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post #1201 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:34 PM
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What an interesting week in the console space. Here's my take on a few things:

I fear that the disc locked to an account practice, while dumb and counter productive, is going to end up being the standard and Sony is going to announce their plan at E3. If they are going keep things as now, they would have been all over the free goodwill by announcing as much. I suppose Sony might end up standing against the publishers on this, but then you might get a situation like the Wii U and major third party support goes away. Really hope I'm wrong here.

Cloud computing sounds great and is something I hope Sony provides when they get Gaikai going, but don't ruin games with it trying to prove a point. Forcing cloud computing on the developers "because the can" is going to make for some clunky games even after launch. If they can make it seamless that's great, but this smacks of pie in the sky.

Lastly, and most importantly, where is the photo leak of the PS4??!! This being almost June, there has to be a production line running somewhere building practice units. Where is the disgruntled Foxconn employee with the world's worst phone camera, snapping pics of the PS4 logo from the part he smuggled into the break room?! This is an awful time for Sony to be fixing their info leaks, just awful smile.gif

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post #1202 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:34 PM
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I still feel like there's more to the story than they're letting on.

Maybe their take on it is just to take a step back, and let each individual publisher decide and handle the DRM on their own. They still get to appear to be the good guy, but if a lot of publishers go that route, it could end up being a lot worse for gamers than if it was just centrally managed.

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post #1203 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I still feel like there's more to the story than they're letting on.

Maybe their take on it is just to take a step back, and let each individual publisher decide and handle the DRM on their own. They still get to appear to be the good guy, but if a lot of publishers go that route, it could end up being a lot worse for gamers than if it was just centrally managed.

If you never need to go online, they're going to need quite the workaround to disable disc based games. If it's just RFID, that system should be hacked relatively shortly, so why bother?

That’s what I keep coming back to. Console doesn’t need an internet connection vs nuking used games seems to be at odds IMO. Even if they allow pblishers some leway to do as they want, they'd still need a specific workaround for offline consoles.
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post #1204 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Sony has chimed in three times on the twitter campaign issue over the last few days, indicating that they are listening....

SCEA Producer:



Sony Worldwide Studios head manager



Sony head of hardware marketing:

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post #1205 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I still feel like there's more to the story than they're letting on.

Maybe their take on it is just to take a step back, and let each individual publisher decide and handle the DRM on their own. They still get to appear to be the good guy, but if a lot of publishers go that route, it could end up being a lot worse for gamers than if it was just centrally managed.
Not to mention the fact that if Sony doesn't come out and demand some of the profit for selling used games, you'd have to imagine that Gamestop and other retailers are going to push the PS4 hard in their stores.

And I agree with Crash44, if Sony really wasn't going to go down the DRM road, I would think that they would come out and say it. But then again, if they wait until E3, where gamers are watching, it would be the perfect way to close out with a bang. "Hey everyone, here's the system. Oh, and we won't restrict used games". Drop the mic and walk off the stage to a bunch of real applause, not fake crap from their employees.

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post #1206 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

^^^ Sony has chimed in three times on the twitter campaign issue over the last few days, indicating that they are listening....

SCEA Producer:



Sony Worldwide Studios head manager



Sony head of hardware marketing:

Why haven't Sony gone and done what MS did, and make a spokesperson for the company. They could have Sid Shuman be their Major Nelson. Someone that can relay information to people on twitter. With that being said, it looks like I have a couple more people to follow on twitter now, so thanks Joeblow.

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post #1207 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

If you never need to go online, they're going to need quite the workaround to disable disc based games. If it's just RFID, that system should be hacked relatively shortly, so why bother?

That’s what I keep coming back to. Console doesn’t need an internet connection vs nuking used games seems to be at odds IMO. Even if they allow pblishers some leway to do as they want, they'd still need a specific workaround for offline consoles.

The console might not require a net connection....but the individual games might. Even if they're single player. Every publisher might have their own policy, Sony came out and said a while ago something along the lines of "its up to the publishers". The publishers are the ones that really want this. That's what I'm afraid of. Then whether or not you can play a game would be at the mercy of the individual publishers keeping their servers alive, and those probably wouldn't last as long as the central Microsoft ones. You might not be able to trade in some games at all, you couldn't assume a game could be played offline, etc.

The thought of how ugly that kind of scenario would be.....I really think I'd prefer the single policy for everyone instead.
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post #1208 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The console might not require a net connection....but the individual games might. Even if they're single player. Every publisher might have their own policy, Sony came out and said a while ago something along the lines of "its up to the publishers". The publishers are the ones that really want this. That's what I'm afraid of. Then whether or not you can play a game would be at the mercy of the individual publishers keeping their servers alive, and those probably wouldn't last as long as the central Microsoft ones. You might not be able to trade in some games at all, you couldn't assume a game could be played offline, etc.

The thought of how ugly that kind of scenario would be.....I really think I'd prefer the single policy for everyone instead.
Damn Bd, I never thought of it like that. You raise some legit concerns.

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post #1209 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:20 PM
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Damn Bd, I never thought of it like that. You raise some legit concerns.

It's increasingly becoming the only way to reconcile everything they're saying. I don't think they can stop this train. So their compromise with the publishers could be "we won't stop you, but we won't help you either."

On the one hand, they're the good guy for not playing ball with the publishers and helping to "take away consumer's rights."

On the other hand, they wouldn't exactly be standing up for gamers, and we'd be at the mercy of whatever the publishers decided. And a lot of what they've tried on the PC in the past is way worse than anything MS has proposed. Smaller publishers and indies probably wouldn't have the resources and desire to implement something like that.....but EA and Ubisoft left to their own devices....ugh.

Be careful what you wish for, cause you might not like it when you get it.
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post #1210 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:24 PM
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That's why they are promoting love4indie. If you hate EAs DRM, buy Pixeljunk instead.
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post #1211 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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At what point does all this stuff become to intrusive to put up with it. I play consoles because when I finally get time to play something, I just want to throw the disc in my console and play it. Hopefully things don't get too complicated next gen.
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post #1212 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:32 PM
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Publishers need to sell games though. If gamers respond with holding off on purchases because they cannot or do not want to register online, that may change things. For Xbone, this is not an issue because you need internet to buy the console but not for PS4. PS4 players will expect offline capabilities.

We will see what happens. Publishers do not have ultimate control, gamers do. It just needs to be seen how much gamers are willing to give up their rights to play games.
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post #1213 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:40 PM
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Publishers need to sell games though. If gamers respond with holding off on purchases because they cannot or do not want to register online, that may change things. For Xbone, this is not an issue because you need internet to buy the console but not for PS4. PS4 players will expect offline capabilities.

We will see what happens. Publishers do not have ultimate control, gamers do. It just needs to be seen how much gamers are willing to give up their rights to play games.

Looking at the PC side, with diablo 3....I think we already know the answer to that question. You have to register for an account, and the game is locked to that one account for good. It's can't be resold or traded or purchased used. Your internet can't drop for more than 5 seconds. The day those servers shut down, the game essentially dies. It's everything everyone has been complaining about and more, and its restrictions are worse than what it looks like MS will do.

It sold over 10 million copies.
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post #1214 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 02:50 PM
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A persistent internet connection is just something expected for PC's and while I didn't care for the always on aspect of Diablo 3 it doesn't impact me as all my other PC games require internet access. However, I never expect to sell PC games, it would be nice but it just wasn't something that was done for the most part as opposed to console games.

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post #1215 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 03:14 PM
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I will reserve judgement. I thought Diablo was a mess. Also, do all parents want little Johnny on a connected console?
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post #1216 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Looking at the PC side, with diablo 3....I think we already know the answer to that question. You have to register for an account, and the game is locked to that one account for good. It's can't be resold or traded or purchased used. Your internet can't drop for more than 5 seconds. The day those servers shut down, the game essentially dies. It's everything everyone has been complaining about and more, and its restrictions are worse than what it looks like MS will do.

It sold over 10 million copies.
Diablo 3 is not the best of examples for forced DRM since the PS3/PS4 ports will be improved in many ways. For example, you will be able to play it offline on the Sony consoles if you wish.

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post #1217 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 04:00 PM
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Diablo 3 is not the best of examples for forced DRM since the PS3/PS4 ports will be improved in many ways. For example, you will be able to play it offline on the Sony consoles if you wish.

Sure, I use it only as an example to demonstrate that all those DRM complaints go out the window when there's a highly anticipated game and gamers simply have no other option. The same will go for a whole console.

But activision may have decided not to have those restrictions, maybe cause they feel less need to protect a game theyve already made so much money from. What are the consequences of that? You'll need the disc in the drive on PS4, but not on PC. If you play the game in multiple places, you'll prob now need to carry the disc and/or save file around. The PS4 version can be lost or stolen, the PC version can't, just download it again. If hackers ever crack the PS4 open to allow piracy, like every other console in history, including the PS3....they'll probably regret that decision. And without a guaranteed connection to patch security holes or change encryption keys, those PS4s are pirate boxes for good, whereas the Xbox one is essentially the first pirate-proof console. That is going to scare a lot of publishers into being more restrictive on PS4, and because there's no remaining bastion of the old model, gamers can't go elsewhere if it bothers them.

Now assume they decide its not worth it to keep it offline for D4, and Sony gives them the liberty to implement the exact same system they have on PC. But Microsoft doesnt - they say you have to use our activation servers, and only ours. Diablo 4 comes out - who's servers do you think will better handle the burden, MS's or blizzards? Who's do you think is more likely to be up 10-20 years from now? I'd put my money on Microsoft in both cases. Again maybe not the best example cause both probably will be around in 20 years....but what if it was Sega, or whoever the next THQ is?

If Sony wants to kick the can down the road, I don't think they're to blame for any of this....but there is a very real potential that the result is going to be worse in the end.
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post #1218 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 04:08 PM
 
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^^^ Sony has chimed in three times on the twitter campaign issue over the last few days, indicating that they are listening....

SCEA Producer:



Sony Worldwide Studios head manager



Sony head of hardware marketing:

If they're smart they'll listen. In the end if it is as big a deal as people are making, they'd have no problem getting to 10 million Q1 sales with a DRM-less, more powerful machine priced similarly. Publishers can't afford to ignore a console with those types of userbases (look at all the effort that went into the Wii, despite 3rd party issues).

In the end there's zero data that these anti-consumer policies will bring in more revenue, and there's even arguments suggesting publisher presumptions are deeply flawed. Biting the hand that feeds you is bad policy, and it's not publishers spending their entertainment dollars, funding the industry.
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It's increasingly becoming the only way to reconcile everything they're saying. I don't think they can stop this train. So their compromise with the publishers could be "we won't stop you, but we won't help you either."

On the one hand, they're the good guy for not playing ball with the publishers and helping to "take away consumer's rights."

On the other hand, they wouldn't exactly be standing up for gamers, and we'd be at the mercy of whatever the publishers decided. And a lot of what they've tried on the PC in the past is way worse than anything MS has proposed. Smaller publishers and indies probably wouldn't have the resources and desire to implement something like that.....but EA and Ubisoft left to their own devices....ugh.

Be careful what you wish for, cause you might not like it when you get it.

Could be.

But I think they also said their 1st party (ie Sony) stuff won't do it. At least that creates a market, and allows publishers to try different things. Smaller publishers would probably not bother and call it another plus for buying their wares. Consumers would also be able to punish games and publishers that do it, and support those who don't.

From the big publisher perspective, that system is just as bad as none I'm betting. It puts the heat on them for the crappy anti-consumer policies they so desperately want.
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post #1219 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 04:13 PM
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That's why they are promoting love4indie. If you hate EAs DRM, buy Pixeljunk instead.
Exactly. It's been clear for a good long while that AAA publishing is eating its own tail. This latest round of anti-used game, anti-consumerist BS is a sign of the end times. We're looking now at a situation where the industry is going in two distinct directions: one is the uber-expensive, bloated, bland AAA blockbusters designed for casual dudebro players (CoD, Assassin's Creed, EA Sports, etc); the other is the games for gamers.

And because those big games are increasingly expensive to make and because the audience isn't growing, publishers are having to squeeze profits in more ways (like attacking the resale market). But that can't go on forever. It's a great time to be a gamer, but it's a terrible time for AAA games (they're bland, bloated, and expensive). It's encouraging to see a big company like Sony supporting smaller and independent games.

tl;dr: I'm pretty much done with AAA games.
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post #1220 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 05:08 PM
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Could be.

But I think they also said their 1st party (ie Sony) stuff won't do it. At least that creates a market, and allows publishers to try different things. Smaller publishers would probably not bother and call it another plus for buying their wares. Consumers would also be able to punish games and publishers that do it, and support those who don't.

From the big publisher perspective, that system is just as bad as none I'm betting. It puts the heat on them for the crappy anti-consumer policies they so desperately want.

Yeah, there would be some hypocrisy if they went and did it themselves. It's hard to say how it really all plays out. And it does give gamers the ability to decide on a game by game basis. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of merit to the idea of letting the publishers figure it out for themselves, it doesn't necessarily have to be a doomsday scenario. But you look at the PC...by and large publishers have adopted some amount of DRM that involves online activation.

I think the single biggest thing that determines how this plays out is the status of piracy on the PS4. It's eradicated from Xbox one, more difficult than it ever has been on PC. But if for the PS4 its as easy as it was on the PS3....then I think online activation will become the norm. Their copyright protection is only as strong as the weakest link, and if that weak link is the PS4, they'll fight it with whatever tools they have. With PS3 they didn't have a choice to do that, but if Sony lets them on PS4....then they're going to. And then Sony is stuck with the worst of both worlds for those games. So hopefully that doesn't happen too early in the console's life.

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post #1221 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 05:36 PM
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What makes you think Piracy is eradicated on the Xbone? Hackers will crack the online call home, hackers will crack the activation DRM, and hackers will pirate games. Nothing is uncrackable, to say it is, is just inviting hackers to crack it, so they can prove you wrong.
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post #1222 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 05:41 PM
 
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Yup, in the end it's just a matter of what interests them most: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22692778

Sony was doing fine until it stirred a hornets nest by disabling other OS. Crackers released all their info and then foreign hackers found a way to monetize it (by stealing CC data). Fun times!
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Yup, in the end it's just a matter of what interests them most: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22692778

Sony was doing fine until it stirred a hornets nest by disabling other OS. Crackers released all their info and then foreign hackers found a way to monetize it (by stealing CC data). Fun times!
The fun part was that the PS3 was wide open to begin with. The security was aweful, but no decent hackers cared because it had other OS and that is all they cared about. The fact that Sony actually managed to lock the system back down is astounding, that hack should have forever opened the PS3 to piracy.

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post #1224 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 05:56 PM
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MS also has quite the history of being the subject of malicious hacks on their software.
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post #1225 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 06:21 PM
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What makes you think Piracy is eradicated on the Xbone? Hackers will crack the online call home, hackers will crack the activation DRM, and hackers will pirate games. Nothing is uncrackable, to say it is, is just inviting hackers to crack it, so they can prove you wrong.
Xbone will be running a modified Win8 and IE. The system will probably be hacked open in the first 30 days after launch.

It's funny how "the industry" wants to go through all these hoops to lock things down when piracy and used games aren't even the problem.

Confidence said it above- bloated budgets. Perfect example: new Tomb Raider. It sold around 3.5 million copies and Square Enix labelled it a financial failure. So one of two things happened:

1) Tomb Raider lost 2 million in sales to used games and piracy.
2) Tomb Raider had a badly mismanaged budget along with development inefficiency.

While you and I might think Option 2 is the obvious answer "the industry" thinks Option 1 is what really happened.

Unless the devs and publishers decide to look in the mirror, instead of blaming everything else, there won't be a cure for the giant losses and studio closures. Until that happens be prepared for more losses, complicated procedures to use the games you bought, and probably a price jump on the cost of new console games. Oh, and lots of finger pointing.

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post #1226 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 06:30 PM
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What makes you think Piracy is eradicated on the Xbone? Hackers will crack the online call home, hackers will crack the activation DRM, and hackers will pirate games. Nothing is uncrackable, to say it is, is just inviting hackers to crack it, so they can prove you wrong.

Its the fact that the Xbox requires the connection that changes everything.

Modchips and burned games won't work anymore since the servers won't activate a game without a valid serial, and I'm sure they'll keep a log of exactly which keys were actually distributed....so forget about keygens too.

They can try and break the encryption on the discs and hard drive.....but every single title and hard drive can use a different encryption key - the key will just be downloaded during the activation. So finding the key for one game or console doesn't compromise the rest of them, and even then....they can change it whenever they want by patching the executables with a new one that uses a different key.

Normally I'd agree with you, but this is the first time I really think the story will be different. Anyone who even tries to tamper with it is basically going to have a brick in no time at all. It's a closed system with a daily phone home, its essentially part of microsoft's network. You can temporarily break into networks, but not permanently. The hackers will have to deal with multiple levels of security and authentication that they've never had to before, all under a constant watchful eye.

If they ever manage it, it won't last, and seeing how an x1 that can't connect to live is basically dead, and having your account banned probably means you lose all your games....it's going to take a very foolish person to even try.

I'm sure some will try for the sport of it, and maybe some will succeed for a few hours or days. But because they don't have to worry about supporting offline systems, they can completely close any hole. That was the achilles heel of the previous consoles, and now its armor plated and guarded 24/7.

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post #1227 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 06:30 PM
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Which executive will blame themselves for a failure? Never gonna happen...
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post #1228 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 06:45 PM
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Which executive will blame themselves for a failure? Never gonna happen...

Iwata.

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/03/iwata-apologizes-to-early-nintendo-3ds-adopters/

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/11/29/iwata-apologizes-for-wii-us-massive-update/

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-01-23-iwata-apologizes-for-wii-u-software-drought

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post #1229 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 06:57 PM
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post #1230 of 17095 Old 05-28-2013, 07:03 PM
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He does not take ownership of the issues. They are not really apologies as much as explanations of issues.

He still put his name on the issue, which is more than most would do.

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