well with PS3. It just didn't really set the world on fire and devs haven't taken advantage of the capability.
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post #167 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 01:46 AM
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Regarding the earlier discussion of RAM expansion, it's probably too late but I really wish that Sony had tried a half-step upgrade, call it the PS3X or something.

Maybe they could still drop it out this summer, a month after E3 or so. Imagine this and see what you think:

- They announce Playstation 3X during their E3 keynote, slightly upgraded and remodeled
- SuperCell, 2 PPUs and 12-16 SPUs or so
- Maybe a slight clock bump (although 3.2 GHz is already pretty hot)
- Bit-compatible NVIDIA card that supercedes RSX, ~768 MB of video RAM and improved bandwidth across the board
- 1 GB or so of system RAM
- 4x or 6x Blu-ray
- All current PS3 games are certified and 99% backwards compatibility is engineered in
- $450, available next month! (Crowd oohs and aahs)

Now, to make it commercially viable, you also say:

- Regular PS3 support continues with no change
- No games will be certified for 3X unless they also run at a reasonable level on regular PS3, "reasonable" determined by Sony QA
- Above policy in place for 12 (or maybe 18) months following the release of the 3X (and then devs can target the 3X only)

Desired results:

- Smaller devs without a lot of resources (PSN, etc.) just continue to make PS3 games and no additional cost save maybe the extra hassle of doing QA on the 3X
- Same with bigger devs that just don't care (Activision, etc.)
- Sony 1st/2nd party and other ambitious multi-plat devs release games with full PS3 support & also code their engine to run with better resolution and/or framerate and/or shaders, etc. on the 3X
- Current PS3 games with variable framerate run better with no additional tuning (think GT5)
- The system has equal or better specs than WiiU and crushes it in existing software library, beats MS to the punch to next gen, and requires a fraction of the R&D that a normal new console launch does

Drawbacks:

- Maintaining two console platforms going forward has lots of extra cost for Sony
- MS could over-engineer their next-gen offering and leapfrog the specs by quite a bit as quickly as a year later
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post #168 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 04:57 AM
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i would love Sony to include the "Other OS" feature in the PS4 and take it OUT later in a year or so i never cared for the OTHER OS feature and i thought the whole situation with the court/lawsuit was funny.
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post #169 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metsuke View Post

Regarding the earlier discussion of RAM expansion, it's probably too late but I really wish that Sony had tried a half-step upgrade, call it the PS3X or something.

Maybe they could still drop it out this summer, a month after E3 or so. Imagine this and see what you think:

- They announce Playstation 3X during their E3 keynote, slightly upgraded and remodeled
- SuperCell, 2 PPUs and 12-16 SPUs or so
- Maybe a slight clock bump (although 3.2 GHz is already pretty hot)
- Bit-compatible NVIDIA card that supercedes RSX, ~768 MB of video RAM and improved bandwidth across the board
- 1 GB or so of system RAM
- 4x or 6x Blu-ray
- All current PS3 games are certified and 99% backwards compatibility is engineered in
- $450, available next month! (Crowd oohs and aahs)

Now, to make it commercially viable, you also say:

- Regular PS3 support continues with no change
- No games will be certified for 3X unless they also run at a reasonable level on regular PS3, "reasonable" determined by Sony QA
- Above policy in place for 12 (or maybe 18) months following the release of the 3X (and then devs can target the 3X only)

Desired results:

- Smaller devs without a lot of resources (PSN, etc.) just continue to make PS3 games and no additional cost save maybe the extra hassle of doing QA on the 3X
- Same with bigger devs that just don't care (Activision, etc.)
- Sony 1st/2nd party and other ambitious multi-plat devs release games with full PS3 support & also code their engine to run with better resolution and/or framerate and/or shaders, etc. on the 3X
- Current PS3 games with variable framerate run better with no additional tuning (think GT5)
- The system has equal or better specs than WiiU and crushes it in existing software library, beats MS to the punch to next gen, and requires a fraction of the R&D that a normal new console launch does

Drawbacks:

- Maintaining two console platforms going forward has lots of extra cost for Sony
- MS could over-engineer their next-gen offering and leapfrog the specs by quite a bit as quickly as a year later

I think they may have been able to get away with something like this a few years ago but not now. It would be a very stupid decision on sony's part for exactly the last drawback you mentioned. They would spend umpteen million dollars putting out a half-assed upgrade while MS released its next gen and saved all that money in the process. This would've been like how Apple upgrades the 3G-3GS and 4G-4GS. These kinds of "upgrades" just irritate me from a consumer standpoint. We all know that only minor improvements have been made but everyone acts like they just reinvented sliced bread. With the ps3 obviously well past middle age I think doing so now would be pointless since the next gen could be out in a few years.
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post #170 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly View Post

What do I want in a PS4?

Mouse/Keyboard capability for FPS.

I think a large majority of people despise analog controllers for FPS, Sony can really attack Windows gaming by bringing native mouse/keyboard support.


I don't see this happening because of the way a majority of people play console games. Most are sitting in a chair or on a couch with controller in hand. Where are you going to put the mouse and keyboard? You would have to come up with a controller that is wireless, hand held and isn't too clunky. Not impossible but probably something that would be more niche than mainstream.
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post #171 of 1994 Old 01-15-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

I think they may have been able to get away with something like this a few years ago but not now. It would be a very stupid decision on sony's part for exactly the last drawback you mentioned. They would spend umpteen million dollars putting out a half-assed upgrade while MS released its next gen and saved all that money in the process.

That's essentially the route that Nintendo's taking. And they'll be outdated in two years or so. But they it won't matter to them. It worked for the Wii. And they'll still make bucket-loads of cash. Meanwhile, Sony and MS are still selling consoles at a healthy clip (sales are still growing for both consoles at their current price points), so they have no reason to make the expensive jump into the next gen yet. Even though both consoles have been selling at a profit for a while now, I don't think either one has recouped their total losses/investment yet. So no one's in a rush to go even deeper into the hole--unless one or the other pulls the trigger and forces them to do so.

Quote:


This would've been like how Apple upgrades the 3G-3GS and 4G-4GS. These kinds of "upgrades" just irritate me from a consumer standpoint. We all know that only minor improvements have been made but everyone acts like they just reinvented sliced bread. With the ps3 obviously well past middle age I think doing so now would be pointless since the next gen could be out in a few years.

Apple (and other mobile manufacturers) can afford to keep revising hardware because their hardware is subsidized by service providers. They can sell it at 1/3 or 1/2 of what it would ordinarily cost and still turn a profit. This lets them release new hardware much faster, sell it at well below cost, and continue to make money without interruption. It's a totally different model (and a much more profitable one). This is why it could be a real game changer if/when Apple finally announces its revised home unit. However, one of the big unknowns with the AppleTV (or iTV or whatever) is how they'll link the unit to a service provider. Home units don't need mobile service. And many people already have cable. And many cable plans are region specific. Sounds like a headache.

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post #172 of 1994 Old 01-16-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

I think they may have been able to get away with something like this a few years ago but not now. It would be a very stupid decision on sony's part for exactly the last drawback you mentioned. They would spend umpteen million dollars putting out a half-assed upgrade while MS released its next gen and saved all that money in the process. This would've been like how Apple upgrades the 3G-3GS and 4G-4GS. These kinds of "upgrades" just irritate me from a consumer standpoint. We all know that only minor improvements have been made but everyone acts like they just reinvented sliced bread. With the ps3 obviously well past middle age I think doing so now would be pointless since the next gen could be out in a few years.

Sure. Just to be clear, naming the system "3X" doesn't have to imply that it's a half-assed upgrade, just that it's based upon the existing architecture enough that it's bit-compatible.

For as much investment and pain that Sony went through with the Cell, it's not a given that a new chip based on the same architecture would be horribly under-powered compared to a modern blue-sky design. It was a really forward-looking chip for its time.

Further, they will certainly SAVE money by not making a radical departure from the current architecture. Anything blue-sky would certainly take more R&D, in addition to the expense of porting all the existing OS, PS Home, dev tools, etc. over.

So the trade-off would be: 1) Cheaper launch, 2) Out before the competition, 3) Somewhat less powerful (potentially)
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post #173 of 1994 Old 01-20-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TatorTot View Post

Forgive my ignorance

So after these 4k tvs come out , the bluray movies that are out now will be re-release in 4k?

I just started collecting blurays

the player will will be bluray also so you can satill play non 4k blu rays on it it
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post #174 of 1994 Old 01-20-2012, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Naughty Dog is hiring for a title that is very likely appearing on the next PlayStation console:

Quote:


Prior professional experience with normal map extraction of human models for next-gen games

It looks like they are going head-first into PS4 development.

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post #175 of 1994 Old 01-20-2012, 10:09 PM
 
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2-3 year Dev time means late 14 to early 15 for a console launch at the earliest.

Sometimes the transition takes a Dev 3-4 years, which would make this a post launch title. Thats assuming the kinks of Sonys prior hardware eccentricities show up like they have before.
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post #176 of 1994 Old 01-21-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

2-3 year Dev time means late 14 to early 15 for a console launch at the earliest.

Dev time ? Game makers use Sony's libraries.

If sony converts their current libraries to the new platform, things should be golden pretty fast.
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post #177 of 1994 Old 01-21-2012, 09:10 AM
 
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Dev time ? Game makers use Sony's libraries.

If sony converts their current libraries to the new platform, things should be golden pretty fast.

Thats assuming the architecture is very close to the same as we have now.

I'd hope Sony realizes the err of their ways, but every previous iteration has been drastically different from the last in terms of hardware. If the past hold true again, Dev's will need more time to retool their engines / build them from the ground up again.
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post #178 of 1994 Old 01-21-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Naughty Dog is hiring for a title that is very likely appearing on the next PlayStation console:


It looks like they are going head-first into PS4 development.

Inevitable. And this could be a long ways off. It took 3-4 years to get Uncharted out the door during the console transition, and it could be even longer depending on how (dis)similar the architecture is for the next console. If a more liberal guess of 3 years, we're looking at a 2015 release date. It's also possible that for the next gen, they'll want to regroup as much of the studio as possible--which means waiting for development on The Last of Us to draw to a close before moving into full production. I'm not sure that they've completely committed yet to a 2-team development cycle (a la Insomniac), but I could be wrong.

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post #179 of 1994 Old 01-22-2012, 05:10 PM
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Inevitable. And this could be a long ways off. It took 3-4 years to get Uncharted out the door during the console transition, and it could be even longer depending on how (dis)similar the architecture is for the next console. If a more liberal guess of 3 years, we're looking at a 2015 release date. It's also possible that for the next gen, they'll want to regroup as much of the studio as possible--which means waiting for development on The Last of Us to draw to a close before moving into full production. I'm not sure that they've completely committed yet to a 2-team development cycle (a la Insomniac), but I could be wrong.

Naughty Dog & Uncharted 1 was a "special case" situation. Amy Hennig was on Insomniac's "Full Moon" podcast when Insomniac was developing Resistance 2 & she said that they (ND) completely rewrote their code-base from line 0. Apparently, they were using a proprietary C based programming language & they had to move away from that in order to be able toshare tech with other devs. (which was the implied reason for Amy's & the other "Dogs'" visit to Insomniac that day.)

With the engine in place, the time from UC1 to UC2 was much closer to the industry standard of 18-24 months (& that was with addition of the Havok physics engine that was added.). Remember that famous interview with Evan Wells & Christophe Balestra where they say next gen is "terrifying" & "that they made mistakes moving from PS2 to PS3 & they wouldn't make those same mistakes again."? Chances are good that whatever they are working on won't much longer than industry standard IF they truly have learned their lesson.

Naughty Dog doesn't have a podcast, so there is no way to be sure of where they are in the process, but if they are anything like Insomniac, then they are probably in preproduction for their next gen title (story, script, art, assests, systems), while working to finish The Last of Us. Insomniac doesn't need a full team for that (usually their leads--though Ted Price used to be the studio's impetus until R2 where he began to focus more on the business side of things), so ND is probably analogous. Up until the the time Insomniac went multiformat, both studios seemed to share similar philosophies.

I just don't believe that ND will repeat their process for shifting to the next gen that they did for PS3. Rewriting your code base from scratch 2 generations in a row would be unlikely, so I don't think we can infer the same sort of time gap. I'd REALLY like to know where Insomniac is in the Overstrike process & what their next project is and where they are on that--I think that would give us a better idea of when the new consoles are likely to hit, (esp. Since Insomniac is now multiformat), but since their podcast has gone dark (& Zipper Interactive's podcast as well), there's no easy way to tell what's coming when (although you could read something into that as well--I know it doesn't take the whole team to develop Unit 13 for the Vita, however good it looks.)

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post #180 of 1994 Old 01-22-2012, 06:02 PM
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I just don't believe that ND will repeat their process for shifting to the next gen that they did for PS3. Rewriting your code base from scratch 2 generations in a row would be unlikely, so I don't think we can infer the same sort of time gap.

Except that we have no idea how The Last of Us is affecting their workflow and division of labor. AFAIK they haven't followed in Insomniac's shoes of going to two alternating teams (and even Insomniac couldn't sustain it). At this point, the leads are probably still in a brainstorming stage. They may have no idea yet whether or not their next project is current or next gen because Sony may have no clear line on its next console. But even if Sony did know, ND is a long ways off from getting into full production mode with The Last of Us still in production for an as-yet-unannounced release date/year. The more likely possibility is that ND (like many major dev studios) is taking a very conservative approach in how they're anticipating the "next" gen. If they play their cards right, it could be a current gen game as easily as a next gen one--like what Nintendo did with Twilight Princess.

Long story short, we know no more now than we did two months ago about ND's future plans.

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