PlayStation Meeting 2013 (PS4 unveiling - conference replay in first post) - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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PS4 won't support 4k games. 3D 'not a focus', although 3D capability is better than PS3:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/playstation-4-wont-support-4k-games-3d-not-a-focus
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post #1802 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_D View Post

PS4 won't support 4k games. 3D 'not a focus', although 3D capability is better than PS3:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/playstation-4-wont-support-4k-games-3d-not-a-focus

Glad for that actually. 4k still has a long way to come, and I hate 3d.

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post #1803 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_D View Post

PS4 won't support 4k games. 3D 'not a focus', although 3D capability is better than PS3:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/playstation-4-wont-support-4k-games-3d-not-a-focus

3D is now like surround sound - its there if you want to use it, but no one's going to get on stage to make a big deal about it.

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post #1804 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 10:56 AM
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Glad they're not focusing on 3D. Finally a major company is starting to see the light. Just make 1080p and 60 fps mandatory and I'll be happy.

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post #1805 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Glad they're not focusing on 3D. Finally a major company is starting to see the light. Just make 1080p and 60 fps mandatory and I'll be happy.

If they manage that for most games during the first year, they will get me to buy a console even if I don't have 10 must have games lined up. Right now I'll stick with my PS3 and Wii U.

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post #1806 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:02 AM
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I just wish it was "Holiday 2013" right now. I want the new systems. I am still excited for some of the games of this gen, but I want something new already.

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post #1807 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:26 AM
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4k support confirmed. Sort of.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/02/21/playstation4-outputs-4k-video.aspx
Quote:
Sony exec Shuhei Yoshida confirmed that the upcoming PlayStation 4 console plays 4K resolution pre-recorded video - with four times the pixels of a 1080p display - but does not support the higher resolution for games.

Yoshida told Joystiq that the PS4 supports playback of 4K video streams, which require a stupendous amount of storage or bandwidth and an extremely expensive display that can handle the format. The lack of game support should surprise nobody, as the processing power to render games in realtime at 3840x2160 resolution is unrealistic to expect even out of next-gen consoles.
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post #1808 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:32 AM
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Hopefully at the very least PS1 games will carry over to the PS4 since emulation would be simple enough. I don't care about streaming games over the Cloud, I just want to have my games stored locally and ready to go. I don't want to have to buy Final Fantasy IX yet again or pay an additional fee of any kind.
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post #1809 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:35 AM
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post #1810 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:50 AM
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I know Sony likes to update the store just once a week, but I really wish they would either put the whole presentation on there or at least all the individual game videos so I can watch them in high definition.

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post #1811 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll update this info into the PS4 thread's first post.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by darthrsg View Post

4k support confirmed. Sort of.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/02/21/playstation4-outputs-4k-video.aspx

As I said in the other thread, 4K tech will be useful in gaming if only for the fact that it makes it possible to play 1080P games at 60fps in 3D. It's been expected all along that no game will use 4K resolution.


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post #1812 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 11:56 AM
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They most likely will put the whole presentation on the psn. They have done stuff like that before.
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post #1813 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

They most likely will put the whole presentation on the psn. They have done stuff like that before.
But I want it now!
I guess I will have to work on my patience for now.

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post #1814 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:01 PM
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Allow me to rain on the used games parade just a bit:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/think-the-ps4-wil-be-best-friends-with-used-games-not-so-fast

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post #1815 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:03 PM
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We'll see what MS has to say about it in a few weeks. They managed to emulate x86 on PPC with the 360. Wasnt perfect, but any Xbox game I've ever put in worked fine (a glitch here or there).

There's always the possibility that Sony is making excuses so they can just sell you the same game all over again.

Although I am not an expert with regards to CPU architecture, I do believe that it is somewhat easier for a PowerPC based CPU to emulate x86 CPUs than it is the other way around. I am a fanatic about emulation ever since I was in college over a decade ago and discovered a wonderful program called MAME. It took me a good long while to understand why a computer I had with a 600 MHz CPU in it was having so much trouble playing arcade games that ran on a measly 60 MHz CPU. That is when I was introduced to the difference in CPU architectures and the fact that to emulate a game properly, you not only have to emulate the main CPU, but every single other processor contained on that board including the graphics chip, the sound chip, the chip that handles controller interfaces, etc. etc.

While the PS4 has an incredibly powerful CPU with a boatload of superfast RAM, for it to properly emulate PS3 games it would have to emulate each and every calculation performed by the speedy Cell processor, the graphics processor, etc. etc. It would be like having to translate Japanese, Chinese, Greek, and Russian into English in real time during a lengthy teleconference will all translation being performed by one person.

That was the best analogy given to me when I was learning about emulation. It's very akin to translating languages. Some languages are easier to translate than others. Like translation Brazilian Portuguese into Portugal Portuguese or vice-versa. Others are incredibly difficult to translate such as translating Japanese text into Hebrew text. Basically, taking one x86 based CPU code and emulating it into another x86 based CPU code is like translating one Latin based language into another. Some are fairly simple, others more complex. But the translation of a non-Latin based language (Cell processor) into a Latin based language (x86) simply takes a lot more time and effort. Something that the PS4 just doesn't have the ability to do.

So I don't really think Sony did this in order to re-sell their games and make money off of it. It's more likely that the console simply cannot do that based on how different its design is compared to that of the PS3. What Sony can do is make it so that if you have the physical disc of a PS1-3 game inserted into the PS4 it will recognize the disc and then you will be able to play it via streaming through their Cloud service. Of course, the Cloud service is likely going to be a paid subscription service.
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post #1816 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

But I want it now!
I guess I will have to work on my patience for now.
I posted HD vids for all of the games shown for the PS4 in their respective, individual thread.

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post #1817 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Allow me to rain on the used games parade just a bit:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/think-the-ps4-wil-be-best-friends-with-used-games-not-so-fast
I am guessing that the online code will be put in place for all games, which I have no problem with.

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post #1818 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CMonMan View Post

I'm confused about Backwards Compatibility. Do we really know anything?

They said the PS1, PS2, and PS3 game libraries would become available in phases, right? I assume as downloads? And I would also assume you would need to re-purchase them? What about people with physical media? Do they have a way to allow you to confirm you've purchased it, and give you a free download OR is there another way to allow the physical media to be played? I want to buy several more PS3 games but won't waste my money if I can't play them on the PS4.

Sony makes its money off of software sales. They'll make you repurchase.
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post #1819 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:25 PM
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Although I am not an expert with regards to CPU architecture, I do believe that it is somewhat easier for a PowerPC based CPU to emulate x86 CPUs than it is the other way around. I am a fanatic about emulation ever since I was in college over a decade ago and discovered a wonderful program called MAME. It took me a good long while to understand why a computer I had with a 600 MHz CPU in it was having so much trouble playing arcade games that ran on a measly 60 MHz CPU. That is when I was introduced to the difference in CPU architectures and the fact that to emulate a game properly, you not only have to emulate the main CPU, but every single other processor contained on that board including the graphics chip, the sound chip, the chip that handles controller interfaces, etc. etc.

While the PS4 has an incredibly powerful CPU with a boatload of superfast RAM, for it to properly emulate PS3 games it would have to emulate each and every calculation performed by the speedy Cell processor, the graphics processor, etc. etc. It would be like having to translate Japanese, Chinese, Greek, and Russian into English in real time during a lengthy teleconference will all translation being performed by one person.

That was the best analogy given to me when I was learning about emulation. It's very akin to translating languages. Some languages are easier to translate than others. Like translation Brazilian Portuguese into Portugal Portuguese or vice-versa. Others are incredibly difficult to translate such as translating Japanese text into Hebrew text. Basically, taking one x86 based CPU code and emulating it into another x86 based CPU code is like translating one Latin based language into another. Some are fairly simple, others more complex. But the translation of a non-Latin based language (Cell processor) into a Latin based language (x86) simply takes a lot more time and effort. Something that the PS4 just doesn't have the ability to do.

So I don't really think Sony did this in order to re-sell their games and make money off of it. It's more likely that the console simply cannot do that based on how different its design is compared to that of the PS3. What Sony can do is make it so that if you have the physical disc of a PS1-3 game inserted into the PS4 it will recognize the disc and then you will be able to play it via streaming through their Cloud service. Of course, the Cloud service is likely going to be a paid subscription service.

You're not wrong about any of that, but just because something is difficult, doesn't mean its impossible. That the cell is too powerful to emulate is simply being taken on faith by everybody. Consoles were never meant to run crysis either. Give talented programmers some credit - most PC emulators are written by people in their spare time, without the same kind of access and resources that a Sony insider would have. I've yet to see a console that hasn't been emulated properly in one way or another, whether by a subsequent console or the PC.

I think they're purely focusing on the cloud because there's a monetization aspect there get to be unveiled - dont tell me the PS4 can't emulate the PS2 or PS1. And I'll never believe they have racks of disembodied PS1/2s to run those games in the cloud - they'll be emulated server side, probably on x86 chips - but that emulation won't be shared with you to run your own discs, huh?

They're already backtracking a bit and being cagey - commenting about how they might have some emulation, but its so, so hard with some games. I bet PS3 emulation will all of a sudden become possible, if xbox 360 emulation proves not too difficult.

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post #1820 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 12:48 PM
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I would rather they just make a USB add on for the PS4 that allows BC to be added for everyone that wants it and allow all returning PS3 owners to transfer everything over if they want to. System cost stays down, a lot less people are upset, full support of PS3 content is ready day one.

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post #1821 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:02 PM
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I would rather they just make a USB add on for the PS4 that allows BC to be added for everyone that wants it and allow all returning PS3 owners to transfer everything over if they want to. System cost stays down, a lot less people are upset, full support of PS3 content is ready day one.

I don't think USB is up to this, far too little bandwidth. Not unless they put the entire PS3 chipset (including GPU and memory) in it, and just ferried the I/O over USB. Itd even need its own power supply.

They'd need a custom port specifically for this device, the R&D for it would probably end up more than just putting the damn cell in.

The only last minute solution I can see is daisy chaining your PS3 in through HDMI. Kind of how google TV does it - everything is actually running on the PS3, the PS4's UI is an overlay. You could launch everything and be within the PS4 UI. It'd bring everything together software-wise, but you still need the PS3 connected. I'd be fine with it as a stopgap....of course this is equally a pipe dream.

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post #1822 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:08 PM
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Release a couple of amazing PS4 games early on and people (at least most of 'em) will forget about such thing that's called "BC".

PS3's early adopters made some use of the BC at the beginning because of how bad the release games were, Sony shouldn't make the same mistake again.

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post #1823 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

You're not wrong about any of that, but just because something is difficult, doesn't mean its impossible. That the cell is too powerful to emulate is simply being taken on faith by everybody. Consoles were never meant to run crysis either. Give talented programmers some credit - most PC emulators are written by people in their spare time, without the same kind of access and resources that a Sony insider would have. I've yet to see a console that hasn't been emulated properly in one way or another, whether by a subsequent console or the PC.

I think they're purely focusing on the cloud because there's a monetization aspect there get to be unveiled - dont tell me the PS4 can't emulate the PS2 or PS1. And I'll never believe they have racks of disembodied PS1/2s to run those games in the cloud - they'll be emulated server side, probably on x86 chips - but that emulation won't be shared with you to run your own discs, huh?

They're already backtracking a bit and being cagey - commenting about how they might have some emulation, but its so, so hard with some games. I bet PS3 emulation will all of a sudden become possible, if xbox 360 emulation proves not too difficult.

Well if you are correct, I will gladly slice up a piece of humble pie and eat it. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

With regards to the emulation of older consoles on things such as PC, more often than not they are indeed emulating properly, but there are just as many cases where it appears as if the emulation is 100% correct when in reality it is actually still not perfect. More often than not, a casual gamer wouldn't notice it but a hardcore "expert" on a game would. Things such as timings being off just a bit resulting in a tactic that works on the real machine not working in the emulation, or causing AI to behave slightly differently since information it requires to act properly isn't provided to it properly.

The PS1 had a CPU running at around 34 MHz with the MIPS I architecture. I believe that that architecture is incredibly simple with fewer instructions in use than the x86 one, so the emulation of it was pretty simple. So this one should be able to be run natively on the PS4. It's a simple chip design with fewer instructions in it than what the PS4 CPU will have.

The PS2 used a CPU running at around 299 MHz, I believe. It used the more advanced MIPS III and IV architectures which put in a few more instructions as well. The thing with the PS2 CPU, however, is that unlike the PS1 it had a bunch of other functions built right into the main "Emotion Engine" die with some of those items in there still remaining confidential. The much higher processing speed (around 9.5 times as fast), in addition to other functionality built in, made emulation of the PS2 much more power intensive. Hence why it wasn't fully emulated as quickly as the PS1 was.

The PS3 went and used a new style CPU we now know as "The Cell". This runs at 3.2 GHz with a whole bevy of special instructions and functionality built into the custom chip. For the PS4 to emulate this chip, it would have to be insanely powerful and run extremely fast, and that's if it was able to run the same instruction sets that the Cell used. Throw in the fact that other aspects of the PS3 system itself would need to be emulated at the same time, and the fact that games on the PS3 are quite complex whereby small imperfections in the emulation would have huge impacts, and I just can't see it happening.

For the Gaikai streaming, they will undoubtedly have servers built with the Cell CPU that run the game natively (e.g. no emulation) but have other functions handled on the PS4 side.

I never really looked into what would be required for full emulation of the PS3 until just now, but wow. I see that with the technology we have out there today it can't be done. Never realized just how powerful a beast the PS3 is. biggrin.gif

I hope I'm not coming across as a "Nuh-uh. They can't do it" type of ninny. smile.gif I really, really, really would love it if it was possible for it to be done via emulation so that my bandwidth on my internet account isn't eaten up if I decide to stream a game through Gaikai. The PS1 games most definitely should still be playable on the PS4 due to the amazingly simple design of that system. The PS2 I can see being a bit difficult due to the custom Emotion Engine in there, but if anybody could do that Sony could. (Though I do like the HD remakes done for many games on the PS3). The PS3, however, I just can't fathom how that could be done with any degree of accuracy or reliability in the emulation. Or at a framerate that would make it actually playable.
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post #1824 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:12 PM
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Just put a USB label on an HDMI cable and connect your PS3 to a TV. Voila.
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post #1825 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:19 PM
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Please enough with the BC debacle. That is what also drove the price of the PS3 so much in the beginning. The early PS3s actually had PSOne and PS2 chips on the mother board.

If you guys want a decently priced PS4 then forget about BC! Keep your PS3 and call it a day. Let them focus on next gen games.
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post #1826 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Release a couple of amazing PS4 games early on and people (at least most of 'em) will forget about such thing that's called "BC".

PS3's early adopters made some use of the BC at the beginning because of how bad the release games were, Sony shouldn't make the same mistake again.

The issue is that every single person who bought into the whole "Digital is the Future" is getting screwed over. All those PS3 games on the PSN right now will one day be gone forever. This is the issue, Sony is setting a very bad example for Digital going forward. Sales on the PSN will tank after this news. It is sad that Nintendo has set the best example so far for supporting digital content across generations.


As for USB, the PS4 is using USB 3.0 so bandwith shouldn't be too much of an issue. With the move to 22nm that should be coming this year, the PS3 chipset should drop in power draw by quite a bit. One port may not be enough but there are several ways to make it work. (Even if it plugs into a USB cluser on the back of the unit) Attaching to the PSU on the back of the unit is also an option for power.

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post #1827 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Please enough with the BC debacle. That is what also drove the price of the PS3 so much in the beginning. The early PS3s actually had PSOne and PS2 chips on the mother board.

If you guys want a decently priced PS4 then forget about BC! Keep your PS3 and call it a day. Let them focus on next gen games.

Not true. The PS2 chipset cost $30 to include at launch, PS1 was done with emulation, removing it was penny pinching at best.

The PS3 chipset is currently well under $100 at 45nm, the drop to 22nm and combination onto a single chip will reduce costs greatly.

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post #1828 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The issue is that every single person who bought into the whole "Digital is the Future" is getting screwed over. All those PS3 games on the PSN right now will one day be gone forever. This is the issue, Sony is setting a very bad example for Digital going forward. Sales on the PSN will tank after this news. It is sad that Nintendo has set the best example so far for supporting digital content across generations.


As for USB, the PS4 is using USB 3.0 so bandwith shouldn't be too much of an issue. With the move to 22nm that should be coming this year, the PS3 chipset should drop in power draw by quite a bit. One port may not be enough but there are several ways to make it work. (Even if it plugs into a USB cluser on the back of the unit) Attaching to the PSU on the back of the unit is also an option for power.

I'm def holding off on PSN purchases for now.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
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post #1829 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

You're not wrong about any of that, but just because something is difficult, doesn't mean its impossible. That the cell is too powerful to emulate is simply being taken on faith by everybody. Consoles were never meant to run crysis either. Give talented programmers some credit - most PC emulators are written by people in their spare time, without the same kind of access and resources that a Sony insider would have. I've yet to see a console that hasn't been emulated properly in one way or another, whether by a subsequent console or the PC.

I think they're purely focusing on the cloud because there's a monetization aspect there get to be unveiled - dont tell me the PS4 can't emulate the PS2 or PS1. And I'll never believe they have racks of disembodied PS1/2s to run those games in the cloud - they'll be emulated server side, probably on x86 chips - but that emulation won't be shared with you to run your own discs, huh?

They're already backtracking a bit and being cagey - commenting about how they might have some emulation, but its so, so hard with some games. I bet PS3 emulation will all of a sudden become possible, if xbox 360 emulation proves not too difficult.

Well, spending more on R&D for emulation, means a higher price for the console. After all, if we're talking about BC for previously owned games, no one is making any money off of that.

I look at is as we can have:
A) A boatload of money spent on the VirtualCell engine for emulation and a $600 PS4 with full BC.
B)A boatload of money spent on the VirtualCell engine for emulation and a $500 PS4 with full BC, but cuts made elsewhere, like downgrading to only 4GB GDDR5
C)No money spent on revisiting the past, and all development costs spent on making the best possible console for playing the games of today and tomorrow at the most reasonable cost possible.

Pick your poison.

If the launch line-up is so bad that my biggest concern is whether I can re-play old games, then Sony will have much bigger problems than BC.

Enjoying BF4 on the PS4, bugs and all.
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post #1830 of 1994 Old 02-21-2013, 02:31 PM
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I choose C please
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