"Kara" - Quantic Dream's amazing new PS3 tech demo - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quantum Dream, developer of the sleeper hit Heavy Rain is working on their next project. No word on the game itself yet, but here is a fantastic demo that shows off the tech that will be used.





Here is a video interview with David Cage about the project.

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post #2 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 04:56 PM
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Incredible. As long as David Cage doesn't write it himself and hires much better voice actors, it could be great.

Also, not sure I'd call Heavy Rain a "sleeper hit" since that implies that sales picked up over time due to word of mouth. I'd say it was more in the "modest financial success" category--one that "divided critics and gamers."

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post #3 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 05:39 PM
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A nice short film, and very impressive as a demonstration of performance capture. But what does "running in real-time on PS3" mean in this context? Would it be possible to move the camera around during the dialogue?
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post #4 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TedSeattle View Post

A nice short film, and very impressive as a demonstration of performance capture. But what does "running in real-time on PS3" mean in this context? Would it be possible to move the camera around during the dialogue?

Not sure. But it at least sounds like they're saying that it's being rendered in real time, similar to the cutscenes in Uncharted 2 and 3. So, no, you couldn't move the camera or anything, but everything you see is (supposedly) being rendered in real time on PS3.

Regardless, I'm impressed. It's a well presented and well written short. If they can keep that level of investment up for a whole game (through good writing and good VO) and use Heavy Rain's style of input commands, I'm sold. I am a little creeped out by how young and boyish the woman looks, but I think that's the point.

Heavy Rain was such a colossal piece of crap (in terms of the story, dialogue, and acting), but the input style was fantastic and so were the visuals. Hopefully whatever they cook up next they decide to put some real effort into telling a good story using actors who aren't trying to disguise their native accents.

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post #5 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Heavy Rain was such a colossal piece of crap (in terms of the story, dialogue, and acting), but the input style was fantastic and so were the visuals. Hopefully whatever they cook up next they decide to put some real effort into telling a good story using actors who aren't trying to disguise their native accents.

Heh, I felt the polar opposite.

I thought the story was interesting and fun, while the whole game QTE was horrible to the point of not even really being a game. At that point, just go back to the point and click of old PC action adventure titles...

Some dialogue was pretty bad, but thats due to the Frenchies being too stubborn to hire English VA's.
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post #6 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TedSeattle View Post

A nice short film, and very impressive as a demonstration of performance capture. But what does "running in real-time on PS3" mean in this context? Would it be possible to move the camera around during the dialogue?

Yep, that's exactly what running in real time means. They could move the camera at any time if they wanted. The demo was done using their new "game" engine on the PS3 and was being rendered on the fly.

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post #7 of 23 Old 03-07-2012, 10:39 PM
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Some dialogue was pretty bad, but thats due to the Frenchies being too stubborn to hire English VA's.

I'm going to sound like a total ass for saying this but: I don't know how anyone with half a brain could possibly be okay with that story, let alone enjoy it.

Most games have silly, paradoxical, contradictory plots, but they don't aspire to seriousness, nor do they foreground story as much as Heavy Rain. It was a game full of way too many cheats, contradictions, unfair twists, paradoxes, and plot holes. It's like it was written by a ten year old.

The voice acting was barely distracting in comparison.

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Yep, that's exactly what running in real time means. They could move the camera at any time if they wanted.

That's not what that means. Plenty of games render cutscenes in real time, but they can be too graphics intensive to allow for camera control given the PS3's limited specs. Uncharted 2 is an example. By locking the camera in place they can kick up the poly count, texture quality, etc. Same with this tech demo.

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post #8 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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That's increasing the visual punch in non-interactive, real time scenes. Because it is pre-determined doesn't take away from its real time nature. When crafting a scene like that, the director is in full control of the camera, not unlike a film director.

Once everything is locked in, they don't have to worry about A.I., player interaction, unpredictable camera angles, etc. so resources are freed up which allows them to spice up the in-engine graphics.

Some games in the past, like the Soul Calibur series, have allowed the player to input limited commands (similar to QTE) during these kind of real-time cut scenes. Even then the visual results upon successful (or unsuccessful) input were still heavily scripted, but the game camera still responded accordingly to show the results. Most times though, they are non-interactive. You can't interact at all with fully pre-rendered scenes because they take a lot of time to "paint" the visuals unlike real-time engines.

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I'm going to sound like a total ass for saying this but: I don't know how anyone with half a brain could possibly be okay with that story, let alone enjoy it.

Predicting you would crap over it is easier than predicting the weather. That's what you often come here to do.

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 01:04 AM
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I'm pretty sure the poster up above was asking if someone playing/watching the demo could control the camera. The answer is no. That's not what "real time" means. It just means its being rendered natively by the PS3 rather than simply playing a pre-rendered video. But no one has (or could have) control over the camera on the PS3.

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post #10 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 07:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Most games have silly, paradoxical, contradictory plots, but they don't aspire to seriousness, nor do they foreground story as much as Heavy Rain. It was a game full of way too many cheats, contradictions, unfair twists, paradoxes, and plot holes. It's like it was written by a ten year old.

Meh, maybe you just don't like thrillers? I've seen much worse movies then what we got in HR. It wasn't unique or new, but it also wasn't the worse in the genre as far as stories go.

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Yep, that's exactly what running in real time means. They could move the camera at any time if they wanted*. The demo was done using their new "game" engine on the PS3 and was being rendered on the fly.

*
A lot of times when cutscenes are rendered in game, the only thing being rendered is anything that is in the cameras FOV, to allow them to make them look even better then the game and to save resources. So while the engine is doing it, if you moved the camera around it look more like a virtual set than when you are playing in game. Minor qualm, but it is a bit different.

Not all do it that way either, but it's a nice little trick to put in more detail then you are usually allowed.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I'm going to sound like a total ass for saying this but: I don't know how anyone with half a brain could possibly be okay with that story, let alone enjoy it.

Most games have silly, paradoxical, contradictory plots, but they don't aspire to seriousness, nor do they foreground story as much as Heavy Rain. It was a game full of way too many cheats, contradictions, unfair twists, paradoxes, and plot holes. It's like it was written by a ten year old.

I loved Heavy Rain because of its uniqueness, but I have to agree with your assessment of the plot holes and contradictions. They left a lot of things unexplained. The blackouts, in particular.

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post #12 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Meh, maybe you just don't like thrillers? I've seen much worse movies then what we got in HR. It wasn't unique or new, but it also wasn't the worse in the genre as far as stories go.



*
A lot of times when cutscenes are rendered in game, the only thing being rendered is anything that is in the cameras FOV, to allow them to make them look even better then the game and to save resources. So while the engine is doing it, if you moved the camera around it look more like a virtual set than when you are playing in game. Minor qualm, but it is a bit different.

Not all do it that way either, but it's a nice little trick to put in more detail then you are usually allowed.


Yep, that was some of what I was pointing out. It's somewhat like LoD (Level of Detail) where a princess in a game could look very detailed in her regal outfit and jeweled crown up close, but if she is far away from the player's camera the game will switch to a low-polygon model of the princess with far less detail than the one up close so the game engine doesn't have to worry about rendering to much on the fly. Still, the distinction of real time vs. pre-rendered is still important because once a scene transitions from a non (or limited) interactive, real-time cut scene to a fully interactive gameplay sequence, the loss of detail is not as dramatic as it is when games transition from pre-rendered cut scenes. This is because the real-time cut scenes use all of the native assets of the game itself with extra polish put on.

We see this in Gran Turismo 5's replay mode. After you finish a race, you can see everything you did from a third-person point of view with extra pizzaz added to the graphics. Unlike a pre-rendered scene, each replay is rendered on the fly in real-time, which can only be done well with power of the system it is on as well as the talent of the programmers to make it happen.

Can a camera be fully controlled by the player in these scenes? It is give and take. As more interactivity, A.I., etc. is "turned on", less detail is added. The GT5 cars look just as fantastic parked in the various location scenes, and you have full control of the camera to view them at any angle since the engine isn't worried about an entire track or other cars. Take an in-game picture and the even more post-processing detail (like improved lighting and extra AA) is added to the static image because the engine no longer worries about the camera angle being moved.

Except for the low resolution, even the PSOne could display decent looking pre-rendered, non real-time videos and cutscenes because making them happens on rendering computers and not the PSOne which can't produce good looking real-time graphics.

~~~~

Tying all this in tio Kara video, one thing that's interesting to me is comparing the stunning visuals of the Heavy Rain game to the real-time Heavy Rain "Audition" video we all saw well before it came out






The fully interactive game looks better than the original, non-interactive trailer, which points to the great talent of the developer. I have no doubt that whatever their new project is will be a visual, gaming and storytelling treat.

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post #13 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 09:23 AM
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This looks pretty cool. Great bit of acting by the voice of Kara. I wonder if they will put in some camera and effects controls when they release it on PSN? Like that Killzone 3 ad with the slow-mo bullet.

In defense of Heavy Rain, the folks that did the mocap did their characters voices so the lip-synch would match better. It's obvious that English is a third language for many of the actors but it's easy to ignore. Hell, if we're gonna nitpick voice acting and writing then we might as well quit playing games all together. Games are an experience, and Heavy Rain is a cool experience warts and all. I'm down for the next one.

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post #14 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Meh, maybe you just don't like thrillers? I've seen much worse movies then what we got in HR. It wasn't unique or new, but it also wasn't the worse in the genre as far as stories go.

I actually love thrillers, spy movies, film noir, police procedurals, detective fiction, etc. Anything with a good, convoluted plot. That's why I hated Heavy Rain so much. I was thoroughly disgusted. My wife couldn't believe I kept playing it because she'd hear me shouting at the screen every five minutes about some horrible "cheat" in the plot. I'm sure I (and others) have already posted at length somewhere around here about the many wrong turns the plot took.

Regardless, it looked great, and I really liked the creative approach to control input. It never felt like a QTE to me as much as it felt like a deeper engagement in the immediate action. I also really liked the "play the ball where it lies" attitude. Save games often break games for me, so I often adopt my own "play the ball where it lies" approach. It was refreshing to see a developer do this themselves.

Quantic Dream deserves massive amounts of credit for what they've done (and continue to do) right. But David Cage is a talentless hack when it comes to writing. He's the M. Night Shyamalan of game design. Like Shyamalan, he needs to hand those particular reins to someone who knows what they're doing and focus instead on what he does well. Unfortunately for us all, both Cage and Shyamalan are too egotistical to give up that control, and both believe that people just "don't get it" when it comes to their awful skills as writers.

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post #15 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 05:08 PM
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okay, i don't remember how to put spoiler tags into posts. so don't read if you don't want spoilers.

if they had [spoiler_tag]killed her, then it would have been much more impactful. but since they wussed out, it lost me. i was into it until he let her go. ooh, a robot that thinks it's alive. yeah, i've seen i, robot already. what i've never seen is a robot die and actually cared that it died. and they could have done that, but they didn't. [/spoiler_tag] so in the end, this went from possibly brilliant to just meh.

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post #16 of 23 Old 03-08-2012, 09:38 PM
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okay, i don't remember how to put spoiler tags into posts. so don't read if you don't want spoilers.

if they had
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
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killed her, then it would have been much more impactful. but since they wussed out, it lost me. i was into it until he let her go. ooh, a robot that thinks it's alive. yeah, i've seen i, robot already. what i've never seen is a robot die and actually cared that it died. and they could have done that, but they didn't.
so in the end, this went from possibly brilliant to just meh.

Ha. First off, spoiler tags are easy. Just write "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in the brackets.

Second, the movie version of I, Robot is far, far from the first piece of fiction to deal with this (not to mention that the film I, Robot was very loosely based on a series of Asimov stories from the 1950s). But the fact that it was the first and most memorable version of that story for you suggests that it's a story that can keep being told and can seem new. The idea of the "thinking robot" is very, very old. It exists in ancient Greece, medieval folk tales, renaissance stories, and most famously in Mary Shelley's 19th century novel Frankenstein. And in the 20th c. the story's been told in film since the earliest days of film (Murnau's Metropolis was made in 1927).

My point is, it's a story with a lot of legs. It's been retold and retold thousands of times for thousands of years. I have no problem with seeing yet another version of that premise as long as they do something new and interesting with it.

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post #17 of 23 Old 03-15-2012, 09:59 PM
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Say what you will about Heavy Rain, but I think you have to give Quantic Dream their props. These guys are doing something truly unique in the video game space. I enjoyed much of Heavy Rain, but it did have it's share of problems. The voice acting was probably the single biggest problem. It appears this time they will have the right people doing the VO, so it should be significantly improved.


The only thing that really sucks, is that it's going to be 2014 before their next game comes out. The PS3 will be pretty long in the tooth by then, but it does look like they are pushing the limits of the PS3, at least visually.
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-27-2012, 02:11 PM
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post #19 of 23 Old 03-27-2012, 06:28 PM
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If you've actually worked with a real-time 3D rendering engine that doesn't use some bizarre technological approach, you know that camera position, rotation, aspect ratio, etc., are absolutely trivial to change at any time, and have no impact whatsoever on the performance of the rendering unless you choose a view that causes a drastic difference in the complexity of the scene.

TyrantII came the closest to getting it right -- if a cutscene is rendered in real time, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to manipulate the camera any way you wanted to if you had access to the engine. The only reasons to prevent it would be to follow the director's artistic vision, or to allow the team to only create enough scenery to fill the view from that particular vantage point.

There's nothing about camera control that would force you to have a lower polygon count unless you were up against system-wide resource constraints for accessing the graphical assets. If you can render a scene of known complexity from one angle, you can render it from any angle without a meaningful difference in performance.

I really don't understand why people would try to offer answers about this that are so obviously wrong to anyone with even a passing understanding of how the tech actually works. There's no shame in admitting the limits of your own knowledge. And yes, I take my own advice.

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post #20 of 23 Old 03-27-2012, 10:02 PM
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If you've actually worked with a real-time 3D rendering engine that doesn't use some bizarre technological approach, you know that camera position, rotation, aspect ratio, etc., are absolutely trivial to change at any time, and have no impact whatsoever on the performance of the rendering unless you choose a view that causes a drastic difference in the complexity of the scene.

TyrantII came the closest to getting it right -- if a cutscene is rendered in real time, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to manipulate the camera any way you wanted to if you had access to the engine. The only reasons to prevent it would be to follow the director's artistic vision, or to allow the team to only create enough scenery to fill the view from that particular vantage point.

There's nothing about camera control that would force you to have a lower polygon count unless you were up against system-wide resource constraints for accessing the graphical assets. If you can render a scene of known complexity from one angle, you can render it from any angle without a meaningful difference in performance.

I really don't understand why people would try to offer answers about this that are so obviously wrong to anyone with even a passing understanding of how the tech actually works. There's no shame in admitting the limits of your own knowledge. And yes, I take my own advice.

- Jer

Ha!

I don't think anyone here was debating that. The question was whether or not we on the user end could manipulate the camera in real-time as everything was being rendered. Very different question.

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post #21 of 23 Old 03-28-2012, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I don't think anyone here was debating that. The question was whether or not we on the user end could manipulate the camera in real-time as everything was being rendered. Very different question.

I think if you re-read the posts, you'll see that people (yourself included) went far beyond a discussion of whether they mapped the controller inputs to the camera angle or not. That particular point is so trivial that there's not much to discuss. It was the discussion of why that might be the case that got into the baseless speculation about how 3D rendering supposedly worked, and had people making embarrassingly incorrect assertions about those details.

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post #22 of 23 Old 03-28-2012, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jhaines View Post

I think if you re-read the posts, you'll see that people (yourself included) went far beyond a discussion of whether they mapped the controller inputs to the camera angle or not. That particular point is so trivial that there's not much to discuss. It was the discussion of why that might be the case that got into the baseless speculation about how 3D rendering supposedly worked, and had people making embarrassingly incorrect assertions about those details.

- Jer

I guess I must have been having a different conversation than I thought I was having. Sort of like sleep talking and just as nonsensical and irrelevant.

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post #23 of 23 Old 03-29-2012, 09:11 AM
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Filled with Spoilers -

I loved HR. One of my top 3 PS3 games probably. I've recommended it to three people, each one of them loved it as well. I think I cared at the time about some of the holes...but in the end it didnt really matter why Ethan blacked out, or that it seemed like the developer found out he wanted Shelly to the the killer right around the same time we all did...All that mattered was that it was a good attempt to do something different. To tell a story that didnt have zombies, one that made you think. I really didn't know if I wanted to murder the guy in the shark episode. I had to pause when deciding to chop my finger off...I never have to pause to hit triangle to switch to the shotgun in COD.

A few hours in and I didnt even notice the weak VO's and sometimes creepy facial expressions...for the most part I forgot I was playing a game. To me...thats the ultimate compliment to the game.

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