Aren't download updates for new games getting out of hand? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 58 Old 12-26-2011, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Mandatory updates when you put a brand new game disc in are really annoying! Ok, I can tolerate 30-50 MB of downloading because you needed to shore up some flaky online play code, but 843 MB?!? Might as well just recall/reissue the game disc because either the game was just not ready for release or there is something serious faulty about your game development. That's a whole lot of code that is evidently broken (looking at you Warhammer 40000 Space Marine).

3 out of 3 games I've bought in the past 2 months needed an update. DeadSpace 2 was a tolerable 50 MB or so. Need For Speed Hot Pursuit was a bit ridiculous at 300 MB. This Warhammer at 843 MB is GD ridiculous!

When did developers lose the ability to develop games that would be stored on an optical disc???

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 58 Old 12-26-2011, 09:14 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Kipp Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
They could always not provide any support.

Kipp
Are you boozen & cruisin the AVS? Join us here ---> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8&page=1&pp=60 good times! www.illinoiscarry.org www.nra.org
Kipp Jones is offline  
post #3 of 58 Old 12-26-2011, 09:16 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
Meh.

Walk away and make a cup of coffee.

Also, you don't have to download the update. Hit circle and the game will boot just fine, offline. You do to play online though.

It's one of the downsides of having a HDD. Developers can not only fix code, but update broken assets (think map glitches, texture issues, character issues ect). Those are large files. I'm also guessing some developers are also pushing map packs and DLC to the main file with updates, and the "DLC" you download from the PSN store is an unlock code to make purchases faster.
TyrantII is offline  
post #4 of 58 Old 12-26-2011, 09:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
jhaines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Need For Speed Hot Pursuit was a bit ridiculous at 300 MB.

The NFS update included all the new cars from the DLC packs so you could see them when other people used them, regardless of whether you had the DLC or not. These aren't all bug fixes.

- Jer
jhaines is offline  
post #5 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Meh.

Walk away and make a cup of coffee.

Also, you don't have to download the update. Hit circle and the game will boot just fine, offline. You do to play online though.

This is not true for every game. NFS did allow to proceed to offline mode. DS2 and WH40000 simply were inoperable until the download had been completed. It's a real pisser when a brand new game is just inaccessible until you endure a vast download. When it's every game you get, that makes me think it is getting out of control.

I suppose it is extra annoying for my particular situation because I'm not exactly the guy with hours of unoccupied time to kill throughout the day. My time is scarce, and when I have managed to block out some time to get some gaming in, a "hundreds of MB" download is really not what I am looking for. That is time I don't get back. My gaming time doesn't just shift later until after the download is completed. It is just lost from that moment in time. To worsen matters, I live in a household where others may/may not be hammering internet access, as well. If they are streaming Netflix video (as they often do), that pretty much precludes any sort of large download. So I now have to schedule this download activity for "low traffic" hours. So it is not as simple as just "grabbing a coffee" (especially when 850 MB ultimately took 2 hrs to complete).

I'm just lamenting the days when you can just put a new game disc into your machine, and [gasp] start playing the game that you bought with the presumption that it is actually a finished and operational product to a reasonable degree.

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is online now  
post #6 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 09:54 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

This is not true for every game. NFS did allow to proceed to offline mode. DS2 and WH40000 simply were inoperable until the download had been completed. It's a real pisser when a brand new game is just inaccessible until you endure a vast download. When it's every game you get, that makes me think it is getting out of control.

Haven't played those games, but are you sure? What happens for people with PS3's that aren't internet connected? They bought a coaster?

Games also carry the newest firmware from when they went to print. So if your system is outdated, you are forced to update the PS3's firmware since the game needs that version to play. Could that be the case?

There's only a few (PSN) games that require an internet connection (and thus update) to play their offline.
TyrantII is offline  
post #7 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 10:12 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
joeblow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 12,196
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 212
Final Fight is the only non-MMO PSN game I know with DRM that forces you to be online just to be able to play offline.

Generally speaking though, patching is the new normal in gaming, from cell phones on up. Other than having something like the PlayStation Plus auto-patch service, we all must simply live with the fact that games will have updates to manually dload. I think it is worth it though; improvements to games (like the well-received free GT5 2.0 patch) is a good thing.

Los Angeles Lakers - 16 NBA Championships!

joeblow is online now  
post #8 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

This is not true for every game. NFS did allow to proceed to offline mode. DS2 and WH40000 simply were inoperable until the download had been completed. It's a real pisser when a brand new game is just inaccessible until you endure a vast download. When it's every game you get, that makes me think it is getting out of control.

I suppose it is extra annoying for my particular situation because I'm not exactly the guy with hours of unoccupied time to kill throughout the day. My time is scarce, and when I have managed to block out some time to get some gaming in, a "hundreds of MB" download is really not what I am looking for. That is time I don't get back. My gaming time doesn't just shift later until after the download is completed. It is just lost from that moment in time. To worsen matters, I live in a household where others may/may not be hammering internet access, as well. If they are streaming Netflix video (as they often do), that pretty much precludes any sort of large download. So I now have to schedule this download activity for "low traffic" hours. So it is not as simple as just "grabbing a coffee" (especially when 850 MB ultimately took 2 hrs to complete).

I'm just lamenting the days when you can just put a new game disc into your machine, and [gasp] start playing the game that you bought with the presumption that it is actually a finished and operational product to a reasonable degree.

I'd have to agree. I don't get to start gaming until the kids are in bed. With the system in the basement and hooked to a PJ it is also impractical to turn it on for a minute to update junk like I can with my phone.

When you've got about 2 hours to play, spending the first 15 minutes doing updates is a pita.

All the same applies for online streaming too. I don't use streaming much on the ps3, so when I do, I always get nagged about updates.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #9 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 12:15 PM
Member
 
MA5CMPB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
This is very true and very annoying. My nephew got a ps3 for xmas, and half the time was spent downloading updates, system software, and game up dates. Resistance 3 was the worst culprit
MA5CMPB is offline  
post #10 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zookster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Other than having something like the PlayStation Plus auto-patch service, we all must simply live with the fact that games will have updates to manually dload. I think it is worth it though; improvements to games (like the well-received free GT5 2.0 patch) is a good thing.

I'm on a free 30-day trial for Plus right now and the first time I turned on the PS3 and a list of everything that had been updated popped up (including backed up game saves), my first thought was "Sweet! I could really get used to something like this."
Zookster is offline  
post #11 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Vortex3D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Mandatory updates when you put a brand new game disc in are really annoying! Ok, I can tolerate 30-50 MB of downloading because you needed to shore up some flaky online play code, but 843 MB?!? Might as well just recall/reissue the game disc because either the game was just not ready for release or there is something serious faulty about your game development. That's a whole lot of code that is evidently broken (looking at you Warhammer 40000 Space Marine).

3 out of 3 games I've bought in the past 2 months needed an update. DeadSpace 2 was a tolerable 50 MB or so. Need For Speed Hot Pursuit was a bit ridiculous at 300 MB. This Warhammer at 843 MB is GD ridiculous!

When did developers lose the ability to develop games that would be stored on an optical disc???

Just shows how broken the game data on the disc. The more gamers accept huge updates, the more out of control it becomes.

If you don't have a lot of hard drive space, you must delete installed and update data from the hard drive. So each time you want to play the game again, wait for install and download large updates.

If you don't want to wait every time, prepare to spend more money to buy a larger hard drive. Then, you fill it up with more trash.

Now the problem becomes how to back up such huge hard drive full of data.

If the game developers did their job properly releasing low bugs games, we wouldn't have to deal with large updates. But that also means gamers must demand well polished games with few bugs. Since gamers are unwilling to demand for polished games and wait, this cycle will keep going forever. Games quality on release will continue to go downhill with full of bugs. Why ensure the game is well polished for shipping if gamers are happy to buy broken product? Gamers complain about games being so buggy and turn around and buy another broken game again. They never learn.

If you wait for the "Complete Edition" a year later, some games have the large updates integrated into the game.

Simple question to gamers. When you go into a store to buy a new game, how many ask how buggy is game known to have? Most gamers just rush to buy the new game and then act like surprised and complain when the game is so buggy. Complaining after already given the publisher your money isn't very effective compared to refuse to buy the buggy game until it's fixed.
Vortex3D is offline  
post #12 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Haven't played those games, but are you sure? What happens for people with PS3's that aren't internet connected? They bought a coaster?

Games also carry the newest firmware from when they went to print. So if your system is outdated, you are forced to update the PS3's firmware since the game needs that version to play. Could that be the case?

There's only a few (PSN) games that require an internet connection (and thus update) to play their offline.

No, my firmware is up to date. You find out pretty quick when your PSN access is cut-off until you update.

As for PS3's that aren't internet connected, obviously it cannot check, so it cannot know there is a game update. It probably will go on to play the disc. I could do that if I really wanted to play, I suppose. Suffice to say, I don't plan on doing that, since it will only need to be connected up all over again for something else. It is unavoidable. Might as well just get it over with. It's still a PITA when a game "needs" hundreds of MB of update material before it will let you run it the first time.

What they really need to do is make background downloading possible for these kinds of situations. If it takes time, then it takes time, but to entirely stone wall the machine until it is over with is really obsolete gen type of thinking, in terms of what should be acceptable in this day and age. I don't know why "themes" have to be handled this way, either. Waiting for themes and game updates to complete are probably my 2 biggest annoyances on the ps3.

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is online now  
post #13 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 62
because they're lazy. that's why we get so many sequels. did you notice that almost every hyped game this year was a sequel. and a third entry at that? yeah, they're really phoning it in as of late. so it's no surprise that they're also releasing unfinished work.

i'm playing assassin's creed: revelations right now and i swear i'm just playing assassin's creed 2. and i skipped brotherhood. so what the hell? just another copy/paste job. can't wait for ps4 so at least i'll have some sweet new graphics to look at.

500 gigs FTW.
blklightning is offline  
post #14 of 58 Old 12-27-2011, 10:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sonies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
yes, so f-ing annoying to get a new game only to have to wait 40+ minutes to dowload GIGABITES of data from the internet... I mean W T F is that all about!
Sonies is offline  
post #15 of 58 Old 12-28-2011, 06:48 AM
Member
 
markdavid570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I get why people get frustrated with this, and my time is fairly limited as well, but ultimately I'd rather have the updates coming and know that I'm playing the most up-to-date game. I like that games can be updated and fixed if needed.

As for AC Revelations being a copy/paste job...well...I didn't play AC2, just AC Brotherhood, and I just started Revelations last night. I've heard that it's basically just an extension of Brotherhood. However...I'm okay with that. I LOVED Brotherhood, so if the new one is just that extended...I'm completely okay with it. There are certain games that are just good at what they do, and I don't want them to be groundbreakingly different...then they'd be a different game. I mean...I want Madden and COD to be what they are.
markdavid570 is offline  
post #16 of 58 Old 12-28-2011, 11:01 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

No, my firmware is up to date. You find out pretty quick when your PSN access is cut-off until you update.

As for PS3's that aren't internet connected, obviously it cannot check, so it cannot know there is a game update. It probably will go on to play the disc. I could do that if I really wanted to play, I suppose. Suffice to say, I don't plan on doing that, since it will only need to be connected up all over again for something else. It is unavoidable. Might as well just get it over with. It's still a PITA when a game "needs" hundreds of MB of update material before it will let you run it the first time.

What they really need to do is make background downloading possible for these kinds of situations. If it takes time, then it takes time, but to entirely stone wall the machine until it is over with is really obsolete gen type of thinking, in terms of what should be acceptable in this day and age. I don't know why "themes" have to be handled this way, either. Waiting for themes and game updates to complete are probably my 2 biggest annoyances on the ps3.

So, like I said. It doesn't need it, it's asking for it.

Hit circle next time and skip the update. The game will boot.

You do need to update to play MP, or to sign into PSN. But if you really, really, really, just want to start the SP you're fine canceling the update and going right into the game, logged out of PSN. I've done it before, and will do it again.

As for MP games, they're constantly tweaked to fix glitches, balance issues, and give additional content. Complaing about things like that getting fixed and updated is kinda weak. I'd rather wait 10 minutes than keep getting killed from some douchenozzle who found out some convoluted way to get under a map to spawn kill me. I do agree with the argument that games sometimes are too buggy, and deplore the fix it later attitude that patches have afforded developers. But there's the flip side of the coin too. A lot of games are MP games where they simply won't know the bugs and balance issues until millions of people get the game and start playing it every way possible.

Dark Souls is a good example, where once it was in the hands of the nerds and geeks of the world, they found convoluted ways to dupe Items, XP, ect. Found glitches and ways around areas, and really showed how unbalanced the game was because the Developers "intent" was thrown out the window with the players "real world play". Patches are great to fix those issues that are hard to protect against before a launch.
TyrantII is offline  
post #17 of 58 Old 12-28-2011, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Zookster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by markdavid570 View Post


As for AC Revelations being a copy/paste job...well...I didn't play AC2, just AC Brotherhood, and I just started Revelations last night. I've heard that it's basically just an extension of Brotherhood. However...I'm okay with that. I LOVED Brotherhood, so if the new one is just that extended...I'm completely okay with it. There are certain games that are just good at what they do, and I don't want them to be groundbreakingly different...then they'd be a different game. I mean...I want Madden and COD to be what they are.

^^This.

Though I haven't started Revelations SP yet, Brotherhood took a huge leap forward over ACII in terms of graphics and gameplay. Even if Revelations isn't such a huge leap, I'll be happy with more of the same, but in a different setting...heck, I even buy all the SP DLC for that reason!

Back on topic: unfortunately there are a number of reports that the latest patch for AC:R (1.02) glitched at least one trophy, Sage, the one requires the most grinding. Fortunately, deleting the game install data and reinstalling the game without the patch before buying the books required for the trophy seems to work.

Obviously the bigger issue with all that is how developers often create new problems with their games when they try to fix others with patches. And because this glitch is trophy related (and only a small minority of gamers even care about it), I would be surprised if it's fixed by Ubisoft unless they have to issue a patch for other issues as well.
Zookster is offline  
post #18 of 58 Old 12-29-2011, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mr. Hanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

So, like I said. It doesn't need it, it's asking for it.

Hit circle next time and skip the update. The game will boot.

No, on certain games, you simply end up back at the dashboard. Deactivating the wifi or pulling the cable would be the only way to bypass in that scenario.

I need your sweet love, Rosetta Stone girl!
Mr. Hanky is online now  
post #19 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 05:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Wurms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

because they're lazy. that's why we get so many sequels. did you notice that almost every hyped game this year was a sequel. and a third entry at that? yeah, they're really phoning it in as of late. so it's no surprise that they're also releasing unfinished work.

i'm playing assassin's creed: revelations right now and i swear i'm just playing assassin's creed 2. and i skipped brotherhood. so what the hell? just another copy/paste job. can't wait for ps4 so at least i'll have some sweet new graphics to look at.

They are not lazy, lol. Its called making a profit off the engine they took 4+ years developing. They spend years making an engine for a IP they beleive will turn into a franchise (Assassins Creed) so they can make multiple games from that engine and get back their development costs. Otherwise you will get a sequel every 4 years rather than 12-18 months. Game development is not cheap. A new IP costs MILLIONS of dollars.

If people keep buying Assassins Creed, and it keeps getting good reviews, why not keep milking it? Why spend millions on a new engine, when the same one will get you the same results (aka millions of copies sold)?

One way to have a completely different Assassins Creed experience with a bit faster turn-around is to borrow an engine and mash Assassins creed into it. Like use Unreal Engine 3 for Assassin's Creed instead of the Anvil Engine to get a sort of Mirrors Edge/Creed mashup. This brings a new experience, but could kill the franchise because its completely different from what millions of consumers are use to and expecting when buying an Assassins Creed title.

BACK TO TOPIC:

Games are huge nowadays, and certain games have strict release date deadlines (Christmas franchises, etc) so QA is on a tight schedule. Sony makes the blu-rays and developers have a schedule, miss it and you have to get back in-line. I dont mind patches to fix bugs they discovered after processing their millions of discs. At least they fix it - for free. I hate DLC on day 1. I just got Need For Speed and now there are cars I can buy on release day for $4.99? WTF? This was already made, and sometimes even on the disc! Not something they conjured up in three weeks. Put that stuff in the release!

"I need it. Buy it. Store it." - Tony Stark
Wurms is offline  
post #20 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 11:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Jdurg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 370
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurms View Post

They are not lazy, lol. Its called making a profit off the engine they took 4+ years developing. They spend years making an engine for a IP they beleive will turn into a franchise (Assassins Creed) so they can make multiple games from that engine and get back their development costs. Otherwise you will get a sequel every 4 years rather than 12-18 months. Game development is not cheap. A new IP costs MILLIONS of dollars.

If people keep buying Assassins Creed, and it keeps getting good reviews, why not keep milking it? Why spend millions on a new engine, when the same one will get you the same results (aka millions of copies sold)?

One way to have a completely different Assassins Creed experience with a bit faster turn-around is to borrow an engine and mash Assassins creed into it. Like use Unreal Engine 3 for Assassin's Creed instead of the Anvil Engine to get a sort of Mirrors Edge/Creed mashup. This brings a new experience, but could kill the franchise because its completely different from what millions of consumers are use to and expecting when buying an Assassins Creed title.

BACK TO TOPIC:

Games are huge nowadays, and certain games have strict release date deadlines (Christmas franchises, etc) so QA is on a tight schedule. Sony makes the blu-rays and developers have a schedule, miss it and you have to get back in-line. I dont mind patches to fix bugs they discovered after processing their millions of discs. At least they fix it - for free. I hate DLC on day 1. I just got Need For Speed and now there are cars I can buy on release day for $4.99? WTF? This was already made, and sometimes even on the disc! Not something they conjured up in three weeks. Put that stuff in the release!

Very well stated. The games today on the PS3 are not the same thing as the games we played on our NES or Sega Master Systems. Those games were comparatively simple compared to modern games, and far smaller in size. In addition, there really wasn't a used game market out there requiring companies to push out dozens of games each year/quarter in order to earn some profit on the initial sales. I mean, I think the NES had about 800 games released for it during the near decade it was around. The PS3 already has close to that and has been around for about half the time.

If you want to get better games out there, then you need to stop buying used games which results in ZERO money going back to the developer. You need to purchase numerous games and DLC each year in order to keep the developers in the black so that they have more funding to spend on new IP, and aren't required to just re-hash the same exact idea over and over and over again in order to keep development costs low.

The updates that we see are just the nature of the gaming industry today. If you continue to want expansive multiplayer online gaming, graphically intensive games, aurally immersive games, complex engines, etc., you need to accept the fact that game updates will be needed as the code simply cannot be tested in the time constraints the industry is under.

TLR; The gaming industry today isn't what it used to be. Deadlines, need for profit, used game industry, and countless other factors have resulted in the situation we see now.
Jdurg is offline  
post #21 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 06:24 AM
Senior Member
 
Wurms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Even NES games had major bugs. Do you honestly think they meant for the bad guy in Double Dragon to get stuck in the beams so you can beat em for 10 minutes with a baseball bat to unlock all your moves? Thats a bug. They couldnt fix it.

5:20 approx for bug I described above.



Mario getting so many lives with the turtle shell trick that the numbers eventually turn into weird shapes? Thats a bug.

There are multiple games I remember my 2D sprites getting stuck and I had to reset, or I fall off the map, or some other weird thing happened. Wasnt a big deal then cause they looked like, well, 2D sprites. Restart and play the level again.

Now the same bugs look atrocious because the graphics are closer to reality. How lame would it be if a guy in Uncharted got stuck in a certain tree and you hit him a million times to get unlimited guns and ammo? Back then it was called a "cheat", "code", "trick" and magazines had an entire section devoted to them. Now its a bug and people scream "HOW COULD THEY RELEASE THIS GAME IN THIS STATE!?"

In a game like Skyrim (with its share of bugs), I have had 70 hours of fun compared to the maybe 1 hour of time I spent with freezes/reset/reboots/other various bugs that wasted my time (dead quests). Thats 70:1 on the fun to pissed off scale. Not too shabby And odds I will take with any game.

"I need it. Buy it. Store it." - Tony Stark
Wurms is offline  
post #22 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 10:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
jhaines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurms View Post

In a game like Skyrim (with its share of bugs), I have had 70 hours of fun compared to the maybe 1 hour of time I spent with freezes/reset/reboots/other various bugs that wasted my time (dead quests). Thats 70:1 on the fun to pissed off scale. Not too shabby And odds I will take with any game.

I have a difficult time with this rationalization. How many other products in your life would you tolerate this amount of bugginess from? If your TV or watch randomly didn't work for 1 hour out of every 70 that you tried to use it, would you stand for that? What if it was your car, or your phone? What if you owned a movie or CD that made your entertainment system puke on a regular basis?

Bethesda's games have a reputation for being far buggier than most other games on the market, and that reputation has most certainly been earned. Yet people continue to buy their incredibly buggy games, and they continue to win game of the year awards for them, so what incentive do they have to ever change their ways?

It's true that the volume of bugs tends to scale proportionally with the amount of content in a software product, but bug injection and removal is driven by the quality of the overall development process. Improve the process and your quality will also improve proportionally. There are a number of processes out there that, if followed diligently, will realize drastic improvements in the quality of their products -- they just need to acknowledge that they have a problem and elect to do something about it.

- Jer
jhaines is offline  
post #23 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 11:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
confidenceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaines View Post

Bethesda's games have a reputation for being far buggier than most other games on the market, and that reputation has most certainly been earned. Yet people continue to buy their incredibly buggy games, and they continue to win game of the year awards for them, so what incentive do they have to ever change their ways?

Gamers buy Bethesda's games because they also have a reputation for making incredible games--despite the bugs.

Quote:


It's true that the volume of bugs tends to scale proportionally with the amount of content in a software product, but bug injection and removal is driven by the quality of the overall development process. Improve the process and your quality will also improve proportionally.

Not true. The reality is that there are finite resources within a given budget, a given employee pool, and a given timeframe. Bethesda chooses to devote more of that resource pool into things other than bug correction--particularly given the scope of their games. The amount of time, money, and manpower it would take just to find the simplest of bugs becomes unreasonable. It's not about "improving the process." It's about allocating finite resources.

Unfortunately, now that their games have become more popular and that they've moved solidly away from a PC-centric development environment, their devotion to content and world-building (at the expense of thorough and resource-heavy bug passes) is now catching up with them.

This is the first Elder Scrolls game that they've made that didn't use PC as the lead platform. It's the first that was multiplatform at launch. Fallout 3 was intentionally limited in its scope and length in order to make console development much easier. Skyrim is an attempt to bring the scope of their PC RPGs to consoles. And I'd argue that it's largely a success.

This isn't a defense, but merely an explanation. And if it weren't for the ability of developers to patch games post-release, not only would we have more broken games, but developers wouldn't even be able to make games like Skyrim (or Modern Warfare, or any big game). The current state of Skyrim on PS3 is unforgivable, but it also makes sense. Bethesda clearly bit off more than they could chew. But the alternative was to outsource it (like they did with the PS3 version of Oblivion and with Fallout New Vegas). They decided they wanted to do it themselves. It's a commendable attempt. But it blew up in their faces.

And I'll be the first to admit that I would never buy a Bethesda game on PS3. I've been playing Skyrim on the other HD console and I've run into only a handful of minor bugs in over 80hrs of play. In my experience, Skyrim is less buggy than any other Elder Scrolls game they've ever made (and I've played them all). And to be even more honest, if I didn't already own the other console, I would probably have been willing to shell out the extra cash for one just so I could play Skyrim. It's that good.

Quote:


How many other products in your life would you tolerate this amount of bugginess from? If your TV or watch randomly didn't work for 1 hour out of every 70 that you tried to use it, would you stand for that? What if it was your car, or your phone? What if you owned a movie or CD that made your entertainment system puke on a regular basis?

Games can't be compared to other products. For many reasons, they can't be bug-free at launch. They're too big. There are too many moving parts. There are too many unpredictable quirks. Either we gamers are okay with this fact of modern gaming, or we won't get any more large-scale AAA games.

Rather than thinking of games as complete "products" like television displays or cars or phones, it's more appropriate to think of them like services similar to public transit, internet service, or cable lines. They need to be maintained, improved, upgraded, and tweaked regularly (or at least during their biggest sales period within the first 3-6 mos). If you don't want regular long-to-download patches and updates, stick to smaller games.

PSN & XBL ID: drop me a private message
confidenceman is offline  
post #24 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 12:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
jhaines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Not true. The reality is that there are finite resources within a given budget, a given employee pool, and a given timeframe. Bethesda chooses to devote more of that resource pool into things other than bug correction--particularly given the scope of their games. The amount of time, money, and manpower it would take just to find the simplest of bugs becomes unreasonable. It's not about "improving the process." It's about allocating finite resources.

I've been doing professional software development for 15 years, and your claims about the time required to identify and eliminate defects would only be true if you only attempted to find them during testing alone. If that's what Bethesda is doing, then there's clearly room for vast process improvements, and your claim falls apart. If that's not what Bethesda is doing, then your understanding is fundamentally flawed, and your claim still falls apart.

There is indisputable industry data showing that rigorous application of bug identification and removal processes throughout development can give a twentyfold or higher improvement in product quality, and reduce testing time by an amount that more than makes up for the additional development time. In other words, the same content can be completed faster, and with significantly higher quality. I've seen this applied myself with results in line with overall industry data. The thing is, many developers lean toward more of a cowboy approach that is much more prone to introducing bugs, and they see a more regimented process as "cramping their style". Perhaps that's the culture at Bethesda -- I don't know. But whatever they're doing now clearly isn't working.

You are correct that any project has finite resources, and Bethesda has not chosen to focus resources on defect removal in an effective way. But the rest of your conclusions above are demonstrably incorrect.

Quote:


Games can't be compared to other products. For many reasons, they can't be bug-free at launch. They're too big. There are too many moving parts. There are too many unpredictable quirks. Either we gamers are okay with this fact of modern gaming, or we won't get any more large-scale AAA games.

This is the conventional wisdom, but the data doesn't actually back it up. It is entirely possible for very large software products to release with few or no bugs in the same span of time it would take to release a buggy piece of crap. Intuit turned their Quicken franchise around several years ago after sales dropped off due to the bugginess of their product, and they did it through rigorous application of process. Vicarious Visions has applied similar process improvements in gaming circles.

Quote:


Rather than thinking of games as complete "products" like television displays or cars or phones, it's more appropriate to think of them like services similar to public transit, internet service, or cable lines. They need to be maintained, improved, upgraded, and tweaked regularly (or at least during their biggest sales period within the first 3-6 mos). If you don't want regular long-to-download patches and updates, stick to smaller games.

This is what they're turning into, since internet connectivity has made it easier for consoles to slip into the same lazy patchfest that PC games have. Unfortunately, the sad truth is that patches are disproportionately more likely to introduce new defects in the attempt to fix pre-existing ones, so it's much more time-efficient to catch those issues before release.

And as long as we continue to tolerate being sold broken, incomplete products, that is exactly what we will continue to be fed. You can only vote with your wallet.

- Jer
jhaines is offline  
post #25 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 01:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
confidenceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 37
^^^ Good response. But I'd still argue that what Bethesda is doing is, in fact, working for gamers and for themselves. The bugginess is totally acceptable on PC and 360. They just shouldn't develop for PS3. The issue on PS3 is seemingly more fundamental than just some "bug." The platform makes them money, but it's hurting their reputation, and PS3 owners will be less likely to buy expansions and future Bethesda games. They had no business releasing the PS3 version of Skyrim in its current state. And considering how long it's taking them to get a functional patch out (if they ever do fix it), it shows just how unprepared they were to do anything about it. They clearly need to stick to platforms they're comfortable with until they get a stronger PS3 team and/or better tools to do multiplatform development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaines View Post

You can only vote with your wallet.

I can only disagree with this sentiment so many times. The most immediate problem is that the gaming press is broken. If consumers could be properly and professionally informed prior to a purchase, then the idea of "voting with your wallet" might make some sense. As is, that simply doesn't work. The only way to be a wise game consumer is to rent everything before you buy it (or wait until your friends have all gotten tired of it or wait until after the online population has died out). But renting is becoming impractical for many reasons, and game publishers are making it moreso with the advent of Online Passes.

Game consumers are often forced to take risks on purchases without being able to "vote" intelligently. Publishers are asking consumers to bear all the financial risk (and they wonder why gamers are ditching big-budget games for cheap iOS games ).

PSN & XBL ID: drop me a private message
confidenceman is offline  
post #26 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 04:24 PM
Senior Member
 
drummernrg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
While I have to agree with the original poster's sentiments (that multiple games have required many megabytes of patches) is certainly an inconvenience, it is a minor one.

I don't have a very fast Internet connection (but it is good enough), plus my PS3 is behind a wireless router, which further diminishes network responsiveness. So I've never really been able to enjoy streaming video services unless I buffer a lot or download the whole thing. My point is that I'm sensitive to anything over 100MB download, including firmware updates.

But when we have some games nearly filling a 50GB blu-ray, we are seeing patches that are well under 1% of the content, and I would rather have patches then not at all. This wasn't a possibility on consoles before the Internet, but as we evolve to gaming in the cloud, it will be required.

Most games haven't required them for offline play, so I'm okay with that.

However, after reading this thread, I'll probably fire up AC:Rev during dinner to download the patches, I was looking forward to opening it up tonight.
drummernrg is offline  
post #27 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurms View Post



Mario getting so many lives with the turtle shell trick that the numbers eventually turn into weird shapes? Thats a bug.

how dare you try to crush my childhood memories like that?

500 gigs FTW.
blklightning is offline  
post #28 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurms View Post

I hate DLC on day 1. I just got Need For Speed and now there are cars I can buy on release day for $4.99? WTF? This was already made, and sometimes even on the disc! Not something they conjured up in three weeks. Put that stuff in the release!

it's like any other industry that starts turning ridiculous profits. once that happens, the top execs in those industries can't help themselves in trying to increase their margins. it's sad that instead of giving the consumers (the ones that got them there in the first place) something back, all they can do is think of ways to further milk said consumer while giving less value for the dollar than ever before. thankfully, the answer to this is gamefly.

500 gigs FTW.
blklightning is offline  
post #29 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 05:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
confidenceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

it's like any other industry that starts turning ridiculous profits. once that happens, the top execs in those industries can't help themselves in trying to increase their margins. it's sad that instead of giving the consumers (the ones that got them there in the first place) something back, all they can do is think of ways to further milk said consumer while giving less value for the dollar than ever before. thankfully, the answer to this is gamefly.

Plenty of companies do the exact opposite. Burnout Paradise and GT5 are probably the best examples of games by developers who "give back" a ton to their fans. Sure, there are companies that act like bastards, but being a bastard won't pay off in the long run.

And there are plenty of devs/pubs who fall somewhere in-between, those who are really generous with content and support, but who still charge (fair) prices for additional content (Media Molecule, Valve, Bethesda, Harmonix, Guerilla, and so on).

But 90% of pubs are real bastards about it. Short-term gains mean long-term losses. But most publishers don't seem to care, and they continue to drive the AAA business into the ground. It's the "slash and burn" approach to games publishing. Developers and consumers suffer (through lost jobs and higher prices, respectively), while publishers quietly move into mobile publishing where they can do the same thing all over again.

PSN & XBL ID: drop me a private message
confidenceman is offline  
post #30 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 09:04 PM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
Bethesda is a horrible choice.

They released a game on the PS3 with a fatal development design decision and rationalized it away as "well, they can always restart their progress". Thats horrible, horrible development any way you slice it. At some point, because of a decision on how to implement persistence, their games will and do crap out on both the PS3 and 360. Since the main quest and quite a few side quests can be completed before that point, they say no foul. try to do everything they put in the game, and you're SOL.

They're good at creating some amazing game content, but their engine / development skills are very, very low par to let things like that happen. Especially since it's a known issue through 4 games and two engines and nothing was implemented to do the same thing, but in a way that didn't break the game. Not to mention that open world games, by design, need to developed with how to get around persistence issues in mind.

Bethesda totally failed there. As far as PC is concerned they're more in line with Rockstar, letting brute force PC power fix any issues they don't want to fix with finesse.
TyrantII is offline  
Reply PlayStation Area

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off