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post #91 of 272 Old 07-19-2012, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post

Do you really think there's a platter 16gb drive in there? I'm guessing it's some sort of flash memory. Could be as simple as an SD card on an adapter. I've seen this sort of thing in some older tablets, there was a CF card on an IDE adapter inside.
Let's hope it isn't Vita memory stick.
I think you misunderstood. We're assuming that the 16gb sku would have on board flash memory and an empty drive bay for a standard hdd.

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post #92 of 272 Old 07-19-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post

They will love being paid to upgrade 16GB PS3 model. (Yes, unplug the old drive and insert the new drive and make sure the firmware is intact.)

I was responding to this, but you made my point for me. There won't be an old drive to unplug.
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post #93 of 272 Old 07-19-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

If less savvy consumers can figure out how to swap the 360 HDDs and swap the Wii's SD cards, Sony should be able to figure out an easy method for swapping HDDs on newer PS3s. It's pretty easy as is, but some folks might be intimidated by having to buy specific types of HDDs. If Sony can manufacture and distribute their own brand of HDDs, then I'm certain that less savvy consumers would feel more confident with the whole process.

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Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post

Do you really think there's a platter 16gb drive in there? I'm guessing it's some sort of flash memory. Could be as simple as an SD card on an adapter. I've seen this sort of thing in some older tablets, there was a CF card on an IDE adapter inside.
Let's hope it isn't Vita memory stick.

I wouldn't mind seeing Sony branded SATA hard drive marketed for PS3. Whoever hard drive brand they use, it's still one of the easiest thing to do.

At least I know Microsoft used a larger hard drive and then cripple the usage size on the original Xbox. If Sony uses flash memory, they still need to convert the IO to work with SATA. In the end, which is cheaper? Get the smallest SATA hard drive from less known supplier, cripple the usage space to 16GB or convert some type of flash memory to work with SATA. As someone asked about single platter capacity. Sony wouldn't be using the latest platter density since it's more expensive. What's the most common single platter capacity today? I think hard drive still make more sense because if Sony wants to provide 100% usage 16GB, they need a larger hard drive. On 20GB PS3 model, the actual usable hard drive space after formatted on PS3 is only 15GB. So, with a 16GB PS3, you can assume only 11GB of the formatted hard drive on PS3 is usable because it also needs some space for the firmware. So, if Sony wants a true 16GB usable hard drive on 16GB PS3 model, they can easily allocate more usable space around 21-22GB (before formatted) from a hard drive. I think I'm thinking too deep here for a simple low end consumer PS3. Whatever Sony decides to use, I may pick up one someday because I always want to put in a larger hard drive myself. Always hate if the machine already came with a decent sized hard drive.
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post #94 of 272 Old 07-20-2012, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post

I think I'm thinking too deep here for a simple low end consumer PS3.

Yup.

When was the last time you saw something marketed as a XXgb HDD to ACTUALLY have that much usable space?
Never? Sounds right to me.

Theres no reason from a business standpoint to do what you're saying. 16gb is 16gb. Whether you have 11 or 16 usable doesn't matter, it says 16gb on the box so thats what it is.

If they were going to do something like you suggest...they would call it a 20gb HDD and claim you're getting more for the money.

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post #95 of 272 Old 07-21-2012, 11:41 AM
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Eh I think it's a bad idea personally to start to introduce severe storage limits in the system like this. Sure you had the original 20GB but that was also almost six years ago and I highly doubt many are still out there and if so were bought up by more savvy gamers who immediately upgraded the HDD. This just seems to me like a bit of a desperate move to get a cheaper system out there to compete solely on price. If mandatory installs weren't required by so many games it wouldn't be an issue. As it is if you own multiple games that require installs and like to play them off and on, it's either delete and reinstall the game or get an HDD (doesn't include if you buy PSN games). Again this wouldn't be an issue if not for two reasons. One, casuals buying this won't really install HDDs (but then again if all they play is the newest CoD I guess it won't matter) and Two, the prices of HDDs have increased, making this a worse value proposition. I guess though if it allows them to either match or undercut the 360s price this holiday (that'd be a first) then more power to them. I personally think it looks kinda cool. This means you probably need to top shelf the system to get at the disc bay or at least have enough clearance to get your hand in there. Probably not an issue for most people.

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post #96 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 10:46 AM
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Large mandatory installs are not that common. Less than 20% of my games have what I would consider "big" installs. Many casual games have no install.

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post #97 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

Eh I think it's a bad idea personally to start to introduce severe storage limits in the system like this.
As long as Sony creates a very clear upgrade path for consumers, this isn't a problem. If it hasn't been a problem for the 360 or Wii or DS or 3DS or PSP or PS Vita (which all also have "severe storage limits"), I don't see why it would be a problem for a PS3 sku.

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post #98 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 04:51 PM
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I think it's a great idea. They will have the cheapest HD console available. I would definitely recommend it over the Xbox arcade.
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post #99 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 06:35 PM
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-23-super-slim-ps3-announcement-to-miss-gamescom-report

Sony will not announce the much-rumoured "super slim" PS3-4000 model at Gamescom, a new report suggests.

The PlayStation manufacturer has delayed the planned reveal due to high stock levels of the current PlayStation 3, VG247 stated.

Previous reports have outed three varieties of the new model: 16GB, 250GB and 500GB.

The 16GB version will use flash-based memory, and will likely be marketed to rival Microsoft's 4GB Xbox 360. The report states that a price point as low as £99 is possible for the machine.

"We haven't announced anything new on PS3 in terms of hardware revisions," Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida told Eurogamer at E3. "We should never say never - hardware guys are always looking at ways to make things cheaper, smaller."

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post #100 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The 16gb will be flash memory. Odds are it will be built into the unit and the HDD slot will be empty in that model.

This redesign and any possible different SKU's for it have not even been announced yet. Please stop stating particulars of it as if they're fact.
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I think it's a great idea. They will have the cheapest HD console available. I would definitely recommend it over the Xbox arcade.

Of course you'd recommend it, you're at the Playstation forum after all...

This will be easy enough to compete with I think. I imagine it's fair to wager a bet that if true, Microsoft will counter with a reduction to $99.99 on their arcade model while upping the internal flash memory from 4 gigs to 16 gigs to eliminate any possible advantage.

I don't see this as gaining an advantage on the competition. Rather, I see it as them finally plugging a hole they weren't serving in this marketplace that the competition has had to itself for several years now with a stripped down budget SKU.
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post #101 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

This redesign and any possible different SKU's for it have not even been announced yet. Please stop stating particulars of it as if they're fact.

If this model is real, then flash is their only option. There is no other storage option that they would choose. It is dirt cheap and widely availible.

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post #102 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

If this model is real, then flash is their only option. There is no other storage option that they would choose. It is dirt cheap and widely availible.

According to this article, 16GB model is using a flash storage. If the hard drive SATA is left empty, does that mean the 16GB flash will appear as another drive? I never like installing part of the firmware on the hard drive because if I remove the hard drive, part of the firmware disappears. On X360, I always store the 2nd part of the firmware on the internal flash on hard driveless model that has internal flash storage.

http://www.vg247.com/2012/07/23/ps3-4000-skips-gamescom-16gb-flash-sku-goes-cheap/
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post #103 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

This will be easy enough to compete with I think. I imagine it's fair to wager a bet that if true, Microsoft will counter with a reduction to $99.99 on their arcade model while upping the internal flash memory from 4 gigs to 16 gigs to eliminate any possible advantage.
I don't see this as gaining an advantage on the competition. Rather, I see it as them finally plugging a hole they weren't serving in this marketplace that the competition has had to itself for several years now with a stripped down budget SKU.

Indirectly, Microsoft already has the "$99" arcade model if you lock into 2 years Live subscription at full price.

Not sure how Sony going to compete with that one unless they do the Plus mandatory subscription at full price for "$99" 16GB PS3 model but there is an issue with this configuration. One of the big reason to subscribe to Plus is downloading retail games that will require tons of hard drive space. Microsoft's idea of Arcade model (including "$99" Live subscription model) is to start with casual gamers who don't play games that require hard drive which is technically every game (if you don't download DLC). Sony doesn't have such setup without Plus. I think 16GB PS3 model is a step in the right direction to compete with hard driveless X360 arcade but can't compete with yet with X360 with 2 years Gold deal yet.

For myself, if I buy another PS3, it will be the 16GB PS3 model since I almost always replace the internal hard drive anyway for less money.
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post #104 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 07:51 PM
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I posted a version of that article just a few posts up. Sad that it is going to take longer, I need to upgrade my 160gb drive soon anyway and getting a ultraslim and upgrading it right out of the box would have been much easier than backing up and restoring everything.

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post #105 of 272 Old 07-23-2012, 10:37 PM
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One question about the new 4000 series model is reliability. Of course it can't be proven until each model has been out for at least a year. If you are sold to the slim 2x00-3000 series, you still have a few months to decide. But the manual loading Blu-ray drive does open to new hacking. I remember my original slim PS2 was super easy to bypass when I opened the drive door as it's reading the disc inside. But Sony does make newer revision harder to hack. PS3 will have some kind of easier security bypass with the manual Blu-ray drive door on the 1st revision until Sony improves the security.
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post #106 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 08:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post

Indirectly, Microsoft already has the "$99" arcade model if you lock into 2 years Live subscription at full price.
Not sure how Sony going to compete with that one unless they do the Plus mandatory subscription at full price for "$99" 16GB PS3 model but there is an issue with this configuration. One of the big reason to subscribe to Plus is downloading retail games that will require tons of hard drive space. Microsoft's idea of Arcade model (including "$99" Live subscription model) is to start with casual gamers who don't play games that require hard drive which is technically every game (if you don't download DLC). Sony doesn't have such setup without Plus. I think 16GB PS3 model is a step in the right direction to compete with hard driveless X360 arcade but can't compete with yet with X360 with 2 years Gold deal yet.
For myself, if I buy another PS3, it will be the 16GB PS3 model since I almost always replace the internal hard drive anyway for less money.

I don't see why Sony couldn't offer $50 off at checkout if you sign up for 2 years of PS+ at full price ($100). The added charge would easily make up for the $50 off.

$150 priced PS3 already is pretty nuts IMO. I'd be waiting and not buying current stock too if i wanted one.
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post #107 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 10:06 AM
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I don't see why Sony couldn't offer $50 off at checkout if you sign up for 2 years of PS+ at full price ($100). The added charge would easily make up for the $50 off.
$150 priced PS3 already is pretty nuts IMO. I'd be waiting and not buying current stock too if i wanted one.

What you are suggesting works for any PS3 with hard drive. But it cannot be offered with 16GB PS3 model. How is the user going to download any game (except the tiny ones) to 16GB storage. (I estimated after Gigabyte translation, about 10% reserved space by PS3 OS and BIOS, you get around 11-12MB usable space from the 16GB storage.) The 16GB PS3 model has to be "complete" to run whatever is sold with it. Download game from PS+ isn't one. Sony can sell a hard drive separately but cannot be part of the bundle or it wouldn't make any sense to offer the 16GB model.

It's obvious that anyone who plays games will need to manage the 16GB storage often because it will run out of space very quickly depending on the type of game.

But once you have subscribed to Gold Live, you get a lot more features such as TV shows, Anime, Sports, etc. Some still require additional subscription fee but that's not any different from subscribing PS+. Problem PS+ on 16GB storage is you can't download 95%(?) of the games. I would guess most of other services offered with PS+ will work with 16GB storage but again that means lots of limited disk space management by the user. It's because PS3 developer haven't been required to think about making their apps as small as possible until now.

To be realistic, on X360, if you eventually decided you need a hard drive, you need to buy Microsoft branded X360 hard drive which is more costly. On 16GB PS3, when you decide you need a hard drive to be practical, you can buy almost any laptop sized hard drive and plug into the PS3. As for both companies, Microsoft will always make profit from any one who bought 4GB X360 and needs a hard drive later. On PS3, Sony gets zero profit from any one who bought a hard drive later. One way Sony could make a small profit is hard drive tray that holds the hard drive inside the PS3. If 16GB PS3 model doesn't include the hard drive tray, then the owners will have to pay for the hard drive tray that can be higher priced (until 3rd party introduces their own). It's one of the reason I was hoping 16GB PS3 uses a small hard drive than flash memory. Remember casual buyers don't think of the cost to bring the PS3 up with hard drive models during purchase. All they see is the sticker price, ie. $149 or $199 or whatever it will be.
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post #108 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 11:52 AM
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Make sure not to turn this into an Xbox vs PS3 sales thread.

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post #109 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post

What you are suggesting works for any PS3 with hard drive. But it cannot be offered with 16GB PS3 model. How is the user going to download any game (except the tiny ones) to 16GB storage. (I estimated after Gigabyte translation, about 10% reserved space by PS3 OS and BIOS, you get around 11-12MB usable space from the 16GB storage.) The 16GB PS3 model has to be "complete" to run whatever is sold with it. Download game from PS+ isn't one. Sony can sell a hard drive separately but cannot be part of the bundle or it wouldn't make any sense to offer the 16GB model.
It's obvious that anyone who plays games will need to manage the 16GB storage often because it will run out of space very quickly depending on the type of game.
But once you have subscribed to Gold Live, you get a lot more features such as TV shows, Anime, Sports, etc. Some still require additional subscription fee but that's not any different from subscribing PS+. Problem PS+ on 16GB storage is you can't download 95%(?) of the games. I would guess most of other services offered with PS+ will work with 16GB storage but again that means lots of limited disk space management by the user. It's because PS3 developer haven't been required to think about making their apps as small as possible until now.
To be realistic, on X360, if you eventually decided you need a hard drive, you need to buy Microsoft branded X360 hard drive which is more costly. On 16GB PS3, when you decide you need a hard drive to be practical, you can buy almost any laptop sized hard drive and plug into the PS3. As for both companies, Microsoft will always make profit from any one who bought 4GB X360 and needs a hard drive later. On PS3, Sony gets zero profit from any one who bought a hard drive later. One way Sony could make a small profit is hard drive tray that holds the hard drive inside the PS3. If 16GB PS3 model doesn't include the hard drive tray, then the owners will have to pay for the hard drive tray that can be higher priced (until 3rd party introduces their own). It's one of the reason I was hoping 16GB PS3 uses a small hard drive than flash memory. Remember casual buyers don't think of the cost to bring the PS3 up with hard drive models during purchase. All they see is the sticker price, ie. $149 or $199 or whatever it will be.

Actually you have the option to use up to two 16gb thumb drives on the 360 which a lot of consumers have already. So a bit more options to choose from this just going straight to the hard drive. Saves are not that huge and most services including Zune video market stream with the option to download the movie or tv show so space isn't as much of an issue that it used to be in 2007-8.

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post #110 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post

It's obvious that anyone who plays games will need to manage the 16GB storage often because it will run out of space very quickly depending on the type of game.
"Anyone who plays games" (aka traditional gamers) won't be buying the 16GB version. Or if they do, they'll also buy an HDD immediately. But the target market for the 16GB console are entry-level casuals and first-time HD console buyers. It's a way for Sony to finally reach those "mass market" gamers. They're the sort of consumers who will buy small games, old games (most of which require no installs), and rent games. They'll use it for the BD player and Netflix. They probably aren't the sort to buy a ton of games, and they also aren't the type to buy big games online. They won't need an HDD anytime soon, and if Sony does this right by having readily available PS3-branded HDDs in the gaming section of Walmart, those consumers will know what to do when they need more space.

Again, I think it's a non-issue.

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post #111 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 08:42 PM
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Large mandatory installs are not that common. Less than 20% of my games have what I would consider "big" installs. Many casual games have no install.

Sure but it's a large enough amount of games to be a potential issue. Also, you are correct that most casual games don't have that big an install footprint. Digital downloads of PS3 games do though and the 16GB system makes PS+ a bad deal unless you instantly upgrade the HDD (which I guess those that would upgrade to PS+ would more than likely do).
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As long as Sony creates a very clear upgrade path for consumers, this isn't a problem. If it hasn't been a problem for the 360 or Wii or DS or 3DS or PSP or PS Vita (which all also have "severe storage limits"), I don't see why it would be a problem for a PS3 sku.

The difference is those systems have had limits like this in place since they were introduced. The PS3 has not. Again I know the original 20GB version was sold but that was a different time and bought by an entirely different audience that buys PS3s now. I just see it being an issue for the games out there that do require a large mandatory install. If you're right and they have a very clear upgrade path in place then yeah it won't be an issue I guess. I just think it's a bad idea personally. On a positive note again I like the look of the new sku. It looks much closer to the original sku than the 3K series did.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm confident Sony has this worked out and as long as the 16GB version has upgradable storage ( I don't see why it wouldn't) then it really won't be an issue. Maybe they can start selling branded PS3 HDDs like someone mentioned above. Kinda late in the game to be doing that but not out of the realm of possibilities.
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post #112 of 272 Old 07-24-2012, 11:17 PM
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Warning, the below post is what happens when you post on avs while half asleep with a random thought.

The 16gb PS3 is aimed squarely at the casual CoD player. If they can convert even 10% of the 360 crowd with this SKU then mission acomplished. The free online play plus a very cheap system could be a perfect storm for Sony to start posting a profit even when the PS division is lumped in with a failure.

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post #113 of 272 Old 07-25-2012, 06:37 AM
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Your completely ignoring other factors. Controller preference, Xbox Live itself, and longevity. I don't see how you think this is their grand plan all of a sudden that this is aimed to convert 360 gamers that already paid for a live subscription to just up and switch because of this Sku? Your looking way to into this Sku as if this is a game changer and you believe it is all about COD?

If people haven't chosen to switch over now a 16gb SKU isn't going to change their minds now. Especially when they have established friends and family that are not going to follow them over either.

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post #114 of 272 Old 07-25-2012, 09:16 AM
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If people haven't chosen to switch over now a 16gb SKU isn't going to change their minds now. Especially when they have established friends and family that are not going to follow them over either.
Not to mention that "jumping ship" makes no sense. It's not like anyone would just shove their other HD console into a closet after getting a PS3 (or vice versa). The 16gb sku has more to do with picking up consumers who haven't yet gotten an HD console, or those looking to get a cheap second one.

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post #115 of 272 Old 07-25-2012, 07:35 PM
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Not gonna lie, I posted that right before I went to sleep and didn't even remember how I worded that until I re read it. Did not type that out well and I have no idea why I listed CoD in that manner. I think my thought processed involved the annual cost of Live and the fact that CoD uses very little HDD space even with DLC but I botched the delivery, no more late night AVS for me, I actually thought I discarded that post...

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post #116 of 272 Old 07-25-2012, 09:07 PM
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Not gonna lie, I posted that right before I went to sleep and didn't even remember how I worded that until I re read it. Did not type that out well and I have no idea why I listed CoD in that manner. I think my thought processed involved the annual cost of Live and the fact that CoD uses very little HDD space even with DLC but I botched the delivery, no more late night AVS for me, I actually thought I discarded that post...

AVS addict lol

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post #117 of 272 Old 07-26-2012, 08:08 AM
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I find it ironic that eveyone is onboard with the idea of a 16gb PS3 that would require most users to purchase a HDD and go through the effort required for installation, but my idea of having a PS3 where the memory could be easily upgraded to allow additional functionality was broadly rejected. Installing RAM is cheap and easy. Installing a new HDD is simple to us, but would not be to most people. Downloading firmware, putting it on a USB memory stick, etc., is not as simple as popping in a couple of DIMMs.
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post #118 of 272 Old 07-26-2012, 08:18 AM
 
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Having 16GB or having a billion GB of storage has no effect on how a game would be written for the system. Having varying RAM amounts has vast impacts on how a game would be built. Storage options put varying capability in to the hands of the end user. RAM options screw both the developer and the end user in a variety of ways. Any time you fragment the market in such a way, it costs more to develope, with a lower chance of return. This is bad for everyone.
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post #119 of 272 Old 07-26-2012, 09:06 AM
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AVS addict lol

Note to self, listening to Duke Nukem read 50 shades plus lack of sleep equals no logic in my brain.

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post #120 of 272 Old 07-26-2012, 09:20 AM
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Having 16GB or having a billion GB of storage has no effect on how a game would be written for the system. Having varying RAM amounts has vast impacts on how a game would be built.

There are plenty of games for the PS3 that require them to be installed to the hard drive. I do believe it will affect how they are written.
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