The Last Of Us - an exclusive apocalypse survival game, now remastered for the PS4 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 895 Old 05-19-2012, 02:05 PM
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the way ign describes the gameplay, this thing could be getting slapped with an M. and that's fine by me. bring on the gore.

500 gigs FTW.
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post #92 of 895 Old 05-19-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post



ND's visuals are getting crazy if this trailer is of any worth. They tend to render them in real time to allow seamless in/out gameplay. Wish they licensed this tech out to more dev's.

i don't. i don't want every game i play to look like uncharted.

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post #93 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 08:51 AM
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We finally have some gameplay footage shown at E3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbLOokeC3VU

I can't wait for this release. The gameplay looks awesome. Unfortunately it has been confirmed the game won't come out until sometime in 2013.
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post #94 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Epic brutality. I'm loving this aggressive style. smile.gif

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post #95 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 10:25 AM
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Looks awesome....sucks about the 2013 release!

but will absolutely be getting this one.
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post #96 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 11:04 AM
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I like the more mature theme but that also means the game will be M rated. Will be interesting how that will effect the sales since younger and some older (usually more casual) gamers don't like M rated.

I hope the game allows complete stealth to sneak through more locations. I'm tired having to shoot at everything on the screen like Uncharted or other shooter. Gun is not the solution to solve all problems. It's a cheap and lazy way to solve all problems in video games.

Also, from the gameplay demo, it's hard to tell how much freedom to explore but I don't mean open world. Even in an area, I don't want the game to hand holding every step I have to go in one direction like Uncharted. Let the player figure out what to do when arrive in a new location.

If Uncharted is targeted at younger and more casual gamers since it's Teen rated, and Last of Us is Mature rated, then make the game more challenging to hardcore gamers. When the difficulty setting is set harder, also make the puzzles harder, not just shooting.
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post #97 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 01:27 PM
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Very surprised to hear the game has multiplayer.

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post #98 of 895 Old 06-06-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Very surprised to hear the game has multiplayer.

Make the Multiplayer more unique like Mass Effect 3. Make every character has unique abilities, not just another clone with different skin like Uncharted 2 or 3. It's the main reason I found Uncharted 2 and 3 MP boring because everyone is just a clone of each other.
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post #99 of 895 Old 06-07-2012, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Some pretty cool new impressions are being put up at different sites that's based on an extended 17 minute private demonstration. Apparently, the gameplay is not as linear as some may think:
Quote:
Player choice completely changes The Last of Us

Remember that incredible live gameplay session of The Last of Us we saw at Sony's press conference earlier this week? I've watched live gameplay of that same section of the game one more time since then, but it was approached with a different play style this time, and that made for a completely different experience. The Last of Us was built to change with player choice, meaning that even small decisions have the potential of setting up entirely new situations.
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On that next floor, Joel finds bandages in a bathroom and uses them to tend to his wounds. In the press conference presentation, he used similar bandages and a bottle of booze to create a Molotov fire bomb instead. This shows that the player is free to choose how they use their findings, and that items found can be used offensively or defensively.
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In some gameplay that went beyond the press conference demo, Joel and Ellie continue on through this next floor, using a mixture of stealth and brute force to take on a few more enemies. A standoff occurs between the last remaining scavenger and the duo, which has Joel trying to track him down, shotgun armed. Joel barely dodges a fire bomb and manages to take him out with a bullet. Moving on, Joel and Ellie try to continue on by climbing up an elevator shaft. After boosting Ellie up, the elevator falls, sending Joel several floors down into the basement, which was flooded with water.

In The Last of Us, the AI was crafted so that the humans in this world react based on what weapons you expose. They read your defenses like a poker hand and react appropriately. Group behavior in the AI has it so that all enemies are aware of each other, and they'll work together to take you down. For instance, if they find a body, they'll work together to investigate and find out who killed this person. All of this work helps to provide an experience where it will seem like you're up against other humans stuck in the same world, trying to survive.
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What's exciting is that all of this comes together to make for a game that plays out differently every single time. In this demo, for example, Joel and Ellie could have taken another path toward their goal, with different items and obstacles for them to deal with. And even on the same path, with different actions, Ellie's reactions would also change, making for a different experience. The AI would have enemies also reacting differently, perhaps moving differently, or changing their tactics.

The work that Naughty Dog has put into The Last of Us could bring us an experience that goes far beyond the scripted, segmented play that we've become accustomed to. To me, that's far more exciting than the post-apocalyptic setting or cinematic presentation.

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post #100 of 895 Old 06-07-2012, 09:04 PM
 
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Hopefully it's true. AI's been going backwards and hasn't much progressed since HL2 IMO. Be nice to see some advances in both realtime scripting and in AI behavior.
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post #101 of 895 Old 06-07-2012, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Hopefully it's true. AI's been going backwards and hasn't much progressed since HL2 IMO. Be nice to see some advances in both realtime scripting and in AI behavior.
Agreed. Unfortunately, the problem is that most people who play games don't care. They play a game once, expect to breeze through it and kill some dudes, then they shelve/sell it. The amount of time, money, and effort that goes into good AI is generally not worth it from a business perspective.

But if anyone is willing to take a risk on investing in subtle details like good AI, it's Naughty Dog. Loved watching the demo.

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post #102 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 08:37 AM
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When we first heard of this game, I thought it was mostly about surviving against mutated humans and/or zombies.

Since then most of the screenshots and footage seems to show it's more a "survive against other remaining unaffected humans of the plague."

While both are cool and this game looks excellent, I was hoping it was more of a horror setting.
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post #103 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW, if it hasn't been mentioned here yet, the game will have a strong multiplayer mode as well. I'm not sure of co-op however.

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post #104 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

BTW, if it hasn't been mentioned here yet, the game will have a strong multiplayer mode as well. I'm not sure of co-op however.

Booo.
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post #105 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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More is bad? confused.gif

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post #106 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 03:27 PM
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Tacked on multiplayer that delays release is bad...especially for someone that doesn't play online much.
If it's a good solid deep co-op adventure type of gameplay, I'll at least try it out.
But if it's just another title that feels it has to create an online mode where you run around the same maps trying to shoot other players in the face while holding some territory or stealing the other team's underpants to get a bunch of 10 year olds to put down Call of Battlefield Duty for 10 minutes and so Sony can force people to buy new or buy an online code, I'll be disappointed.
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post #107 of 895 Old 06-08-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ritrain86 View Post

Looks awesome....sucks about the 2013 release!
but will absolutely be getting this one.

I think it's good that it won't be out until next year. This fall and winter are already overloaded with big AAA titles. But with God of War 4 in March and GTA V likely in the same window, I'm not sure when they'd release this. I'm thinking April with GTA V in May. They could go for February, but then it would be up against Bioshock Infinite. So April seems like the best bet.

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post #108 of 895 Old 06-09-2012, 01:36 AM
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Tacked on multiplayer that delays release is bad...especially for someone that doesn't play online much.
That's not how development for a major release works. The multiplayer production is independent of the singleplayer work. It's also worth keeping in mind that the entire projected budget for the game is predicated on the overall financial success of the game. Which means that the money and time going into the singleplayer game is being (at least partly) funded by what they plan to earn from the multiplayer component. In effect, the singleplayer can actually afford to be better thanks to the multiplayer.

All you have to do is play and enjoy the singleplayer game. Ignore the multiplayer. Reap the benefits of both. biggrin.gif

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post #109 of 895 Old 06-09-2012, 08:44 AM
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Almost all releases will have MP components these days, it discourages trade ins and thus used sales.

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post #110 of 895 Old 06-09-2012, 09:11 AM
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Almost all releases will have MP components these days, it discourages trade ins and thus used sales.
It's also cheaper and more profitable to sell DLC for multiplayer. In addition, it's a back-of-the-box bullet point that sells more titles off of the shelf initially. It can be locked behind an Online Pass, so Sony can make money off of used copies and rentals. And so on. There are many good reasons why big shooters have multiplayer.

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post #111 of 895 Old 06-09-2012, 11:45 PM
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Am I the only one who noticed that the plot of this game is basically 'The Happening' plus 10 years?

I mean, it's still going to be awesome... I'm just saying: The Happening.

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post #112 of 895 Old 06-09-2012, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

More is bad? confused.gif

It sure as hell can be!

I really love key lime pie... but I'm not sure if I would still like it as much if I had it all the time.

See also: Star Wars prequels, Call of Duty franchise and masturbation... (ouch).

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post #113 of 895 Old 06-13-2012, 11:27 AM
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Agreed. Unfortunately, the problem is that most people who play games don't care. They play a game once, expect to breeze through it and kill some dudes, then they shelve/sell it. The amount of time, money, and effort that goes into good AI is generally not worth it from a business perspective.
But if anyone is willing to take a risk on investing in subtle details like good AI, it's Naughty Dog. Loved watching the demo.

I hate to agree with you but in reality, many gamers especially casual gamers just want to win and can careless then AI is so dumb.

For example, in Battlefield 3 single player campaign, I found at lower difficulty, if I run as fast as I can to towards the enemies and stop behind the enemy line, the enemies have no idea what to do when I'm behind them. The mission is scripted for the enemies to look and attack forward, not backwards. In one mission, the game even glitched when I hide as far into the enemy line as possible and keep killing them and the mission cannot progress forward. Only until I moved to the middle of the battleground, then the game finally progressed.

There is a difference between cleverly scripted enemies vs real good AI that actually learn the players attack style. At most you can expect today is cleverly scripted enemies because designed a very clever AI is too much and costy to develop. How many publisher wants to allocate "20%" of the total cost of the game development into AI? You can't even demo good AI because it's not "eye candy" like pretty graphics. Or rather the publisher doesn't want to demo a very clever AI because the marketer will keep failing in the game. Only hardcore gamers may notice the game has really good AI after playing the game for a while.

Another problem with really good AI is it will take a long time to take down each enemy. How many gamers like to spend an hour just to take down two enemies because they are too good and learn to figure out the gamer's playstyle? Most gamers will get more excited behaving like "Superman" running around taking down enemy after enemy.

Outside the debate of scripted or AI, why are the enemies so talkative when they are hiding. It's like if you can't find them, here we are waiting for you to kill them. Even dumb scripted enemies can be quiet or keep their mouth shut. Let the gamer search the area to find them. Or make the enemies slightly better. When the gamer is search for the enemies, the enemy will sneak quietly behind the gamer and tries to kill the player. I have seen this done but very rare. Nothing is better then getting killed because you forgot to check your back. Next is too much to ask, build basic AI when the gamer does look his behind and saw the enemy sneaking up. Even scripted, the enemy can be programmed to react and do something and just standing there like a dummy and let the gamer shoots back.
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post #114 of 895 Old 06-13-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

Am I the only one who noticed that the plot of this game is basically 'The Happening' plus 10 years?
I mean, it's still going to be awesome... I'm just saying: The Happening.
Nope. Nowhere near that premise.
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post #115 of 895 Old 06-13-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D 
I hate to agree with you but in reality, many gamers especially casual gamers just want to win and can care less then AI is so dumb.
I agree 100% with everything you said above. The role of good AI is a debate that should be happening more often. And I think there are valid reasons why most developers don't put much time and effort into good AI.

One big reason is that gaming requires a certain kind of "literacy." Those of us who are "well read" want more complex and subtle games. We want to feel challenged as gamers. That doesn't necessarily mean we want more difficult games, but we do want more interesting and more nuanced games. Like a serious reader of novels, well versed gamers want games that feed our brains with more interesting design and mechanics. A big part of that is AI.

Unfortunately, unlike books, games are incredibly expensive to produce and market. So that means it's harder to justify the expense of targeting a niche gamer like many of us, who are looking for truly interesting, subtle, intellectually stimulating games. That's part of why I hate the term "hardcore gamer." Most people who'd consider themselves "hardcore" gamers don't care about subtlety, challenge, nuance, or intelligent design. That's also why I've found so many smaller games better than most big games. But at those smaller scales, designers can't afford to spend the time and money required to make good AI. They also can't afford the technological polish of higher end games. It's why so many big games are just plain dumb.

I mean, I enjoy playing through the CoD campaigns as much as anyone, but it's not what I live for as a gamer. I want those cool details and subtleties. The big games that can be both beautiful and intellectually stimulating are rare. IMO only two games this generation managed to do that: Assassin's Creed and Mirror's Edge.

And few games bother much with good AI. This generation, the only good examples of AI I can think of were almost all first-party titles: Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance, Halo 3, and Halo Reach. Finding a game with good AI is like finding good prepared meats from a boutique butcher. It's a refined product for a niche market. I really don't see that changing anytime soon. Not because the technology isn't there, but because the audience isn't.

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post #116 of 895 Old 06-13-2012, 03:52 PM
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I also understand not every game player are hardcore or want complex or difficult game to play. Sometimes I'm just lazy and don't want difficult games to play. (I often joke about casual Wii gamers. Just because they can shake the Wiimote like crazy and won the game, that's not playing.)

Here's the issue I found with almost every game with difficulty settings. It's uneven. For example, action adventure games like Uncharted. If I set the difficulty higher, the action part gets harder but the puzzles are the same. Why? The developers didn't want to spend the effort to make the puzzles as part of the difficulty setting? Next is setting the difficulty harder for action or shooter only change your heath level lower so that you can't take as many shot and more enemies that are equally dumb. Technically that not really difficulty, more like survivor setting. Again we are dealing with developing good AI. If I want to play higher difficulty, I want the enemies to get smarter, not just higher in quantities and shoot back more often.

Your example about Assassin's Creed. Even the series is still one of my favorite, my issue is every game plays the same. By AC: Revelations, the developers stopped to make any side quest, just story missions. While it's not the worst thing, the game is already too easy because each game is the same and without any side quest, the game becomes really short because I just use the same tricks and "run" through the missions. One of the things in AC I like to do when I get so bore with the missions is assassin every roof top guards for no reason. Or make the guards chase me all over the place for my own entertainment.

Out of all, game I missed the most is true adventure games that involve no action or shooting. Those were the closest interactive novel to me because you spend more time exploring, knowing each character in the story, figuring out what they want before they will help you to proceed in the story. I even have to say games like Heavy Rain is a shallow adventure game. The developers spent so much time in trying to make the character look real and couldn't put much of anything else in the game. For games like Uncharted, if the shooting part is removed, there are very little contents in the game to play.
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post #117 of 895 Old 06-13-2012, 05:09 PM
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I don't necessarily want games to be "harder." I just want them to be more interesting. You know, actually stimulating. Most games are just about mindless fun, which is fine sometimes. With movies, I enjoy mindless fun like in Avatar and The Avengers just fine. But I love films like Their Will Be Blood and A Space Odyssey. Unfortunately, in the gaming industry, there just isn't enough money or consumer interest to justify making games like that.

I don't expect "art." I just want high-production-value games that treat me with some intelligence. What better way to create an intelligent game than with better artificial intelligence? wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex3D 
Here's the issue I found with almost every game with difficulty settings. It's uneven. For example, action adventure games like Uncharted. If I set the difficulty higher, the action part gets harder but the puzzles are the same. Why? The developers didn't want to spend the effort to make the puzzles as part of the difficulty setting?
I agree, but it's not because developers don't want to do it. It's about time and money. As you scale up the difficulty, you're sectioning off the game to a smaller and smaller audience. Why would they spend more money and time creating strong AI for a smaller audience? From their perspective, it doesn't make financial sense.

The better answer is to make games with better AI that everyone can recognize and appreciate. I'm floored by what I'm seeing in the demos for The Last of Us and Watch Dogs. Both of those games are promising some serious upgrades to AI that don't make the game harder, just more interesting and dynamic.
Quote:
Out of all, game I missed the most is true adventure games that involve no action or shooting.
We've seen a big upsurge in these games at the smaller game end of the market. Have you played Machinarium? Fez? Journey? All three are incredible adventure games. LA Noire and Heavy Rain tried to bring the old adventure gameplay into the mainstream, but I think both missed the mark. I've said it a million times before, but all the coolest stuff right now is happening with the smaller scale games.

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post #118 of 895 Old 06-14-2012, 11:37 AM
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I don't think we're really getting those games until next gen, possibly even the gen after that. I don't think it's an unwillingness on the developers part - they're frankly just limited by current technology. Shooters are prevalent because shooting is a very simple interaction - you shoot something, it dies. There's no emotional complexity. Heavy rain tried to do straight up drama...but the tech couldn't fully sell it. Same with LA noire, and both fell back on violence constantly. Even journey and fez fell back on very traditional platforming.

Once the tech is in place to create convincing photorealistic humans, with believable AI and not just scripting driving their behavior....then I think we'll see some phenomenal new experiences.

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post #119 of 895 Old 06-14-2012, 03:45 PM
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Well this sucks. There goes my dream of playing Uncharted 4 next fall.

500 gigs FTW.
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post #120 of 895 Old 06-14-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Well this sucks. There goes my dream of playing Uncharted 4 next fall.
What do you mean? We just got UC3 this past fall. Up to now, they've been on a staggered two-year release schedule. If there were another one and if they were able to stick to the same schedule, it wouldn't be released until fall of 2013 at the soonest (likely later, if it's going to be on next-gen platform).

Or were you referring to the delay for The Last of Us? It's been pushed deeper into 2013. But I wasn't at all surprised to hear that--especially after seeing at E3 what they're doing with AI and adaptive voice over. And if that's the case, they may push Uncharted 4 into fall of 2014. But again, not surprising if we assume it's going to be a PS4 release.

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