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post #721 of 17078 Old 03-28-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Not really. With limited ram, some devs did use the HDD as a cache. But they won't with that much super fast ram onboard. So all you'll save on is install times. Big whoop. Saving 20 minutes a year on game installs isn't worth anywhere near 400 bucks. Especially since Sony have already stated that this function can be performed in the background with the PS4.

I'm confused. Do you think its going to be any easier filling 8GB of ram directly off of a maximum 27MB/sec bluray? With seek times approaching 100ms that can drop real world throughput considerably less? Or do you think data is loaded into memory by magic? All that memory is useless until they've loaded something in it.

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post #722 of 17078 Old 03-28-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm confused. Do you think its going to be any easier filling 8GB of ram directly off of a maximum 27MB/sec bluray? With seek times approaching 100ms that can drop real world throughput considerably less? Or do you think data is loaded into memory by magic? All that memory is useless until they've loaded something in it.

Well, with a 2x drive, only a couple games even used the HDD as a cache. So with a 6x drive, I think even less will do that. Meaning, no one will.

Oh, and it's called a load screen for a reason.

500 gigs FTW.
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post #723 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Well, with a 2x drive, only a couple games even used the HDD as a cache. So with a 6x drive, I think even less will do that. Meaning, no one will.

Oh, and it's called a load screen for a reason.

PS4 has 16x the amount of memory. And only a 3X faster spinning drive - which doesn't account for seek time, which doesn't change linearly with disc speed, so twice the data rate is more realistic.

So right there you're looking at a potential eightfold increase in load times. As if they weren't bad enough already. You really want to sit and stare at a load screen for 3-4 minutes?

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post #724 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 04:58 AM
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Bottom line is, SSD > HDD, having the OPTION isn't bad at all and won't hurt Anyone, why would anyone NOT want such thing included is beyond me!

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post #725 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Bottom line is, SSD > HDD, having the OPTION isn't bad at all and won't hurt Anyone, why would anyone NOT want such thing included is beyond me!

Indeed. If anything I still think its a shame that there probably isn't a small SSD onboard. Devs have gotten very clever about hiding load times, like those long windy hallways in god of war, unskippable cutscenes, or my personal favorite, the "walk up to this door and mash X for 5 seconds to open it". Those artificial barriers are still going to be around even if its fully installed. Anything they could do to reduce restrictions on design like that would have been worth it. A small onboard SSD cache would have at least freed them from having to do some of that. But those will be hard coded into the game, so even SSD users will have to endure them. As it is right now they might choose to just keep a longer buffer in RAM, which is an absolute waste of GDDR5. Or stick with load screens (which at least an SSD replacement can accelerate).

Skyrim is night and day on a PC with SSD vs HDD or optical. Load times go from 20-60 seconds to 2-4. It completely changes the experience.

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post #726 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 06:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blklightning View Post

Well, with a 2x drive, only a couple games even used the HDD as a cache. So with a 6x drive, I think even less will do that. Meaning, no one will.

Oh, and it's called a load screen for a reason.

The number you're looking for is 512-split.
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post #727 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 07:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Bottom line is, SSD > HDD, having the OPTION isn't bad at all and won't hurt Anyone, why would anyone NOT want such thing included is beyond me!

Kinda. Depends on the HDD bus interface. I'd imagine they'd be going with SATA 3+

PS3 being SATA 1.0, a SSD did relatively little because of the bus bottleneck. Shorter seek times, but then loading into RAM was just as slow.
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post #728 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Kinda. Depends on the HDD bus interface. I'd imagine they'd be going with SATA 3+

PS3 being SATA 1.0, a SSD did relatively little because of the bus bottleneck. Shorter seek times, but then loading into RAM was just as slow.

PS4 is confirmed SATA III (6gbps).

PS3 got a pretty decent load time boost from SSD on purely digital/HDD content (like 30-50% in some games). Didnt help nearly as much with most disc based content, even those with partial installs. And SATA 1.5 was definitely a major limitation. I personally wouldn't think its worth it for full blown SSD on PS3 given all that, but I am pretty happy with the performance boost from the hybrid drive I threw in there.

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post #729 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 09:02 AM
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500 GB SSD + 8 GB DDR5 would shoot the price to $600
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post #730 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

500 GB SSD + 8 GB DDR5 would shoot the price to $600

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post #731 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

500 GB SSD + 8 GB DDR5 would shoot the price to $600

In which case, they can keep it.
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post #732 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 10:19 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/embed/dO2rM-l-vdQ

The newest UE4 tech demo from GDC. Running on an i7 and GTX 680 on PC, technically more powerful than a PS4, but with PS4 dev tools that can write directly to the hardware and some optimization, this is a pretty realistic look at what PS4 will be eventually capable of.

Pretty nuts. And don't forget a GTX 680 only has 2GB of GDDR5.

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post #733 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 10:20 AM
 
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I'll be the first to pop in a SDD if their streaming and download features live up to the hype. I wouldn't want it in the standard model though. Hell, sell me one cheaper w/o a HDD and let me put the one I want in!
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post #734 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 10:54 AM
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Maybe Sony splits the difference with the HDD. Since they are already using laptop/mobile style low power consumption processors, maybe they will use a 7200rpm HDD and not have to worry about the extra heat. Cost vs. performance vs. reliability will determine what's in the box.

With SSD's getting cheaper it would be nice to be able to add your own if you choose. At least this time the system is fast enough to really take advantage.

The only concern with an SSD is the limited number of read/write cycles you get. Granted it's probably a lot, but SSD does have a shorter projected lifespan than a traditional HDD. Do consoles have more read/write functions than a PC over a similar span? Any chance a console wears out an SSD after heavy gaming over something like a 5-year period? I figure someone here will know more than I will.

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post #735 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 11:05 AM
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Heat on 7200 RPM drives is no longer a concern. They are energy efficient now that heat hasn't been a problem for a while.
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post #736 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Crash44 View Post

Maybe Sony splits the difference with the HDD. Since they are already using laptop/mobile style low power consumption processors, maybe they will use a 7200rpm HDD and not have to worry about the extra heat. Cost vs. performance vs. reliability will determine what's in the box.

With SSD's getting cheaper it would be nice to be able to add your own if you choose. At least this time the system is fast enough to really take advantage.

The only concern with an SSD is the limited number of read/write cycles you get. Granted it's probably a lot, but SSD does have a shorter projected lifespan than a traditional HDD. Do consoles have more read/write functions than a PC over a similar span? Any chance a console wears out an SSD after heavy gaming over something like a 5-year period? I figure someone here will know more than I will.

Consoles are way less hard on an SSD than a PC. Writes are what wear out an SSD, the only thing really written to it is one time game installs, a few saves here or there, some minor caching. Compared to a PC where it can get constantly beat up on by stuff like video editing that just constantly tears through gigabytes of writes.

An SSD is usually rated for 5-10k write cycles, meaning you could overwrite the entire drive 10,000 times before its expected to fail. Reliability shouldn't be an issue, I'd be far more concerned about mechanical wear and tear on a HDD.

I haven't heard too many issues of people having SSDs failing since they became mainstream, I've had one for like 4 years, not a single problem.

As far as 5400 vs 7200 - could be, they didnt state the speed yet. The same $20ish price differential could get them a 8GB hybrid drive though, which would be far better. All I know is a 5400rpm laptop drive is barely going to cut it, and a 7200rpm is only marginally better. Even if the first thing I'm going to do is tear it out, a faster stock drive at least sets a higher floor for performance.

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post #737 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I'll be the first to pop in a SDD if their streaming and download features live up to the hype. I wouldn't want it in the standard model though. Hell, sell me one cheaper w/o a HDD and let me put the one I want in!

I wouldn't be mad at that. Of course it'll never happen though. frown.gif

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post #738 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 02:32 PM
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Reading through this thread I haven't seen any mention of this, so likely it's not known for sure, but just wondering what audio codecs ps4 will support. Sony says they want this box to be the centerpiece of a home entertainment system, so it would be nice if they made it compatible for most everything. FLAC would seem logical, returning support for sacd would be nice and dvd-a would be awesome, though probably unlikely- though their allowing some of their music to be released on dvd-a recently gives a glimmer of hope.

Anybody hear anything about this? A truly universal audio player would seem to add a lot of value.
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post #739 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry my friend. I don't believe we've seen any information on the supported audio formats. I would think they'll lay it all out when E3 rolls around (mid June).

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post #740 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 03:09 PM
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Sorry my friend. I don't believe we've seen any information on the supported audio formats. I would think they'll lay it all out when E3 rolls around (mid June).

Yep, no word on codecs, but they did specifically say CD and SACD won't be supported.

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post #741 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yep, no word on codecs, but they did specifically say CD and SACD won't be supported.

Maybe I misread- or am mis-remembering, but I thought that bit about no cd support was of questionable validity??? Also, don't remember anything said about sacd- but then at my age memory is very fallible...

Big mistake imo to not try and support all codecs, if they really want to be the centerpiece of our a/v systems. Look how popular oppo is for their ability to do play almost anything (whether disc- or file-based). I'm not very literate on computers- it seems the ps4 will be mainly a souped-up PC, correct?- but it would seem like it wouldn't be too difficult (or expensive) to turn this into a universal player. Could be a major differentiation from the nextbox, as well as drawing in some people who wouldn't usually buy a gaming console (I personally bought my ps3 mainly for BR, thinking gaming would be a nice fringe benefit, but now I spend more time gaming than watching BR's and probably more time streaming video than watching my BR collection- but I still spend more time listening to music than any other single a/v activity). I guess reading about the PC-based architecture of the ps4, I imagined the ultimate one-box solution for a consumer-friendly, easy-to-use HTPC: a box that could do anything you wanted a/v-wise. That would seem to be a killer component, but it's probably harder to implement than I imagine...

But if anyone did this (would seem like MS would be more likely tho), they could rule the a/v world. They could sell dl's of everything, not just games. Streaming music services are becoming very popular and Hi-rez music dl's are just starting to take off- and while the audiophile community is a niche market, having the penetration of a major console could show a lot of users just how much better audio can sound w/ hi-quality sources, including surround sound, compared to mp3's- which are fine on portables w/ earbuds, but pale in comparison on a good sound system, which most people who buy these consoles seem to have. I know sitting down and just listening to music is rare these days, but maybe more people would, once they hear how awesome music can be on a good HT rig (oh yeah- and include a cool, customizable visualizer, so we could have something to watch while we listen). And Sony could have an open dl system, unlike apple's crappy closed system- and maybe take over that segment; the next-gen Vita could also be a portable player for music, supporting all the codecs and blow ipods out of the water w/ their improved sound and usability.

I know I'm dreaming, but it seems like it could be do-able and if done right could lead to dominance in a number of areas. Please point out the difficulties in doing this.
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post #742 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe I saw somewhere that the PS4 won't play audio CDs, but it will be able to read them. Perhaps for PSOne/PS2 support only? I dunno.

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post #743 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 09:42 PM
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This was an off the cuff statement by someone from Sony Japan in Japanese. I think the consensus is that it may or may not be true.
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post #744 of 17078 Old 03-29-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dO2rM-l-vdQ

The newest UE4 tech demo from GDC. Running on an i7 and GTX 680 on PC, technically more powerful than a PS4, but with PS4 dev tools that can write directly to the hardware and some optimization, this is a pretty realistic look at what PS4 will be eventually capable of.

Pretty nuts. And don't forget a GTX 680 only has 2GB of GDDR5.
That's because you don't need more the 2GB. Sony was going overkill with 8GB. It isn't needed. Better to have to much vs to little.
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post #745 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 05:52 AM
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http://www.dsogaming.com/news/unreal-engine-4-not-as-impressive-on-ps4-as-on-pc-comparison-between-elemental-pc-ps4-demos/

Yesterday, Epic Games unveiled Unreal Engine 4 running on PS4. It was amazing witnessing such an engine running on Sony’s next-generation platform but something felt off. Something felt different from what we remember seeing on the PC. And it appears we’re right as both NeoGAF and Reddit users have been spotting various differences between these two versions of the Elemental Tech Demo. Fact is that Elemental on PC looked more impressive and more beautiful than its console counterpart. But let’s take a look on a comparison between these two versions, shall we?

Here are some grabs from the Elemental Tech Demo, running on the PC and on PS4. We should note that the top images are from the PC version, while the bottom ones are from PS4.



As we can clearly see, the PC version features more particles effects than the PS4 version. Of course some might say that the PS4 version still features enough particles, however one of the things that really impressed us on the Elemental Tech Demo – back in 2012 – was the amount of its particles effects and the fact that it could easily handle them.

Lighting also seems to be better on the PC. Not only that, but pay attention to the Knights eyes. On the PC version, you can clearly see that his eyes are ‘burning’. That effect though is nowhere to be found on the PS4 version. Due to the lack of such feature, the Knight on the PS4 does not look as frightening as the one on the PC. As Reddit’s user ‘ForHomeUseOnly’ also notes, ‘there isn’t a shadowed area in the corner wall area by the door, and it looks like there isn’t any light bouncing going on, and missing shadowing in some areas.’

In addition specular highlights – or the shininess of the character - seem better on the PC. The PS4 version has very ‘plastic and blown out reflections‘. Furthermore, the Knight seems to be getting less indirect lighting on the PS4 version. As we can easily spot, there is some blue indirect lighting from the enviroment on the Knight’s armor on the PC tech demo, something that is missing on the PS4.

Textures also seem of a lower quality. This can be easily spotted on the Knight’s armor, the ice chunks and the door. Ah yes, the door looks really awful on the PS4 version of the Elemental demo. The PS4 version also lacks the DOF effect that was present on the PC version, though some might be glad that Epic Games did not use it. Smoke effects are also decreased to a minimum, something that can be easily spotted in the second comparison shot.

You can easily tell that the PS4 version is basically a downgrade from the PC version of Elemental. As a means of proof, we’ve included both tech demos below. We should also note that Elemental was running on a single GTX680 on the PC. We also know that Elemental was running at 1080p and 60fps on the PC. Epic Games has not revealed the resolution and the framerate of the PS4 version, though we expect it to be at 1080p and 30fps.

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post #746 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 05:56 AM
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I am hoping this was running on an incomplete dev kit and no optimizing has been done yet. (we don't know if the custom APU is finalized yet, or if it was in Epic's dev kit) The lighting was easily the most disapointing part of the demo on PS4, hopefully once they code directly to the hardware it will improve greatly.

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post #747 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 07:12 AM
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I am hoping this was running on an incomplete dev kit and no optimizing has been done yet. (we don't know if the custom APU is finalized yet, or if it was in Epic's dev kit) The lighting was easily the most disapointing part of the demo on PS4, hopefully once they code directly to the hardware it will improve greatly.

They said it was on the dev kit, so its probably still running on a discrete card that more closely matches the PS4, but without any of the advantages of the APU w/ unified memory.

The more advanced global lighting got cut, they're falling back to light maps for most of the environment, although they claim that the 8GB of memory makes that much better than it used to be.

I'm sure it will get a lot better over time, Epic said so themselves. This was definitely just a quick and dirty port. It still looks great for a first shot at it, you never get to really see a console flex its muscles for 2-3 years.

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post #748 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 07:28 AM
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Last I heard dev kits were using A10 APUs just so they could code for an APU. (making the final hardware transition easier) This was almost 6 months ago, so it has probably changed. (I miss SuperDAE, his leaks turned out to be spot on)

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post #749 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Last I heard dev kits were using A10 APUs just so they could code for an APU. (making the final hardware transition easier) This was almost 6 months ago, so it has probably changed. (I miss SuperDAE, his leaks turned out to be spot on)

I can't imagine that's what this is running on, the GPU there is so far off from what a PS4 will have.

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post #750 of 17078 Old 03-30-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I can't imagine that's what this is running on, the GPU there is so far off from what a PS4 will have.

That was from one of SuperDAE's leaks, which have proven accurate, and he had insider access at a lot of companies. If he hadn't been busted we would probably have a lot more info...

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Playstation 4 Games , Playstation 4 Camera , Playstation 4 Dualshock 4 Wireless Controller , Playstation 3 160gb System , Sony , Playstation 4 Console
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