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post #181 of 280 Old 01-29-2007, 04:51 PM
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Here are some additional reasons why Sony tried to shroud the use of the scaler. I'm starting to lean to option 1.

1) The firmware was rushed and in their haste Sony decided to release a firmware upgrade to enable hardware scaling at the firmware level at a later date. Developers were told not to use the hardware scaler directly to avoid any conflicts with the firmware enabled scaling.


2) Sony did not want developers to use hardware scaler because they thought the majority of developers would develop in 720p and then upscale to 1080p using the hardware scaler.

3) The hardware scaling is courtesy of the Toshiba Super Companion chip and the SDK does not yet have complete support for the SCC chip.

4) There is a licensing issue with Toshiba on the use of the SCC chip for video scaling.

5) Since the PS3 is digital and uses HDMI, the hardware scaler requires additional system memory to scale the image. This is in contrast to the 360 where it's basically free because the 360 has analog out.
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post #182 of 280 Old 01-29-2007, 06:19 PM
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Hello,

@ truespeed, nr.5:
are you sure the scaler has a large memory footprint? Actually I´m not sure how the HDMI-Transfer to the screen is managed (should be a constant pixel stream) but I think it`s technically no problem at all to scale the picture pxiel for pixel in realtime. The largest memory footprint I could imagine could be one or two 1080pixel lines acting as buffers, from where the pixels or lines are streamed to the HDMI-Transmitter. That`s not ... this much. Something like 9kb .

have a nice time,
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post #183 of 280 Old 01-29-2007, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truespeed View Post

Here are some additional reasons why Sony tried to shroud the use of the scaler. I'm starting to lean to option 1.

1) The firmware was rushed and in their haste Sony decided to release a firmware upgrade to enable hardware scaling at the firmware level at a later date. Developers were told not to use the hardware scaler directly to avoid any conflicts with the firmware enabled scaling.


2) Sony did not want developers to use hardware scaler because they thought the majority of developers would develop in 720p and then upscale to 1080p using the hardware scaler.

3) The hardware scaling is courtesy of the Toshiba Super Companion chip and the SDK does not yet have complete support for the SCC chip.

4) There is a licensing issue with Toshiba on the use of the SCC chip for video scaling.

5) Since the PS3 is digital and uses HDMI, the hardware scaler requires additional system memory to scale the image. This is in contrast to the 360 where it's basically free because the 360 has analog out.

If I had to pick from those options, I'd choose option 2. Sony spent a lot of PR capital pounding the 1080p thing into the public consciousness. Having games written to 720p and upscaled would countermand that. Now that developers have had some issues getting 1080p content pushed out the door (Resistance, Motorstorm, etc...), Sony may have backed off on their position. At least for the time being. Whatever the reason, it's nice to see that the hardware is there. Hopefully Sony'll release a firmware update that exposes the scaler to DVD playback and PS1/2 games. Unless, as I mentioned above, the scaling is being done in the EE.
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post #184 of 280 Old 01-29-2007, 09:12 PM
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I am wondering if the reason dark knight is talking about, is just simply that lately alot of lockdown is coming down on upscaling DVD players. A perfect example is a product I recently purcashed advertised as a Hi-Def player, wireless streaming, etc,etc. What I was suprised to find is that even on the Digital DVI-D (HDCP) protected port, the commercial DVD's could still not be upscaled. Luckily I was able to get around this with a remote code hack put in place for "testing". Anyways, this is a pretty simple reason and since DK said it was pretty simple, just thought I would through my hat into the fray >

I also just want to add, there are so many people saying why would Sony hide this from people and actually ragging on them for it and praising how the 360 scaler works, do these people not realize that MS kept their scaler under raps for more then a year before releasing it for use? Anyways just find that kinda ironic.
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post #185 of 280 Old 01-29-2007, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob79 View Post

I also just want to add, there are so many people saying why would Sony hide this from people and actually ragging on them for it and praising how the 360 scaler works, do these people not realize that MS kept their scaler under raps for more then a year before releasing it for use? Anyways just find that kinda ironic.

MS didn't unlock every resolution at launch (and probably still hasn't) but the scaler was there and supported the 'official' HDTV resolutions. I'm sure from their stand point the less resolutions you have to support, the less customer service hassles you have. 1080P was only added when it became a marketing issue.

The PS3 problem with 1080i/p movies and 720p games at launch was a major issue. If you picked 720p for (most) games you got 480p blu-ray movies and if you picked 1080 for movies you got 480p games. Sony has improved the software config so you don't have to change your menu options every time you switch to the other content for most users but they are still leaving a decent % (10%?)of HDTV owners out in the dark. Seems like a strange thing to do if they have a functioning scaler in the PS3. I still haven't heard a reason other than hardware bug or legal/licensing issue that makes sense to me.
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post #186 of 280 Old 01-30-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob79 View Post


I also just want to add, there are so many people saying why would Sony hide this from people and actually ragging on them for it and praising how the 360 scaler works, do these people not realize that MS kept their scaler under raps for more then a year before releasing it for use? Anyways just find that kinda ironic.

I don't think the scaling was a secret thing. Xbox1 suffered the exact same issue the PS3 has right now. There was a very limited selection of HD games the bulk of which were 720p and not 1080i - and there was no scaler. Tons of threads and issues for years are all over the net about this and it frustrated the hell out of people since every other external device handled scaling whereas the Xbox1 was not designed with that in mind (nor as a "true HD" console). So come a generation forward and it's common sense that this will be dealt with since it's already been a known problem. Scaling should never have differentiated these two consoles, I have no idea how Sony got itself into this mess with a clear example stretching back to at least 2003 or whenever the first HD games for Xbox1 became available.

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post #187 of 280 Old 01-30-2007, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samdu View Post

Unless, as I mentioned above, the scaling is being done in the EE.

The emotion engine is a 300 mhz chip. Even if the EE could somehow grab the framebuffer in the nvidia hardware and manipulate it before it gets sent out of the system to the monitor (which i would bet my life on it not being set up to do this), there is no way a 300mhz chip could handle a high quality real time upscale to 1920x1080.

also, the EE and the rest of the playstation 2 hardware in the PS3 is only there for the time being. sony has stated that the plan is to soon switch over to software emulation of backwards compatibility for ps2/ps1 using the cell, and remove that hardware from the package to lower costs. the only reason they started shipping the early ps3's with the EE in it was because software emulation on cell wasnt quite ready yet. so they can't be relying on the EE for other non-bc system functionality or they wouldn't be able to remove it as planned.

that brings up another interesting question though. when they ship ps3's with the software emulator for backwards compatibility in place of the ps2 hardware, i wonder if the new firmware update will disable the ps2 hardware in early ps3's entirely and start relying on the emulator on cell instead for consistency? or will it give users of older systems with ps2 hardware the option of choosing hardware and software backwards compatibility?
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post #188 of 280 Old 01-30-2007, 01:58 PM
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I bet they lock EE chip once ps1/ps2 emulator is available in a firmware. They sure want a consistent environment in every ps3 boxes. And it gives one layer less to think about if/when more bug fixes are delivered to the emulator. And I sure emulator is ready, think about it. Its already (for ps1 games) run on PSP console.
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post #189 of 280 Old 01-31-2007, 12:45 PM
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According to this, my original theory of Emotion Engine still holds as a possibility....


http://ps3.qj.net/MS-Engineer-on-PS3...g/49/aid/81204
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post #190 of 280 Old 01-31-2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asong26 View Post

According to this, my original theory of Emotion Engine still holds as a possibility....


http://ps3.qj.net/MS-Engineer-on-PS3...g/49/aid/81204

I don't see how those two things are related. Also, I'm not sure an MS employee is a good source for Sony info, especially one with no experience with the PS3 dev kit.

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post #191 of 280 Old 01-31-2007, 03:05 PM
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When do you guys think we may see the first games that support this new scaling?
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post #192 of 280 Old 01-31-2007, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

I don't see how those two things are related. Also, I'm not sure an MS employee is a good source for Sony info, especially one with no experience with the PS3 dev kit.

Here:

Quote:
I see no sign that the PS3 contains a chip that can do vertical scaling, and this new feature (horizontal scaling) is a poor substitute for a true hardware scaler. It is a step forward for owners of 1080i only HDTVs, once PS3 games support it, but it is nowhere near as good as the Xbox 360's scaler.


This recent announcement is just for horizontal scaling, and horizontal scaling is easy. To do high quality horizontal scaling you just need to buffer up a few pixels and intelligently average between them.


Cheap horizontal scaling is even easier: you just send pixels to the video output a bit slower (or send pixels at the same rate, but read them from memory slower). It's the sort of thing that consoles have always been able to do. This new horizontal scaling feature just sounds like they are adjusting the video output rate.

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post #193 of 280 Old 02-01-2007, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixie Ruptin View Post

The emotion engine is a 300 mhz chip. Even if the EE could somehow grab the framebuffer in the nvidia hardware and manipulate it before it gets sent out of the system to the monitor (which i would bet my life on it not being set up to do this), there is no way a 300mhz chip could handle a high quality real time upscale to 1920x1080.

also, the EE and the rest of the playstation 2 hardware in the PS3 is only there for the time being. sony has stated that the plan is to soon switch over to software emulation of backwards compatibility for ps2/ps1 using the cell, and remove that hardware from the package to lower costs. the only reason they started shipping the early ps3's with the EE in it was because software emulation on cell wasnt quite ready yet. so they can't be relying on the EE for other non-bc system functionality or they wouldn't be able to remove it as planned.

that brings up another interesting question though. when they ship ps3's with the software emulator for backwards compatibility in place of the ps2 hardware, i wonder if the new firmware update will disable the ps2 hardware in early ps3's entirely and start relying on the emulator on cell instead for consistency? or will it give users of older systems with ps2 hardware the option of choosing hardware and software backwards compatibility?

I hope they let us choose and not simply disable the hardware side of it. The PS2 games I've played run very stable and the machine doesn['t get as hot when playing PS2 games on it. They need to fix Guitar Hero II so it works with the guitar. Other than that I am happy with it..
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post #194 of 280 Old 02-02-2007, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asong26 View Post

According to this, my original theory of Emotion Engine still holds as a possibility....


http://ps3.qj.net/MS-Engineer-on-PS3...g/49/aid/81204


Dear God,

The EE is soley for PS2 compatibility. The scalers are in the SCC. The SCC is a video and audio powerhouse and is the logical location for the scalers. Look at the PDF presentation from the Toshiba engineers for christ's sake!. They're right there in all their glory on Page 13 of the presentation and they're EVEN LABELED scalers.
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post #195 of 280 Old 02-02-2007, 10:53 PM
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Truespeed,
honest question here. If it's so obvious that the chip is an SCC, and that the scalers are even labeled in a nice diagram, then why still the vigorous debate on all the various forums that the PS3 even has a hardware scaler?
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post #196 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

Truespeed,
honest question here. If it's so obvious that the chip is an SCC, and that the scalers are even labeled in a nice diagram, then why still the vigorous debate on all the various forums that the PS3 even has a hardware scaler?

The only vigorous debate on whether the hardware scaler exists seem to all originate from 360 loyalists that are looking for a dog and pony show like the one presented by the Microsoft patsies. They're under the impression that a hardware scaler must first be a independent chip and secondly it must have the word 'scaler' laser etched to easily identify it to the press. The SCC is one of the most unsupported chips in the SDK. Sony rushed the firmware as well as the SDK and because of this they did not have enough time to include the full capabilities of the SCC in the SDK. You only need to view the presentation to understand the sheer power of this chip when it comes to audio and video processing.
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post #197 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 01:51 AM
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hopefully this helps with the reso issues.
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post #198 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truespeed View Post

The scalers are in the SCC. The SCC is a video and audio powerhouse and is the logical location for the scalers. Look at the PDF presentation from the Toshiba engineers for christ's sake!. They're right there in all their glory on Page 13 of the presentation and they're EVEN LABELED scalers.

Where can I read this pdf document, do you have a link available to it?
thx
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post #199 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 07:42 AM
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Here is a link to that presentation, hope this helps some people

http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc1.../HC17.S1T3.pdf

PAge 13 clearly shows scaling >
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post #200 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 07:49 AM
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Also found this on another forum, looks very promising



Quote:
Originally Posted by nonamer
http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc1.../HC17.S1T3.pdf

At 12.71mm by 12.71mm, that's not a cheap chip.

Found the following - looks like someone has measured this chip:-

PS3 VS Wii, Comparisons of Core LSI Chip Areas


Quote:
Nikkei Electronics has measured chip areas of microprocessors and graphics LSIs mounted on the main boards of the "PlayStation 3" (PS3) and "Wii." As we removed heat spreaders stuck on the upper surface of respective product packages

Quote:
The chip, which works as a south bridge in the PS3, measured 13 x 13 mm
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post #201 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

Truespeed,
honest question here. If it's so obvious that the chip is an SCC, and that the scalers are even labeled in a nice diagram, then why still the vigorous debate on all the various forums that the PS3 even has a hardware scaler?


I kinda agree. Obviously this doc is open knowledge. don't you think any of the game sites would have found this? What about Sony, why wouldn't they come and and put this controversy to rest.

Like, "I know that some hDTV owners aren't getting HD resolution with their PS3 (1080i), and we have a scaler, but have not enabled it yet."

Is Sony that dumb to not come out with this?
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post #202 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 09:17 AM
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ILCC - It looks like that chip has been identified as a "Super Companion Chip" - it's the equivalent of a Southbridge chip for the Cell processor...

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showth...=35549&page=13

Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveCircuitCity View Post


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post #203 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob79 View Post

Here is a link to that presentation, hope this helps some people

http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc1.../HC17.S1T3.pdf

PAge 13 clearly shows scaling >

The tear down reports and other analysis out there show pretty clearly that the CXD2973GB and the CXD4302GB are an IO Controller and the Super Companion Chip IO controller.

The scaling in the PDF you show, within the controller, are going to be completely minimal, without any advanced logic.

I think everyone is on a wild goose chase looking for a hardware chip for scaling on the PS3.

It's starting to look like there is no hardware scaler, but that Sony are developing a library that runs on a Cell processor, which the SDK will access.

If Sony REALLY had a hardware scaler, they would have come right and said "WE HAVE A HARDWARE SCALER. LOOK, THERE IT IS..." But instead they've just released a little SDK and kinda nudged a couple people and winked at it...

I think that they released it for PR value. If they really had a hardware scaler, then shouldn't they concentrate on USING it in their own DVD software to give users proper DVD upscaling, instead of worrying about releasing a SDK for developers to use a "half" a scaler?

If a developer thinks that they will get a full SDK for a whole scaler, why would they waste time developing on the "half-scaler"?

I think Sony needs to get the DVD software working before they drop hints for other people to make noise about a hardware scaler which doesn't exist.
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post #204 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

ILCC - It looks like that chip has been identified as a "Super Companion Chip" - it's the equivalent of a Southbridge chip for the Cell processor...

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showth...=35549&page=13


Wtf? Its a PS1 RISC 3000 for CHIP # 1
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post #205 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I think Sony needs to get the DVD software working before they drop hints for other people to make noise about a hardware scaler which doesn't exist.

maybe they don't want upscaled dvds...they need to show a big distinction between BD and DVD picture quality
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post #206 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 01:57 PM
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Bottom line, if there was full hardware scaling in the traditional sense of the word - we wouldn't be having this conversation and Sony would have had people working day and night to deal with any snafus. They may be able to address something and get some reasonable scaling to deal with the 1080i issue, but they would not be doing the contortionist antics at this stage in the game if there was an easy "oh, here is the scaler, doh!" solution. Nor would they be so round-about in the press about it.

Not that I don't want to see it fixed (I have a 1080i display) or think that the fix won't be adequate but merely, in my lifetime I've seen too many marketing dodges and damage control efforts not to recognize it when I see it. I'm certainly open to being wrong, and I'd rather I was, but the more I think about this, the longer it goes on, and the more "creative" and non-standard the solution, the less credible it gets.

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post #207 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 02:43 PM
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Some people here need to learn how to read or reread the thread.....
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post #208 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight View Post

Some people here need to learn how to read or reread the thread.....


guys..HELLO...reread Darknights posts #'s 50,65, 82, etc.

Let's assume for sake of sanity he is not BSing us.

There is a scaler.
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post #209 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight View Post

Some people here need to learn how to read or reread the thread.....

I realize that you have stated on multiple occasions that the PS3 does have a hardware scaler. Unfortunately, until some official information is released by Sony, people on this thread will continue to speculate (most likely incorrectly) that no hardware scaler exists.
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post #210 of 280 Old 02-03-2007, 03:18 PM
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I think that whoever was ultimately in charge of OK'ing the PS3's final hardware design should be fired.

It's is really a joke that the box cannot scale resolutions. It is alo a joke that they didn't get a better GPU. They wanted to go big with this box in terms of technolgy, and they did in most respects, but a couple of big obvious glaring weak links in the design are already limiting it.

If there was a scaler they would say it. There is no reason to believe they wouldn't. They have enough negative press, and if they could put to rest this situation they would.

If you think otherwise you are a wishful thinker.
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