Will there be a PS4 shortage on launch day ? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Anthony1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Or will you be able to find one by going to several Targets or Wal-Marts or Best Buys relatively easily ?


I've heard conflicting reports about whether or not there will be a shortage. I've heard stories of Best Buys having potentially 250 systems set aside for first come first serve walk ins. I've also heard stories of some large retailers not getting that many units.


How do you guys think it's going to play out in your areas on Friday ? Sold out everywhere by 11 am ? Sold out everywhere by 1pm ? Sold out by 5pm ? Any chance there will be units left over at some stores even into the evening hours on Friday ? I'm guessing all PS4's will be totally sold out on Saturday, Sunday and Monday, with a secondary batch arriving on Tuesday.
Anthony1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 09:54 PM
 
TyrantII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 10,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 832
There might be regional shortages, But I'm thinking no.
TyrantII is offline  
post #3 of 38 Old 11-13-2013, 10:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
defdog99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I'll say yes. If Amazon had a launch day cap... then the demand is higher than supply.
defdog99 is offline  
post #4 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 05:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NuSoardGraphite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Is the sky blue?

You can assume that all of the PS4's that will hit the street friday are to fill pre-orders and that's it. maybe a few stores (Sears? Walmart?) didn't do preorders and will have some to sell, but they'll be swamped and sold out in minutes.

If you have a preorder and stores don't get enough to fill it, I'm sure you'll get yours in the next shipment or two. I'm sure Sony will be sending them out weekly, it's just a matter of how often your local store (or online retailer) will get new units.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
NuSoardGraphite is offline  
post #5 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 06:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Daekwan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 10,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 333
Anybody got the lottery numbers?

Xbox Live & PSN gamertag- Daekwan

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Daekwan is offline  
post #6 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Anthony1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Well, the thing is, I've heard some stories bumping around the internet that suggest that somebody might be able to walk into a Target at 6pm on Friday and be able to walk out with a brand new PS4. Which, if that is true, that's a huge change from the last big console launches (not counting Wii U). I know on the PS3 and original Wii launch, you wouldn't find either one anywhere (in larger cities), by at least 1pm, maybe earlier.

So, it would be pretty suprising if people can really casually walk in and buy one later in the day. If you read some of these stories from Best Buy employees claiming they have 280 of them sitting in their storage area, then it's concievable that walking in later in the day and getting one would actually be possible. Of course, you have to figure that even when the regular consumers are done buying, you still have the Ebay / Craigslist crowd that will probably snatch up any remaining supplies.

I just think it's going to be interesting to see if this launch is different than 2006 or 2005. All this talk of off the shelf parts, and 3 million units to be sold in November / December. It might be much easier to get one of these puppies than people think. I guess we'll know in a couple of days whether scarcity is really going to be an issue or not.
Anthony1 is offline  
post #7 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
defdog99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 30
BestBuy doesnt realize, they will be selling out of Blu-Ray 3D and mp3 players!

Shortage!
defdog99 is offline  
post #8 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 08:56 AM
Senior Member
 
boltsfan21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: California
Posts: 435
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
It is going to be interesting to see how many will be available tomorrow for those who didn't preorder. I did read a while back Sony is holding back inventory for the United States to help with shortages. From talking to stores locally, it seems like most of their supply is preorders and they will only have a few PS4 units for sale on the floor.
boltsfan21 is offline  
post #9 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 11:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
garciab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Princeton, TX - USA
Posts: 1,043
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I will be waiting in line at home...waiting for Newegg to put some up for sale. I feel kinda silly sitting on three games with no console. smile.gif

bg
garciab is offline  
post #10 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 11:23 AM
Member
 
The Outcast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Just Outside Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 64
I think there will be shortages for sure.

Here north of the border EB Games (a Gamestop company) was told to just keep taking preorders for quite a long time saying customers and they were told to tell customers that they would get one. Well low and behold they are about 70-80 units short of their preorder list. I do take into account some of the pre-orders came after the cut off point, but they don't seem to have the number to have all pre-orders fulfilled.

I asked the Asst. Manager who gets to spread the bad news, and he said he would. I feel bad for him as there are going to be some angry people who don't get their units.

People are going to be looking all over the place for a PS4 when they don't get their pre-orders fulfilled in this scenario. I would assume, and yes, it is my assumption, that a lot of EB games won't get all their orders filled, as they will direct some of the product to the BIGGER and HIGHER PROFILE stores. A tidbit as well, I was told by the Regional Manager that EB Games as a whole has been allocated 60% of the Canadian Launch Units,

It will be interesting indeed.

Outtie

I don't have alot of posts since I joined AVS Forums in 2004. I mainly read the information in threads as a source of research material. - quoted from The Outcast in April 2007.
The Outcast is offline  
post #11 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 12:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
Hatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 627
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Outcast View Post

I think there will be shortages for sure.

Here north of the border EB Games (a Gamestop company) was told to just keep taking preorders for quite a long time saying customers and they were told to tell customers that they would get one. Well low and behold they are about 70-80 units short of their preorder list. I do take into account some of the pre-orders came after the cut off point, but they don't seem to have the number to have all pre-orders fulfilled.

I asked the Asst. Manager who gets to spread the bad news, and he said he would. I feel bad for him as there are going to be some angry people who don't get their units.

People are going to be looking all over the place for a PS4 when they don't get their pre-orders fulfilled in this scenario. I would assume, and yes, it is my assumption, that a lot of EB games won't get all their orders filled, as they will direct some of the product to the BIGGER and HIGHER PROFILE stores. A tidbit as well, I was told by the Regional Manager that EB Games as a whole has been allocated 60% of the Canadian Launch Units,

It will be interesting indeed.

Outtie

I am glad I pre-ordered from FutureShop and have already received my call that it will be available for pick up at 8am tomorrow. I did try an EB Games first, but they said they had no more available.

FutureShop is saying they will have at least 25 unreserved PS4s available for each store, but I am guessing they will not last long.

PSN = Hatcher14
Hatcher is offline  
post #12 of 38 Old 11-14-2013, 12:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Scarpad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I'm in the same boat wasn't originally gonna get it at launch, got excited for it, picked up call of Duty and Battlefield and I'm still yet to get a console
Scarpad is offline  
post #13 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 03:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
moepoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birch Run, MI
Posts: 892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Just walked into my local Meijers (kinda like a Walmart, local to parts of the Midwest) and they had 8 sitting there. I think people who bought a couple to flip are gonna be in a little bind.

Join the AVS Folding @ Home team!! Team #55280

PSN ID= moepoker
XBL ID= moepoker
moepoker is online now  
post #14 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 04:36 AM
Senior Member
 
HDSapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by moepoker View Post

Just walked into my local Meijers (kinda like a Walmart, local to parts of the Midwest) and they had 8 sitting there. I think people who bought a couple to flip are gonna be in a little bind.

I hope so. That would serve them right.
HDSapper is offline  
post #15 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 06:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rr6966's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I think a lot of people are pre-ordering the PS4 for this latest launch, so there may be extra's to be found at the local retail stores.
rr6966 is offline  
post #16 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 06:59 AM
Member
 
IowaWigman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One of my local Targets received 60 PS4s and they said there were only 8 pre-orders. When I went this morning there was a line of about 20 people, so I'd say that's a good sign that there might not be that many shortages. For the PS3 - I'm pretty sure you couldn't just walk into a store on release day and get one could you?

PSN: IowaWigman
IowaWigman is offline  
post #17 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 08:23 AM
Member
 
rfbrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I worked at Circuit City during the Xbox 360 & PS3 launch, Xbox sold out in minutes. We had at least twice as many PS3's and had them for about a week before they sold out. People just assumed we sold out.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rfbrang is offline  
post #18 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 08:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Durbo20vT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaWigman View Post

One of my local Targets received 60 PS4s and they said there were only 8 pre-orders. When I went this morning there was a line of about 20 people, so I'd say that's a good sign that there might not be that many shortages. For the PS3 - I'm pretty sure you couldn't just walk into a store on release day and get one could you?

Definitely not. Getting a PS3 on launch required a lot of homework in advance, or sleeping out in the cold for days. After that, people knew when shipments were arriving to the retailer weekly, so that re-stock would sell before it even hit the floor. By me, it was pretty much Late Dec-Jan before you can walk in and find a PS3 sitting on the shelf.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Ps3 500gb & Ps3 250gb
Xbox 360 Elite
Durbo20vT is offline  
post #19 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 08:38 AM
Member
 
niembre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Went to Toys R Us this morning 10 minutes before it opened and there were about 10 people wating outside. I walked up and an employee asked me if I was there for a PS4. I said yes and she handed me a voucher and said that it was the last one they had left. Wasn't planning on buying a ps4, might try to sell it and see what I can get for it. Target, BestBuy, and Walmart were all sold out of ps4's.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
niembre is offline  
post #20 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 08:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Crash44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Seems like Sony has quite a few PS4's ready for the NA launch. I'm reposting this here so it can help someone who's still shopping without getting buried in the PS4 thread.

Newegg is offering bundles "Available at 1pm PT". They are high priced because they throw in the kitchen sink, but if you're starting or updating a setup it's probably worth it.

Bundle 1

PlayStation 4 + Sony PS4 DualShock Wireless Controller
Turtle Beach Call of Duty: Ghosts Ear Force
Sony PS4 Camera
Call of Duty: Ghosts
Killzone: Shadow Fall
Battlefield 4
SONY PlayStation Plus 1 Year Membership

Bundle 2

PlayStation 4+Sony PS4 DualShock Wireless Controller
Turtle Beach Ear Force
Sony PS4 Camera
PlayStation Vita with The Walking Dead
SONY PlayStation Plus 1 Year Membership

PSN: CrashLanding (please ID requests as AVS)
Crash44 is offline  
post #21 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 09:18 AM
Senior Member
 
sharp360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW chicago
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I went out to pick up an extra controller this morning at target. They were sold out of Ps4s, dual shocks, and only had 5 games left. GameStop had the controller but no systems save the ones allocated for per order customers.

My Theater build

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

xbox360 gamertag: MASTERpTWINKIE
PS3: zaczimer
sharp360 is offline  
post #22 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 09:26 AM
Senior Member
 
mcclayton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I signed up to get a notice from newegg when the ps4 was available to buy, and I got nothing.

I'm kind of cheap/I don't want to pay $25 in tax. (Amazon charges for - CT)
garciab and SubaruB4 like this.
mcclayton is offline  
post #23 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 09:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
tampabuc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 665
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Walked into a Target this morning, about 40 minutes after they opened, and they had 7 consoles left. Got lucky.
tampabuc is offline  
post #24 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 11:22 AM
Member
 
The Outcast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Just Outside Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by niembre View Post

Went to Toys R Us this morning 10 minutes before it opened and there were about 10 people wating outside. I walked up and an employee asked me if I was there for a PS4. I said yes and she handed me a voucher and said that it was the last one they had left. Wasn't planning on buying a ps4, might try to sell it and see what I can get for it. Target, BestBuy, and Walmart were all sold out of ps4's.

You're the kind of person that frustrates me (I use this term to be nice). The typical "buy one and see what I can get for it". If you didn't want one, and don't plan to play it, leave it for someone who does. But no, you buy it with the purpose of selling it.

For me I got one last night before launch at a store that I frequent quite often. They had a small allocation (20-30 units) and they were selling them this AM in a draw, to keep it fair to people. They advertised it on their door this week to let people know. I wasn't planning on buying one yet, but I just got the itch (hey, I love new tech). When I went in and saw they were doing a draw, I was like COOL, good for them as I support the non-big-box stores run by people who live in the community. The manager said they had some put aside for staff, friends, and family, and if I wanted one I could have buy one. I looked at the unopen box and fate was tempting me. Alas when I asked when I should come back the next day (launch day) to pick it up, they said I could by it now (that night). SO alas I did.

Now, the question for me is what games do I really want to play on it? I am not sure yet. I hvae my Xbox One coming next week and there are games will play on it for sure, including some thrid party titles (e.g. COD) that my friends want to play online with me. If I don't keep the unit, I will sell it to a friend for exactly what I paid. I didn't buy it with the intention of selling it for profit, or as so many people say "see what I can get for it". Heck, if someone other than a friend is searching for one in my area I will for sure sell it for what I paid, as it may make some family or kid happy they got one. That in itsefl would be cool too.

Anyhow, sorry for the rant......just hated seeing the post I quoted.

Outtie
benjamin-benjami likes this.

I don't have alot of posts since I joined AVS Forums in 2004. I mainly read the information in threads as a source of research material. - quoted from The Outcast in April 2007.
The Outcast is offline  
post #25 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Anthony1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Last night I was on neogaf, and there was a thread about Amazon having them in stock. I clicked on the link and it showed them being available. Apparently, they were available for several hours. I wonder if it was a glitch or something, or if there was a bunch of ebayers that cancelled their preorders because they knew they weren't going to get the 900 bucks they thought they would.
Anthony1 is offline  
post #26 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 12:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
teckademic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: san jose, ca
Posts: 1,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 45
I tried ordering one last night from amazon and it said they were sold out when i tried adding it to the cart
teckademic is online now  
post #27 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
garciab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Princeton, TX - USA
Posts: 1,043
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcclayton View Post

I signed up to get a notice from newegg when the ps4 was available to buy, and I got nothing.

I'm kind of cheap/I don't want to pay $25 in tax. (Amazon charges for - CT)

Not a cheapie, just hard to justify right now. Plus I plan on paying with Bill Me Later, cuz I can! I waited till go time at Newegg, only to be greeted with a big package required for purchase. Needless to say, I passed. Had a tough talk with the Vita this morning...it was difficult fighting back the tears. smile.gif

bg
garciab is offline  
post #28 of 38 Old 11-15-2013, 12:43 PM
Member
 
niembre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've never sold a console (I still have my Atari 5200), I was just not really planning on getting the PS4 right away. I knew I was going to get one, but probably after a couple of months, so I figure, why not list it on Craigslist and see what I can get. It would make me happy to make a little profit, and it would make the person who buys it happy. So far, no takers. If I do not sell it, no problem...I will just keep it and open it on Christmas. I am in no hurry to tear up the box and get it out, I can wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Outcast View Post

You're the kind of person that frustrates me (I use this term to be nice). The typical "buy one and see what I can get for it". If you didn't want one, and don't plan to play it, leave it for someone who does. But no, you buy it with the purpose of selling it.

For me I got one last night before launch at a store that I frequent quite often. They had a small allocation (20-30 units) and they were selling them this AM in a draw, to keep it fair to people. They advertised it on their door this week to let people know. I wasn't planning on buying one yet, but I just got the itch (hey, I love new tech). When I went in and saw they were doing a draw, I was like COOL, good for them as I support the non-big-box stores run by people who live in the community. The manager said they had some put aside for staff, friends, and family, and if I wanted one I could have buy one. I looked at the unopen box and fate was tempting me. Alas when I asked when I should come back the next day (launch day) to pick it up, they said I could by it now (that night). SO alas I did.

Now, the question for me is what games do I really want to play on it? I am not sure yet. I hvae my Xbox One coming next week and there are games will play on it for sure, including some thrid party titles (e.g. COD) that my friends want to play online with me. If I don't keep the unit, I will sell it to a friend for exactly what I paid. I didn't buy it with the intention of selling it for profit, or as so many people say "see what I can get for it". Heck, if someone other than a friend is searching for one in my area I will for sure sell it for what I paid, as it may make some family or kid happy they got one. That in itsefl would be cool too.

Anyhow, sorry for the rant......just hated seeing the post I quoted.

Outtie


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
niembre is offline  
post #29 of 38 Old 11-16-2013, 02:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
teckademic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: san jose, ca
Posts: 1,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 45
http://www.nowinstock.net/videogaming/consoles/ps4/

Updates by the minute and can setup your phone for alerts. Currently available at Target as of now for console only
teckademic is online now  
post #30 of 38 Old 11-16-2013, 02:36 AM
Member
 
TorTorden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 61
I think there might be launch day shortages yes, why it's Sony and AMD,
Both are notorious for having launch supply issues, it is good free publicity to create this extra bit of hype around a new product.
But I doubt this supply issue would be long, there is no real reason like with the ps3 and the production problems related to the BD drive and everything is practically off the shelf goods now.

If there are any availability issues they would also be short lived, I'm quite certain if anyone wants a ps4 for Christmas will be able to get one, world wide.

Personally I don't mind waiting. I know I'l probably will get one, but at the moment I'm currently leaning more to putting the money towards an Oppo :P
TorTorden is offline  
Reply PlayStation Area

Tags
Playstation 4 Console

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off