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post #91 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:28 AM
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If they're going to institute a commission on disc based sales, some sort of digital transfer (with that same commission) becomes far more likely. It's at the same time a pat on the back and a slap in the face to retail, and I don't think it would be too onerous towards consumers either. As long as its a give and take.

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post #92 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:32 AM
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So, how can Sony afford to put so much GDDR5 in the PS4? Digital Foundry points out that Nvidia's GeForce Titan includes 6GB of GDDR5 and costs $1000. Will this be another situation where they sell the console at a loss and hope to make it up on software?
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post #93 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't see how they will be able to sell the PS4 at a comfortable consumer price ($450 - $500) without taking a loss. However, the loss won't be anywhere near the hit they took for the launch PS3. No new tech like the Blu Ray drive and Cell. An APU allows them to more cheaply bundle it all together. No major R&D investment, no new factories to create, staff and operate... it all saves money.

So a lot of the system's design choices have been made so that the PS4 can be manufactured as cheaply as possible. Some of the savings have gone into better tech stuff in key areas, like the quantity and quality of RAM.

It won't be a major problem like it was before. IMHO.
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With the vagueness on the used game capabilities, another thing we have to keep in mind is that there may be some technology that would be used for the transfer of ownership of digitally purchased games which they are unable to discuss at this time. Therefore, they can't really come out and say straight out what the plans are without leaking other secrets they want to keep at the moment.

For example, right now there is a mixture of download only games and disc-based games in the marketplace. If they flat out said "used games can be used on the PS4", does that mean all used games, or only disc-based, or digital games? With the presentation focusing heavily on "instantaneous boot-up", perhaps disc based games will be installed onto the HDD in a manner that also includes a digital download of the game for quick access. Therefore, they may not know how that would be implemented yet.

They could also be working on a system allowing you to sell your digitally downloaded game, which would then inactivate it for you on your system once it is sold. There are a bunch of things that might not be set in stone yet, so Sony can't just come out and discuss it at this point in time. Therefore, their wording has been intentionally vague so as not to leak anything too soon.

Interesting theory. They also need to add an option to digitally gift games to someone over the network.

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post #94 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:40 AM
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One question I have, regarding everything we saw on Wednesday...


Of the games that were shown, how many did we actually see "true", "legit" gameplay footage ? I've seen all the 1080p videos now, and 99 percent of what we saw was special camera views that we normally wouldn't see when we are actually playing the game. The only thing that I saw that seemed truly like a legit "in game" camera view, was Watch Dogs and parts of Driveclub.

In some videos, like the Jimmy Fallon Killzone stuff, we saw some actual gameplay, and the Knack PS Vita demonstration, but in a lot of that stuff, it was from cinematic camera angles, cut scenes (even if using the in-game engine).


Do we really know what PS3 games look like ?


I mean, if that armored police car in inFamous really has that detailed texture on it in game, then it's ALL GRAVY BABY....


but it's hard to trust this stuff. Just think of Alien Colonial Marines. Speaking of that, was anybody else thinking what I was thinking when Randy Pitchford was on that PS4 video talking about simplicity and elegance. Just how "elegant" was his decision to release that POS ? That's all I could think about when dude was talking on that video. I could imagine some people in the live audience boo-ing slightly, lol when he popped on screen. Just some really bad timing, heh..
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post #95 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:44 AM
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The video for Killzone posted on this forum under its own thread wasn't live gameplay? Once they got to the action, it certainly looked like it to me. ??
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post #96 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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New interview up with Jack Tretton addressing the direction of the PS4. This guy is on point with a lot of his answers:
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David Ewalt: I’ll start with the question everybody’s asking: When do we actually get to see the console?

Jack Tretton: You know, that’s really interesting. I’ve heard that from multiple reporters and shame on me that I didn’t see that as a big issue. They’ll see it soon enough. I’m real proud of the fact that we’re talking about [launching in] holiday 2013 and we’ve already got a lot of detail out there, and a lot of game play, in February. But I was so focused on the content that when I think of the console I think of what comes through the screen, not the device that it emanates from. I just think there’s a lot of natural curiosity: What’s the controller gonna look like? What’s the box gonna look like? We made a conscious decision that wasn’t going to be a part of the first reveal, but I would look for E3 as a time when you’ll get a good look at it. Or sooner.

Your focus tonight was less on the product itself and more on the developers, the games, and the experience.

You know, it’s easy to say we’re all about the games… but to get the development community up there, and more importantly to get their content on the screen and to see it played… It’s very exciting to me. You’re gonna see more content steadily between now and the holidays. I think you’ll get a lot of good content showing in E3 and then you’ll see it evolving even more as we move into Gamescon, and then you’ll see even more as we move into the Tokyo Game Show.

Are you confident that when the PS4 comes out there’ll be a enough new games available at launch, and enough platform exclusives? Is your launch window all lined up?

I think that’s one of the key advantages that we have. We had great representation [at the launch event] from third parties like Ubisoft and Activision… that alone would have been something to be proud of. But the distinct advantage that we have is that one out of two Sony Computer and Entertainment employees are in development. We’ve got over 2000 employees. We’ve got 18 studios around the world, and I think we could have done the event without any third parties, still showed a lot of content. But the combination of third party support and first party support… I mean, nine months out from launch we showed a lot of live game code and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. You’re gonna see more and more as we get close. I have more confidence about game content in this generation, not only at launch but a steady flow, than I ever have.

I really can’t think of any point in my career when I’ve ever had more confidence that there’s gonna be a lot of great content. And not narrow genre content. All the big genres are gonna be represented… but there’s gonna be a lot that just pushes the envelope on stuff we never even thought about before.

Tonight’s event was almost exclusively about games. Why not spend more time talking about the larger entertainment picture, about the PS4 as a family media device?

If you wanna have an event to talk about multimedia capabilities, we’ll proudly stand up and list all the media partners that we have, and the fact that we’re the number one most used Netflix device around the world. But the 3.1 million people that streamed [Wednesday's event] and that stayed up at all hours depending on what country they were in, they were there to see games. People that want to hear about multimedia applications don’t stay up until 4:00 in the morning to see presentations. We know that the people who were watching were gamers. We know that the people that are the primary purchasers of our boxes are gamers, and that is the audience that we cater to first and foremost.

But I will stack up our non-game services with any competitor out there. I think we’re gonna have more than our fair share of great content outside of the gaming world. And I think the other really unique opportunity with this is there’s always been limitations. You know, game development costs so much, which means that games have to retail for sixty dollars, which means people have to cater to the masses and the number of genres that can be introduced needs to be fairly narrow. Now with machines like PlayStation 4 you can have free to play games, you can have 99 cent games, you can have indie developers selling $9.99 digital games. So it’s no longer the case that if you don’t have a 150 person team and you don’t have a $50 million budget, don’t bother making a game. I think the opportunity in the living room on the console is greater than it’s ever been. It’s a real renaissance in gaming.

The event also talked a lot about the PlayStation 4′s cloud services –downloading back catalog games, playing them from the cloud, sharing games between devices, even having friends log in and watch you play, or take over the controller. Is that out of the box? And will all those services be tucked behind PlayStation Plus, where users have to pay for them?


I think it’s aspirational on the device, as opposed to us standing up there, pounding the floor and saying the day this thing ships all this stuff will be there. I think it’ll absolutely be there for the device, but I don’t know whether it will be there for day one on the device. I think a lot of these are things that we’re gonna do over time. And with that said, I think there will be a tangible example of all the things that we showed. It’s just a question of how deep it will go, how many games it will involve.

It’s got to be a huge challenge to make these changes to your network — you’ve already built up a big infrastructure to stream out video, but now you’re saying players will be streaming video back, and watching each other play. It’s telling that you had executives from Gaikai come up on stage for a presentation.

I’ve been with the company for 17 years and I have the ultimate respect for our engineers and our R&D and our ability to create experiences that most consumers can’t even imagine. But I think there was a real recognition of the fact that a company like Gaikai had cloud technology that was greater than what we had available, and that by buying them we could leapfrog where we were, and really where we saw anybody else. The acquisition of Gaikai gives us a company that really has creative ideas and combine it with all our resources and all our different divisions and I think the relationship has been real strong.

So now that there’s this whole media infrastructure built around PlayStation, at what point do those services start to spill into the rest of Sony’s business? Microsoft’s built Xbox Music into Windows 8, it’s on PCs, it’s on tablets and phones…

I don’t think you’ll see PlayStation branded stuff on other Sony devices –you will see and you currently see the Sony Entertainment Network. Whether it’s your smart phone or your tablet or your TV you can take advantage of Music Unlimited and Video Unlimited… most of the deals that we’re doing with app providers we’re making available across the Sony Entertainment Network. So it’s not just Hulu Plus for your PlayStation 3. It’s Hulu Plus for your Sony device, if you’re a member of the Sony Entertainment Network.

I think you’re already seeing a proliferation like that, but it’ll be done under the Sony banner as opposed to the PlayStation brand. Because when we think PlayStation we think gaming. So if it’s somewhere that gaming lives, the PlayStation brand will probably come with it. If it’s pure entertainment then that’s really more of the Sony brand.

How much are you worried about the rise of mobile gaming taking away from your business? If someone does all their gaming on a phone now, doesn’t that mean they’re out of the market for a PlayStation 4?

As I’ve said, I’ve been around this industry for a long time. I’ve been in it since March of 1986, and when I got in it I was told that I was entering a business that was a toy for boys 12 to 17 years old, and was going away, and was gonna evolve into something else. So I’ve at least been in it long enough to see gaming be recognized as mainstream entertainment, gaming be recognized as not something that’s just for 12 to 17 year old boys, that’s now got an average age of 35, and has got a female audience that’s almost as large as the male audience. It is 2 billion people worldwide, mainstream entertainment. So I think the opportunity for dedicated game devices is better than it’s ever been before.

I use a Blackberry it’s because it’s got a good keyboard for sending and receiving emails, and I can make phone calls on it. But it’s really not that great of a phone in my opinion. I bought the Blackberry for email. And if I buy a PC, in some instances people buy it for gaming but I think in most instances they have it in a home office and they’re using it for multiple purposes, and gaming isn’t first and foremost. When somebody buys a PlayStation or one of our dedicated devices, they’re buying it first and foremost for gaming. And I will stack our gaming capabilities against anybody else’s.

So if you’re a true gamer you may kill some time on a smart phone and you may enjoy games –and I’m not belittling games on a smart phone– but you’re not gonna confuse Uncharted on the PlayStation 3 with an experience that you get on the smart phone. It’s a way to get people away from the intimidation factor of gaming, and making people realize that you can have a lot of fun with interactive entertainment. And if you get hooked I think you’re potentially a new PlayStation consumer.

So I think the gamer is alive and well and healthier than they’ve ever been. And I really don’t see smart phones and tablets as a threat, I see them as being additive. I think more people are gonna migrate to console from smart phone and tablet than the other direction.

How much of a threat is PC gaming to the PlayStation 4?


Well, when I started in the industry I was working for Activision, and they were created to create entertainment software for the PC. And when the Atari 2600 came along, they said ‘oh, here’s a diversion, let’s do this dedicated box, but ultimately we’re about PC software.’ So PC gaming has been around since Pong and I think it will continue to be around, but I just think there’s a fundamental difference between the experience you have in front of a big screen TV in the living room on a dedicated console, and the experience that the average consumer has.

The threat, if you will, of PC gaming has always been there. And I think for the amount of money that you’ve gotta pay, $250.00 for PlayStation 3, and the entertainment experience that you get, it’s hard to say ‘I’m a gamer but I just can’t justify spending $250.00 on that console, everything I need is on my PC.’

But part of your argument for the value of the console is that you have it on the TV screen. But now Valve’s got “big picture mode” in Steam, and soon they’ll have the Steam Box. Do you see that encroachment as a threat?

Again, if you look back in time, Sega was a very formidable competitor and a fine hardware manufacturer, state of the art in the 80’s and 90’s. And they’re no longer in the hardware business. Microsoft is doing a wonderful job and Nintendo’s done a wonderful job since the 80’s. But I think new players are gonna come in and old players may leave. There’s always gonna be competition. There’s always gonna be people taking bites of the apples. But I’ve always said a rising tide lifts all boats. And if people are driven to gaming then that creates more opportunity for PlayStation. If people are all of the sudden drifting away from gaming in any way shape or form, that’s a bigger threat than a dedicated system coming from another manufacturer.

When the PS3 came out, one of the things that really helped it sell was the built-in Blu-ray player –even if a consumer wasn’t going to game much, they could justify the purchase because it would also allow them to watch HD movies. What’s the Blu-ray player for the PS4? What will make people say, “this isn’t just for games, I need this?”

Well, it’s all there. It’s the ability to stream your Netflix and your Hulu and your MLB.TV and your NHL and your NFL Sunday Ticket. It’s the ability to get Video Unlimited and Music Unlimited and the ability to have a Blu Ray Player built into it, and to stream any form of digital or disc based entertainment. I still think that’s a very big part of the equation. But I don’t think the future of PlayStation 4 and our success is gonna be determined by selling it as a non-game device.

But all that stuff you’re talking about, like streaming movies and playing Blu Ray discs, I can do that on the PS3. Is there some entertainment feature I can only get on the PS4 that gives me a reason to upgrade?

You know, something that we have subscribed to since PlayStation 1 is that consumers come into the market at different price points, at different times, for different reasons. PlayStation 3 is gonna live on, and we don’t expect everybody to drop their PlayStation 3 and immediately buy a PlayStation 4 this Christmas. We know that there are gonna be people buying and playing PlayStation 3 for years to come, just as they did with PlayStation 2, just as they did with PlayStation 1.

There may be a consumer that doesn’t become a PlayStation 4 consumer for five years. That’s okay. I mean, we’re selling PlayStation 3’s to people today, we sold them to people in 2006, and we hope to be selling them to people in 2015. That’s okay.

I think the great thing is that there are no absolutes. It’s not all about disc space, it’s not all about internet connected, it’s not all streaming, it’s not all large form games… there’s a lot of choice there for consumers, and I would argue more choice than any of our competitors.

"I mean, nine months out from launch we showed a lot of live game code and that’s just the tip of the iceberg."

February+9 months = November launch? smile.gif

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post #97 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 11:58 AM
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Not everyone cares about social networking. I spend 0% of my time on Facebook or Twitter. 0. I've never seen a Twitter page, ever. I could be wrong, but I've always considered the PS3 to be the grown-up's system.
People who were kids when the PS3 was introduced are now grown ups. That market segment heavily uses Facebook and Twitter. To not include it would be dumb on Sony's part....
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post #98 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, it'll have all of the social bells and whistles, but it is encouraging for many that the PS4 will cater to the "anti-social" types as well. Here is a Sony exec's view on the topic:

Quote:
Does the PlayStation 4 always need to be connected to the internet, I asked?

"You can play offline, but you may want to keep it connected," he suggested. "The system has the low-power mode - I don't know the official term - that the main system is shut down but the subsystem is awake. Downloading or updating or you can wake it up using either the tablet, smartphone or PS Vita."

Are all of those things optional, though? For people who have broadband data limits, for example? They can customise everything?

"Oh yes, yes, you can go offline totally. Social is big for us, but we understand there are some people who are anti-social! So if you don't want to connect to anyone else, you can do that."


Sony clearly isn't afraid of technical nuance. This is a company that announced its next-generation console by declaring it has an x86 architecture, advanced PC GPU, 8GB of GDDR5 memory and a massive hard disk. You may like some of its networking ideas. You may not like some of them. I got the impression speaking to Yoshida that Sony has other priorities.

Speaking from experience, it's always been good at allowing people to change what they want up to a logical point - far beyond any of its competitors - and I see no reason to suspect any change this generation.

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post #99 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post

People who were kids when the PS3 was introduced are now grown ups. That market segment heavily uses Facebook and Twitter. To not include it would be dumb on Sony's part....

I've been resistant to social media from the start, but at a small business marketing workshop I attended yesterday, the featured presenter, a social media "guru," said that just as a website was required 10 years ago to give a business credibility, a social media presence is required in today's market. A lot of my FB friends who are 45+ are quite active ... I mean posting multiple times a day, more than my nieces and nephews who are in their teens.
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post #100 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 12:20 PM
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On the price of GDDR5

An AMD 6670 with 1GB GDDR5 memory sells for a profit at $60 most of that cost is the GPU, some is markup on several ends. (the core GPU is sold to Gigabyte, they then build the card sold to Amazon who then sell it at a markup.)

The GDDR5 has two markups in a GPU, manufacturer and retail. $10 per GB when sold to Sony directly isn't unreasonable, and may be overestimating.

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post #101 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Shown at the big unveiling, here is a clip of the Unreal 4 engine running on the PS4.


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post #102 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 02:33 PM
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[quote name="Anthony1" url="/t/1459375/playstation-4/90#post_22998523" Of the games that were shown, how many did we actually see "true", "legit" gameplay footage ? I've seen all the 1080p videos now, and 99 percent of what we saw was special camera views that we normally wouldn't see when we are actually playing the game. The only thing that I saw that seemed truly like a legit "in game" camera view, was Watch Dogs and parts of Driveclub.
[/QUOTE]

What part of DriveClub was live, all I saw was the trailer? I heard the guy talking for 5 minutes about how accurately modeled the paint was and started going into Gran-Turismo-esque seizure. "Its a driving game, SHOW US SOME DRIVING!".
If there was live footage of the game I'd love to see it...???
Quote:
Do we really know what PS3 games look like ?

Well, Watch Dogs looked like live gameplay recorded......and it looked good. I watched the GTA5 trailer a few times and if that is the best that can be done on a 360 system then this looks like an incremental upgrade in graphics tech, but its probably running at 1080p, although it looked 30fps.
That could very well just be the video conversion however. The real key however is that if the game looks this good, and is also fun to play, at launch, then the system will have some legs.

Killzone didn't impress me, but I'm sure it will be a fine looking game when it finally ships. They seem to have expanded the default FoV to something more PC-like (maybe 75 or 80 degrees) as opposed to KZ's earlier FoV which was somewhere between "looking through a toilet paper tube" and 60 some-odd degrees, at least that's what it felt like :P

Sony appears to have learned from its earlier mistakes.....they went to the developers, like Microsoft did, and said "We want to be in first place again...and we don't have a new Disc Format to push....so help us get back to #1". This looks like it could be a great 1080p30/60 machine to carry us through until 4K TV's are made by Vizio and sold at Kmart for $399.
Quote:
I mean, if that armored police car in inFamous really has that detailed texture on it in game, then it's ALL GRAVY BABY....

With that much available RAM I'm sure texture resolution won't be a problem for the next-next-gen systems.......like it isn't for PC's today.
Quote:
but it's hard to trust this stuff. Just think of Alien Colonial Marines. Speaking of that, was anybody else thinking what I was thinking when Randy Pitchford was on that PS4 video talking about simplicity and elegance. Just how "elegant" was his decision to release that POS ? That's all I could think about when dude was talking on that video. I could imagine some people in the live audience boo-ing slightly, lol when he popped on screen. Just some really bad timing, heh..

First of all, remember...these events are designed to Bedazzle and ******** you into a preorder. Microsoft will do the same shortly, and their stuff is probably going to look "Damn near the same" as what Sony showed off. Because the days of Colecovision vs Intellivision vs Atari are long, long gone.
I generally can't watch these events....why? Because hearing some Developer talk about how "Amazing" and "Incredible" the "thing" is gets very old very fast.....every product launch is the same. For me its "Shut up, and show me the games. Not Trailers, not pre-renders, just show me some recorded footage of someone playing a game". ANd sadly, in events like these....you almost never get that. I was glad that Killzone and Watch Dogs (crappy name) looked like that.....I loved the lighting, the textures, the speculars on the water and the blooming, the textures on things. Granted, I own a horse of a PC with lots of GPU that games are only now starting to tax, but its nice to see them packaging it all up in a system where they will target 30 or 60 frames per second, depending on the game.......and hopefully be able to maintain it consistently.

The dog and pony b.s. aside (Developers, sit down and shut up with the endless smoke-blowing-up-the-keister-of-Sony....just show your wares), Sony seems to be delivering in the next gen. I wont be buying one at launch, but when the games pile up I'm sure I'll be "in for 1" at some point.

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post #103 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 02:50 PM
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I think if Sony or the publishers would simply charge a $10 fee, for a one time transfer of ownership, I think that would be perfectly fair. Gamers will still be able to sell their games, and you'd still be able to buy used games if you can find an original owner. The $10 fee would be a factor, but hopefully that $10 fee would encourage people to take GameStop out of the equation, and instead, it will be gamers just selling to other gamers, and leaving gamestop out of the picture.

Not coming down on you Bro, but why do gamers think it's OK that Game Dev's get to Double Dip on their product. It was already bought and paid for, what happens afterwards is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. What makes them sooooo special that they get to do what no other business that sells goods gets to do. Ford/Chevy DO NOT get to Double Dip when I decide to sell my cars. If I sell my PS3 or 360 Sony or MSFT don't get another cut. I am starting to get sick and tired of these crybaby Publishers/Dev's who think the world revolves around them. I use Gamefly ALOT because most of these games are not worth $60. What happens to Gamefly when this happens? The reason PC gamers don't care about this is because Steam sells games Super Cheap at least 3X a year (and year round as well). These Greedy Console Dev's will NEVER do this. Everyday that I hear about the limitations of the NextGen from Sony/MSFT, makes me feel good that my PC & Wii U will suffice for the NextGen.

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post #104 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 02:54 PM
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The video for Killzone posted on this forum under its own thread wasn't live gameplay? Once they got to the action, it certainly looked like it to me. ??


Part of it was. The Jimmy Fallon stuff was obviously legit. Of course, is that running on final hardware ? There is always a bit of question as to how real all of this is, until they show something running on the final hardware. Of course, it will probably be late September before we see that.
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post #105 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 03:06 PM
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Killzone was obviously running on a Devkit.

Watch Dogs was probably the PC version prerecorded at 1080p 30fps with Vsync left off to make it look more "real"

Deep Down was a target render made using the new MT Frameworks engine.

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post #106 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 03:07 PM
 
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So, how can Sony afford to put so much GDDR5 in the PS4? Digital Foundry points out that Nvidia's GeForce Titan includes 6GB of GDDR5 and costs $1000. Will this be another situation where they sell the console at a loss and hope to make it up on software?

Economies of scale.


Plus the fact that a lot of the cost of a vcard isnt even the RAM, on top of the fact that high end card lines ALWAY soak the idiots that pay for them.

You could buy a card with 66% the power and pay 50% less. THEN overclock it another 15%!

All the while the manufacturers and retailers get a margin on it too.


Anyways, on a similar topic, i'm seeing a lot of PC flavored sites trying to apple apples compare these specs "cause AMD". Seems horribly wrong to me, especially since these machines will still be pushing devs to code to the metal. Master race need something to reassure themselves I guess... meh.
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post #107 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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Of the games that were shown, how many did we actually see "true", "legit" gameplay footage ?
Not much. The game that we saw the most actual gameplay from was Watch Dogs, and that was subsequently revealed to be on a PC with "PS4-like" specs. Though, as we all now know, the PS4 is effectively a PC with an APU, so it was probably a fair approximation.

Obviously we'll see a lot more live play footage come E3. But I don't expect to be bowled over by the graphics (it sounds like we can expect something in the neighborhood of a current PC with an HD7870 or HD7950). The bigger deal will be what Sony does with the social and network features.

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post #108 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 04:22 PM
 
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Not much. The game that we saw the most actual gameplay from was Watch Dogs, and that was subsequently revealed to be on a PC with "PS4-like" specs. Though, as we all now know, the PS4 is effectively a PC with an APU, so it was probably a fair approximation.

Obviously we'll see a lot more live play footage come E3. But I don't expect to be bowled over by the graphics (it sounds like we can expect something in the neighborhood of a current PC with an HD7870 or HD7950). The bigger deal will be what Sony does with the social and network features.

Not entirely true. As I said above, just being a console you really can't compare it to a PC, even with similar hardware. They're going to get a lot more mileage out of these consoles than even a better spec'd PC because they won't have to worry about scaling and multiple configurations. PC gaming relies on brute force to overcome a lot of those obstacles, and even then sometimes you need a special released driver from Nvidia or ATI.

Of course that's only going to be the developers that put the effort in to code to the systems. But, thats every Gen. It's just going to be exponentially easier this Gen for those that do.

Now a question, does anyone have a in depth article on the benefits of using a unified memory pool over a segregated one, in terms of consoles? Seems like this setup is a disadvantage on the PC front mostly, but all I've been hearing is console Dev's screaming since the PS2 days that it's the ace in the hole and wondering why (from a technical standpoint)
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post #109 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 04:50 PM
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Not entirely true. As I said above, just being a console you really can't compare it to a PC, even with similar hardware. They're going to get a lot more mileage out of these consoles than even a better spec'd PC because they won't have to worry about scaling and multiple configurations. PC gaming relies on brute force to overcome a lot of those obstacles, and even then sometimes you need a special released driver from Nvidia or ATI.

Of course that's only going to be the developers that put the effort in to code to the systems. But, thats every Gen. It's just going to be exponentially easier this Gen for those that do.

Now a question, does anyone have a in depth article on the benefits of using a unified memory pool over a segregated one, in terms of consoles? Seems like this setup is a disadvantage on the PC front mostly, but all I've been hearing is console Dev's screaming since the PS2 days that it's the ace in the hole and wondering why (from a technical standpoint)

It's been a problem on PCs because main system memory is usually of the slow variety. DDR3 is still as fast as it gets, GDDR5 is used on video cards for a reason. And now that GPUs can run general purpose code, having them both share the same memory space means they can really optimize without having to copy back and forth between main and video memory.

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post #110 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 07:22 PM
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Not entirely true. As I said above, just being a console you really can't compare it to a PC, even with similar hardware. They're going to get a lot more mileage out of these consoles than even a better spec'd PC because they won't have to worry about scaling and multiple configurations. PC gaming relies on brute force to overcome a lot of those obstacles, and even then sometimes you need a special released driver from Nvidia or ATI.

Of course that's only going to be the developers that put the effort in to code to the systems. But, thats every Gen. It's just going to be exponentially easier this Gen for those that do.
Absolutely. I was speaking in more general terms. You're right that the Uncharted and GoW games stand among the best the PC can put out, even on high-end rigs. But those are few and far between, and getting fewer and farther between (as more first and second party devs have either gotten dismantled or gone mulitplatform. Insomniac, Bungie, etc.).

So those specs do give a reasonable ballpark of what we can expect--despite a few likely exceptions.

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post #111 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 08:24 PM
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So, how can Sony afford to put so much GDDR5 in the PS4? Digital Foundry points out that Nvidia's GeForce Titan includes 6GB of GDDR5 and costs $1000. Will this be another situation where they sell the console at a loss and hope to make it up on software?

Then DF are idiots. It is $1000 for many reasons, and the RAM is a small part. Sony will pay like $10-$12 per GB at most. The PS3 had really expensive components, $200 Cell, $300 BD drive, etc. The PS4 has like a $80 APU, GDDR5 and the rest. I'd be very surprised if they sold it for more than $399-$429 only taking a small loss, which is made up with a purchase of a game and extra controller.

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post #112 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 10:08 PM
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Then DF are idiots. It is $1000 for many reasons, and the RAM is a small part. Sony will pay like $10-$12 per GB at most. The PS3 had really expensive components, $200 Cell, $300 BD drive, etc. The PS4 has like a $80 APU, GDDR5 and the rest. I'd be very surprised if they sold it for more than $399-$429 only taking a small loss, which is made up with a purchase of a game and extra controller.

$89 Cell
$125 bluray
$129 RSX

That was Sony's wholesale price at launch for the PS3.

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post #113 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 10:29 PM
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Interested, but not excited. They have time to win me over.
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post #114 of 17093 Old 02-22-2013, 10:46 PM
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Thanks for all the info on the cost of GDDR5 RAM; I'm glad to hear Sony won't be losing a fortune on every machine.
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post #115 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 07:48 AM
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$89 Cell
$125 bluray
$129 RSX

That was Sony's wholesale price at launch for the PS3.

There was an article somewhere near the launch of the PS3 of a company that took a part the PS3 and basically computed the cost of each part and the total of each console was like $800.
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post #116 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 08:14 AM
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There was an article somewhere near the launch of the PS3 of a company that took a part the PS3 and basically computed the cost of each part and the total of each console was like $800.

Yep. That is where I got those numbers. Here is the link.

http://news.cnet.com/Is-Sony-eating-hundreds-of-dollars-on-each-PS3/2100-1043_3-6136204.html?tag=mncol

And in 2010 they had it reduced down to $336 for the 120gb slim. They didn't truly start to make a profit per unit until the Super Slim launched. They will not repeat that mistake again, and with them going with a APU, they won't.

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post #117 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 08:28 AM
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While I know I'm going to want this when it launches, I'm gonna hold back and show some restraint.

Hopefully by Christmas of 2014 (roughly a year after launch) the price may come down and their latest SKU will have whatever initial bugs it contains (you know the first models will have them) worked out.
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post #118 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 08:32 AM
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$89 Cell
$125 bluray
$129 RSX

That was Sony's wholesale price at launch for the PS3.

I bet the price of RSX isn't that much different now. There's a reason why companies stop working with Nvidia.
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post #119 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 08:34 AM
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Ok, I'll be the old-guard, stick in the mud...I'm a little disappointed the Cell architecture is being abandoned. It seems like the PS4 that has been announced here is just a next-gen Xbox. The whole exotic and unique machinery mystique has gone out the window (something that appealed to me about Sony's consoles).

That said, I totally "get it" that developers will be very happy designing software to a familiar x86 platform. Gameplay is what it is all about in the end, but there will always still be a little part of me that will miss the specter of the visionary, out-of-the-box style approach to hardware. This coming generation of game consoles, I will really have to wonder what is the difference of getting the new Xbox or new Playstation, because I really don't see one at this point (other than my being more familiar and comfortable with Sony UI themes at this point, but that is a pretty mindless reason to prefer one over another). Who knows...I might just be at that age where I am just fundamentally weening off the videogaming scene entirely (not out of scorn, but just disinterest and sheer lack of participation as of late, on my part).

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post #120 of 17093 Old 02-23-2013, 08:35 AM
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So, how can Sony afford to put so much GDDR5 in the PS4? Digital Foundry points out that Nvidia's GeForce Titan includes 6GB of GDDR5 and costs $1000. Will this be another situation where they sell the console at a loss and hope to make it up on software?

The Titan is all margin. It probably doesn't cost them that much more to make than the 680.
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