Bitstream vs. Linear PCM - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

PCM. There is simply no advantage to having an AVR decode over the player.

Um, yeah there is. I dont know about all receivers, but my Yamaha RX-V2700 has a significantly different level when listening to DD/DTS through Bitstream (letting AVR decode) as opposed to PCM (letting PS3 decode and send to receiver). Overall the soundfield is noticeably better if I let the AVR do the decoding.

I switch back and forth depending on the audio track of the particular movie Im watching....but at least thats a nice feature of the PS3, you can change bitstream/PCM on the fly. My HD-A2 you have to stop the movie and go to the setup menu. Bah
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post #32 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davio View Post

Um, yeah there is. I dont know about all receivers, but my Yamaha RX-V2700 has a significantly different level when listening to DD/DTS through Bitstream (letting AVR decode) as opposed to PCM (letting PS3 decode and send to receiver). Overall the soundfield is noticeably better if I let the AVR do the decoding.

Uh, why? Not familiar with your AVR, but my Denon 4306 handles PCM streams like it should (a level 7 receiver if you hit the Amp/Receiver section and the sticky on top). Not saying you're not hearing it better but that would be a problem with the way your receiver handles PCM versus bitstream and anecdotal to owners of specific AVRs rather than an issue intrinsic to PCM versus bitstream.

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Originally Posted by Davio View Post

I switch back and forth depending on the audio track of the particular movie Im watching....but at least thats a nice feature of the PS3, you can change bitstream/PCM on the fly. My HD-A2 you have to stop the movie and go to the setup menu. Bah

Yeah. Can't recall ever changing audio midstream on the 360 / HDDVD but the PS3 is definitely much more versatile in changing on the fly. Not only audio but video/upscaling options, as well.

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post #33 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davio View Post

Um, yeah there is. I dont know about all receivers, but my Yamaha RX-V2700 has a significantly different level when listening to DD/DTS through Bitstream (letting AVR decode) as opposed to PCM (letting PS3 decode and send to receiver). Overall the soundfield is noticeably better if I let the AVR do the decoding.

I agree with you. I have a Yamaha HTR-6090 and the sound seems fuller and richer when I send it bitstream to the receiver instead of PCM. It logically doesn't make sense, but it is a noticeable difference.
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post #34 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

PCM. There is simply no advantage to having an AVR decode over the player.

On some receivers there is. If the receiver is doing everything "right", it should be exactly the same. But as we know, receivers have all sorts of bizarre behavior.

Having said that, an important feature for everyone buying a receiver right now should be that is handles PCM the exact same way as bitstream, because HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are going to be doing the decoding themselves and passing PCM.
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post #35 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

On some receivers there is. If the receiver is doing everything "right", it should be exactly the same. But as we know, receivers have all sorts of bizarre behavior.

Having said that, an important feature for everyone buying a receiver right now should be that is handles PCM the exact same way as bitstream, because HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are going to be doing the decoding themselves and passing PCM.

I haven't tested this out, but I have a theory as to why the bitstream sounds better then PCM from the PS3 on the Yamaha receivers. I believe the richer, fuller sound might be coming from additional processing done to the bitstream from the PS3. Yamaha has "Cinema DSP" programs which emphasize the surround sound coming from the Dolby Digital or DTS bitstreams, thus creating a fuller surround sound. If the data is coming via PCM, however, this additional processing might not apply.

I'm going to put in a movie and see if that is the difference.
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post #36 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 07:51 PM
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Are you Yamaha users using Surround Standard or Enhanced? Enhanced applies Cinema DSP on top of the decoded audio. I will try bitstream and compare for myself - Yamaha RX-V1600.
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post #37 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 08:12 PM
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Sure enough! The audio does seem more dynamic when processed by the Yamaha. The audio seems much more dynamic. There is a vast difference in volume level (which probably contributes to the perceptive difference), but it really does seem to be more dynamic with DD and DTS processed by the Yamaha vs PS3.
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post #38 of 666 Old 11-07-2007, 09:01 PM
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from what i understand, if your sending the digital DD or DTS signal as pcm your getting some conversion of the data correct? this would be why there is a difference in sound, as opposed to sending the pure digital signal straight to the receiver.........
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post #39 of 666 Old 11-08-2007, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

Sure enough! The audio does seem more dynamic when processed by the Yamaha. The audio seems much more dynamic. There is a vast difference in volume level (which probably contributes to the perceptive difference), but it really does seem to be more dynamic with DD and DTS processed by the Yamaha vs PS3.

Interesting, I wonder if the new Yamaha's have this same problem. There's no reason they can't do the same processing on PCM.

One note, forget volume level. It's not unusual for that to vary depending on the source or format. When comparing, try to adjust to the same volume level in the mid range and then compare the quality of the sound.
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post #40 of 666 Old 11-08-2007, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

When comparing, try to adjust to the same volume level in the mid range and then compare the quality of the sound.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. Bitstream seems to be more dynamic after level matching.

I am powering the surround speakers via the Yamaha and the front stage with an external amp, so I doubt I'm running out of headroom when level matching.

I can't explain why, but Bitstream seems to be the preferred choice [for me at least].
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post #41 of 666 Old 11-08-2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickaelmc View Post

wow.
Depending on which Thread I look at.. it's either bitstream is better or Linear PCM.

Can anyone give me the best answer?

I have a PS3. I use it for mostly regular DVD's...and right now just a few Blu-Ray titles.
I have a Denon AVR-4800 receiver. (It's about 7 or 8 years old now)
It doesn't have HDMI, so I have the audio hooked up via Optical wire.

Which should I have my settings at? Linear PCM or bitstream?

Bitstream for optical.

Only watches movies on celluloid in the DOP's personal home theater.
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post #42 of 666 Old 11-09-2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

I am sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. Bitstream seems to be more dynamic after level matching.

I am powering the surround speakers via the Yamaha and the front stage with an external amp, so I doubt I'm running out of headroom when level matching.

I can't explain why, but Bitstream seems to be the preferred choice [for me at least].

Yeah, definitely seems like your receiver does more with bitstream than with PCM. You might want to dig in the Receiver forum to see if there's any detailed info on what your receiver does or doesn't do to confirm what you are hearing (or to find out if there's anything you can adjust).
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post #43 of 666 Old 11-10-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heberjoe View Post

I agree with you. I have a Yamaha HTR-6090 and the sound seems fuller and richer when I send it bitstream to the receiver instead of PCM. It logically doesn't make sense, but it is a noticeable difference.

interesting. i also have htr-6090 and the sound seems to be clearer and louder when i use LPCM with PS3 instead of bitstream. this is when playing DTS-ES movie
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post #44 of 666 Old 11-11-2007, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

PCM. There is simply no advantage to having an AVR decode over the player.

Sure there is. Some better receivers may simply do a better job of it. I have the new Denon 4308CI and I believe it handles the decoding better than the PS3. In addition - I know what I'm getting. If I choose Dolby True HD in the disc menu the receiver confirms it. I also have the ability to take 5.1 to 7.1 when receiving Bitstream but not LPCM. I believe that when one has an advanced HDMI 1.3 receiver such as the Denon, higher end Onkyos etc that Bitstream is the way to go.
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post #45 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik View Post

Sure there is. Some better receivers may simply do a better job of it. I have the new Denon 4308CI and I believe it handles the decoding better than the PS3.

If I may ask, what makes you believe the Denon does a better job decoding than the PS3?
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post #46 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

If I may ask, what makes you believe the Denon does a better job decoding than the PS3?

A lot of people think this. But in most cases the difference is in the AVR not adding it's own BM or coloration (gain on Bass and Treble) to a PCM source coming in. If the AVR does the decoding, it can then add it's own BM, and coloration. Some people mistake this to be "better decoding by the AVR" because it's sounds "better" to them.
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post #47 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 11:21 AM
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Just purchased a PS3 and have it hooked up to a Yamaha V661 receiver w/ 5.1 channel speakers. I currently have my audio setting to Bitstream and I notice that it displays Dolby Digital or DTS on my front panel display. Also when using the Blu-Ray remote if I hit display when watching a movie it shows the sound settings as well. You mentioned that you can toggle audio midstream-how do you do this?
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post #48 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 12:01 PM
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I connected my PS3 to my Onkyo 905 last night via HDMI, and I could not find bitstream as an audio output option??? Is bitstream only available via toslink out?

Edit: disregard. I found the option in the manual under BD/DVD settings, and not under audio settings.
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post #49 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kingnothing123 View Post

You mentioned that you can toggle audio midstream-how do you do this?

Hit triangle and select A/V settings.
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post #50 of 666 Old 11-12-2007, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

If I may ask, what makes you believe the Denon does a better job decoding than the PS3?

My ears primarily.
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post #51 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik View Post

My ears primarily.


I disagree. Not with your ears, but with your comment about the receiver decoding better, until we know more about the codecs in each and how they differ if they do in terms of processing.

I have the PS3 and Denon 4308 as well. I have played with it both ways for DD and DTS and have SACD's etc. There is NO detectable difference. I use my kids and friends as guinea pigs to test this stuff as I feel it may remove any bias as well as anyone under the age of 18 hears better than we do and that is a fact. Since we can't really test HD audio as the PS3 only does PCM there is no way to tell the difference there, but there still shouldn't be any difference.
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post #52 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik View Post

My ears primarily.

Since the PS3 is unable at the moment to bitstream True HD, how can you compare the PS3 decoding True HD vs. your receiver?
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post #53 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 11:21 AM
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I just picked up Ratatouille on Blu-ray and notice on the back audio section that this film can out 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 Uncompressed 48bit/24 sound. How can I decode that on my receiver. I use Bitstream and have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my receiver. My receiver has these capabilities.
Thanks
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post #54 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingnothing123 View Post

I just picked up Ratatouille on Blu-ray and notice on the back audio section that this film can out 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 Uncompressed 48bit/24 sound. How can I decode that on my receiver. I use Bitstream and have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my receiver. My receiver has these capabilities.
Thanks

It's one or the other. Uncompressed doesnt need decoding by the AVR. You choose it from either the audio option on the BD or press triangle during playback and choose PCM track.
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post #55 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

I am sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. Bitstream seems to be more dynamic after level matching.

I am powering the surround speakers via the Yamaha and the front stage with an external amp, so I doubt I'm running out of headroom when level matching.

I can't explain why, but Bitstream seems to be the preferred choice [for me at least].

This is the same thing I am experiencing. I can hear that the pcm maybe could sound better, but it is unbalanced, and the bass is lacking.
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post #56 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Neilster View Post

This is the same thing I am experiencing. I can hear that the pcm maybe could sound better, but it is unbalanced, and the bass is lacking.

CLASSIC example of the AVR not adding it's own "coloration" to the PCM signal.
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post #57 of 666 Old 11-13-2007, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilster View Post

This is the same thing I am experiencing. I can hear that the pcm maybe could sound better, but it is unbalanced, and the bass is lacking.

One hypothesis I plan to explore:

The Yamaha RX-V1600 has two bass management memories AFAIK. One global memory, and a seperate one for the multi-channel analog input. I'm wondering if the multi-channel analog memory also applies to multi-channel PCM via HDMI. Or, if there is a third memory for multi-channel PCM via HDMI. Time to dust the SPL meter out and do some testing. I'll report back once I get the chance to test.
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post #58 of 666 Old 11-14-2007, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ndskyz View Post

CLASSIC example of the AVR not adding it's own "coloration" to the PCM signal.

Does your reply mean you think everything is working properly?
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post #59 of 666 Old 11-14-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingnothing123 View Post

I just picked up Ratatouille on Blu-ray and notice on the back audio section that this film can out 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 Uncompressed 48bit/24 sound. How can I decode that on my receiver. I use Bitstream and have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my receiver. My receiver has these capabilities.
Thanks

Set the HDMI audio out setting to PCM, not bitstream. The PS3 will then send the uncompressed 5.1 PCM to your receiver via HDMI.
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post #60 of 666 Old 11-14-2007, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MaynardJames View Post

Set the HDMI audio out setting to PCM, not bitstream. The PS3 will then send the uncompressed 5.1 PCM to your receiver via HDMI.

The PS3 will still send the uncompressed PCM in Bitstream mode as well. The only thing Bitstream will not send currently is Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.
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