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post #1531 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by samendolaro View Post

Sony as already mentioned that they will be DRM free and they did not require an internet connection but Nothing is going to stop a publisher from embedding their games such that it requires you to access their servers for verification or game play and their restrictions can be as harsh as they wish.
Which is the same possibility that now exists on the PS3.

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Blizzard has done that with Diablo III for PC , you can't play the game (even the single player ) without a connection.
Which has been removed for the Playstation 3 &4 versions of Diablo 3. 100% offline play (including co-op) if you wish.

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Steam has also done this to some extent but they at least do allow you to play without a connection. But in both of these cases you can't resell your games (in the usual sense) but you can sell your accounts. So in a way the MS DRM policy which allows the 1 time transfer of a game is better then what has been implemented on the PC in that it allows you to sell it once .
Steam doesn't sell physical games, just digital. There was no confirmation that you could resell your digital XBone games, and no one expects to be able to resell digital PS3 games.

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it looks like this will be my first PS( as long as sony doesn't do something stupid) so looking forward to E3
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post #1532 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 08:38 AM
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What will be something to watch is when someone hacks an XB1 accounts then just sends the games to random people on the friends lists or add themselves as a friend then wait the 30 days then they can send the games to themselves.. With the sell once rule you can't get them back . MS would need to verify each and every instance was not a "Sale" . I can see this as being a major problem in the future . Accounts get hacked all the time . Only now the victims can be left with nothing even if they own the original disks.

Or they loose their account entirely and all the games with it ....
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post #1533 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Sony has said that they will not require an internet connection but publishers can require it. Are you saying that Sony is lying?
I'm saying that Sony has made statements that contradict logic, and that I want to see what their actual policy is. And I hope to know more about that on Monday. Their messages have been just as mixed as Microsoft's on the matter... They've just suffered less foot-in-mouth disease.

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post #1534 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Sony has said that they will not require an internet connection but publishers can require it. Are you saying that Sony is lying?

MS could have relieved alot of heat off themselves by taking the same approach.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #1535 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 08:51 AM
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Agreed. But I think MS is going after Apple and Google with Sony just being a secondary competitor. It is clearly not just about gaming for them anymore. I think gaming is actually becoming secondary for them.
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post #1536 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Agreed. But I think MS is going after Apple and Google with Sony just being a secondary competitor. It is clearly not just about gaming for them anymore. I think gaming is actually becoming secondary for them.
Which makes me want to just go the PS4/PC route more. I will most likely buy a PC as soon as I get back from vacation, and use it for the next year or so and then pick up a PS4 for the awesome exclusives.

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post #1537 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Agreed. But I think MS is going after Apple and Google with Sony just being a secondary competitor. It is clearly not just about gaming for them anymore. I think gaming is actually becoming secondary for them.

....which ultimately is what is driving gamers to PS4. MS, as you suggest, is all about taking over the living room at this point. They want the xbox to be the hub of your entertainment. Which may appeal to some. Me? I just want a good ole-fashioned gaming-centric system with bells and whistles being a secondary function, not the other way around. Sony used the PS3 as a means to win the HD home format wars, so it's good to see that they're back to focusing 'mainly' on gaming with Ps4( or so it appears).
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Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #1538 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I'm saying that Sony has made statements that contradict logic, and that I want to see what their actual policy is. And I hope to know more about that on Monday. Their messages have been just as mixed as Microsoft's on the matter... They've just suffered less foot-in-mouth disease.

No they haven't...

They might have lied, but there's nothing illogical about their previous statements. Infact, it's their current policy on the PS3...
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post #1539 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:12 AM
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I use GameFly so the Xbox One is not an option for me. Please Sony, don't force me to retire from console gaming, support game rentals!

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post #1540 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I use GameFly so the Xbox One is not an option for me. Please Sony, don't force me to retire from console gaming, support game rentals!

People always forget Nintendo, who has always stuck by games. No used blocks of any kind (not even online passes in EA games) and full support for used games.

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post #1541 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

People always forget Nintendo, who has always stuck by games. No used blocks of any kind (not even online passes in EA games) and full support for used games.

Not to forget BC going back to last gen. Kinda bummed that the PS4 isn't BC with physical PS3 games. Wonder if I can sneak another console into my TV cabinet without the wifey noticing. wink.gif

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #1542 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

No they haven't...

They might have lied, but there's nothing illogical about their previous statements. Infact, it's their current policy on the PS3...
Does the PS3 let you change between retail games instantly without changing discs? Does it background load every game to the HDD and then not require the disc? Then explain to me how you think PS4 is going to do those things and be DRM-free. Seriously. Pretend you're designing the system... Describe to me how you make those two things work.

I don't think they've lied. But the things they have said do not align with logic. And the only thing that would logically make sense based on what they've actually said is online verification when you're connected to the internet so you can play games you bought without the discs and disc-based verification for offline use. I do hope the latter is something they're doing... but don't think they're not going to have to do the former if they want to make this disc-free stuff work and keep publishers happy.

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post #1543 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rolltide1017 View Post

I use GameFly so the Xbox One is not an option for me. Please Sony, don't force me to retire from console gaming, support game rentals!
FYI: They haven't said rentals will never happen, just that they won't happen at launch. If they have to provide a method for de-authorizing the discs from whoever previously used them, this adds another layer of processing to GameFly's distribution centers beyond just scanning the barcode and putting it back in the system. I suspect that they'll work that out in due course.

Or maybe they won't... This new digital paradigm may completely eschew rentals as an option. We shall see.

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post #1544 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I don't think they've lied. But the things they have said do not align with logic. And the only thing that would logically make sense based on what they've actually said is online verification when you're connected to the internet so you can play games you bought without the discs and disc-based verification for offline use. I do hope the latter is something they're doing... but don't think they're not going to have to do the former if they want to make this disc-free stuff work and keep publishers happy.

If this is true, then how did they not lie? If they did lie, I will be first to come down on them but I think (hope) they know they have a leg up on MS here. We may well see it next generation though depending on user acceptance in this gen. I find it interesting that people willingly give up their ownership with, it is not so bad....while they facilitate their forfeiture of their ownership as they buy into it.
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post #1545 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

FYI: They haven't said rentals will never happen, just that they won't happen at launch. If they have to provide a method for de-authorizing the discs from whoever previously used them, this adds another layer of processing to GameFly's distribution centers beyond just scanning the barcode and putting it back in the system. I suspect that they'll work that out in due course.

Or maybe they won't... This new digital paradigm may completely eschew rentals as an option. We shall see.

If this is all collusion, why didn't Gamefly already have this planned out? It seems like MS is flying by the seat of their pants on all this.
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post #1546 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

If this is true, then how did they not lie? If they did lie, I will be first to come down on them but I think (hope) they know they have a leg up on MS here. We may well see it next generation though depending on user acceptance in this gen. I find it interesting that people willingly give up their ownership with, it is not so bad....while they facilitate their forfeiture of their ownership as they buy into it.
That's the rub... You're giving up something you only THOUGHT you had. It was an illusion of ownership when all you owned was the media it came on and a license to use it. Software is licensed, not sold. And despite how familiar the GameStop used game system has become to you, that was a fact even with cartridges, though the industry was too young to address it. But then, at that time, used game sales weren't cutting into that critical first two weeks on the market that is so important to publishers. It's no different than other types of software, no matter how much we try to draw that line. I can't put a copy of Photoshop in my PC, use it while I want, then sell it to someone else... nor can I use it so long as the disc is in the drive.

It's a sea change. It will come with resistance, as all changes do.

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post #1547 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

If this is all collusion, why didn't Gamefly already have this planned out? It seems like MS is flying by the seat of their pants on all this.
I would imagine because Gamefly has less than half a million people renting, whereas GameStop's used game system takes priority and was dealt with first. Hence, GameStop's immediate e-mail that went out on this last night. There's still 5 months before launch though... Maybe we'll see more on rentals before then.

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post #1548 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Does the PS3 let you change between retail games instantly without changing discs? Does it background load every game to the HDD and then not require the disc? Then explain to me how you think PS4 is going to do those things and be DRM-free. Seriously. Pretend you're designing the system... Describe to me how you make those two things work.

I don't think they've lied. But the things they have said do not align with logic. And the only thing that would logically make sense based on what they've actually said is online verification when you're connected to the internet so you can play games you bought without the discs and disc-based verification for offline use. I do hope the latter is something they're doing... but don't think they're not going to have to do the former if they want to make this disc-free stuff work and keep publishers happy.

You sure are a MS shrill, aren't you? I'm not going to talk circles with you anymore. You said something Sony doesn’t do, I correct the record, and now you ignore it and move onto the next talking point.

Hopefully they’re paying you well, because this is cluster frak of epic portions for MS and there’s no way around it. Sonys up next, but all the MS talking points in the world won't matter if their policy follows the statements they put out.

If not, the console gaming industry is all in, and they might find out their hand is pretty damn weak.
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post #1549 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

That's the rub... You're giving up something you only THOUGHT you had. It was an illusion of ownership when all you owned was the media it came on and a license to use it. Software is licensed, not sold. And despite how familiar the GameStop used game system has become to you, that was a fact even with cartridges, though the industry was too young to address it. But then, at that time, used game sales weren't cutting into that critical first two weeks on the market that is so important to publishers. It's no different than other types of software, no matter how much we try to draw that line. I can't put a copy of Photoshop in my PC, use it while I want, then sell it to someone else... nor can I use it so long as the disc is in the drive.

It's a sea change. It will come with resistance, as all changes do.

A few jurisdictions disagree with you:

Europe

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9228762/EU_court_rules_resale_of_used_software_licenses_is_legal_even_online

Washington

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software/

And funny enough, the US of A

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
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post #1550 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 11:16 AM
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When did Sony say you wouldn't need the disc to verify ownership anymore?

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post #1551 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 11:29 AM
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When did Sony say you wouldn't need the disc to verify ownership anymore?
They didn't say that. What they said during the developer part of their conference was that you could change between games instantly without changing discs, which is what I said.

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post #1552 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

They didn't say that. What they said during the developer part of their conference was that you could change between games instantly without changing discs, which is what I said.

They could have been referring to digitally purchased games, or in some other context. I really don't recall hearing that during the reveal though.

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post #1553 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 11:38 AM
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Ah, but they skirt first-sale doctrine by allowing resales via the method they've outlined, don't they? It will be interesting to see how they deal with this matter in the EU though.

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post #1554 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

You sure are a MS shrill, aren't you? I'm not going to talk circles with you anymore. You said something Sony doesn’t do, I correct the record, and now you ignore it and move onto the next talking point.

Hopefully they’re paying you well, because this is cluster frak of epic portions for MS and there’s no way around it. Sonys up next, but all the MS talking points in the world won't matter if their policy follows the statements they put out.

If not, the console gaming industry is all in, and they might find out their hand is pretty damn weak.
So in other words, you can't come up with a solution either. No one I've posed that to thus far has been able to. That's why I'm interested to see if Sony drops some of that functionality in favor of disc-based verification across the board, which is possible.

I'm not a MS "shill". If I missed something in the conversation, it's because I'm sitting at a law firm trying to get work done in between screwing around on the internet (and simultaneously chatting with a buddy who manages one of the stores all of this will affect). Feel free to reiterate what you wanted me to respond to if I glossed over it.

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post #1555 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

So in other words, you can't come up with a solution either. No one I've posed that to thus far has been able to. That's why I'm interested to see if Sony drops some of that functionality in favor of disc-based verification across the board, which is possible.

I'm not a MS "shill". If I missed something in the conversation, it's because I'm sitting at a law firm trying to get work done in between screwing around on the internet (and simultaneously chatting with a buddy who manages one of the stores all of this will affect). Feel free to reiterate what you wanted me to respond to if I glossed over it.
It could be as easy as it is an option. If you are connected to the internet you can do all this switching, but you can also still use a system like the 360 does where the game will spin at start up to verify it is in the drive. Either way, Sony isn't forcing online. They seem to have been pretty clear about that.

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post #1556 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:17 PM
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Sony did say that you can choose to run from disk if you wanted (your choice) so there are a bunch of possibilities on how they can implement this . We'll need to wait and see its all guessing at this point.
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post #1557 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:22 PM
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Sony did say that you can choose to run from disk if you wanted (your choice) so there are a bunch of possibilities oh how they can implement this . We'll need to wait and see its all guessing at this point.

It sounded like they had a stack of ideas but not all of them were confirmed for the final product. Hopefully the #NoDRM will have changed their mind along with this cluster that Microsoft is now stuck in.

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post #1558 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:22 PM
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Sony did say that you can choose to run from disk if you wanted (your choice) so there are a bunch of possibilities oh how they can implement this . We'll need to wait and see its all guessing at this point.

I thought both sides said that the BD drive is too slow to run the actual game from? That it needs to be installed on the hard drive and run from there?

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post #1559 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:24 PM
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I thought both sides said that the BD drive is too slow to run the actual game from? That it needs to be installed on the hard drive and run from there?

They could mean a partial install. Just game data, all cutscene audio and prerendered scenes remain on disc in a partial install.

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post #1560 of 17870 Old 06-07-2013, 12:28 PM
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I thought both sides said that the BD drive is too slow to run the actual game from? That it needs to be installed on the hard drive and run from there?
Cerny did. The install will take place in the background after you put the disc in, using the same system they're using to immediately play downloadable games.

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