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post #2341 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Wow, if you guys read on article on used Games, DRM, and industry woes; gotta be this one:

http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good--256227.phtml

So right.

Wow is right, that article is brutally on point.

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post #2342 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:27 PM
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Anyone else think it's weird that they are allowing people to troll the Xbox thread but apparently jumped on it in this thread?
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post #2343 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:32 PM
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I don't know anything about engineering, but Ben Heck always has praise for the internals of the PS systems. That's one area where they excel, apparently.

He was in love with the cooling system in the slim and was thrilled it had returned when he first tore into the super slim when building the all in one console. Start at the two minute mark.

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post #2344 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:36 PM
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I wonder what will happen when the Xbone hits Europe and people cannot resell games?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/

Top EU court upholds right to resell downloaded software
First-sale rights stronger in the EU than in the US.

by Timothy B. Lee - July 3 2012, 7:59am PDT
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
106

David Hepburn
The European Court of Justice has ruled that customers have a right to resell software they purchase regardless of whether the software was originally distributed on a physical medium or downloaded over the Internet. The ruling is a defeat for Oracle, which had argued that the court should uphold provisions in its license agreement prohibiting such transfers.

Software vendors have long argued that software is "licensed, not sold." This claim is in tension with the doctrine of copyright exhaustion (called the first sale doctrine in the United States), which holds that copyright law does not give rightsholders control over used copies of their work. And the principle has gotten even more murky as software is increasingly distributed directly over digital networks, meaning that there's no physical copy of the work to resell.

Oracle distributes its software online. Once a customer has signed a licensing agreement, they have an unlimited right to download copies of the database software from Oracle's website, and to install as many copies of the software as specified in the licensing agreement. A company called UsedSoft acted as a broker for used Oracle licenses, allowing Oracle customers who no longer need their licenses to resell them to another firm that could put them to better use.

Oracle sued UsedSoft, arguing that UsedSoft was merely facilitating piracy of its software. The database giant noted that its license agreements specifically state that licenses are nontransferable. And it argued that the exhaustion doctrine only applied to physical copies, like CDs or DVDs, not to copies downloaded from a website.

On Wednesday, the European Court of Justice, the EU's highest court, decisively rejected Oracle's arguments.

"It makes no difference whether the copy of the computer program was made available by means of a download from the rightholder’s website or by means of a material medium such as a CD-ROM or DVD," the court ruled. "Even if the rightholder formally separates the customer’s right to use the copy of the program supplied from the operation of transferring the copy of the program to the customer on a material medium, the operation of downloading from that medium a copy of the computer program and that of concluding a license agreement remain inseparable from the point of view of the acquirer."

The court noted that if it accepted Oracle's argument, then "suppliers would merely have to call the contract a ‘license’ rather than a ‘sale’ in order to circumvent the rule of exhaustion and divest it of all scope."

"From an economic point of view, the sale of a computer program on CD-ROM or DVD and the sale of a program by downloading from the internet are similar," the court ruled. "The on-line transmission method is the functional equivalent of the supply of a material medium."

The court also rejected Oracle's contention that even if the original software license was transferable, the new owner was not entitled to use the free updates Oracle supplied with the software.

But the court did place some important limits on customers' rights to resell used software licenses. First, if a customer purchases a multiseat license, it is not allowed to split the license up into parts and sell them separately.

The court also held that after reselling the software, the previous owner must render his own copy of the software inoperable. Oracle had argued that this would be impossible to enforce in practice. But the court noted that this difficulty isn't unique to online software sales—the same problem arises when a customer resells a CD or DVD after using it to install software on his own computer.

European software purchasers now enjoy substantially stronger first-sale rights than their American counterparts. While the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has upheld the right to resell used CDs, the same court has been more deferential to software vendors, ruling that no-resale clauses in licensing agreements are enforceable. And since software companies invariably insert such clauses into their EULAs, the Ninth Circuit's ruling places used software sales under a legal cloud.
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post #2345 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:48 PM
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post #2346 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post


I pointed out the first map in the other thread. MS is doing everything they can to lose. This is why I think it is all their strategy. they would not be falling on this sword if it was forced on them.
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post #2347 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:52 PM
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I´m confused, yesterday I read that if the PS4 owners wanted to play online with their friends they had to have PS+.

So, my question is: in order to play online (non-friends) Do I have to have PS+?
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post #2348 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:55 PM
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At the end of the day, the map has no bearing on me personally. It is supported in my country, and I am not moving to any other countries any time soon.

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post #2349 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

I pointed out the first map in the other thread. MS is doing everything they can to lose. This is why I think it is all their strategy. they would not be falling on this sword if it was forced on them.

I just saw it and found the submarine to give me a chuckle biggrin.gif I'm still amazed at some of the die hard MS people who call it "progress" in terms of taking away so many options for gamers and in the same breath are excited about forced new options due to mandatory Kinect in every system.
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post #2350 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tlalotoani View Post

I´m confused, yesterday I read that if the PS4 owners wanted to play online with their friends they had to have PS+.

So, my question is: in order to play online (non-friends) Do I have to have PS+?

It isn't set in stone. Free to play games don't need plus to play online. Not sure if publishers can allow retail games to not require plus or not.

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post #2351 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tlalotoani View Post

I´m confused, yesterday I read that if the PS4 owners wanted to play online with their friends they had to have PS+.

So, my question is: in order to play online (non-friends) Do I have to have PS+?

Online play requires PS+.

Looks like certain games, ones like free to play DC Universe, will let you play them online for free. I'm sure there might be variations, but the big games like Battlefield and COD will always require Plus imo.

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post #2352 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

I just saw it and found the submarine to give me a chuckle biggrin.gif I'm still amazed at some of the die hard MS people who call it "progress" in terms of taking away so many options for gamers and in the same breath are excited about forced new options due to mandatory Kinect in every system.



Seriously though -- it's just fanboyism. If their positions were reversed, the same people defending the XB1 would be tearing Sony a new A-hole right now.
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post #2353 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

I just saw it and found the submarine to give me a chuckle biggrin.gif I'm still amazed at some of the die hard MS people who call it "progress" in terms of taking away so many options for gamers and in the same breath are excited about forced new options due to mandatory Kinect in every system.
I will take the selfish route and say that I don't see any of it as progress, but any negatives do not affect me. I don't lend games out, I am always online playing something, and I know that I can use the settings to turn off Kinect if I really want to. MS is getting killed right now because they decided to not go with the norm, and I can completely understand it. But I also like that they are willing to try some new things. I hope that we get away from the days when a new console just gives us prettier graphics and they actually look to change the way we game. Now before anyone calls me a fanboy, just know that I have my PS4 pre-ordered and ready to go. I just think that while MS seems like they are off the mark, real gamers should at least give them credit for trying to do more with their next console.

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post #2354 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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My guess is PSN will be providing servers or some sort of matchmaking service which game developers can make use of if they want, and this will of course be behind the paywall. For F2P games, they want to lower the cost of entry and encourage as many players as possible, so they won't be requiring PS+.

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post #2355 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:07 PM
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Sony makes consumer electronics for a living. I would expect them to do better at the hardware than a software company.

Sony has damn good engineers with decades of experience. I was really surprised to read about the decisions the engineers made for the ps4. They were betting on memory becoming cheaper and more dense. Which could enable them to potentially double the amount of ram they could put into the system without needing to redesign the motherboard. The thinking process and the betting on memory becoming cheaper sounded exactly like what the engineers at Sony used on the very first playstation system. There are some really cool articles and papers written on what went on at Sony more than 20 years ago when they were designing the first playstation. The engineers used the same kind of speculation and really hammered home the idea that memory would become cheaper and more dense and they should try to shove as much in as possible into the system even though it was expensive as heck. Sony has probably used many of the same engineers to design all their playstation systems. Microsoft's Xbox consoles always seemed to be these thrown together systems that didn't seem to have as much thought or experience put into them. The gigantic first Xbox and the horrific red ring of death problems in the 360 really seem to bare that out. Not to mention the fact that this new Xbox is 50% less powerful and has less memory available than the PS4. I will say this though, Microsoft's software on their xbox systems are a tad nicer than what Sony has. That is where their strengths are.
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post #2356 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:09 PM
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The problem is not that MS is not trying new things. In fact Kinect is incredible technology and deserves to get more recognition and use in other areas besides games. The world is also slowly moving towards digital distribution and MS is building for the future.

 

The problem is consoles have always meant something very different than PC. PC gamers are used to all the benefits of Steam etc. Consoles are used by many people as their main source of entertainment, esp in low income families, many countries outside the West etc. Cutting out used games, requiring not just online but broadband, removing the concept of ownership, is fundamentally changing what it means to own a games console.

 

Then they try to dress it up as a media device (which only works in US for TV), when in fact every other console, Roku, bluray player has the same streaming services (but free), and price it out of reach of the casual gaming market.

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post #2357 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:10 PM
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Here's a question:

Do you think Sony purposely leaked DRM patents and rumors to mislead MS into implementing DRM; or did they also plan to do so? If so did they drop the idea a while ago, or just recently with the backlash?

Publishers are lining up to disavow any influence in hardware DRM. EA even saying that it has NEVER had a discussion about hardware DRM with wither Sony or MS. Developers sure weren't kept in the loop going by their comments.

Did Sony pull a fast one? Get lucky with their normal plan all along as MS committed a unforced error?

I really can't wait to see how this all went down.

Here is the way I see it now. We have 3 hardware makers and only 1 has added hardware restrictive DRM. Maybe Sony discussed it in board room meeting but I don't think it was ever really apart of the design. Honestly, I think MS went for gold thinking everyone on XBL would just play along, you know, just for Halo. I don't think MS ever talked to or was approached by developers, this was there idea from the beginning. Why do I think this? They see the success Apple has had with the closed garden of iTunes and the App Store and they are attempting to do the same with Xbox. That's just not going to work for consoles, especially when your biggest competitor has none of the restrictions.
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post #2358 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:25 PM
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Here is the way I see it now. We have 3 hardware makers and only 1 has added hardware restrictive DRM. Maybe Sony discussed it in board room meeting but I don't think it was ever really apart of the design. Honestly, I think MS went for gold thinking everyone on XBL would just play along, you know, just for Halo. I don't think MS ever talked to or was approached by developers, this was there idea from the beginning. Why do I think this? They see the success Apple has had with the closed garden of iTunes and the App Store and they are attempting to do the same with Xbox. That's just not going to work for consoles, especially when your biggest competitor has none of the restrictions.

I agree that Sony did not push for it. They would be crazy not to take out patents in case MS was successful, that is just good business. Cover all your bases with patents before someone else gets them. Motorola was bought by Google for their patents, not for their value as a company.

Also, Sony makes hardware, they do not have a stake in OSs and massive amounts of non gaming related software. They do not have too much to gain and an awful lot to lose. This is the same reason that their console software lags behind MS. It is hard to be cutting edge when you are not in the business in as big a way as your competitors.
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post #2359 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:38 PM
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I agree that Sony did not push for it. They would be crazy not to take out patents in case MS was successful, that is just good business. Cover all your bases with patents before someone else gets them. Motorola was bought by Google for their patents, not for their value as a company.

Also, Sony makes hardware, they do not have a stake in OSs and massive amounts of non gaming related software. They do not have too much to gain and an awful lot to lose. This is the same reason that their console software lags behind MS. It is hard to be cutting edge when you are not in the business in as big a way as your competitors.
I'm just hoping that they've built their system in a way that they can continue to update the features as needed. The fact that they still don't have any form of cross game chat at this point in the PS3 lifecycle is just embarrassing. I'm fine with them not getting that side down as good as MS out the gate, but hopefully they can at least do something about it this time.

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post #2360 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:39 PM
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I'll probably be picking up battlefield and ghosts to start. I'll definitely give driveclub a shot, since its free. None of the other exclusives seem particularly interesting to me, especially at 30fps.


Honestly, I think the lack of a game to truly justify the purchase of the PS4 is pretty glaring. Battlefield and Ghosts will both be on The Bone. Madden, NBA 2K and Watch Dogs will all be on The Bone. Knack, DriveClub and Killzone aren't the kind of games that would justify my PS4 purchase. Killzone just isn't my cup of tea. I've tried the last two, and they didn't really do anything for me. DriveClub isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted Motorstorm 4 on PS4. Knack is a cute little game, but it's not going to justify my purchase. Now, I do understand that there are many people that aren't getting The Bone. For those peeps, Madden or Ghosts or Battlefield or NBA 2K could easily justify their PS4 purchase, because it's not like they could play that next-gen version on their other console. But for those of us buying both, it would be nice if you had one solid title that you could really bank on. That game for me was Second Son. Second Son could have EASILY justified my purchase of the PS4, but it had to slide in 2014.

Now, I guess I'm going to have to hope that The Witness is stunning. Because I can't really think of any other exclusive game that is going to make the launch. Unless Sony is hiding something for Gamescon or TGS. But if they are hiding something for those shows, and that game is still going to actually make launch in the US, that would be surprising, so I can't really count on any mystery game coming to save the launch for Sony.
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post #2361 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:40 PM
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I will take the selfish route and say that I don't see any of it as progress, but any negatives do not affect me. I don't lend games out, I am always online playing something, and I know that I can use the settings to turn off Kinect if I really want to. MS is getting killed right now because they decided to not go with the norm, and I can completely understand it. But I also like that they are willing to try some new things. I hope that we get away from the days when a new console just gives us prettier graphics and they actually look to change the way we game. Now before anyone calls me a fanboy, just know that I have my PS4 pre-ordered and ready to go. I just think that while MS seems like they are off the mark, real gamers should at least give them credit for trying to do more with their next console.

I would agree if they would drop the DRM crap. I'll give them credit that there are some interesting entertainment features in the XB1 but the DRM kills the whole package IMO. I don't like that trying new things means we have less freedom with our purchases. This is not changing the way we game for the better and I fail to see how some view it as such.

I wish the courts in the US would follow the EU and there ruling. It is stupid that just because we purchase and download some things online, it means we own them less then the physical version of the same product. I don't care that it is a license, if you want me to buy something then let me buy it, don't rent it to me at an outrageous price.

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post #2362 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:43 PM
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From that link
Quote:
A source tells me that the patent document leak was actually Sony testing the reaction to a DRM scheme that would require games to check in every so often. Did Microsoft really think that Sony was going to do this, which is why they created their platform in the manner that they did?

"Clever girl.... "
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post #2363 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:52 PM
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Honestly, I think the lack of a game to truly justify the purchase of the PS4 is pretty glaring. Battlefield and Ghosts will both be on The Bone. Madden, NBA 2K and Watch Dogs will all be on The Bone. Knack, DriveClub and Killzone aren't the kind of games that would justify my PS4 purchase. Killzone just isn't my cup of tea. I've tried the last two, and they didn't really do anything for me. DriveClub isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted Motorstorm 4 on PS4. Knack is a cute little game, but it's not going to justify my purchase. Now, I do understand that there are many people that aren't getting The Bone. For those peeps, Madden or Ghosts or Battlefield or NBA 2K could easily justify their PS4 purchase, because it's not like they could play that next-gen version on their other console. But for those of us buying both, it would be nice if you had one solid title that you could really bank on. That game for me was Second Son. Second Son could have EASILY justified my purchase of the PS4, but it had to slide in 2014.

Now, I guess I'm going to have to hope that The Witness is stunning. Because I can't really think of any other exclusive game that is going to make the launch. Unless Sony is hiding something for Gamescon or TGS. But if they are hiding something for those shows, and that game is still going to actually make launch in the US, that would be surprising, so I can't really count on any mystery game coming to save the launch for Sony.

That's kinda bummer you personally can't find a day one exclusive you personally would need to justify a PS4 purchase.

I know, for me, the whole package the console brings to the table not just day one, but down the line combined with it's amazing value is what justify's my PS4 purchase, but that's just me.

Killzone, DriveClub, Knack, and the stellar lineup of Multiplats are just icing on the cake ..... again, at least for me.

Hopefully you don't feel too let down come launch day, but like you said, you'll have both consoles, and only so many hands, brain matter, and eyeballs .... and therefore very time to dwell on justification, so you'll be set regardless!

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post #2364 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 01:57 PM
 
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Ars Technica wrote:
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PlayStation Plus accounts are now more portable, so you can sign in on any number of systems to take advantage of the online multiplayer functions. However, only one PS4 at a time can use a single paid account. People with two PS4s in a single household will have to double up on their subscriptions.

Hopefully this doesn't include sub accounts.
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post #2365 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:01 PM
 
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I'm just hoping that they've built their system in a way that they can continue to update the features as needed. The fact that they still don't have any form of cross game chat at this point in the PS3 lifecycle is just embarrassing. I'm fine with them not getting that side down as good as MS out the gate, but hopefully they can at least do something about it this time.

They did make good efforts, but you can only do so much when your OS footprint is a measly 32MB and you're trying to give back more to the Dev's. When the PS3 launched, you couldn't even access the XMB or anything on it in game!

They've reserved 2 cores of the CPU and a rumored 1GB for the system resources this time around. That should be more than enough to continue to update features running in the background.

Everything else they've been good about patching, updating ect. Especially things where they were separate from that tiny OS footprint, like BD playback.
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post #2366 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony confirmed recently that the perks of a primary's PS+ membership applies to all sub accounts on the same PS4.

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post #2367 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:02 PM
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Neither system has a decent exclusive at launch, all of the big games can be had on the PS3 and 360 (and many are also on the Wii U)

Being an early adopter is never wise, you always have droughts to contend with that usually last through the first year. Problem is, I have been waiting on new hardware since 2007, six years since I bought my PS3 and it really shows it's age, time for something with a bit more pep.

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post #2368 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:03 PM
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Honestly, I think the lack of a game to truly justify the purchase of the PS4 is pretty glaring. Battlefield and Ghosts will both be on The Bone. Madden, NBA 2K and Watch Dogs will all be on The Bone. Knack, DriveClub and Killzone aren't the kind of games that would justify my PS4 purchase. Killzone just isn't my cup of tea. I've tried the last two, and they didn't really do anything for me. DriveClub isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted Motorstorm 4 on PS4. Knack is a cute little game, but it's not going to justify my purchase. Now, I do understand that there are many people that aren't getting The Bone. For those peeps, Madden or Ghosts or Battlefield or NBA 2K could easily justify their PS4 purchase, because it's not like they could play that next-gen version on their other console. But for those of us buying both, it would be nice if you had one solid title that you could really bank on. That game for me was Second Son. Second Son could have EASILY justified my purchase of the PS4, but it had to slide in 2014.

Now, I guess I'm going to have to hope that The Witness is stunning. Because I can't really think of any other exclusive game that is going to make the launch. Unless Sony is hiding something for Gamescon or TGS. But if they are hiding something for those shows, and that game is still going to actually make launch in the US, that would be surprising, so I can't really count on any mystery game coming to save the launch for Sony.

I'm in the same boat with you. While I really want to tell Microsoft to piss off because of their restrictions. I do like a lot of what they are doing with the family sharing and kinect integration. And I just can't get excited about any of the ps4 exclusives. I'll end up with both eventually, so I'll just hold onto both preorders and make a completely irrational last second decision before they release (and maybe accidentally end up with both smile.gif ).

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post #2369 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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From that link


"Clever girl.... "

Like I said, I think the behind the scenes reporting on this one is going to be super interesting. Anyone remember the corporate espionage and high stakes maneuvering between MS and Sony back in the PS2/XB1... eer One, err THE FIRST XBOX days?

As for Exclusives, I'm happy with them. BF4 will be a 200+ hour sink, and KZ will be to as long as my friends pick it up. indy's will be launching in force for smaller time sinks, and it sounds like the time to ramp up releases from everyone will be much smaller (inFamous 3 months later?).

Got too many games still to get through this Gen, so I'm not really worried.
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post #2370 of 17113 Old 06-13-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Honestly, I think the lack of a game to truly justify the purchase of the PS4 is pretty glaring. Battlefield and Ghosts will both be on The Bone. Madden, NBA 2K and Watch Dogs will all be on The Bone. Knack, DriveClub and Killzone aren't the kind of games that would justify my PS4 purchase. Killzone just isn't my cup of tea. I've tried the last two, and they didn't really do anything for me. DriveClub isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted Motorstorm 4 on PS4. Knack is a cute little game, but it's not going to justify my purchase. Now, I do understand that there are many people that aren't getting The Bone. For those peeps, Madden or Ghosts or Battlefield or NBA 2K could easily justify their PS4 purchase, because it's not like they could play that next-gen version on their other console. But for those of us buying both, it would be nice if you had one solid title that you could really bank on. That game for me was Second Son. Second Son could have EASILY justified my purchase of the PS4, but it had to slide in 2014.

Now, I guess I'm going to have to hope that The Witness is stunning. Because I can't really think of any other exclusive game that is going to make the launch. Unless Sony is hiding something for Gamescon or TGS. But if they are hiding something for those shows, and that game is still going to actually make launch in the US, that would be surprising, so I can't really count on any mystery game coming to save the launch for Sony.

Exclusives have never really meant much to me, and if I'm being honest, the X1 exclusives are currently more appealing to me. But the the purchase of a PS4 is justified simply by being the best place to play those third party games. And the vita remote play doesn't hurt either.

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