PS3's HDMI has built-in lag on PS1/PS2 games. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 11-18-2006, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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After getting my chance to mess around with the PS3 today, I stumbled upon a very unfortunate discovery.

PS3's HDMI out only supports 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p. It cannot output a 480i signal from HDMI. But all PS1 and most PS2 games are only 480i . . . so what does this mean?

Basically, the PS3 performs deinterlacing on the 480i signals from PS1/PS2 games so that it can output via the minimum 480p through HDMI. However, it does a very poor job of deinterlacing! Not only are there severe combing artifacts, but there is also a built in 2-3 frame lag, the same lag you would feel if you were to feed a 480i signal straight to your HDTV.

Currently, the only way to avoid the lag is by outputting to an external scaler which can properly (and quickly) deinterlace the 480i signal. However, since the PS3 forces 480p on PS1/PS2 games through HDMI, there is a built-in input lag which affects all games and cannot be avoided. That means that the PS3 owners who paid large amounts of money for the iScan VP series will not be able to play PS1/PS2 games lag-free via HDMI, even with the "Game Mode" enabled.

The PS1/PS2 games DO output 480i with Composite, S-Video, and Component cables. However, with Component cables as you know, the Blu-ray constraint token prevents you from getting a 1080p signal. Additionally, most HDTVs can't even accept 1080p via Component.

This means that you'll lose 1080p if you go through Component, but if you use HDMI all PS1/PS2 games will have built-in input lag.

No 1080i support was one thing, but I'm in a state of utter disbelief that the PS3 cannot properly output a video signal via Component nor HDMI. Since the PS3 cannot output both a Component and HDMI signal simultaneously, the only way to work around this issue currently is to tediously change output modes in the system settings every time you want to play a Blu-ray movie or PS1/PS2 game. This is completely unacceptable and should be addressed immediately.

There are many possible fixes for this problem that could be implemented in a future firmware. Here are just a few of the ways that Sony could fix this issue:

1) 480i output could be allowed via HDMI so that users could properly deinterlace PS1/PS2 titles with seperate hardware.
2) There could be an option to automatically switch to the AV Multiout (Component) for PS1/PS2 games, while using HDMI output for other material.

or, the best solution,

3) Actually use a decent deinterlacing algorithm on PS1/PS2 titles, so that they don't lag and suffer from terrible combing artifacts.


Now, while #3 would be the best solution, it's the solution I see the least likely for Sony to actually implement because it would take actual work. #1 and #2 are simple workarounds that could be applied, but they still don't do anything about the real problem.

Once this gets out enough, though, I hope that Sony will realize the critical importance of this issue and quickly implement #1 or #2 in the next firmware update while diligently working on #3.

If you are unsatisfied with this as I am, please visit

http://www.us.playstation.com/Corpor...nsumerServices and tell Sony that this is unacceptable performance.
The consumer's voice must be heard if we expect this issue to be dealt with.
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post #2 of 67 Old 11-18-2006, 11:29 PM
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Nice post if accurate. I hope Sony has some plan and a means for dealing with these kinds of issues.

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post #3 of 67 Old 11-19-2006, 02:18 AM
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I'd prefer to output 480i and let the TV do the de-interlacing, etc. At the very least I could go to Game Mode like I do with the PS2. Option 2 being a variant giving endusers the most control, depending on their equipment, could be the best option but probably the least likely.

I'm imagining once they get the software emulation perfected (and decide to pull the EE/GC chip from future PS3 builds), there will be a firmware update to address the compatibility issues.

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post #4 of 67 Old 11-19-2006, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I'd prefer to output 480i and let the TV do the de-interlacing, etc. At the very least I could go to Game Mode like I do with the PS2. Option 2 being a variant giving endusers the most control, depending on their equipment, could be the best option but probably the least likely.

I'm imagining once they get the software emulation perfected (and decide to pull the EE/GC chip from future PS3 builds), there will be a firmware update to address the compatibility issues.

I'm sure that's the eventual plan since there are people working specifically on PS2 emulation for Sony. Maybe that's just the easiest way to add scaling capabilities.

For now, I think that simply allowing 480i output via HDMI would be an acceptable (and the most realistic) workaround.
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post #5 of 67 Old 11-19-2006, 04:40 PM
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i think i have a solution..but this is seriously just something that popped up in my head while reading the post..

it may be a hassle..but why not switch to the composite cables that came in the box? it's kind of a drag to switch and i myself haven't tried it..but it might take away the lag from ps1/ps2 games..
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post #6 of 67 Old 11-19-2006, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim87 View Post

i think i have a solution..but this is seriously just something that popped up in my head while reading the post..

it may be a hassle..but why not switch to the composite cables that came in the box? it's kind of a drag to switch and i myself haven't tried it..but it might take away the lag from ps1/ps2 games..

Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

The PS1/PS2 games DO output 480i with Composite, S-Video, and Component cables. However, with Component cables as you know, the Blu-ray constraint token prevents you from getting a 1080p signal. Additionally, most HDTVs can't even accept 1080p via Component.

This means that you'll lose 1080p if you go through Component, but if you use HDMI all PS1/PS2 games will have built-in input lag.

.
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post #7 of 67 Old 11-19-2006, 06:59 PM
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well i know the composite cables wont give you anything good for blu-ray..but the reason i said it would be a hassle is because i thought by reading my post you would automatically assume to switch back to hdmi when you were done playing whatever ps1/ps2 game you were playing. i dunno..i gave my 2 cents..sorry if i'm wrong
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post #8 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

3) Actually use a decent deinterlacing algorithm on PS1/PS2 titles, so that they don't lag and suffer from terrible combing artifacts.[/b]

Now, while #3 would be the best solution, it's the solution I see the least likely for Sony to actually implement because it would take actual work. #1 and #2 are simple workarounds that could be applied, but they still don't do anything about the real problem.

Once this gets out enough, though, I hope that Sony will realize the critical importance of this issue and quickly implement #1 or #2 in the next firmware update while diligently working on #3.

I thought the lag was because of the wireless controllers but I think you've nailed it.

A good deinterlacing algorithm shouldn't be so hard to develop. Sony should just pay off Xploder and "borrow" the code from the Xploder HDTV disc as a starting point. When the Xploder disc actually works its pretty amazing, even if its only at 480p. I'm sure Sony, with its vastly greater knowledge of the PS2/3 hardware could make the software even better and make it so 720p and 1080i upscaling doesn't shrink the screen
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post #9 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 07:05 AM
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What happens if you play one of the (handful of) 480i-only Xbox games in BC mode on the 360, and output it as 480p? Is the lag present? I don't have one of the 480i games.

Regarding having the TV scale it, aren't most if not all 1080p TVs adding at least 2-3 frames of lag anyway? And we certainly know that many 720p DLPs do. I'd prefer to see them fix the internal scaling, and do it fast and with a minimum of objectionable artifacts.
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post #10 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael St. Clair View Post

What happens if you play one of the (handful of) 480i-only Xbox games in BC mode on the 360, and output it as 480p? Is the lag present? I don't have one of the 480i games.

That's a very good question. Actually, though, I don't think ANY of the 480i-only Xbox 1 games are backwards compatible on the 360! Maybe you're on to something.

Quote:


Regarding having the TV scale it, aren't most if not all 1080p TVs adding at least 2-3 frames of lag anyway? And we certainly know that many 720p DLPs do. I'd prefer to see them fix the internal scaling, and do it fast and with a minimum of objectionable artifacts.

Yes, they do add 2-3 frames, but typically only on 480i sources. Most 1080p TVs (apart from Samsung DLPs and maybe some of the other DLPs) can scale a 480p (or better) signal to 1080p signal in less than one frame with no noticeable lag. It's only when you add a ton of image enhancing that the delay jumps to 2+ frames (which is why the Samsungs lag no matter what).

Of course, a scaler inside the PS3 itself would be preferable (would be nice to get 1080p from the PS2 game rather than 480p) but I really don't think there would be a big difference in performance. 480p is good enough for most HDTVs for a lag-free, artifact-free image.
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post #11 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 07:54 AM
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Adding 480i as an output option for HDMI assumes the HDMI output on the PS3 supports 480i in hardware. It might not just be a simple software fix.
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post #12 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 08:00 AM
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Here is one idea:

The PS3 can output video and audio from BOTH the HDMI and the standard composite/component ports at the same time. So you could buy the component cables (or s-video or use standard) and connect it with the analog audio to one of your inputs. When you are going to play a 480i game, switch it to the composite input.

I have not personally played a game this way, but I have tested the video/audio output and it works fine.
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post #13 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter81 View Post

Here is one idea:

The PS3 can output video and audio from BOTH the HDMI and the standard composite/component ports at the same time. So you could buy the component cables (or s-video or use standard) and connect it with the analog audio to one of your inputs. When you are going to play a 480i game, switch it to the composite input.

I have not personally played a game this way, but I have tested the video/audio output and it works fine.

Are you sure you can do it like this? I tried this over the weekend at a friend's place and it seemed like you had to actually change the video settings in the XMB before it would switch over. This would be a reasonable workaround if it actually works.
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post #14 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 08:12 AM
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I don't have any PS2 or PS1 games with me to test this out. But I will test it here in a few minutes and post up results. You may be right about having to change some video settings, I'm unsure of that right now.

I do know for sure that it will send the signal from both ports at the same time because that's how I have to hook it to my parents TV (I'm home visiting) through HDMI-DVI and then use the red/white cables for audio.
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post #15 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter81 View Post

I don't have any PS2 or PS1 games with me to test this out. But I will test it here in a few minutes and post up results. You may be right about having to change some video settings, I'm unsure of that right now.

I do know for sure that it will send the signal from both ports at the same time because that's how I have to hook it to my parents TV (I'm home visiting) through HDMI-DVI and then use the red/white cables for audio.

That makes sense. Of course you can output audio through the analog cables, but I'm pretty sure you have to change the video settings every time you want to switch between the AV MULTI out and the HDMI out. This is far too tedious to do every time you want to play a PS1/PS2 game which is why Sony needs to patch the firmware.
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post #16 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

Yes, they do add 2-3 frames, but typically only on 480i sources.

Some SXRD estimates, using the Halo 2 'train' tests, from another thread:


Sony SXRD A2000 Timings
A2000 480i DRC on Game Mode off: 45ms
A2000 480i Game Mode on: 21ms
A2000 480p: 45ms
A2000 720p: 42ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode off: 62ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode on: 39ms



Quote:


Most 1080p TVs (apart from Samsung DLPs and maybe some of the other DLPs) can scale a 480p (or better) signal to 1080p signal in less than one frame with no noticeable lag. It's only when you add a ton of image enhancing that the delay jumps to 2+ frames (which is why the Samsungs lag no matter what).

I think a big part of the lag issue with single-chip DLP is the need to calculate the temporal dither. Just my theory.
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post #17 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael St. Clair View Post

Some SXRD estimates, using the Halo 2 'train' tests, from another thread:


Sony SXRD A2000 Timings
A2000 480i DRC on Game Mode off: 45ms
A2000 480i Game Mode on: 21ms
A2000 480p: 45ms
A2000 720p: 42ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode off: 62ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode on: 39ms





I think a big part of the lag issue with single-chip DLP is the need to calculate the temporal dither. Just my theory.

Interesting. Thanks for your input!
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post #18 of 67 Old 11-20-2006, 02:14 PM
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Until there is a true solution from Sony I will just continue to have my PS2 readily available.
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post #19 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 12:12 PM
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So it seems like the consensus is that the lag is only present if you use HDMI. (Has everyone confirmed the lag, or is it TV dependant?) With component, there is no lag, correct? I don't have a 1080p TV, so I don't mind using component--I don't think I would lose much.

As far as bad picture quality: People say it looks bad on both HDMI and component. But is it better with component?

Anyone had any good/decent experiences with PS2 playback on a PS3? I plan to play a bunch of PS2 games I never had a chance to play, and am very disappointed by this news.
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post #20 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 12:44 PM
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I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.

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post #21 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.

Thanks for the reply. Hope you don't mind if I ask a few additional questions:

- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

- You zoom on 4:3 games? Doesn't that cut off the top and bottom of the game, which often contains important info? (That is how zoom works on my TV.)
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post #22 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 12:58 PM
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I have zero lag playing PS2 gameson my PS3 using HDMI.. My internal setting for the PS3 is 720p however it probably switches to 480p once I play the PS2 game. However at least with Tekken 5 it played great with no lag...I even set the game to 16:9 internally in the games settings and it looked great..
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post #23 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom

Ummmm.... why?
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post #24 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.

Don't mean to be a jerk, but if you claim to have no lag, you are simply incapable of feeling it. 3 frames isn't a lot of lag (about 50 or 60 ms) so you might not notice it until you complete a more accurate test. Plop in Guitar Hero 2 and you will be able to measure it very easily via the HDTV Calibration menu under video options. Nobody is trying to fool you--it happens to anyone, on any HDTV. See for yourself.

Wrestling games are different from typical fighting games in that all the moves have massive startup times, so that's a bad example anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post

I have zero lag playing PS2 gameson my PS3 using HDMI.. My internal setting for the PS3 is 720p however it probably switches to 480p once I play the PS2 game. However at least with Tekken 5 it played great with no lag...I even set the game to 16:9 internally in the games settings and it looked great..

The lag will disappear if you enable 480p in the video options for Tekken 5. Like I said already, if it's a PS2 game with native 480p support AND you enable it within the game, you will bypass the PS3's poor deinterlacing and be playing lag-free.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shaque786 View Post

- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

I have tested on several different HDTVs. The easiest way to see is with Guitar Hero 2, since you can easily enable or disable the game's native progressive scan. With the progressive scan mode unchecked, the PS3 deinterlaces the signal to 480p and the lag is around 50-60ms. With the progressive mode checked, the lag drops between 0-10ms (which is the response time 480p is supposed to have via HDMI).
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post #25 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaque786 View Post

Thanks for the reply. Hope you don't mind if I ask a few additional questions:

- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

A CRT tube. The Sony KD34XBR960.

It's possible my TV handles it better, yes.

Quote:

- You zoom on 4:3 games? Doesn't that cut off the top and bottom of the game, which often contains important info? (That is how zoom works on my TV.)

It depends on the game and this particular TV. Kind of a personal preference of mine with certain games.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #26 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Yeah, you're right. I'm lying and I'm accusing everyone who's complaining of this problem of lying as well.

No need to flame. I have done the tests and confirmed that the lag exists, there is simply no way you can deny it. Please test it and see for yourself, I'm not trying to hide anything from you.
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post #27 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

No need to flame. I have done the tests and confirmed that the lag exists, there is simply no way you can deny it. Please test it and see for yourself, I'm not trying to hide anything from you.

I don't currently own Guitar Hero 2. I do own Avia. What kind of test should I run?

FWIW, I'm not saying the lag problem doesn't exist, I'm simply saying that I personally do not have, or more specifically, perceive one.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #28 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I don't currently own Guitar Hero 2. I do own Avia. What kind of test should I run?

I have Avia as well, but as I think you know Avia is just a typical DVD with no way to test input lag. Avia was made before there was an HDTV lag problem, let alone HDTVs in many homes.

GH2 is the first video game that allows the end-user to test for input lag, which is why it's such a big deal. Before this game, you would have just had to take my word for it. If Blockbuster in your area carries it, try renting it. If all else fails and you have no interest in purchasing GH2, I will personally mail you my copy to borrow so that you can test it out and post your results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

FWIW, I'm not saying the lag problem doesn't exist, I'm simply saying that I personally do not have, or more specifically, perceive one.

Thanks for clarifying. Like I said, not all gamers can immediately notice a 50ms lag. It's about the same amount of lag you'll experience on most HDTVs when you run 480i material through them. Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean that other people won't, though. The lag is confirmed and it is definitely an issue for games that require frame-specific timing, especially fighting and rhythm games. Telling other users that there is no lag will just lead to confusion; we have a common goal and that is for Sony to fix the problem via a firmware update. I appreciate your understanding.
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post #29 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

I have Avia as well, but as I think you know Avia is just a typical DVD with no way to test input lag. Avia was made before there was an HDTV lag problem, let alone HDTVs in many homes.

GH2 is the first video game that allows the end-user to test for input lag, which is why it's such a big deal. Before this game, you would have just had to take my word for it. If Blockbuster in your area carries it, try renting it. If all else fails and you have no interest in purchasing GH2, I will personally mail you my copy to borrow so that you can test it out and post your results.


LOL, that's not necessary. Sorry about the earlier, snippy response.

I'll see if I can rent that thing pretty soon.

In the meantime: Any work arounds for this lag? Should we just use the component cables for PS2 and PS1 gaming?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #30 of 67 Old 11-26-2006, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

In the meantime: Any work arounds for this lag? Should we just use the component cables for PS2 and PS1 gaming?

If the game natively supports 480p, you can enable that in the options or by holding X + Triangle on startup and play lag-free via HDMI (or Component, for that matter).

If it doesn't, Component cables are the best workaround. Keep in mind that most HDTVs lag on 480i material also, so unless you have an external scaler you will probably experience lag on 480i-only games either way. The PS3 lag seems to be a bit worse than my HDTV's though, so I would just stick to Component if you're not using a scaler.
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