PlayStation Meeting 2013 (PS4 unveiling - conference replay in first post) - Page 65 - AVS Forum
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post #1921 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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The first post has been updated with a video of the entire two-hour PS4 unveiling presentation.

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post #1922 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Not at all. Check it out again. It's really unclear. I'm wondering if there's a translation issue in how the term "self publishing" is being used by Yoshida. If you look at that statement, it actually makes no sense. An "independent publisher" is not a thing, nor would it make sense for Sony to "act as publisher" for games that already have publishers. And when he's talking about "self publishing" he seems to be talking about games that have publishers rather than games without publishers. I think it's a translation flub because it makes no sense.

I think what he means by "independent publishers" is "independent developers," in which case it would make sense for Sony to act as publisher (which as I said above, is how they currently do things). And when he says "self published" games, I think he means games with publishers already, in which case it is indeed their product. His wording (or perhaps the translator's wording) is confusing as hell.

But if Sony is actually going to open up their marketplace to truly self-published games (i.e. independently developed games without publishers), that's a major win for developers and gamers.

Self publishing will be allowed on PSN:

Blow's The Witness will be a timed exclusive on PS4
Self-publishing will be available on PSN



Jonathan Blow’s The Witness To Be Self-Published On The PS4


Until someone says different this is what we know.

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post #1923 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

I don't like that they call it a low power cpu.

The CPU will be much more efficient than Cell. The Wii U CPU is more efficient with code than Cell. The AMD chip will probably do 2-3x more instructions per second than Cell if not more. Combine that with 8 cores (vs 1 main core and 6 coprocessors) Out of Order code execution and you have a much better CPU for games.
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post #1924 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 03:40 PM
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One thing occurred to me. I really hope the PS4 has infrared for remotes over Bluetooth or both. Using an infrared dongle takes up controller slot one so when I play a game I have to pull it out and reboot the controller to get slot one. There's probably a lot of innuendo in that last sentence if you want it.
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post #1925 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The CPU will be much more efficient than Cell. The Wii U CPU is more efficient with code than Cell. The AMD chip will probably do 2-3x more instructions per second than Cell if not more. Combine that with 8 cores (vs 1 main core and 6 coprocessors) Out of Order code execution and you have a much better CPU for games.

OK, I was worried they were going the wiiu route and just upgrading the GPU and using a crappy CPU.
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post #1926 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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References to a low-powered CPU is likely to mean that this 8-core unit doesn't require a lot of power to operate like some of the higher tier processors out there with less cores. It will run cooler as a result.
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post #1927 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

OK, I was worried they were going the wiiu route and just upgrading the GPU and using a crappy CPU.

The Wii U CPU is better than the 360 CPU, it is just clocked low to use less power. It is a custom chip much like the GPU, the analysis confirmed it wasn't just three Broadways or even a multicore 750.

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post #1928 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

OK, I was worried they were going the wiiu route and just upgrading the GPU and using a crappy CPU.

It's not the fastest CPU on the market, but it doesn't need to be - anything the CPU can't handle, the GPU can. It doesn't even need to handle physics or any sort of decompression anymore. The GPU is many times more important than the CPU this generation - but even still, an 8 core OoO CPU with modern extensions like AVX is no joke. Maybe you kind find some specific workload where the cell is faster, but overall its a much faster and more versatile chip.

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post #1929 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Crash44 View Post

Self publishing will be allowed on PSN:

Blow's The Witness will be a timed exclusive on PS4
Self-publishing will be available on PSN



Jonathan Blow’s The Witness To Be Self-Published On The PS4


Until someone says different this is what we know.
I hope it's as straight forward as that, and I hope it manages to do a better job than XBL's indie marketplace. I'm sure we'll start hearing more around E3 and launch.

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post #1930 of 1994 Old 02-23-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I hope it's as straight forward as that, and I hope it manages to do a better job than XBL's indie marketplace. I'm sure we'll start hearing more around E3 and launch.

I am curious about this too. Wonder if it helps that Fez guy?
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post #1931 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It's not the fastest CPU on the market, but it doesn't need to be - anything the CPU can't handle, the GPU can. It doesn't even need to handle physics or any sort of decompression anymore. The GPU is many times more important than the CPU this generation - but even still, an 8 core OoO CPU with modern extensions like AVX is no joke. Maybe you kind find some specific workload where the cell is faster, but overall its a much faster and more versatile chip.

So, it should be equivalent to a high mid range gaming pc????
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post #1932 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

So, it should be equivalent to a high mid range gaming pc????

Sort of. The CPU in what most people would consider a high to mid range gaming PC is generally much more powerful. But they're also overkill, and theyre running inefficient code. Games are just starting to use GPU for code, and I doubt there's any game out there that's coded to take advantage of 8 CPU cores. PC games are written to support the lowest common denominator, console games are coded to run exactly on that system. You have to look at the system as a whole - they chose this CPU because its exactly what they need, and the line between a GPU and CPU is much blurrier than it used to be.

The games we'll see 2-3 years from now are going to look better than anything you're currently seeing, even on a high end PC or next gen trailer right now. Once they understand and start designing exactly for these systems, its going to be nuts.

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post #1933 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bgarner View Post

Our digital purchases for anything are not going to be around that long including iTunes and I don't expect it to be for the most part.
Not a good comparison to use iTunes which launched almost ten years ago. A song you bought in 2003 can still be purchased and played on many devices. Even if iTunes went away you can still play all your music on many devices other then Apple products.

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post #1934 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

Not a good comparison to use iTunes which launched almost ten years ago. A song you bought in 2003 can still be purchased and played on many devices. Even if iTunes went away you can still play all your music on many devices other then Apple products.

I expect by the time any of these services go dark there will be 10,000 ways to pirate them, and if you bought it, you shouldn't feel the least bit conflicted about it.

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post #1935 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I expect by the time any of these services go dark there will be 10,000 ways to pirate them, and if you bought it, you shouldn't feel the least bit conflicted about it.

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post #1936 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I expect by the time any of these services go dark there will be 10,000 ways to pirate them, and if you bought it, you shouldn't feel the least bit conflicted about it.
By the time these services "go dark," international IP law and distribution technologies will have changed substantially. Hopefully for the better. One way or the other, digital piracy will soon be an outdated concept. And one of the big ways that will happen is to change digital property rights (longevity, resale rights, etc.).

Regardless, Sony is seemingly still living in the 1990s with respect to digital distribution and consumer rights. They buy these awesome, cutting edge technologies (Gaikai), but then some executive idiots tie the technology's hands by imposing outdated rights management concepts.

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post #1937 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 09:24 PM
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A pretty good article of why this is going to be an awesome system, even compared to high end gaming rigs.
http://www.bradfordtaylor.com/insert-blank-press-start/ps4-vs-the-great-discord/
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post #1938 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 09:30 PM
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There is not an 8 core APU for purchase. Most people are just running a quad core setup. Not to mention the PS4 has a second chip for background processes that helps take even more load off the APU. There is no memory available to purchase that provides the same speed as the PS4. Sure you might have 16 GB of DDR3 for your system and 3 GB of GDDR5 for your video, but it’s not the same as the PS4′s unified 8 GB of GDDR5 clocked at 176 GB/s for system and video. Comparatively non-overclocked DDR3-1333 for PC’s transfer data at 10.7 GB/s. Also, unless you’ve built a completely new computer in the last 6 months, you’re probably not running a complete PCI Express 3.0 Setup. Meaning your MOBO, CPU, and GPU all have to be equipped with it. This means your bus speeds could be aiding in the bottlenecking of your system. Even still PCI 3.0 can’t compete with the bus speeds within an APU. I’m not saying that the PS4 is the end all be all machine, but it might be better equipped than it is given credit for. They also have a clear advantage of being able to write to the metal. There is no cumbersome OS or layers that a typical system has to work through. P




From the Link in my above post.
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post #1939 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

There is not an 8 core APU for purchase. Most people are just running a quad core setup. Not to mention the PS4 has a second chip for background processes that helps take even more load off the APU. There is no memory available to purchase that provides the same speed as the PS4. Sure you might have 16 GB of DDR3 for your system and 3 GB of GDDR5 for your video, but it’s not the same as the PS4′s unified 8 GB of GDDR5 clocked at 176 GB/s for system and video.
That difference is not necessarily a good thing for the PS4--at least not initially. Game developers aren't used to coding for so many cores and rarely (even on inefficient PCs) use so much memory bandwidth, so it could be a while before they can take advantage of the extra headroom. And it isn't yet known how much of that processing power and memory is reserved for other system functions. And multiplatform development will, of course, keep everything a bit underpowered anyway.

In terms of what we've seen so far, the PS4 looks to be pretty much equivalent to a current PC with moderate-to-high graphics processing. I'm sure that that will get pushed further as the console progresses--especially in first-party games--but it won't be the same visual leap that we saw this generation. We're hitting a cooling off period in PC GPUs, so we could be entering a 2-3 year period with relative visual parity between PC, PS4, and Durango. That could lead to some really amazing multiplatform games.

Regardless, the real selling points of the PS4 won't be in visuals and raw processing power IMO. It will be in system features, exclusive games, and network offerings.

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post #1940 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

A pretty good article of why this is going to be an awesome system, even compared to high end gaming rigs.
http://www.bradfordtaylor.com/insert-blank-press-start/ps4-vs-the-great-discord/
Great read, thanks for sharing!

I can't believe how some people aren't impressed, I mean I literally couldn't ask for anything more than what Sony has shown us for a console that we're most likely going to pay < $500 for, most were expecting 4GB of average speed RAM, getting 8GB of GDDR5 was icing on the cake for me !!!

Comparisons between gaming PCs and consoles is a joke, for one thing console developers push the hardware to it's absolute limits while PC games are FAR from fully utilizing the insane power high end GPUs like the GTX 680, 690 or AMD 7970 has to offer. I've built myself high end gaming PCs before and wasn't impressed seeing how poorly the optimization is overall, using sheer power of the system to get more FPS instead of optimizing the code and efficiency.

ps: There are currently 2 PS4 threads that we're posting in, IMO this one should be locked so we'd continue in the other thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459375/playstation-4), it would be better to track down all the info and news in one thread IMO.
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post #1941 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:44 PM
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post #1942 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iSean View Post

Pricing the PS4, or How You Can Skip the Wait and (Kinda) Build One Today
http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/02/24/pricing-the-ps4-or-how-you-can-skip-the-wait-and-kinda-build-one-today/

Again with the direct PC hardware to console comparisons *facepalm*

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post #1943 of 1994 Old 02-24-2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Again with the direct PC hardware to console comparisons *facepalm*
While you can't do a direct one-to-one comparison, you can get a good ballpark. That's especially true for multiplatform games and for games released in the first year or two of the console's life. But really, why are these horsepower discussions even important? You don't buy a console for horsepower. You buy them for convenience, lower hardware cost, and strong exclusives.

The PS4 is undoubtedly closer than ever to PC-level performance, and we'll see some visually stunning first-party titles. But if you're expecting an all around "PC killer," you're bound to be disappointed.

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post #1944 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Again with the direct PC hardware to console comparisons *facepalm*

It is cost comparison so it is relevant. PS4 is PC hardware.

Of course this is using retail component costs - however, given that Sony's supply chain is nowhere as effective and streamlined as Apple's (for example) I think the dollar numbers are not too far off.
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post #1945 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 09:28 AM
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Custom APU that's not available in the market, different PSU needs, RAM that's not available in the market for system memory, motherboard which for sure not be what's available on shelves for PC builds..etc

Yeah, I don't think it's relevant.

I wasn't just talking about the cost and availability, I was just cringing about how they think a set of PC hardware that on paper seem similar to the PS4's spec will be able to perform the same and how " you can have a PS4 today", for the 10,000th time console developers utilize their hardware much differently and way better than PC developers and it's not an apples to apples comparison.
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post #1946 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 10:02 AM
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Apparently, the dev kits available for the Sony show only had 2.2GB of RAM. The 8GB dev kits just started shipping out in late January to select devs, hardly enough time for a new demo to be built.

If these game demos were built using that little RAM, Sony now has my full attention for E3.

The only link to support this is a forum post made by a supposedly confirmed developer mentioning the RAM limits of old dev kits.

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post #1947 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Apparently, the dev kits available for the Sony show only had 2.2GB of RAM. The 8GB dev kits just started shipping out in late January to select devs, hardly enough time for a new demo to be built.

If these game demos were built using that little RAM, Sony now has my full attention for E3.

The only link to support this is a forum post made by a supposedly confirmed developer mentioning the RAM limits of old dev kits.
As I said above, even high-end PC games don't really use that much RAM. Whether your rumor is true or not, it wouldn't change the fact that current development doesn't actually need that much RAM. It will be a while before development starts hitting the upper end of that limit (if ever in the next gen). Even resource hog developers like Crytech were only hoping for 4GB of standard RAM. We also don't know how much of that 8GB is reserved for other system functions.

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post #1948 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Custom APU that's not available in the market, different PSU needs, RAM that's not available in the market for system memory, motherboard which for sure not be what's available on shelves for PC builds..etc

Yeah, I don't think it's relevant.

I wasn't just talking about the cost and availability, I was just cringing about how they think a set of PC hardware that on paper seem similar to the PS4's spec will be able to perform the same and how " you can have a PS4 today", for the 10,000th time console developers utilize their hardware much differently and way better than PC developers and it's not an apples to apples comparison.
I agree, the Forbes article is a joke. There section on the ram literally made me laugh; cause 8GB of DDR3 is a great price and performance comparison for 8GB of GDDR5 ram.

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post #1949 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

As I said above, even high-end PC games don't really use that much RAM. Whether your rumor is true or not, it wouldn't change the fact that current development doesn't actually need that much RAM. It will be a while before development starts hitting the upper end of that limit (if ever in the next gen). Even resource hog developers like Crytech were only hoping for 4GB of standard RAM. We also don't know how much of that 8GB is reserved for other system functions.


Wasn't the biggest complaint developers had was the need for more ram, now Sony gives them more then they ever wanted, faster then they ever needed and now people complain that it is too much.
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post #1950 of 1994 Old 02-25-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kwaidonjin View Post

Wasn't the biggest complaint developers had was the need for more ram, now Sony gives them more then they ever wanted, faster then they ever needed and now people complain that it is too much.

For current games, it is too much, but a few years from now devs will be thanking them.

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