Why Are Some Xbox 360 Users Switching to PS4? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Just curious, im in a conundrum as I dont know which way to go. Ive got both preordered but am still on the fence... tell me why you switched
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post #2 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 11:38 AM
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I currently play 360 and PS3, but mostly 360.
I'm not really switching, but I do have a PS4 on pre-order. I will eventually have both, but not at launch. For me, Playstation looks like they are getting a lot of stuff right this time around. One of the main reasons for me, is the Kinect being "mandatory". In my current setup, I switch between 2 different rooms. So I would not be able to use the Kinect in one of the rooms. These reasons are personal reasons, and don't apply to anyone else. You just have to look at your situation, and decide based off of that.
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post #3 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 12:12 PM
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i will eventually buy all 3 consoles, i was dead set on xbone before the announcement and even as recent as a month a go i was going to switch my pre order from ps4 to xbone but ultimately changed my mind and going with PS4 as my primary console and will wait until price drop on xbone
-ms attitude with drm/always on internet etc.
-kinect, i have no interest in it and nothing they have shown me is anything i will ever use
-specs, 1st game out that i will play (BF4) looks to be better on ps4
-sony looks like it is trying to have a ps2 like library and there looks to be lots of games
- positive reviews on the DS4
-price
-ms looks like the are scrambling to get the console ready for launch
-RRoD, had numerous consoles do it, cost me extra money, had numerous family members with the same issue, so it makes me a little wary to buy again


i will say the PS4 has impressed me, but me switching has less to do with sony impressing me and more to do with MS just dropping the ball big time. If you would have told me 6 months ago i wouldn't be buying next gen MS console at launch i would have laughed and said no way. So the best way i can explain it is MS had a 3 touchdown lead, but ending up throwing 4 interceptions to lose the game...
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post #4 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 01:01 PM
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^^^
Pretty much what Benji said word for word.
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post #5 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 03:08 PM
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-more powerful
-better price
-focus on games
-removable HDD
-PS3/PC accessory compatibility
-controller looks superior
-less motion/voice control nonsense
-PS plus blows XBL away
-Vita connectivity is a killer app
-indie game supremacy
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post #6 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 05:13 PM
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I'm definitely getting the PS4 at launch and maybe the Xbone. Leaning towards PS4 because:

More powerful
Lower price
More faith in 1st-party studios
vita remote play
PS+
Not forced to buy the camera.
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post #7 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 05:35 PM
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Pretty much everything said so far. Microsoft's attitude really turned me away initially but as more news came out I turned to the dark side. Cost, capability, Plus, attitude toward gamers all stacks up in Sony's favor. Hell I have nearly 20 free games on my PS3 since July from Plus! Pawn the xbone off on someone else and make some cash and enjoy Greatness!
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post #8 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 06:56 PM
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Microsoft really lost me with their strategy and then complete reversal. Seems like they have no idea what they wanted the Xbox to be, but it certainly wasn't a game console first. Sony had a much cleaner message and it was about games. The closer for me was the Kinect. Privacy is a concern and I don't want that thing in my house.
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post #9 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 07:19 PM
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Oh god how could I forget the reversals? That shot down any desire I had for an xbone in a nuclear fireball. Own your product for Pete's sake. Sony really took ownership of their product long before they unveiled it. Sending controllers off to devs plus getting hardware input over the years really says to me that Sony went the extra mile to make us gamers happy. Yes Microsoft reversed a lot but they didn't even bother to do any research beforehand and the only reason any of it got reversed was because of stock prices going south.

Yea I'm bent a bit. Was really excited to get one but they just dropped the ball all the way around. I don't want to see complete failure but I definitely don't want it to do too well. Just enough to keep Sony honest biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with most of you guys points, faith in MS is a big theme with my friends who are switching as well. I know ps4 also has more power but wonder, will we see a massive difference, especially with multiple platform games? First party games I'm sure will perform better if it is indeed much more potent. Do y'all think BF 4 will look better than xbox ones version?
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post #11 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonstiller View Post

I agree with most of you guys points, faith in MS is a big theme with my friends who are switching as well. I get that it also has more power but wonder, will we see a massive difference, especially with multiple platform games? First party games I'm sure will perform better if it is indeed much more potent. Do y'all think BF 4 will look better than xbox ones version?

Anecdotally BF3 looks better on the PS3. So as long as Dice\EA allows there to be a difference, the PS4 should look better. Hopefully they don't dumb it down.
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post #12 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 07:54 PM
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My reason is I'm a 360 only owner right now. So I'm going to keep the 360 and buy my first Playstation. I think I will get the best of both gens (PS4 being my prediction for the best of this gen), and both brands/exclusives (don't forget at least at first most of the XBone games will also be available on 360). Maybe later on I'll buy an XBone but no plans any time before mid/late 2014.

This gen won't be like the Xbox to 360 gen change. With the jump to HD gaming I couldn't really return to playing my Xbox games after playing the 360. This time around, I haven't really seen anything yet from either the PS4 or XBone that makes me feel my 360 is now unplayable on my nice 1080p plasma with surround sound.
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post #13 of 160 Old 10-16-2013, 07:59 PM
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While I didn't like MS's policies, the biggest thing to me was the specs. I'm excited to see what they can do with the PS4.
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post #14 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordxar5 View Post

Anecdotally BF3 looks better on the PS3. So as long as Dice\EA allows there to be a difference, the PS4 should look better. Hopefully they don't dumb it down.

The audio is also a lot more stout on the PS3 compared to the 360 also.
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post #15 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 07:19 AM
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Various reasons for me.

First and foremost, the Vita remote play. I have a 101" home theater, but I have to lay in bed with my son every night to get him to go to sleep. I spend more time on my Vita than in my home theater anymore. Not sure I'll use remote play over the internet, because I'm sure it's not going to be great.

Secondly, my $500 Fanatec wheel will probably work on the PS4 and probably not on the Xbox One. The Driveclub devs have been quoted that PS3 compatible wheels will work on PS4 (but not through official channels) and Fanatec is working on an Xbox One adapter, but I get the feeling that's going to fall through. I am not interested in the garbage wheels coming to Xbox One.

Microsoft's arrogance through the gate has really turned off a lot of gamers. For this console generation, I was exclusively a 360 player. I bought a PS3 to play Blu-rays and games, but it ended up collecting dust. I sold it to buy a Blu-ray player that was compatible with my non-HDMI receiver. I hated the PS3 controller with a passion. After E3, I was afraid the backlash would lead to diminishing Xbox support and it looks like I was right. I like Indie games a lot and MS at first was saying no Indie games. I like the Kinect and I can see why they want to bundle it with the system, but the $100 premium is shooting themselves in the foot. I LIKED the idea of installing discs and then never needing the disc, but that made people nuts and MS backpedaled on it anyway. I know that there are still a lot of Dudebros who will end up buying the Xbox One that have no idea of the drama that took place, but there are just as many people who won't because of it.
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post #16 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThru22 View Post

Microsoft's arrogance through the gate has really turned off a lot of gamers. For this console generation, I was exclusively a 360 player. I bought a PS3 to play Blu-rays and games, but it ended up collecting dust. I sold it to buy a Blu-ray player that was compatible with my non-HDMI receiver.

This almost exactly describes me as well although my PS3 didn't collect dust. I played a lot of PS3 first party games that I can't wait to play future ones on the PS4. Uncharted is what I always wanted out of an Indiana Jones game and is one of my favorite all time series (only played the first 2 though). The 360 was always my primary console, still is for another month. I sold my PS3 to get a standalone BD player that didn't sound like a vacuum cleaner half way through a movie.

My decision to go with the PS4 was first sparked by the better specs but then MS announced there pre-180 flip intentions which cemented me into the PS4 camp. Yes, MS has since reversed course but it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I also hate there continued push to have the Xbox control everything in your house. I hate the idea of running my cable/sat box through a game console. Google TV tried the same thing and has been pretty much a failure. I don't think consumers care about having one device controlling everything. I just get the impression that MS has focused more on being a general jack of all trades consumer electronics side of things vs. focusing on being a video game console. I also hate Kinect with a passion, it was the biggest waste of money I have ever spent (video game wise) and I hate that MS is forcing you to buy one even if you think it should be at the bottom of a trash can.

MS has also made it very clear that they wish to stamp out my main source of playing games, renting and used games. They may have dropped it for now but, we all know they really want this to happen one day. Maybe Sony does too and has probably talked about the same thing in backroom meetings but, they weren't the ones who actually built a product around those ideas. Remember, the Xbox One still has to receive a day one patch to turn off all the draconian DRM crap and it is just a huge turn off that the box was fundamentally designed around those "features".

Sony's focus seems to be squarely on video games, has the better specs and the better first party games (I hope The Last of Us is ported to the PS4). They seem to have corrected every mistake they made out of the gate with PS3. They've made the PS4 to be the ultimate video game console, MS made the Xbone biggrin.gif to be the ultimate home entertainment box that also plays video games.

Basically, I just like the path Sony is taking better then MS's path.
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post #17 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 09:20 AM
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Even though I might favor the PS4 vs the X1, more than anything I'm just aggravated that I even need to choose which platform to buy a game on, and need to buy four platforms just to play everything....and that's not even counting mobile!

Could you imagine if there were multiple HD video platforms, and each had exclusive titles? HD-DVD and Blu-ray existing side by side, and each only had 70% of the movies that come out. But disney also has their own platform, but it's a proprietary type of DVD that's SD only, and it's the ONLY place to watch Disney, Pixar, Marvel and Star Wars movies. And better yet, there's no such thing as a universal remote, they're all incompatible with each other.

Imagine if iPhones could only call other iPhones, and android could call only android? And lots of people had to go out and buy both, so they could communicate with their friends and family? Not being able to play with people on other platforms is by far the most aggravating part of all of this.

There's a certain part of me that wants the big three all to fail miserably, so the entire games industry is forced under existential threat to support a common platform like blu-ray. If you take a step back from it all, it really is an outrageous situation for gamers.
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post #18 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even though I might favor the PS4 vs the X1, more than anything I'm just aggravated that I even need to choose which platform to buy a game on, and need to buy four platforms just to play everything....and that's not even counting mobile!

Could you imagine if there were multiple HD video platforms, and each had exclusive titles? HD-DVD and Blu-ray existing side by side, and each only had 70% of the movies that come out. But disney also has their own platform, but it's a proprietary type of DVD that's SD only, and it's the ONLY place to watch Disney, Pixar, Marvel and Star Wars movies. And better yet, there's no such thing as a universal remote, they're all incompatible with each other.

Imagine if iPhones could only call other iPhones, and android could call only android? And lots of people had to go out and buy both, so they could communicate with their friends and family? Not being able to play with people on other platforms is by far the most aggravating part of all of this.

There's a certain part of me that wants the big three all to fail miserably, so the entire games industry is forced under existential threat to support a common platform like blu-ray. If you take a step back from it all, it really is an outrageous situation for gamers.

agreed, i will want to play metroid/zelda/mario, so eventually i will buy wiiU (probably after they drop the price again), i am sure down the line there will be xbone exclusives i will want to play (probably will buy after 1st price drop), but yeah having to buy 3 consoles suck..
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post #19 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 10:19 AM
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Personally, If I buy a console it won't be because I want to primarily game on it. I use my PC for gaming and find the Xbox One interesting for a living room entertainment system. Which is the task my PS3 has been serving for several years. The above remark about consumers not wanting control of everything in the living room , well here's somebody that does. I relish the idea of switching inputs with speech/hand movements along with multitasking while watching the game, for example. This paranoid backlash about the Kinect (AKA the "All Seeing Eye") always being on and watching everything you do is silly. Remove your tin foil hats for a second and imagine the possibilities it presents. Also if you don't want it on you can turn it off, but loose features in doing so.

Now if you are a hard core gamer, which seems to be the vocal majority, then yes the PS3 is superior spec wise. The use of GDDR5 memory by Sony will more than likely give the PS3 an advantage in the graphics department. But history has shown that developers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator, which in this case will be the Xbone and it's DDR3 and ESRAM.

It seems to me that MS is trying to innovate with the use of the cloud to off load some tasks from the console. Now if you don't have a good internet connection than this may not be as beneficial. In particular how MS implements the offloading of GPU tasks to the cloud and if it will present latency and timing issues, e.g. sound not synced. I have a feeling that this is the last iteration of consoles as we know it and the Xbone may be a game changer, or at least get the ball rolling on new ideas for how we consume our entertainment.

I'll more than likely wait to purchase until they are "out in the wild" for awhile and have been reviewed and tested. Maybe a black Friday purchase, who knows?
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post #20 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 11:04 AM
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Also, more of my point about the Indies: In a completely non-scientific study, I've noticed that nearly all of the games that interest me on Kickstarter, when giving a console option, choose the PS4 and Vita with no Xbox option at all. In fact, I've even seen more games shooting for the Wii U than the Xbox One.
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post #21 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 01:05 PM
 
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Personally, If I buy a console it won't be because I want to primarily game on it. I use my PC for gaming and find the Xbox One interesting for a living room entertainment system. Which is the task my PS3 has been serving for several years. The above remark about consumers not wanting control of everything in the living room , well here's somebody that does. I relish the idea of switching inputs with speech/hand movements along with multitasking while watching the game, for example. This paranoid backlash about the Kinect (AKA the "All Seeing Eye") always being on and watching everything you do is silly. Remove your tin foil hats for a second and imagine the possibilities it presents. Also if you don't want it on you can turn it off, but loose features in doing so.

Voice control and motion control is a lie. The tech is simply not there, and it's using consumers vague understanding of science fiction technologies to sell them a tech still in it's very infancy.

Now thats not saying it doesn't have it's place or that its good as research towards a better implementation. But IMHO kinect, or google voice, or Siri is really just a gimmick that over promises and under delivers. Especially when you realize the inefficiencies of a "dumb" voice command system. It's useful in very specific circumstances, but most of the time it's a less efficient input method than we already have.

We're not going to get to Trek levels of usefulness until we can pair these things up with AI that not only understand commands, but nuance and ambiguity. Until then, I'll take the quickness, efficiency, and simplicity of a controller, thank you.
Quote:
Now if you are a hard core gamer, which seems to be the vocal majority, then yes the PS3 is superior spec wise. The use of GDDR5 memory by Sony will more than likely give the PS3 an advantage in the graphics department. But history has shown that developers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator, which in this case will be the Xbone and it's DDR3 and ESRAM.

Historically the more powerful system was also the harder to program for. The only time this wasn't the case was with the XBox, and it was a launched late 3rd place underdog (so installation base really came into play). Sony already had years of forced knowledge in 3rd party developers as well with their convoluted emotion engine. If MS was ready to go head to head to the PS2, there would have been noticeable differences IMO much, much earlier.

This is the first time that the more powerful consoles has a not insignificant edge, and is also the more straight forward hardware. Then on top of that at their basic ports, these things can run like any other X86 PC, with scaleability.

Now if Sony can't sell these things, sure there's no incentive to put more work into PS4 titles. But if they sell a good number of them off the bat, and 3rd parties have to compete with the ND's and GG's of Sonys 1st party studios; it's in their interest to put out the best product possible. And this Gen it should be easier / more cost effective to do so.

DICE seems to be having an little PR battle with their parent EA about what to say about PS4/XBone. But from everything they've hinted they have the PS4 running better and will not be holding back. They just can't talk about it due to moneyhats. I do think some of that is just the state of the XBone dev environment ATM; but the better GPU, better BUS throughput, and simplicity of the PS4 design was all done to make developers lives easier and give better access to the hardware from the get go.

I can't see why it wouldn't count for something, unless developers pocket the gains and put out half assed products and risk consumer backlash.
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post #22 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

There's a certain part of me that wants the big three all to fail miserably, so the entire games industry is forced under existential threat to support a common platform like blu-ray. If you take a step back from it all, it really is an outrageous situation for gamers.

Last time that happened it led to a bubble and a crash. Nintendo rose from the ashes, but things were pretty dismal for a while.

While I hate the walled ecosystems, I think competition has been really, really good for gamers. Heck, we know that to be true when publishers are complaining about their budgets and ungrateful gamers at the same time that great games have never been more numerous and the competition for gaming dollar so fierce..

I think the industry is trending that way, but it's due to competition and needing to find new revenue streams. Opening things up allows them to also reach more people.

Thus we're getting SteamOS, a console like system but open on vanilla hardware. Or Gaikai across a bunch of different platforms and hardware. Even MS is planning to jump into the streaming game.
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post #23 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Last time that happened it led to a bubble and a crash. Nintendo rose from the ashes, but things were pretty dismal for a while.

While I hate the walled ecosystems, I think competition has been really, really good for gamers. Heck, we know that to be true when publishers are complaining about their budgets and ungrateful gamers at the same time that great games have never been more numerous and the competition for gaming dollar so fierce..

I think the industry is trending that way, but it's due to competition and needing to find new revenue streams. Opening things up allows them to also reach more people.

Thus we're getting SteamOS, a console like system but open on vanilla hardware. Or Gaikai across a bunch of different platforms and hardware. Even MS is planning to jump into the streaming game.

I was trying to figure out how to say something similar.
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post #24 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Last time that happened it led to a bubble and a crash. Nintendo rose from the ashes, but things were pretty dismal for a while.

While I hate the walled ecosystems, I think competition has been really, really good for gamers. Heck, we know that to be true when publishers are complaining about their budgets and ungrateful gamers at the same time that great games have never been more numerous and the competition for gaming dollar so fierce..

I think the industry is trending that way, but it's due to competition and needing to find new revenue streams. Opening things up allows them to also reach more people.

Thus we're getting SteamOS, a console like system but open on vanilla hardware. Or Gaikai across a bunch of different platforms and hardware. Even MS is planning to jump into the streaming game.

The crash was due more to a glut of terrible games than anything else. And even during the time when consoles were pretty much dead, PC gaming kept on trucking with absolutely zero support from Microsoft.

In a lot of ways I do see SteamOS as the great savior, because it's free, open, and builds upon a long established OS that's equally free and open. If they're successful in making a legit open console platform, it'll be the best thing that's happened to gaming since the Internet.

The main game I'm looking forward to this holiday is cod ghosts. I could buy it on X1, because I'll get the maps early, and I know lots of Xbox gamers. Or I could buy it on PS4 because it'll look marginally better than X1, and has the killer vita connectivity. I'd love to buy it PC most of all, because it'll blow away the graphics on the consoles...but no one I know plays cod on PC, and mouse gamers will own me.

What I really want is to just buy cod ghosts once, download and play it on whatever hardware I damn please, against anyone else who bought it. There's no real technical barrier to that, only market politics and artificial tech barriers standing in the way. Should I choose to buy it on a console, I'm just perpetuating the cycle, but on PC I'm simply going to enjoy it considerably less.

Maybe the day is coming when EA takes a stand and refuses to release battlefield for a platform unless they allow cross platform play/purchasing. It'd be a risky move, but they'd have a ton to gain.
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post #25 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 02:28 PM
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Voice control and motion control is a lie. The tech is simply not there, and it's using consumers vague understanding of science fiction technologies to sell them a tech still in it's very infancy.

This comment is ridiculous and the kind of FUD coming from both sides that gets me a bit irritated. Listen the tech has to start somewhere, taking the hard stance against anything different is what stagnates innovation.

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Now thats not saying it doesn't have it's place or that its good as research towards a better implementation. But IMHO kinect, or google voice, or Siri is really just a gimmick that over promises and under delivers. Especially when you realize the inefficiencies of a "dumb" voice command system. It's useful in very specific circumstances, but most of the time it's a less efficient input method than we already have.

We're not going to get to Trek levels of usefulness until we can pair these things up with AI that not only understand commands, but nuance and ambiguity. Until then, I'll take the quickness, efficiency, and simplicity of a controller, thank you.

I said nothing about voice/motion control replacing a controller, but see it as more of an enhancement. Just imagine being able to use your controller along with motion control to lean around a corner in an FPS. As far as the effectiveness of voice/motion control with the Kinect, do you have one in front of you to corroborate this is only a gimmick? Like I said earlier I'm waiting until I see some unbiased reviews of both systems before I start making judgements.

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...If MS was ready to go head to head to the PS2, there would have been noticeable differences IMO much, much earlier.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I don't think Microsoft was ready to go head to head with Sony during the original Xbox they just wanted to get in the console race. In my opinion the tact MS took with the early release of the Xbox 360, even though it still needed to be refined, was to saturate and grab as much market share as they could, including developers, before Sony could release the PS3.
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post #26 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 02:53 PM
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BD conceptually I agree with what your saying, the only problem is doing a multiplat purchase raises the cost. Were going through this with Pinball Arcade, its cross buy with PS3 and Vita currently but what happens when the PS4 launches? That company had to update the code and play test it which costs to do. I view cross buy to mean I get the next gen version free but they had to do work so they want money. Which is fine, not complaining about the porting effort at all just using this as an example.

Now, that said Apple and Android apps are pretty much buy and forget. Maybe their easy to update or maybe the creator forks it to generate another purchase but the point is the fart app from an iPhone 1 has most likely been updated to work on the 5S free of charge. I'm hopeful this type of attitude comes to gaming in some fashion which f2p will do, I think.
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post #27 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 03:19 PM
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BD conceptually I agree with what your saying, the only problem is doing a multiplat purchase raises the cost. Were going through this with Pinball Arcade, its cross buy with PS3 and Vita currently but what happens when the PS4 launches? That company had to update the code and play test it which costs to do. I view cross buy to mean I get the next gen version free but they had to do work so they want money. Which is fine, not complaining about the porting effort at all just using this as an example.

Now, that said Apple and Android apps are pretty much buy and forget. Maybe their easy to update or maybe the creator forks it to generate another purchase but the point is the fart app from an iPhone 1 has most likely been updated to work on the 5S free of charge. I'm hopeful this type of attitude comes to gaming in some fashion which f2p will do, I think.

 

It only raises the cost because the platform holders are middlemen that demand a cut for the privilege of being on their platform. I think next gen upgrades are a bit of a special example, but if I knew I could play a certain game on every platform I own, I'd be more inclined to buy that game....it's a huge selling point. For a multiplayer game like battlefield, it's a huge deal.

 

Look at what the AVS BF3 crew is going through right now...it's splintering because people are going towards different platforms. I bet the chances are pretty good that a few of you guys simply stop playing or buying battlefield going forward, since it's not the same once the crew is broken up. But if you didn't have to make that choice, everyone would totally be on board = lots of game and DLC sales. They can try to sell a tiny minority multiple copies, or sell a lot more people one copy. 

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post #28 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 03:22 PM
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Microsoft had me from 2007 through late 2009, Uncharted 2 began my shift away from MS as Sony was just putting out more quality games. It wasn't until Kinect became their focus that I shifted my multiplatform preference as well.

I was hoping that they would have gone back to their early 360 mentality with the Xbox One but the reveal and E3 killed all my interest in their brand. It will take a lot of good will to win me back. Paying for exclusives won't be enough either.

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post #29 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 03:50 PM
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I totally agree, I wish there was some easy way to just buy a game and play it on whatever hardware I own, I just think its a bit difficult to accomplish, at least with the current framework. I was actually hoping Android would fill that out but its not really doing it. Now Sony with its PS3, PS4, Vita and Gaikai looks to fit the bill a lot better. I am Jacks complete surprise! Old reference but still a goodie.

We BFielders are splintering a bit but its not too bad. There is a core that is staying together. We've kind of done what the common theme of this thread is and ditched Microsoft for one reason or other. To a degree because so many did switch over it caused others to as well. Some just weren't going to change no matter what.
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post #30 of 160 Old 10-17-2013, 09:25 PM
 
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One word: KINECT.

MS bet the farm on a worthless turd and lost convincingly.
Watching MS' actions have almost been like seeing a surreal parody on how to not do things right.
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