PlayStation Vita TV - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
I invite anyone to proclaim me a cynic, and convince me of the error of my thinking, but does anyone else have concerns about the quality compromise of playing PS4 games streamed to the Vita TV?

When I read the initial reports I immediately began dreaming of adding this device to my bedroom flatpanel with the capability of playing PS4 over WiFi. I've got a good wifi signal upstairs (and my PS4 will be LAN connected), but I still can't see it working smoothly.

Will it realistically require a LAN between both the Vita TV and the PS4 connection to avoid lag and distortion?

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 11:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post

I invite anyone to proclaim me a cynic, and convince me of the error of my thinking, but does anyone else have concerns about the quality compromise of playing PS4 games streamed to the Vita TV?

When I read the initial reports I immediately began dreaming of adding this device to my bedroom flatpanel with the capability of playing PS4 over WiFi. I've got a good wifi signal upstairs (and my PS4 will be LAN connected), but I still can't see it working smoothly.

Will it realistically require a LAN between both the Vita TV and the PS4 connection to avoid lag and distortion?

That depends on how good your wifi is. A nice clear signal out in the suburbs will be fine, an apartment in the city with 15-20 APs all competing for bandwidth...maybe not. It's not unrealistic though, but I'd wire it if I could.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #33 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 11:51 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
Still up in the air until we get more info on remote play abilities and gakai streaming.

At the absolute worst I'd expect local streaming (local Wifi/LAN) to be 720P/30, which wouldn't be too bad for smaller screens in other rooms (IMO).

Still don't have a 70" in my bedroom smile.gif
TyrantII is offline  
post #34 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 11:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Still up in the air until we get more info on remote play abilities and gakai streaming.

At the absolute worst I'd expect local streaming (local Wifi/LAN) to be 720P/30, which wouldn't be too bad for smaller screens in other rooms (IMO).

Still don't have a 70" in my bedroom smile.gif

My fear is that's going to be the absolute best.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #35 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 01:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

That depends on how good your wifi is. A nice clear signal out in the suburbs will be fine, an apartment in the city with 15-20 APs all competing for bandwidth...maybe not. It's not unrealistic though, but I'd wire it if I could.

Excellent. I have that very "nice clear signal out in the burbs" to which you were referring. My bedroom television is a 37inch 1080i LCD so the lack of 1080P support won't be an issue.

I'm evolving from cynical to hopeful! biggrin.gif

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #36 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 02:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Couldn't Sony (via a firmware update) make the PS3 capable of remote playing PS4 games on a local network as well?

The PS3 has greater processing chops than the Vita, after all. cool.gif

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #37 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 03:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lordxar5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,504
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post

Couldn't Sony (via a firmware update) make the PS3 capable of remote playing PS4 games on a local network as well?The PS3 has greater processing chops than the Vita, after all. :cool:

Same reason we dont have proper PS3 chat....not enough RAM tongue.gif
lordxar5 is online now  
post #38 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 03:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Leo_Ames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 204
If the Vita TV can serve as a PS4 extender, I'm sure the PS3 can manage it.

The biggest issue probably is the touch pad. If that gets much use in PS4 games and if the PS3 can't communicate to a Dual Shock 4 via BlueTooth or a USB connection, it would be of rather limited utility.
Leo_Ames is offline  
post #39 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 03:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Same reason we dont have proper PS3 chat....not enough RAM tongue.gif

Of course...I so quickly forget how little RAM that box has to work with. It's a miracle that it has done so well with 256mb.

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #40 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 03:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post

Couldn't Sony (via a firmware update) make the PS3 capable of remote playing PS4 games on a local network as well?

The PS3 has greater processing chops than the Vita, after all. cool.gif

They absolutely could. Memory isn't an issue at all, it's nothing more than a video stream.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #41 of 95 Old 09-11-2013, 03:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post

Of course...I so quickly forget how little RAM that box has to work with. It's a miracle that it has done so well with 256mb.

It has two split pools of 256MB for a total of 512MB

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
post #42 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 05:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NoThru22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 9,256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Where does it say the Vita or Vita TV will be getting Gaikai capabilities?

Your mom is a classy lady!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 / 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NoThru22 is online now  
post #43 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 06:42 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

It has two split pools of 256MB for a total of 512MB

Right...but wouldn't only a single 256mb of that split be available for streaming?

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #44 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 06:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThru22 View Post

Where does it say the Vita or Vita TV will be getting Gaikai capabilities?

They didn't, but it's obvious that they will.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #45 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 06:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post

Right...but wouldn't only a single 256mb of that split would be available for streaming?

The stream wouldn't require more than a few MB, 256mb is more than enough.

The only difference between gaikai and streaming from Netflix is that it's also uploading your controller input to the server. What you're seeing on screen is just a video stream, no different than any other. PS3 can totally handle it.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #46 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 06:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThru22 View Post

Where does it say the Vita or Vita TV will be getting Gaikai capabilities?

"In the future, SCE will offer games developed for the PS3 to PS4 and PS3 by using a cloud-based game distribution service. Technically, the PS Vita TV can support such games."

Definitely a confirmation of the capability.

Source:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20130912/302940/

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #47 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 06:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
There you go. Also mentions DS4 support in there.

Keep in kind they're releasing this before the PS4 is even out in japan, so DS4 support obviously isn't necessary on day one.

But yay for standards!

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #48 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 07:17 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
It be idiotic to release it without Gaikai and DS4 support.

Sony quickly found out the hard way the problem of not future proofing and thinking about changing consumer tech and software; first with the PS3 OS and second with the PSP running into both the mobile app market and WiiU.

I't's why the PS4 offloads as much as possible from the core hardware and puts away room for growth of the OS, and why the PSV was design to ultimately be a PS4 remote companion and Indy machine.

Lessons learned, but predicting where several industries are headed is no easy task, especially when you want your products to be relevant 5, 6, 7 years out still.
TyrantII is offline  
post #49 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 07:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NoThru22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 9,256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Interesting wording: http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/PS+Vita/PS+Vita+TV/news.asp?c=53715
Quote:
According to Sony Computer Entertainment president Andrew House, the PS Vita TV microconsole will not be released outside Asia - at least, not anytime soon.

Speaking to Tech On, the Sony boss said that the plan is "to sell the PS Vita TV in China, South Korea, etc, but not in the US and European market at this point".

So feel free to pull your best sad faces, as it looks like we won't be able to play our PS Vita, PSP or original PlayStation games on our televisions. Boohoo.

However, like a knight in shining armour, Shuhei Yoshida, the President of Sony Computer Entertainment, took to Twitter as the news spread to reiterate the message to "we are just saying "PS Vita TV releasing first in Japan".

The implication of Yoshida's tweet is that launching PS Vita TV outside of Japan and other Asian markets could happen down the road.

So while we can't say as to whether the PS Vita TV will or will not be coming to the US and Europe, it seems that the possibility is there. Keep your hopes up for now.

PS Vita TV is set to launch first in Japan on November 14th.

Your mom is a classy lady!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 / 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

NoThru22 is online now  
post #50 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 08:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked: 1401
Unless it completely crashes and burns in Asia, it's inconceivable that it doesn't make it's way over here.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is online now  
post #51 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 08:48 AM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
http://www.edge-online.com/features/something-about-japan-why-ps4-isnt-a-japanese-console-and-vita-tv-could-be-a-stroke-of-genius/
Quote:
And all of this brings us back to PS Vita TV. In Japan more than anywhere, this seems like a stroke of genius on Sony’s part. Japan has all but abandoned home consoles in recent years; 3DS hardware and games consistently top the sales charts and children’s birthday lists, and surpassed the PS3’s lifetime sales in just over a year. And you can barely move on a rush-hour commuter train in Tokyo for casual gamers of all ages and walks of life poking away at Puzzle & Dragons on their smartphones.

Vita has been left behind, thanks partly to Sony’s loss of the Monster Hunter franchise to Nintendo and a lack of great games, but it is starting to pick up, and Sony probably knows that competing in the portable space in Japan is even more vital than the battle for the living room.

So PS Vita TV could be seen as a Trojan horse. It’s cheap – less than 10,000 Yen (£63.80 / $100) — which makes it more appealing than a 40,000 yen PS4; and it’s small enough to take up little space in a cramped Japanese apartment. Hardcore Vita gamers get a unit that lets them play their games on the go and then plug them straight in to the TV; the causals get a budget console that plays the PSone classics from their childhood, it doubles up as a box for videos services like Hulu and Niconico Douga and they may later be tempted to buy a Vita for taking their library outside. And Sony gets another revenue stream for its Vita content while expanding its user base to hopefully attract more publisher support. If it all really does go wrong for the handheld, at least Sony can salvage some of its outlay with this tasty alternative to an Apple TV.

Sony needs to get the Japanese PS4 launch just right if it is to stand any chance of succeeding where Nintendo has so far failed with Wii U. Frankly, it’s already a long shot. It’s bad news for those of us who will have to wait three more months to join the next generation, but it is a generation whose future is far from guaranteed in Japan. Better late than doomed.

Seems to me they're smartly trying to kill 2 birds with one stone. The rise of cheap portable game consoles, and the fall of traditional ones in Japan, and the rise of the casual gamer in other markets. Not entirely different, but also a not the same.

They're making a do everything box, but making it dirt cheap. Which is how to win over consumers, since entry is cheap and it's not a big risk if it doesn't work out. For both Sony and the consumer.
TyrantII is offline  
post #52 of 95 Old 09-12-2013, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
All the recent PS hardware (including the PS4 and more relevantly the Vita itself) has been region-free, so we could likely import one from Asia even if it doesn't get formally released in the West.

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #53 of 95 Old 09-13-2013, 08:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
The President of Sony Worldwide Studios Shuhei Yoshida tweeted earlier today:
“For people wondering about PS Vita TV outside Japan, we are just saying now ‘PS Vita TV releasing first in Japan’. Stay tuned.”

http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-on-ps-vita-tv-coming-west-stay-tuned-6414422

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
post #54 of 95 Old 09-13-2013, 11:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
If I was in charge of a major third party publisher who makes games for the PS Vita, I'd be begging Sony to release the PS Vita TV outside Asia immediately especially before Christmas.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #55 of 95 Old 09-14-2013, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Leo_Ames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 204
If I was a publisher that wanted to maximize my business and saw a lot of potential in this expanding that market for me, I sure wouldn't want it to be completely overshadowed by the launch of two new consoles.

I think proper timing is key for this. It's just going to be overlooked due to the PS4 and to a lesser extent the Xbox One in both media coverage and gamer's dollars were it to come out this Fall. Next spring when things are slow it can get a lot more attention. And if serving as a PS4 extender is a big deal where this is concerned like some believe, come a few months later is when people are going to start looking for things like this to augment their PS4 experience.
Leo_Ames is offline  
post #56 of 95 Old 09-14-2013, 07:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
I'm not too sure about that. I know that when the PS Vita got released in February, their wasn't many people running to get it. Heck, when I got it on the first day of release, the Sony store was almost empty and I believe I saw only 1 other person getting a PS Vita on that day. If it was released on November, I think their would have been a little bit more interest. Even with the new consoles, I'm not so sure it would be wise to release it in February rather than November. I say February since it's the date Sony used for the PS VIta in the US and the PS4 in Japan.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #57 of 95 Old 09-15-2013, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dragonyeuw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 50
I don't think anytime between now and March is a good time to launch it. Over the next 3 months, everyone's minds will be on ps4 and xbox one. 2-3 months into 2014, everyone's wallets will be in intensive care recovery. A good time to release it stateside may be around spring-summer 2014, as there's typically a gaming lull during that time so not as many products competing for your gaming dollars. Also, I'm not American but doesn't your tax return come through around that time? When people have a little extra income is probably the best time to release something like this.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

dragonyeuw is offline  
post #58 of 95 Old 09-15-2013, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Might as well release it in 2016.

My Youtube page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Flickr page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #59 of 95 Old 09-16-2013, 05:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dragonyeuw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Might as well release it in 2016.

That's a little extreme. The main point is, a device that has yet to exactly set the world on fire( meaning the Vita platform overall inclusive of this Vita TV), timing is crucial. The Vita TV is going to attract interest from current Vita owners, and Ps4 owners. But for those who are buying the latter at launch, unless they have tons of disposable income, I wouldn't bet on them adding a $100 device on top of a $400 Ps4, x amount of games, controllers, $50 PS plus membership if you're not already a subscriber and want to play online,xmas gifts, and whatnot anytime over the next 6 months.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

dragonyeuw is offline  
post #60 of 95 Old 09-16-2013, 09:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Drlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonyeuw View Post

I don't think anytime between now and March is a good time to launch it. .

I agree with you if the PS4 home network remote play capability is not ready when the Vita TV launches ("ready" meaning that it literally hasn't made it through the development process or it is buggy as heck).

Otherwise I think they should release it in the West alongside the PS4 launch (or as soon as possible) in order to maximally capitalize on the launch period excitement while STRONGLY marketing it as an PS4 Extender. I would safely wager that at least half, if not the majority, of homes that are buying a PS4 (or Xbone) already have more than one display and a home WiFi network already in place. The appeal in a family setting (or roommate setting) of extending next-gen console gaming to another room (even with a 720p resolution limitation) for $100 is something that Microsoft hasn't even whispered about.

Here is a sample sales pitch:
"For the same price as an Xbox One you can own a Playstation 4 and a Playstation Vita TV which will give you access to your PS4 gaming experience, Netflix and additional streaming video services and Playstation Vita gaming experience in a separate room in your home. With a Playstation Plus online membership you will receive free PS4 and PS Vita games on a monthly basis for as long as the membership is maintained."

cool.gif

PSN ID: Kranin
Drlink is online now  
Reply PlayStation Area

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off