PS4 Video Output Talk - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 113 Old 11-16-2013, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 59
I thought I would start a thread about the PS4s video settings. Besides resolution settings there's
RGB Range and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range. PS3 had a super white setting that's missing from the PS4.
I think the PS3 was ahead of its time with x.v.Color and Deep Color support. I know these aren't widely
used (if ever) but I wonder if the PS4 supports it. I own Sonys new W900a which has the Triloumious tech. I have watched some of Sonys mastered in 4K Blu-Rays (on the PS3) which included x.v.Color and they look great.

Now on my PS4 I have RGB set to full and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range set to full, I believe these are the best setting for my TV. I own NFS Rivals and KIllzone and have no complaints on the PQ, both games look incredible. The reason I ask is, when playing PS3 my TV would detect a 12bit signal, but it doesn't show up on PS4. Why would 12bit show up on my display on the PS3 but not the PS4?

I'm not sure how legit or up to date this site is but it goes into extreme detail about the PS4's Video and Audio output capability. I thought it was interesting.
http://www.edepot.com/playstation4.html

PS4 Color Depth
"The number of bits used on the PS4 to display a single pixel of color is 48 bits, with 16 bits used for each of the Red, Green, and Blue primary colors. This is the same maximum color depth in the PS3 and is called Full Deep Color. If you have a HDMI RGB connection, Full Deep Color expands the number of bits per pixel to 48 bits total (16-bits per primary color). The increase in bits provide the PS4 with the ability to use more colors in a given color space standard, allowing gradual transitions between two similar colors, lessening banding effects.
4K TVs have display controllers that can manipulate the sending of brightness voltage to the LEDs in incremental values. For 16 bit controllers you can send 65536 distinct voltages (valued from 0 to 65535) to the LED, with 65535 representing the maximum voltage possible, and 0 representing the lowest possible. To support Full Deep Color, 16 bit controllers would need to be implemented so that they support incremental voltage values to the LEDs ranging from 0-65535 for 48 bit per pixel displays. Note that you also need a PS4 game or XMB that outputs 48 bits per pixel (PS3 games usually is 24 bits per pixel) in digital 16 bit per primary RGB via HDMI. So when you are playing golf, the course will look amazingly lifelike. If you are playing back HVD movies, Full Deep Color in the x.v.Color space is supported, and you can either output this directly to the HDMI, or convert to 16 bit per primary color RGB for your QF-HDMI display."

To all the tech heads does this look legit?
helvetica bold is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 113 Old 11-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
jbdawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Hmm well for the non techie folks like myself anybody care to chime in, could I use "full" on a Samsung UN55D6000? I believe I used it on my PS3 but honestly I'm having a tough time remembering.

Thanks for the thread helvetica
jbdawson is offline  
post #3 of 113 Old 11-20-2013, 05:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post

I thought I would start a thread about the PS4s video settings. Besides resolution settings there's
RGB Range and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range. PS3 had a super white setting that's missing from the PS4.
I think the PS3 was ahead of its time with x.v.Color and Deep Color support. I know these aren't widely
used (if ever) but I wonder if the PS4 supports it. I own Sonys new W900a which has the Triloumious tech. I have watched some of Sonys mastered in 4K Blu-Rays (on the PS3) which included x.v.Color and they look great.

Now on my PS4 I have RGB set to full and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Range set to full, I believe these are the best setting for my TV. I own NFS Rivals and KIllzone and have no complaints on the PQ, both games look incredible. The reason I ask is, when playing PS3 my TV would detect a 12bit signal, but it doesn't show up on PS4. Why would 12bit show up on my display on the PS3 but not the PS4?

I'm not sure how legit or up to date this site is but it goes into extreme detail about the PS4's Video and Audio output capability. I thought it was interesting.
http://www.edepot.com/playstation4.html

PS4 Color Depth
"The number of bits used on the PS4 to display a single pixel of color is 48 bits, with 16 bits used for each of the Red, Green, and Blue primary colors. This is the same maximum color depth in the PS3 and is called Full Deep Color. If you have a HDMI RGB connection, Full Deep Color expands the number of bits per pixel to 48 bits total (16-bits per primary color). The increase in bits provide the PS4 with the ability to use more colors in a given color space standard, allowing gradual transitions between two similar colors, lessening banding effects.
4K TVs have display controllers that can manipulate the sending of brightness voltage to the LEDs in incremental values. For 16 bit controllers you can send 65536 distinct voltages (valued from 0 to 65535) to the LED, with 65535 representing the maximum voltage possible, and 0 representing the lowest possible. To support Full Deep Color, 16 bit controllers would need to be implemented so that they support incremental voltage values to the LEDs ranging from 0-65535 for 48 bit per pixel displays. Note that you also need a PS4 game or XMB that outputs 48 bits per pixel (PS3 games usually is 24 bits per pixel) in digital 16 bit per primary RGB via HDMI. So when you are playing golf, the course will look amazingly lifelike. If you are playing back HVD movies, Full Deep Color in the x.v.Color space is supported, and you can either output this directly to the HDMI, or convert to 16 bit per primary color RGB for your QF-HDMI display."

To all the tech heads does this look legit?

 

Ignore that site, it gets at least one basic thing wrong. Not worth going into detail, just ignore it please.

 

Games are rendered in 32-bit. Outputting in 48bit is pointless, it's no different than converting 16bit audio to 24bit. You cant get something from nothing.

 

As far as RGB and YCbCr range - use limited. If you set it to "Automatic", it defaults to limited, even if your TV supports full. The Xbox One's calibration also recommends RGB limited.  16-235 is now basically the official standard for games. RGB full will probably look identical, but you're technically out of spec.   


Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #4 of 113 Old 11-22-2013, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Well the Xbox One has an option to select bit depth, 24 30 and 36. This we can expect an update for this on the PS4. It really bugs me PS4 doesnt support deep color out of the box.
helvetica bold is offline  
post #5 of 113 Old 11-22-2013, 06:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
teckademic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: san jose, ca
Posts: 1,813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 44
When I would select full on the ps3, games would look great, but it would clip the black level from blu rays so limited was needed and just left it as automatic. If you're going to use the ps4 for blu ray, i would check how it looks with any change you make.
teckademic is offline  
post #6 of 113 Old 11-22-2013, 09:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
flinchn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 839
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post

Well the Xbox One has an option to select bit depth, 24 30 and 36. This we can expect an update for this on the PS4. It really bugs me PS4 doesnt support deep color out of the box.

If you read the X1 thread you will see some complaints how their Cable/Sat feed is either washed out or crushing blacks as they try to get the same "picture" as their games.
flinchn is offline  
post #7 of 113 Old 11-23-2013, 10:59 PM
Newbie
 
zer0future's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I have been wondering about which RGB/YCbCr range would be better for my TV as well. I have a Samsung UN55D8000. The ps4 is connected to a receiver (Yamaha RX-V373) which is connected to my TV. While using the limited range looks a bit washed out in games and video streaming like the CrunchyRoll app. While using the full range colors are more vibrant but I think the black levels border on being crushed (was playing Killzone and Contrast). For instance in Killzone the third chapter takes place on a spaceship and there are dark corridors with minimal lighting. Using full range it was on the borderline of being difficult to see because it was too dark, likewise with Contrast. I'm assuming this means I shouldn't be using the full range however using full range gets streaming video (using CrunchyRoll app) to look like it does on my computer (I don't know if this comparison is idiotic but I used to watch CrunchyRoll all the time before I started using it on ps3 and ps4 so that's the reason I am making it).

 

An interesting tidbit I noticed while playing around with the settings on the ps4 and my TV is that when playing a Bluray disc the TV locks the HDMI black level to normal (otherwise you have the option of Low or Normal, Samsung documentation doesn't specify which is which but I am assuming Normal is limited and low would be equal to full range). I have manually set the RGB/YCbCr range to limited/full to see what effect it would have on Bluray playback the TV will lock the HDMI black level setting it has to normal and the picture looks identical no matter what setting is enabled on the ps4. I found that a little odd, but seeing as a it doesn't matter which setting is used on the ps4 and the TV locks the setting to normal I have been focusing more on streaming video via CrunchyRoll (haven't used Netflix yet though I should test that out) and actual gameplay. 

 

So basically if anyone with better knowledge can chime and make a suggestion that would be great. If someone with the same TV knows what settings work best than even better. Thanks for any replies.

zer0future is offline  
post #8 of 113 Old 11-24-2013, 04:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
It locks to limited because blurays are encoded in ycbcr, and ycbcr is always supposed to be the limited range (16-235). RGB full (0-255) exists only for compatibility with PCs, but if you set everything to automatic, the PS4 will default RGB to limited range. So that's what you should use...if the picture isn't vibrant enough, fix that with other settings.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #9 of 113 Old 11-24-2013, 07:56 AM
Newbie
 
zer0future's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you for the reply. Guess I have some tweaking to do.
zer0future is offline  
post #10 of 113 Old 11-24-2013, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
frankthetoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Is anyone rise having video flicker (what I guess is HDMI handshake issues)?

I cannot fix this problem. I've tweaked settings in my PS4, TV, and AVR and switched it HDMI cables. Nothing seems to work.

Pushing the PS4 through an Onkyo 809 to my Pannny S60.

------------------------------------
PSN: frankthetoad
frankthetoad is offline  
post #11 of 113 Old 11-27-2013, 03:05 AM
Senior Member
 
gomess023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
anyone with a panasonic st50? What are ya using guys. I have mine on rgb full
gomess023 is offline  
post #12 of 113 Old 12-05-2013, 11:42 PM
Newbie
 
SeeNoWeevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I don't understand what's going on with the PS4's video output. My screen (Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000) doesn't have a specific setting for Full/Limited but test images show all levels of black when receiving PC levels so I'm going to assume it does support Full. Oddly though, if I set the PS4 to full (auto always pre-selects Limited) and then calibrate black level with the AVS HD calibration dvd, blacks are terribly crushed in game.

 

I think video playback is always output as video levels regardless of the setting so setting Full HD on the PS4 will always result in either games or video being calibrated wrong. I had a black level calibration image up in the PS4's web browser, calibrated correctly to that, switched to a game and then when I went back to the browser the blacks were all crushed like the level had switched!

SeeNoWeevil is offline  
post #13 of 113 Old 12-06-2013, 11:56 PM
Member
 
Schabeugen04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
An easy way to tell if you should be running your PS4 in RGB limited or Full is to let it auto select then go in to the options and select either full or limited, if the screen flickers when you choose one of them then it needs to be set using the other option. So if you run auto and it flickers when you select RGB full then you need to run RGB limited, if you selct limited after you put it in auto and the screen flickers then you need to be running in RGB full. I have tested this and it seems to be a good way of reading your Tv's color space and when I switched my XBR5 into RGB full through its video options iirc the PS4 correctly detected it when i used the auto mode. Also the RGB full mode mainly is going to apply to PC monitors the majority of TV's expect RGB limited which is video level smile.gif cheers
Schabeugen04 is offline  
post #14 of 113 Old 12-30-2013, 05:45 PM
Senior Member
 
AncientAlien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schabeugen04 View Post

An easy way to tell if you should be running your PS4 in RGB limited or Full is to let it auto select then go in to the options and select either full or limited, if the screen flickers when you choose one of them then it needs to be set using the other option. So if you run auto and it flickers when you select RGB full then you need to run RGB limited, if you selct limited after you put it in auto and the screen flickers then you need to be running in RGB full. I have tested this and it seems to be a good way of reading your Tv's color space and when I switched my XBR5 into RGB full through its video options iirc the PS4 correctly detected it when i used the auto mode. Also the RGB full mode mainly is going to apply to PC monitors the majority of TV's expect RGB limited which is video level smile.gif cheers

I don't think that's true. My tv flickers on both ps3 and ps4 when I switch between full and limited. Keep your ps3/ps4 on limited if you use it for netflix and blu rays but if you're going to use it just for games and your tv supports rgb full, then go ahead. Make sure you keep hdmi black level on normal for full though. FULL/lIMITED will look IDENTICAL if your TV supports both.
AncientAlien is offline  
post #15 of 113 Old 01-31-2014, 04:09 AM
Newbie
 
UbiquityD675's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a Samsung pn51f5300 and when the ps3/ps4 is on limited(auto ps4) the blacks are grey and look terrible. When turning the ps4 on the black background is grey and has a heavy film grain effect going on, when I looked this up guess it's called dithering. When either the ps3/ps4 is set to full and tv's hdmi black level set to normal the blacks go to being deep with no dithering and color looks restored or better. Is this a good way to run it on this tv? I can't stand them both on limited/normal.
UbiquityD675 is offline  
post #16 of 113 Old 01-31-2014, 05:57 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by UbiquityD675 View Post

I have a Samsung pn51f5300 and when the ps3/ps4 is on limited(auto ps4) the blacks are grey and look terrible. When turning the ps4 on the black background is grey and has a heavy film grain effect going on, when I looked this up guess it's called dithering. When either the ps3/ps4 is set to full and tv's hdmi black level set to normal the blacks go to being deep with no dithering and color looks restored or better. Is this a good way to run it on this tv? I can't stand them both on limited/normal.

If blacks don't look black when the PS4 is set to limited, either your TV doesn't know what "normal" is, or your brightness control is set too high.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #17 of 113 Old 01-31-2014, 08:36 AM
Senior Member
 
AncientAlien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by UbiquityD675 View Post

I have a Samsung pn51f5300 and when the ps3/ps4 is on limited(auto ps4) the blacks are grey and look terrible. When turning the ps4 on the black background is grey and has a heavy film grain effect going on, when I looked this up guess it's called dithering. When either the ps3/ps4 is set to full and tv's hdmi black level set to normal the blacks go to being deep with no dithering and color looks restored or better. Is this a good way to run it on this tv? I can't stand them both on limited/normal.

If your TV supports RGB Full then putting your PS4 on Full with TV's HDMI BLACK LEVEL on Normal will look identical to limited/low. There's no difference between the two. If you have one of those reversed,(HDMI BLACK LEVEL on low and PS4 on full), you'll get crushed blacks. HDMI BLACK LEVEL on Normal and PS4 on limited and you'll get grayish blacks.
AncientAlien is offline  
post #18 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 02:54 PM
Newbie
 
Ryanoserous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
 

 

Ignore that site, it gets at least one basic thing wrong. Not worth going into detail, just ignore it please.

 

Games are rendered in 32-bit. Outputting in 48bit is pointless, it's no different than converting 16bit audio to 24bit. You cant get something from nothing.

 

As far as RGB and YCbCr range - use limited. If you set it to "Automatic", it defaults to limited, even if your TV supports full. The Xbox One's calibration also recommends RGB limited.  16-235 is now basically the official standard for games. RGB full will probably look identical, but you're technically out of spec.   

That's not true, I have both my ps4 and TV set to auto and it defaults to full range.

Ryanoserous is offline  
post #19 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 03:05 PM
Newbie
 
Ryanoserous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It locks to limited because blurays are encoded in ycbcr, and ycbcr is always supposed to be the limited range (16-235). RGB full (0-255) exists only for compatibility with PCs, but if you set everything to automatic, the PS4 will default RGB to limited range. So that's what you should use...if the picture isn't vibrant enough, fix that with other settings.


I have everything set to automatic and I'm full sure my ps4 defaults to full range, though blurays are completely unaffected as they are encoded in ycbcr as you've stated.

Ryanoserous is offline  
post #20 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 03:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanoserous View Post


I have everything set to automatic and I'm full sure my ps4 defaults to full range, though blurays are completely unaffected as they are encoded in ycbcr as you've stated.

What TV? And what makes you sure it's in full?

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #21 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 04:02 PM
Newbie
 
Ryanoserous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post


What TV? And what makes you sure it's in full?


Panasonic LED, model: TX-L50BL6B, It's a UK & Ireland model. I'm sure because when i have both the TV and PS4 set to auto or full the picture looks much more vibrant in comparison to when both are set to limited and without any loss of detail in darker areas of scenes, everything looks perfectly natural in regards to color. When the ps4 is set to limited and the tv is set to auto and vice versa i get same picture as when both are set to limited. The menu on my TV is called HDMI RGB Range, I have the following options: Auto Full Normal, normal being limited.

Ryanoserous is offline  
post #22 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 05:05 PM
Senior Member
 
AncientAlien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanoserous View Post


Panasonic LED, model: TX-L50BL6B, It's a UK & Ireland model. I'm sure because when i have both the TV and PS4 set to auto or full the picture looks much more vibrant in comparison to when both are set to limited and without any loss of detail in darker areas of scenes, everything looks perfectly natural in regards to color. When the ps4 is set to limited and the tv is set to auto and vice versa i get same picture as when both are set to limited. The menu on my TV is called HDMI RGB Range, I have the following options: Auto Full Normal, normal being limited.

RGB Full and RGB Limited will look identical if your TV supports Full. Only when you reverse settings will you notice a difference. (RGB FULL on PS3/PS4 and Limited on TV will crush black level. RGB LIMITED on PS3/PS4 and Full on TV will give you washed-out colors and gray blacks.)
Matching Full to Full and Limited to Limited will be the same. Why use Auto? Blu-Ray won't be affected. I'm not sure if Netflix would though.
AncientAlien is offline  
post #23 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 05:33 PM
Newbie
 
Ryanoserous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientAlien View Post


RGB Full and RGB Limited will look identical if your TV supports Full. Only when you reverse settings will you notice a difference. (RGB FULL on PS3/PS4 and Limited on TV will crush black level. RGB LIMITED on PS3/PS4 and Full on TV will give you washed-out colors and gray blacks.)
Matching Full to Full and Limited to Limited will be the same. Why use Auto? Blu-Ray won't be affected. I'm not sure if Netflix would though.

All i know is the picture looks much better when both are set to full or auto and without any loss of detail, my tv definitely supports full range as the settings are there. I use auto because i read somewhere that some games use full rgb and some limited so the tv and ps4 should adjust accordingly if this is the case. I'm aware that Blu-Ray movies are not affected, netflix is though. Neflix videos definitely look better though I'm not sure how because i was under the impression that most movies and tv shows are encoded in the limited range, perhaps my tv is doing something to achieve this? Anyway the proof is in the pudding, the picture is most definitely better this way.

Ryanoserous is offline  
post #24 of 113 Old 02-05-2014, 09:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanoserous View Post

All i know is the picture looks much better when both are set to full or auto and without any loss of detail, my tv definitely supports full range as the settings are there. I use auto because i read somewhere that some games use full rgb and some limited so the tv and ps4 should adjust accordingly if this is the case. I'm aware that Blu-Ray movies are not affected, netflix is though. Neflix videos definitely look better though I'm not sure how because i was under the impression that most movies and tv shows are encoded in the limited range, perhaps my tv is doing something to achieve this? Anyway the proof is in the pudding, the picture is most definitely better this way.

"Limited" is a misnomer anyway. Both "limited" and "full" have the same 8-bit, 256 step range. If anything, "full" actually has less dynamic range, since in order to maintain the same black and white points as limited/normal, it has to rip out and expand the 16-235 range to 0-255, causing banding. In case that's confusing:

Limited = 256 steps, 0-16 is considered below black, and should be clipped. 235-255 is considered above white, but is usually displayed. It's called 16-235 because that's the "valid" range, NOT because it actually has less steps. Effective dynamic range = 240 steps. If a game actually has below black (0-16) info, and you choose not to clip below 16, you'll have the full 256 steps.

Full = 256 steps, but they're created by ripping the 16-235 range out of the "normal" limited signal and artificially expanding. Since we're dealing with integer values, some steps need to be repeated, which causes banding. Effective dynamic range = 220 steps.

Unless a game itself recognizes it's in 0-255 mode and renders the full 255 steps, limited is technically superior. But since you can change the setting in the middle of gameplay without having to restart the game, I highly doubt that's happening. Far more likely the game has no idea, and the OS is just doing the conversion the crude way.
freemeat likes this.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #25 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 05:49 AM
Newbie
 
Ryanoserous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post


"Limited" is a misnomer anyway. Both "limited" and "full" have the same 8-bit, 256 step range. If anything, "full" actually has less dynamic range, since in order to maintain the same black and white points as limited/normal, it has to rip out and expand the 16-235 range to 0-255, causing banding. In case that's confusing:

Limited = 256 steps, 0-16 is considered below black, and should be clipped. 235-255 is considered above white, but is usually displayed. It's called 16-235 because that's the "valid" range, NOT because it actually has less steps. Effective dynamic range = 240 steps. If a game actually has below black (0-16) info, and you choose not to clip below 16, you'll have the full 256 steps.

Full = 256 steps, but they're created by ripping the 16-235 range out of the "normal" limited signal and artificially expanding. Since we're dealing with integer values, some steps need to be repeated, which causes banding. Effective dynamic range = 220 steps.

Unless a game itself recognizes it's in 0-255 mode and renders the full 255 steps, limited is technically superior. But since you can change the setting in the middle of gameplay without having to restart the game, I highly doubt that's happening. Far more likely the game has no idea, and the OS is just doing the conversion the crude way.

I see, almost everyone seems to have a different opinion on this subject but yours makes the most sense to me, Thanks for the info.

Ryanoserous is offline  
post #26 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 07:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanoserous View Post

I see, almost everyone seems to have a different opinion on this subject but yours makes the most sense to me, Thanks for the info.

It's a very confusing topic, for years I believed 0-255 had to be superior, because 0-255 sounds like a bigger range. Took a while for me to really understand what was going on.

It's silly that we have to clip anything on a digital display, this is all a holdover from the CRT days. Hopefully when the UHD spec is finalized, we don't have to deal with this below black and above white nonsense. Black should be zero, white should be the max for whatever bit depth (255, 65535, etc).

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #27 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 09:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
slyderulz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Armpit of Civilization
Posts: 896
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

It's a very confusing topic, for years I believed 0-255 had to be superior, because 0-255 sounds like a bigger range. Took a while for me to really understand what was going on.

It's silly that we have to clip anything on a digital display, this is all a holdover from the CRT days. Hopefully when the UHD spec is finalized, we don't have to deal with this below black and above white nonsense. Black should be zero, white should be the max for whatever bit depth (255, 65535, etc).

So bd, if we assume that no console games are actually coded to take advantage of the expanded/full RGB gammut, would it be best to set both the TV and the PS4 to limited to make sure that no console or TV color conversion is happening?

I've always calibrated for correct black level...but I've never really paid attention to color banding. I always assumed it was nature of the beast with plasmas, but if I could reduce the banding on my Panny GT30 by setting both the TV and console to limited heck yeah I'll do it!biggrin.gif

XBOX LIVE ID: JeepR kReapR
PSN ID: JeepR_kReapR

 

Originally Posted by emartins

Instead of the usual 2 minutes, give her 5 minutes of nothing but that Jeep ecstasy. She will be exhausted and fall right to sleep. You are now free to play.


Thats what I do.

slyderulz is offline  
post #28 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 09:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyderulz View Post

So bd, if we assume that no console games are actually coded to take advantage of the expanded/full RGB gammut, would it be best to set both the TV and the PS4 to limited to make sure that no console or TV color conversion is happening?

I've always calibrated for correct black level...but I've never really paid attention to color banding. I always assumed it was nature of the beast with plasmas, but if I could reduce the banding on my Panny GT30 by setting both the TV and console to limited heck yeah I'll do it!biggrin.gif

Well, it's technically not color gamut, that's something else entirely. This is the dynamic range. But yes, set it to limited. That's the standard for TV and Video. The full range option only exists for compatibility with gear that doesn't support the video standard.

I doubt it'll solve any banding issues on your plasma, but now that you know, you may as well set it correctly.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
post #29 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 09:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
slyderulz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Armpit of Civilization
Posts: 896
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Well, it's technically not color gamut, that's something else entirely. This is the dynamic range. But yes, set it to limited. That's the standard for TV and Video. The full range option only exists for compatibility with gear that doesn't support the video standard.

I doubt it'll solve any banding issues on your plasma, but now that you know, you may as well set it correctly.

I've always calibrated, but nothing past basic patterns for color (with a blue filter), brightness and contrast. Never knew 16-235 and 0-255 were just dynamic range values. I've got to get into the calibration forum here to brush up on my jargon wink.gif

XBOX LIVE ID: JeepR kReapR
PSN ID: JeepR_kReapR

 

Originally Posted by emartins

Instead of the usual 2 minutes, give her 5 minutes of nothing but that Jeep ecstasy. She will be exhausted and fall right to sleep. You are now free to play.


Thats what I do.

slyderulz is offline  
post #30 of 113 Old 02-06-2014, 11:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bd2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyderulz View Post

I've always calibrated, but nothing past basic patterns for color (with a blue filter), brightness and contrast. Never knew 16-235 and 0-255 were just dynamic range values. I've got to get into the calibration forum here to brush up on my jargon wink.gif

Yeah, it's just the number of brightness gradations of primary colors (and secondaries/whites when combined). The gamut is the palette of colors, defined by the actual color of the primaries. So they're related.

Steam/PSN/Xbox Live: Darius510
bd2003 is offline  
Reply PlayStation Area

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off