Making PS2 output progressive with Descaler (Screenshots included!) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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We got into this discussion on another thread, and I thought it was of more general interest to create a new thread out of.

I plugged in the PS2 and fed the composite RCA jack through my HTPC's Video In so Descaler could do its stuff and make all my PS2 games' 480i output progressive (480p).

I have uploaded the results to the screenshots area of the AVS Forum Gallery.
All images have the title "PS2 Descaled". Or you can just look for images under my username, red-3:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgall...0&ppuser=57362

(Note that I did very little tweaking from the way I have it set up for the cable TV feed into it. There are a million options in Descaler which can be used to improve the image quality/performance even more.)

On a couple of shots I turned on the Gamma filter because the game was
so dark.
Also the images seem quite soft. I don't know if there is a way to make them sharper without getting more undesirable artifacts like accentuated jaggies, but I'll do some experimenting.
When you view the images, you may notice they are a little 'stretched'. They were captured at a resolution of 720x480. The pixel width can be adjusted in Descaler to give a more accurate aspect ratio in the captured image, but I didn't realise this until I had captured all the images!

I also tried processing a DVD feed from the PS2, and got hit by the Macrovision 'anti-piracy' bars. I was pumping it through the VCR from the PS2. I wonder if they will go away if I connect directly into the TV Tuner/Video capture card?

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post #2 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 08:08 PM
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I now more appreciate component hooked into my Holo3D I. ;)
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post #3 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 08:22 PM
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what capture card are you using?
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post #4 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 08:29 PM
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You can get much better results with a capture card/PS2 combo if you use S-Video and set Dscaler for NTSC-J (Japan) . All PS2's are NTSC-J , which is why they look so dark set at standard NTSC .


--------- Jason
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post #5 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Statix
what capture card are you using?
ATI TV Wonder VE

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post #6 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoMeanMugs
I now more appreciate component hooked into my Holo3D I. ;)
If you are using a PS2 this way, can you give more info?

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post #7 of 45 Old 12-21-2004, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaGamePimp
You can get much better results with a capture card/PS2 combo if you use S-Video and set Dscaler for NTSC-J (Japan) . All PS2's are NTSC-J , which is why they look so dark set at standard NTSC .


--------- Jason
Thanks for the advice. Now if only I can find a PS/2 S-Video cable...

The stores are surprisingly sparse on accessories (except for the Eye-Toy!!!)

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post #8 of 45 Old 12-22-2004, 06:11 PM
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Can anyone confirm or deny lag issues with any particular capture card? I'm interested in trying an ATI TV Wonder, but I want to see if Hot Shots Golf or other timing critical games lag like they do with a direct 480i input to my Samsung DLP.

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post #9 of 45 Old 12-23-2004, 05:21 PM
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I'm using an IScan HD+ to convert my PS2 to 720p. Run it through my projector in native mode and then zoom to remove the overscan bars.

Awesome!

Even though I'm not passing the audio through the IScan I've not noticed any lag between the video and the the audio.
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post #10 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red-3
If you are using a PS2 this way, can you give more info?
I've got my DVD megachanger, Xbox, and PS2 going into an Audio Authority 1154A then into the Holo3D 1. If you'd like to do screenshot comparisons, LMK. I'd just hate to think you think you're getting the best that you can. I can e-mail you a bitmap of a capture I took of the move Unstoppable to compare to your movie pics. I'd post it, but it's 3.75 megs. :)
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post #11 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by moggy123
I'm using an IScan HD+ to convert my PS2 to 720p. Run it through my projector in native mode and then zoom to remove the overscan bars.

Awesome!

Even though I'm not passing the audio through the IScan I've not noticed any lag between the video and the the audio.
Do you notice any difference between 480i and 480p input? I was thinking about picking up one of those scalers to do some comparisons to my current setup since I can only input 480i. I've always wondered if I could up my PQ as well. For anyone reading this, how big is the PQ difference between 480i and 480p?
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post #12 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 12:24 AM
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Are you running through a VCR? I notice macrovision bars on the THX screenshot.
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post #13 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 07:11 AM
 
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Nice catch. I didn't see that until I enlarged the picture.
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post #14 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 10:05 AM
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He said he had Macrovision problems running through a VCR in his original post.

Let me further explain my problem. I have a Samsung 5063W which "lags" when it gets a 480i input. The TV is behind the game and timing-critical games are impossible to play. I've already tried an iScan Pro to convert to 480p but it didn't help. The problem is a combination of upscaling/deinterlacing/filtering.

I'm hoping that a TV capture card will bring the image to the screen fast enough. Since the PC is outputting a non-interlaced, 1280x720 image via DVI to the screen, that should eliminate all the lag, provided the signal from capture card to video card is fast enough. That's what I'm trying to confirm before buying yet another piece of equipment that doesn't solve the problem.

Other than that, yeah, the PS2 looks great through DScaler, but the video-in on my video card doesn't cut it at all.

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post #15 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 04:59 PM
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I have 0 lag going through the Holo3D. :)
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post #16 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoMeanMugs
I've got my DVD megachanger, Xbox, and PS2 going into an Audio Authority 1154A then into the Holo3D 1. If you'd like to do screenshot comparisons, LMK. I'd just hate to think you think you're getting the best that you can. I can e-mail you a bitmap of a capture I took of the move Unstoppable to compare to your movie pics. I'd post it, but it's 3.75 megs. :)
Please do! If you post it on the gallery then the system will create a thumbnail but allow users with a fast internet to download the full-size image.
(BTW if the image is TIF, convert it to JPG and the size will drastically reduce. The image quality shouldn't degrade so much that it makes much of a difference.)

What rez are you upscaling to to produce such a large image?

Note that I will not be adding a Holo3D to my system, but I'm curious to see the 'Cadillac' of solutions.

What is the best anyone has achieved from Descaler via S-Video?

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post #17 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaGamePimp
You can get much better results with a capture card/PS2 combo if you use S-Video and set Dscaler for NTSC-J (Japan) . All PS2's are NTSC-J , which is why they look so dark set at standard NTSC .


--------- Jason
Where is this setting? I cannot find it and I'm running DScaler v4.

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post #18 of 45 Old 12-24-2004, 09:36 PM
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Settings -> Advanced Settings -> Field Timing Settings (I think)...there's an NTSC-M (Japan) setting there.

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post #19 of 45 Old 12-25-2004, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually Video Card -> Video Format -> NTSC-Japan

Quite happy with the output on Christmas Day.
I tried Dance Dance Revolution and there was no noticable delay.
Using a PIII 600 HTPC with ATI TV Wonder and DScaler 4.
Haven't tried the Hot Shots Golf 'benchmark' for lag yet.

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post #20 of 45 Old 12-26-2004, 02:58 PM
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Got the same setup...PS2->ATI TV Wonder Pro->DScaler4->Samsung 5063W. Didn't alleviate any Hot Shots Golf lag whatsoever. How are you hooking up your PS2? I'm using S-Video.

You should also notice lag in Dance Dance Revolution. Mute your sound and try to hit the arrow visually.

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post #21 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cush1978
Got the same setup...PS2->ATI TV Wonder Pro->DScaler4->Samsung 5063W. Didn't alleviate any Hot Shots Golf lag whatsoever. How are you hooking up your PS2? I'm using S-Video.

You should also notice lag in Dance Dance Revolution. Mute your sound and try to hit the arrow visually.

Cush
S-Video too - I bought a lead.

There was definitely no lag in DDR. I jumped on the mat at exactly the time the arrow passed the target and I got Marvellous! in the Training Mode. (This is better than Perfect! in this mode.)

What's your PC's specification? Mine is not great, but adequate (actually its a cruddy eMachine brand, so there's absolutely no magic going on at the hardware level!!):
PIII 600
GForce2
Enough RAM (256Mb I think.)

Things to try. Make sure you have a bare minimum of processes running on your PC.
Set up DScaler to match the speed of your processor and make sure that DScaler is set to top priority over your other apps.
Turn all the extra settings off in DScaler. (All Filters off, Judder Terminator off, etc, etc.)

Choose a setting which is designed for speed not quality. (Basic Bob or Weave should do it I think.)

If you still have lag, then I would ask the following questions:

What is your OS? (If you're not using XP then seriously consider it.)

Is my system clean and efficient? (When I replaced my main PC and took the old one downstairs to work as an HTPC, I had terrible problems with video applications, even playing DVDs was jittery and unstable. I cleaned off the whole PC and reloaded the operating system (XP). I load only the applications I absolutely need on it and keep the hardware drivers up to date. Not had a problem since.)

What video card (not capture card) are you using? Is it fast enough, and does it do video overlay efficiently.

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post #22 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 10:40 AM
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Whew, a lot of questions, but if we get to the bottom of this, that'd be great.

PC Spec:
P4 2.4GHz (533Mhz FSB)
1GB DDR 400 RAM
GeForce 4 Ti4800SE
Windows XP - SP2

Don't know much about DScaler, but it autodetects and sets itself up for a 1GHz+ processor. Turned off all the filters I know how to. Once I cycled through them all, but didn't see much difference between them.

I don't run much of anything on this particular PC. I also keep hardware drivers up to date.

I haven't reloaded it yet, but I honestly don't think I need to; that'd be a last resort after everything else.

I'd say a GeForce 4 is good enough for video overlay. Maybe not? It's basically a GeForce 4 4400 with 8x AGP.

If I watch DivX and DVD movies, I don't have any problems...playback is fine.

I've used the ATI software with lagging results as well; so I don't know if I can do better in DScaler.

And yeah, Marvelous is the best you can do on DDR. Are you hooked up to a 5063W? Shouldn't matter; I got lag on my computer monitor leading me to believe the trip from the capture card to the video card was too long.

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post #23 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 10:49 AM
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I interpreted the post's title as to mean that you did something to the PS2 in order to get it to output progressive, but really you just took an interlaced source and deinterlaced it, no? Couldn't this have been done with any stand-alone deinterlacer?

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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post #24 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheFerret
I interpreted the post's title as to mean that you did something to the PS2 in order to get it to output progressive, but really you just took an interlaced source and deinterlaced it, no? Couldn't this have been done with any stand-alone deinterlacer?
It can, or you can use a PC with Descaler software, which is what I'm referring to in the thread title. This can be cheaper and just as effective as a using a separate device. Also it often beats using a TV's built in 'line-doubler'.

For those of us who already have a HTPC setup, it also means that we don't need an extra box in our rig, when there is great free software out there.

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post #25 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cush1978
Whew, a lot of questions, but if we get to the bottom of this, that'd be great.

PC Spec:
P4 2.4GHz (533Mhz FSB)
1GB DDR 400 RAM
GeForce 4 Ti4800SE
Windows XP - SP2

Don't know much about DScaler, but it autodetects and sets itself up for a 1GHz+ processor. Turned off all the filters I know how to. Once I cycled through them all, but didn't see much difference between them.

I don't run much of anything on this particular PC. I also keep hardware drivers up to date.

I haven't reloaded it yet, but I honestly don't think I need to; that'd be a last resort after everything else.

I'd say a GeForce 4 is good enough for video overlay. Maybe not? It's basically a GeForce 4 4400 with 8x AGP.

If I watch DivX and DVD movies, I don't have any problems...playback is fine.

I've used the ATI software with lagging results as well; so I don't know if I can do better in DScaler.

And yeah, Marvelous is the best you can do on DDR. Are you hooked up to a 5063W? Shouldn't matter; I got lag on my computer monitor leading me to believe the trip from the capture card to the video card was too long.

Cush
From your description it sounds like we can safely narrow it down to capture card set up. You have a better PC than I do. I will check my set up and get back to you.
In the mean time you might want to try just placing it in a different slot in the motherboard. You may have a hardware conflict...

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post #26 of 45 Old 12-27-2004, 08:10 PM
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Yeah, I'd like to see what you have for a setup. I actually made the lag worse once; not sure how. About a full second delay. I turned off everything I could find, but it didn't seem to change much.

Maybe there's some key setting that needs to be narrowed down or whatever. Seems to be about the same as capturing off the SVideo input on my capture card.

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post #27 of 45 Old 12-29-2004, 08:33 PM
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Don't forget me Red!

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post #28 of 45 Old 01-01-2005, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Cush,

My settings are that the Video Capture Card is on IRQ 10 with no conflicts.
There are several drivers in place for this card, and I seem to remember that the process was a two phase installation with a restart in between.

Otherwise I'm not sure what to tell you.
I get best image quality and performance with DeInterlace mode set to Video Greedy (High Motion) and I have the card setting to 300MHz processor.

Maybe try to turn your settings down and then build them up to identify the lag.

Good luck!

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post #29 of 45 Old 01-02-2005, 07:48 PM
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Well I don't know...I played with all the software settings and even set it to a 300MHz and also played with deinterlacing settings...still get lag that doesn't appear to change at all. I wish I knew what the problem was; I can obviously use computer software no problem, so the whole system's not affected. Maybe I'll have to reinstall to try it out.

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post #30 of 45 Old 01-02-2005, 11:08 PM
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I promised to post some pics. I've been working too much lately. By the time I get home, I'm to tired to do anything else. I'll get some up Wednesday.
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