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post #181 of 201 Old 12-29-2014, 01:51 PM
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PS4 Linear PCM outputting only stereo over HDMI on Sony ES receiver?! Anyone...

Maybe someone else can explain it to him better than I can.

Think about it this way....the reason you can't mix console sounds into a bitstream is the same reason games can't bitstream at all.

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Last edited by bd2003; 12-29-2014 at 02:13 PM.
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post #182 of 201 Old 12-29-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
Maybe someone else can explain it to him better than I can.

Think about it this way....the reason you can't mix console sounds into a bitstream is the same reason games can't bitstream at all.
No, I already conceded the point about games when defdog posted his response.

The original contention is that LPCM is inherently better quality than bitstream. Remember, it's an audio output setting - a delivery method. On a disc that already has encoding, it's not selecting a magical PCM, raw, unencoded track. Again, it's an audio output setting; it's not an audio track selection.

On a game, that would obviously depend on what audio is on the disc (raw PCM or encoded) along with the desire to have console sounds wrapped up in the output. And, indeed, LPCM is the setting I have on the PS4 for games and have no problem with getting surround sound that isn't taking stereo and mixing it up as others are experiencing.
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post #183 of 201 Old 12-29-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JKaufman View Post
On a game, that would obviously depend on what audio is on the disc (raw PCM or encoded) along with the desire to have console sounds wrapped up in the output. And, indeed, LPCM is the setting I have on the PS4 for games and have no problem with getting surround sound that isn't taking stereo and mixing it up as others are experiencing.

If you think it matters how the sound files are encoded on the disc then you're still misunderstanding the essential difference between games and movies.

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post #184 of 201 Old 12-29-2014, 04:08 PM
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If you think it matters how the sound files are encoded on the disc then you're still misunderstanding the essential difference between games and movies.
Well how about instead of being cryptic about it, you explain it then? So far, all that has been said, aside from console sounds being mixed in, is that game audio is different and I'm misunderstanding.
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post #185 of 201 Old 12-29-2014, 05:37 PM
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PS4 Linear PCM outputting only stereo over HDMI on Sony ES receiver?! Anyone...

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Originally Posted by JKaufman View Post
Well how about instead of being cryptic about it, you explain it then? So far, all that has been said, aside from console sounds being mixed in, is that game audio is different and I'm misunderstanding.

Ah, ok I see where the misunderstanding is. When I'm talking about mixing I'm not talking about the console blips, but the game itself. It's not a predetermined soundtrack that they can just compress and spit back out. Every sound effect, gunshot, dialog etc has to be mixed together and processed on the fly as you play it. Every time you watch a movie the soundtrack is exactly the same, every time you play a game it's completely unique. Basically everything the mixing engineers have to do to make a movie soundtrack, the game engine has to do in milliseconds. So regardless of how they're compressing it on disc, they need to decompress everything before mixing. At that point they've got a unique uncompressed waveform. The purest and easiest way to spit that final track out is PCM. Any sort of compression is pointless at best and degrading at worst.

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post #186 of 201 Old 12-30-2014, 03:29 PM
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Ah, ok I see where the misunderstanding is. When I'm talking about mixing I'm not talking about the console blips, but the game itself. It's not a predetermined soundtrack that they can just compress and spit back out. Every sound effect, gunshot, dialog etc has to be mixed together and processed on the fly as you play it. Every time you watch a movie the soundtrack is exactly the same, every time you play a game it's completely unique. Basically everything the mixing engineers have to do to make a movie soundtrack, the game engine has to do in milliseconds. So regardless of how they're compressing it on disc, they need to decompress everything before mixing. At that point they've got a unique uncompressed waveform. The purest and easiest way to spit that final track out is PCM. Any sort of compression is pointless at best and degrading at worst.
Gotcha! That makes much more sense as to why we all (should) use LPCM for the games. Thanks for breaking it down.
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post #187 of 201 Old 01-13-2015, 05:22 PM
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so i have ps4 via hdmi to pioneer vsx-820 receiver. set ps4 to pcm and i don't get any center channel audio. when i watch a bluray, it outputs in dobly hd or dts hd and the receiver recognizes that instantly and get proper 5.1 audio.

anyone have any troubleshooting ideas for games?
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post #188 of 201 Old 03-04-2015, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
so i have ps4 via hdmi to pioneer vsx-820 receiver. set ps4 to pcm and i don't get any center channel audio. when i watch a bluray, it outputs in dobly hd or dts hd and the receiver recognizes that instantly and get proper 5.1 audio.

anyone have any troubleshooting ideas for games?
i got the same problem
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post #189 of 201 Old 03-04-2015, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
so i have ps4 via hdmi to pioneer vsx-820 receiver. set ps4 to pcm and i don't get any center channel audio. when i watch a bluray, it outputs in dobly hd or dts hd and the receiver recognizes that instantly and get proper 5.1 audio.

anyone have any troubleshooting ideas for games?
I still haven't found a solution to this problem...been having it since day 1. I can fake it out by going to audio settings in the PS4 and changing output to optical. Then I can pick Pro Logic in my AVR. Keep in mind, there is no optical cable connected, so something is definitely up with the PS4. Every time I play a game, I have to do this. When I watch a movie, I switch back to HDMI and blu-rays play the center audio as expected. I'm really fed up with this thing. No help from Sony, and to top it all off, it can't even play a freaking music CD. I think I may be getting and Xbox next time around.
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post #190 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I still haven't found a solution to this problem...been having it since day 1. I can fake it out by going to audio settings in the PS4 and changing output to optical. Then I can pick Pro Logic in my AVR. Keep in mind, there is no optical cable connected, so something is definitely up with the PS4. Every time I play a game, I have to do this. When I watch a movie, I switch back to HDMI and blu-rays play the center audio as expected. I'm really fed up with this thing. No help from Sony, and to top it all off, it can't even play a freaking music CD. I think I may be getting and Xbox next time around.
There are numerous games such as CoD that only use their center channel for cutscenes, and that's it. It Has nothing to do with the PS4 as the Xbox One does this as well and there's not much you can do about it, short of upmixing on your AVR when using an LPCM connection over optical (2ch) or HDMI (8ch).

The reason that the optical option on PS4 will work when you aren't even using an S/PDIF connection is because HDMI can mimic this as it supports 2ch PCM and higher of course. It's odd that it does this, but again Xbox One does it as well.

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post #191 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Csbooth View Post
There are numerous games such as CoD that only use their center channel for cutscenes, and that's it. It Has nothing to do with the PS4 as the Xbox One does this as well and there's not much you can do about it, short of upmixing on your AVR when using an LPCM connection over optical (2ch) or HDMI (8ch).

The reason that the optical option on PS4 will work when you aren't even using an S/PDIF connection is because HDMI can mimic this as it supports 2ch PCM and higher of course. It's odd that it does this, but again Xbox One does it as well.
I could almost buy that explanation if it weren't for the fact that the center channel worked on pretty much all PS3 games. I go to PS4 and suddenly no center channel. The developers just decided not to use it anymore? Making a game with surround sound but then not using the center channel is just silly. I suppose anything is possible, but my PS3 worked great.
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post #192 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I could almost buy that explanation if it weren't for the fact that the center channel worked on pretty much all PS3 games. I go to PS4 and suddenly no center channel. The developers just decided not to use it anymore? Making a game with surround sound but then not using the center channel is just silly. I suppose anything is possible, but my PS3 worked great.
Hey, I agree wholeheartedly, but the thing is; the center channel is active during cutscenes on games like CoD, so SOMETHING is being fed to it, and therefore you have to accept it is working as intended.

It sucks, as I believe they could anchor other sounds to it, were they afraid to have some issues with panning of voices on the surrounds and fronts.

For what it's worth, some people do claim that reloading is anchored to the center channel for them using LPCM 5.1, so I guess it depends on various factors?
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post #193 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 07:18 AM
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Hey, I agree wholeheartedly, but the thing is; the center channel is active during cutscenes on games like CoD, so SOMETHING is being fed to it, and therefore you have to accept it is working as intended.

It sucks, as I believe they could anchor other sounds to it, were they afraid to have some issues with panning of voices on the surrounds and fronts.

For what it's worth, some people do claim that reloading is anchored to the center channel for them using LPCM 5.1, so I guess it depends on various factors?
I traded in COD a few weeks ago, but I don't think I was getting center at all, even on cutscenes. The other weird thing is, even on the PS4 menu screen, there isn't center sound. Well, there sort of is. If I put my ear right up to the center, I can sort of hear something very faintly. I'm pretty sure PS3 had center channel sound on the menu screens. Anyway, the Pro Logic trick works for now, but it's just a pain to always switch back and forth for movies and games.
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post #194 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I traded in COD a few weeks ago, but I don't think I was getting center at all, even on cutscenes. The other weird thing is, even on the PS4 menu screen, there isn't center sound. Well, there sort of is. If I put my ear right up to the center, I can sort of hear something very faintly. I'm pretty sure PS3 had center channel sound on the menu screens. Anyway, the Pro Logic trick works for now, but it's just a pain to always switch back and forth for movies and games.
Hmm, wish I knew, but sadly don't. I didn't even have multichannel PCM on PS3 as I was optical only at the time so 2ch for me lol. I'll have to dig it out and see about that. There are a good bit of threads regarding CoD and its center channel only during cutscenes. As you can imagine people were annoyed a great deal.
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post #195 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 07:44 AM
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Hmm, wish I knew, but sadly don't. I didn't even have multichannel PCM on PS3 as I was optical only at the time so 2ch for me lol. I'll have to dig it out and see about that. There are a good bit of threads regarding CoD and its center channel only during cutscenes. As you can imagine people were annoyed a great deal.
I was running Dolby via optical on my PS3 on my 3.1 system. It seemed to always work well. I think there were a few games here or there where there wasn't center channel sound, but most had it. There's a loooooong thread over on the official PS4 support forum on this, but last time I checked, there wasn't really a solution. I've actually been playing in Neo:6 mode lately (even though I still have 3.1 speakers). It gives center sound, but it seems like it spreads out the front sound stage more. It seems a little more immersive to me for games. In ProLogic II mode, sometimes the center seems a little too overpowering compared to the mains.
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post #196 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I was running Dolby via optical on my PS3 on my 3.1 system. It seemed to always work well. I think there were a few games here or there where there wasn't center channel sound, but most had it. There's a loooooong thread over on the official PS4 support forum on this, but last time I checked, there wasn't really a solution. I've actually been playing in Neo:6 mode lately (even though I still have 3.1 speakers). It gives center sound, but it seems like it spreads out the front sound stage more. It seems a little more immersive to me for games. In ProLogic II mode, sometimes the center seems a little too overpowering compared to the mains.
Ya, I checked out a few threads over the past decade or so and it seems there are quite a few that had only dialogue in the center speaker during cutscenes, and then some that seemed to use it effectively.

I think what it probably boils down to is that the sound engineers and what have you can't think of, or be bothered with finding creative uses for the center channel for their games lol.

I couldn't begin to tell you why, but that seems to be the case, and as you said, using upmixing software does seem to alleviate the absence of the sound from there, and as long as it sounds good then I suppose it's fine
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post #197 of 201 Old 03-05-2015, 08:04 AM
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In games like COD, I'd like to hear the gun noises coming from the center (my gun, at least) and the voices, too. Just having the center play the same sounds as the L/R speakers would be nice. I'd like to hear some sound coming from the center. At least I can "fake" it, so I'm pretty happy for now.

I guess if I just bought a blu-ray player and used the PS4 only for gaming, I'd never have to worry about always switching the sound. Maybe this is Sony's evil plot all along, LOL. I bought a CD player because the PS4 wouldn't play CDs like the PS3 would. I bought a media player because the PS4 wouldn't stream from my PC or play files off a USB. Guess I just need to keep buying stuff, haha.
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post #198 of 201 Old 04-11-2015, 07:18 PM
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On Bloodborne we're having the problem that the game starts off as 7.1 PCM (as set in Sound options) then, at some point, drops to 2 channel PCM. We pause the game and switch to DTS (or Dolby) then back again and that fixes it.

Any suggestions on what could be causing that?
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post #199 of 201 Old 04-12-2015, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Csbooth View Post
Ya, I checked out a few threads over the past decade or so and it seems there are quite a few that had only dialogue in the center speaker during cutscenes, and then some that seemed to use it effectively.

I think what it probably boils down to is that the sound engineers and what have you can't think of, or be bothered with finding creative uses for the center channel for their games lol.

I couldn't begin to tell you why, but that seems to be the case, and as you said, using upmixing software does seem to alleviate the absence of the sound from there, and as long as it sounds good then I suppose it's fine
I asked a sound engineer from one of the biggest game studios, and he told me they do it for the same reason they only use the center for dialogue in movies - the center is typically the smallest speaker and the mains are much larger and designed to handle sound effects. If they put everything in the middle of your screen through the center, they'd be overloading the smallest speaker and leaving the big ones idle.

That said, not everyone has a dinky center and they should allow you to choose whether or not to route effects to the center (this studio does). But it's not laziness or a lack of creativity.

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post #200 of 201 Old 05-19-2015, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
Ah, ok I see where the misunderstanding is. When I'm talking about mixing I'm not talking about the console blips, but the game itself. It's not a predetermined soundtrack that they can just compress and spit back out. Every sound effect, gunshot, dialog etc has to be mixed together and processed on the fly as you play it. Every time you watch a movie the soundtrack is exactly the same, every time you play a game it's completely unique. Basically everything the mixing engineers have to do to make a movie soundtrack, the game engine has to do in milliseconds. So regardless of how they're compressing it on disc, they need to decompress everything before mixing. At that point they've got a unique uncompressed waveform. The purest and easiest way to spit that final track out is PCM. Any sort of compression is pointless at best and degrading at worst.
To add to this, the reason games indicate they support Dolby Digital or DTS seems to be based on how the in-game sound engine works in order to easily allow encoding by the console to whatever format. Before HDMI, the encoding was necessary as optical doesn't have the bandwidth required for 5.1+ LPCM, so the PCM from the game engine was encoded to an optical friendly format essentially for transmission reasons and the decoded back to PCM by the receiver. Now that HDMI is standard, there's no longer any reason to encode unless you lack the necessary equipment.


I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but EDID seems to be the culprit behind the issue in the OP. By not allowing HDMI pass through from the receiver (which has been mentioned), you get EDID communication going between the PS4 and AVR rather than the PS4 and TV.
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post #201 of 201 Old 05-22-2015, 02:43 PM
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I was under the impression that games with Dolby Digital audio make use of Dolby Digital Live, a technology that allows real-time encoding of game audio on a DD bitstream, as described here:

Quote:
Dolby Digital Live works inside your PC or game console while you play, encoding the 5.1-channel audio in the game's audio engine into a Dolby Digital output bitstream. This makes the audio compatible with all Dolby Digital 5.1 playback systems, including A/V receivers, home-theater-in-a-box (HTiB) systems, and integrated 5.1 speaker systems.
(Sorry, can't post links yet, just google Dolby Digital Live)

I think there is a similar technology of real-time encoding used by games that have DTS audio.

If you would choose Linear PCM as your preferred audio format, then, the console would take the DD bitstream created with Dolby Digital Live and convert it to LPCM to send it to your receiver. If you would choose, say, Bitstream (Dolby) then the DD bitstream created with Dolby Digital Live would be sent to your receiver to be converted into LPCM.

But I may be (and I am probably) wrong about this.
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