Bitstream vs. Linear PCM - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 666 Old 05-29-2008, 01:28 PM
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I read this whole thread and to sum up what I've learned:

Using Onkyo 805 connected with HDMI.

For Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sources use LPCM to get lossless and uncompressed audio. This is because the PS3 can't pass these uncompressed via bitstream.

For all other formats like DD, DTS, DD EX, DD Plus, DTS-ES Discrete, DTS-Matrix and DTS HD High Resolution use bitstream. These will theoretically sound the same whether you use LPCM or bitsream. However last night we watched Rambo on DVD with a Dolby Digital EX soundtrack. I had the PS3 on LPCM and it just didn't sound very loud or dinamic. The gun shouts where not loud at all. After I switched to bitstream everything came to life. The guns and explotions where loud. There was a night and day difference. I say use bitsream for these formats.

Am I correct with my accessment?
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post #182 of 666 Old 05-29-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wal-dog View Post

However last night we watched Rambo on DVD with a Dolby Digital EX soundtrack. I had the PS3 on LPCM and it just didn't sound very loud or dinamic. The gun shouts where not loud at all. After I switched to bitstream everything came to life. The guns and explotions where loud. There was a night and day difference. I say use bitsream for these formats.

Am I correct with my accessment?

You may just be noticing the difference in loudness. The PS3's LPCM output is substantially quieter than its bitstream output.

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post #183 of 666 Old 05-29-2008, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wal-dog View Post

I read this whole thread and to sum up what I've learned:

Using Onkyo 805 connected with HDMI.

For Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sources use LPCM to get lossless and uncompressed audio. This is because the PS3 can't pass these uncompressed via bitstream.

For all other formats like DD, DTS, DD EX, DD Plus, DTS-ES Discrete, DTS-Matrix and DTS HD High Resolution use bitstream. These will theoretically sound the same whether you use LPCM or bitsream. However last night we watched Rambo on DVD with a Dolby Digital EX soundtrack. I had the PS3 on LPCM and it just didn't sound very loud or dinamic. The gun shouts where not loud at all. After I switched to bitstream everything came to life. The guns and explotions where loud. There was a night and day difference. I say use bitsream for these formats.

Am I correct with my accessment?

I would say you are correct because I think DD and DTS signals have to be decoded a certain way that only your receiver can do, and in most cases the receiver can only do that with a bitstream input. When I LCPM a DVD, my LFE never sounds as good as if I bitstream. Someone said earlier it's in the DD and DTS decoding "algorithms" that the PS3 cannot do, only your receiver.

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post #184 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wal-dog View Post

I read this whole thread and to sum up what I've learned:

Using Onkyo 805 connected with HDMI.

For Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sources use LPCM to get lossless and uncompressed audio. This is because the PS3 can't pass these uncompressed via bitstream.

For all other formats like DD, DTS, DD EX, DD Plus, DTS-ES Discrete, DTS-Matrix and DTS HD High Resolution use bitstream. These will theoretically sound the same whether you use LPCM or bitsream. However last night we watched Rambo on DVD with a Dolby Digital EX soundtrack. I had the PS3 on LPCM and it just didn't sound very loud or dinamic. The gun shouts where not loud at all. After I switched to bitstream everything came to life. The guns and explotions where loud. There was a night and day difference. I say use bitsream for these formats.

Am I correct with my accessment?

The ps3 will convert standard DD and DTS to MCPCM juts fine. Under the PS3 AV settings turn Dynamic Range Control to OFF, under the PS3 Volume Control Settings give it a boost to +1 or +2 and it will sound about the same level as your receiver doing the decoding then. What it will not do is properly decode standard DD or DTS 6.1 flagged soundtracks, it will output them as 5.1 MCPCM as well. So if you have a 6.1 setup then I would bitstream these soundtracks.
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post #185 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Ruddle View Post

Cmon, give the guy a break :-) I assume he is not talking about something from the nineties, but means PLiXII and DTS NEO over HDMI, Marantz has both of these formats, and they also have circle. All three of the just mentioned can matrix up to 7.1, from a PCM data path from the player (PS3). From HDMI 1.1 you have the eight channels for PCM, which makes this special. You r correct about the optical, that's why you would never try to produce PCM accross this link, due to the two channel limitations, but instead bit-stream.

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Originally Posted by jaymerkramer View Post

Plain and simple, "you can't bistream mulit-channel lossless via optical" cant do it no way no how. If you are using optical then set the ps3 to bistream and watch the movies with the Dolby Digital and DTS lossy tracks. They still sound great. Why would you want to send 2 channel PCM Lossless to your receiver and then have Dolby Pro Logic 2 or DTS Neo guess at what channels to send the info to? Pro Logic 2 whas made to create discrete channels out of Dolby Pro Logic which did not have discreet Rear Left and Right or Subwoofer channels.


Guys!!! thank you for your concern... but yes I have it set to LPCM, and have tried both PCM and BITSTREAM and i do get a better sound of LPCM. I trust my receiver can and will do a great job of replicating the sound. yes the PCM sound is a bit 'low' but all I have done is to turn the volume level up in the 'triangle menu' to 2, this takes care of the 'low sound'.

As any person that likes music, and movies, I am all about more the SOUND QUALITY, than SOUND LOUDNESS. if I want loud sound then I would turn every channel and setting as lowd as I can and then I would crank the volume. I rather my reciver grab an uncompressed source like LPCM (albeit 2CH) and code it to its own format be it DD PLIIx or DISCRETE 7.1 NEO:6 (YES I SAID NEO) I can have my receiver not compress the signal at all. If you watched I am Legend the scene where he is saying good bye to his wife and daughter in the chopper the sound and quality of PCM was by far way better. In PCM, when the chopper blades where gaining power and getting ready to take off not only was the sound awesome but I could actually feel the pulse of the blade cutting the air, as if the chopper was right infront of me, when played back in BITSTREAM it was just loud noise... Anyhow I hope to keep hearing from you...

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post #186 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Ruddle View Post

Cmon, give the guy a break :-) I assume he is not talking about something from the nineties, but means PLiXII and DTS NEO over HDMI, Marantz has both of these formats, and they also have circle. All three of the just mentioned can matrix up to 7.1, from a PCM data path from the player (PS3). From HDMI 1.1 you have the eight channels for PCM, which makes this special. You r correct about the optical, that's why you would never try to produce PCM accross this link, due to the two channel limitations, but instead bit-stream.

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Originally Posted by jaymerkramer View Post

Plain and simple, "you can't bistream mulit-channel lossless via optical" cant do it no way no how. If you are using optical then set the ps3 to bistream and watch the movies with the Dolby Digital and DTS lossy tracks. They still sound great. Why would you want to send 2 channel PCM Lossless to your receiver and then have Dolby Pro Logic 2 or DTS Neo guess at what channels to send the info to? Pro Logic 2 whas made to create discrete channels out of Dolby Pro Logic which did not have discreet Rear Left and Right or Subwoofer channels.


Guys!!! thank you for your concern... but yes I have it set to LPCM, and have tried both PCM and BITSTREAM and i do get a better sound of LPCM. I trust my receiver can and will do a great job of replicating the sound. yes the PCM sound is a bit 'low' but all I have done is to turn the volume level up in the 'triangle menu' to 2, this takes care of the 'low sound'.

As any person that likes music, and movies, I am all about more the SOUND QUALITY, than SOUND LOUDNESS. if I want loud sound then I would turn every channel and setting as lowd as I can and then I would crank the volume. I rather my reciver grab an uncompressed source like LPCM (albeit 2CH) and code it to its own format be it DD PLIIx or DISCRETE 7.1 NEO:6 (YES I SAID NEO) I can have my receiver not compress the signal at all. If you watched I am Legend the scene where he is saying good bye to his wife and daughter in the chopper the sound and quality of PCM was by far way better. In PCM, when the chopper blades where gaining power and getting ready to take off not only was the sound awesome but I could actually feel the pulse of the blade cutting the air, as if the chopper was right infront of me, when played back in BITSTREAM it was just loud noise... Anyhow I hope to keep hearing from you...
Plain and simple, "you can't bistream mulit-channel lossless via optical" cant do it no way no how.Jaymaker you are right about this but the signal is still uncompressed that is why I set to LPCM...



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post #187 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 10:46 AM
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Mack and Jay:::
Maybe you can help me a bit more, when I choose BITSTREAM from the PS3 settings, and from the 5.1 true DDHD from the disc my receiver says it's getting 5.1 DD but I'm guessing this is not true DD HD of course? Am I wrong, is this just a DD signal and that's it?

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post #188 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 11:18 AM
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2. Your high-def TV and high-def DVD player have HDMI; your AV receiver doesn't.

Use a HDMI connection between TV and player, for full high-definition video. Then, use a coaxial digital audio connection between player and receiver. Remember: because movies and music with DTS-HD encoded content contain a DTS Digital Surround core, your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. So, you're still going to get higher quality sound than you're used to hearing.

this quote is from DTS.COM

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post #189 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBert View Post

Mack and Jay:::
Maybe you can help me a bit more, when I choose BITSTREAM from the PS3 settings, and from the 5.1 true DDHD from the disc my receiver says it's getting 5.1 DD but I'm guessing this is not true DD HD of course? Am I wrong, is this just a DD signal and that's it?

If you select BITSTREAM within the PS3 Menu Dolby True-HD will default to DD. In order to get Dolby True-HD you must set your PS3 to LPCM & also make sure your receiver is outputting it in MC PCM. If you receiver is outputting in MC PCM then you are hearing Dolby True-HD. Many people get confused by this, but they shouldn't. Always remember the PS3 is doing the decoding internally not the receiver, hence why the receiver will display MC PCM
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post #190 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBert View Post

2. Your high-def TV and high-def DVD player have HDMI; your AV receiver doesn't.

Use a HDMI connection between TV and player, for full high-definition video. Then, use a coaxial digital audio connection between player and receiver. Remember: because movies and music with DTS-HD encoded content contain a DTS Digital Surround core, your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. So, you're still going to get higher quality sound than you're used to hearing.

this quote is from DTS.COM

This is correct for receivers without HDMI inputs capable of MCPCM, The DTS lossy core sounds pretty damn good to. The DTS Core is output at 1.5meg and the Lossy Dolby Digital found on Bluray is at 640k. If your reciever does not have HDMI then you must set the PS3 to Bitstream to reap the benefits of these.
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post #191 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imdjenk View Post

I would say you are correct because I think DD and DTS signals have to be decoded a certain way that only your receiver can do, and in most cases the receiver can only do that with a bitstream input. When I LCPM a DVD, my LFE never sounds as good as if I bitstream. Someone said earlier it's in the DD and DTS decoding "algorithms" that the PS3 cannot do, only your receiver.

Utter nonsense.

Except for the 6.1 versions of DD and DTS, LPCM and bitstream will be exactly the same other than volume level (turn the knob to fix this, it's easy).
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post #192 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Utter nonsense.

Except for the 6.1 versions of DD and DTS, LPCM and bitstream will be exactly the same other than volume level (turn the knob to fix this, it's easy).

Wow this thread is confusing . So, help me out here please. What is the advantage of sending 5.1 DD or DTS over HDMI in LCPM vs. bitstream? I don't know if its just me but just "turning the knob" makes it louder but not as dynamic as bitstream. If there is no advantage then I might as well keep it bitstream so I can see the pretty lights on my AVR on! (J/K)

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post #193 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imdjenk View Post

Wow this thread is confusing . So, help me out here please. What is the advantage of sending 5.1 DD or DTS over HDMI in LCPM vs. bitstream? I don't know if its just me but just "turning the knob" makes it louder but not as dynamic as bitstream. If there is no advantage then I might as well keep it bitstream so I can see the pretty lights on my AVR on! (J/K)

There is no advantage of sending lossy DD and DTS over HDMI via LCPM. The problem is to get the Dolby TruHD and DTS-HDMA tracks to play lossless, you must set your PS3 to PCM. I really don't feel like changing my audio settings on the PS3 every time I switch from watching Bluray to DVD. The good thing is you don't have to beacause the PS3 will decode it all just fine and send it via PCM. Much easier for the wife I don't have to explain to her that she has to change from PCM to Bitstream depending on the disc. If using an optical cable for your audio connection you want to set it to bitstream though or you WILL NOT GET TRUE MULITCHANNEL AUDIO.
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post #194 of 666 Old 05-30-2008, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jaymerkramer View Post

There is no advantage of sending lossy DD and DTS over HDMI via LCPM. The problem is to get the Dolby TruHD and DTS-HDMA tracks to play lossless, you must set your PS3 to PCM. I really don't feel like changing my audio settings on the PS3 every time I switch from watching Bluray to DVD. The good thing is you don't have to beacause the PS3 will decode it all just fine and send it via PCM. Much easier for the wife I don't have to explain to her that she has to change from PCM to Bitstream depending on the disc. If using an optical cable for your audio connection you want to set it to bitstream though or you WILL NOT GET TRUE MULITCHANNEL AUDIO.

That is exactly how I understood it. I only switch mine to PCM with dtsma or dthd, just one button push really. I still think lossy DD and DTS sound better over bitstream, not sure of the technical reason for that.

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post #195 of 666 Old 06-02-2008, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imdjenk View Post

That is exactly how I understood it. I only switch mine to PCM with dtsma or dthd, just one button push really. I still think lossy DD and DTS sound better over bitstream, not sure of the technical reason for that.

Any differences you are hearing, for good or bad, are all due to what your receiver is doing. This may be something you can control in your receiver or something that can't be changed. With my receiver (Integra 8.8) it sounds identical.
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post #196 of 666 Old 06-02-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imdjenk View Post

That is exactly how I understood it. I only switch mine to PCM with dtsma or dthd, just one button push really. I still think lossy DD and DTS sound better over bitstream, not sure of the technical reason for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Any differences you are hearing, for good or bad, are all due to what your receiver is doing. This may be something you can control in your receiver or something that can't be changed. With my receiver (Integra 8.8) it sounds identical.

I totally agree with you guys about the whole difference of BIT and PCM. it sounds just the same on my receiver, however, and I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I leave my PS3 on PCM, and I get awesome results. I have optical and my reciver grabs that 2CH uncompresed signal and matrix it to 7.1 channels, am I getting HD sound no, but I didnt notice any difference between DTS or DD on bitstream or pcm over optical. last night I watched The Golden Compass which is DTS HD 7.1 lossless and when I left it on PCM the signal was coming between 5.5 and 7.5 mbps. when I switched to Bitstream it was a constant 1.5mbps. I also noticed that on PCM my AVR said (decoded as) DTS + NEO:6 when on Bitstream it only said DTS. dont forget that NEO:6 is the same as DTS ES but specificaly for 2CH sources. Any receiver with out DTS ES would not play NEO:6 signals. I know NEO:6 is something from the 'nineties' but it works... if its not broken dont fix it.

Anyhow until next time

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post #197 of 666 Old 06-02-2008, 06:17 PM
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I did some expiramenting today and and I am now convinced that LPCM is the way to go.

First on the SD DVD War of the Worlds' DTS soundtrack there was no noticable differance between bitstream and LPCM. I took the advice of jaymerkramer and turned dynamic range off and turned the volume on the PS3 to +1. Could not tell a differance. Note: When bitsteaming the volume control on PS3 does not change the volume, only when using LPCM.

On the BD version of 300 there are 3 English soundracks. DD 5.1, DD TrueHD 5.1 and Linear PCM 5.1. Clearly LPCM was better on the DD TrueHD and Linear PCM soundracks. Could not tell a differance with the regular Dolby Digital. Note: When Linear PCM 5.1 is played you cannot use bitstream and Multichannel is automatically used.

I thought DD TueHd was the best but the Linear PCM track had higher Mbps numbers so is it better? It definitly sounded the best.
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post #198 of 666 Old 06-03-2008, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Any differences you are hearing, for good or bad, are all due to what your receiver is doing. This may be something you can control in your receiver or something that can't be changed. With my receiver (Integra 8.8) it sounds identical.

BINGO! What I've been saying for the past 9 or 10 MONTHS. People hear the difference between the PS3 LPCM decoding and the AVR Bitstream, and hear the AVR as LOUDER (not better) And they come to the grand conclusion that the PS3 is doing a crappy job of decoding. ANY differenece you hear between LPCM and Bitstream can be attributed to the AVR coloring the signal AFTER decoding and processing.
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post #199 of 666 Old 06-03-2008, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ndskyz View Post

BINGO! What I've been saying for the past 9 or 10 MONTHS. People hear the difference between the PS3 LPCM decoding and the AVR Bitstream, and hear the AVR as LOUDER (not better) And they come to the grand conclusion that the PS3 is doing a crappy job of decoding. ANY differenece you hear between LPCM and Bitstream can be attributed to the AVR coloring the signal AFTER decoding and processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBert View Post

Guys!!! thank you for your concern... but yes I have it set to LPCM, and have tried both PCM and BITSTREAM and i do get a better sound of LPCM. I trust my receiver can and will do a great job of replicating the sound. yes the PCM sound is a bit 'low' but all I have done is to turn the volume level up in the 'triangle menu' to 2, this takes care of the 'low sound'.

As any person that likes music, and movies, I am all about more the SOUND QUALITY, than SOUND LOUDNESS. if I want loud sound then I would turn every channel and setting as lowd as I can and then I would crank the volume. I rather my reciver grab an uncompressed source like LPCM (albeit 2CH) and code it to its own format be it DD PLIIx or DISCRETE 7.1 NEO:6 (YES I SAID NEO) I can have my receiver not compress the signal at all. If you watched I am Legend the scene where he is saying good bye to his wife and daughter in the chopper the sound and quality of PCM was by far way better. In PCM, when the chopper blades where gaining power and getting ready to take off not only was the sound awesome but I could actually feel the pulse of the blade cutting the air, as if the chopper was right infront of me, when played back in BITSTREAM it was just loud noise... Anyhow I hope to keep hearing from you...
Plain and simple, "you can't bistream mulit-channel lossless via optical" cant do it no way no how.Jaymaker you are right about this but the signal is still uncompressed that is why I set to LPCM...



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post #200 of 666 Old 06-03-2008, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

You'll get the multichannel PCM tracks over HDMI even when HDMI is set to bitstream on the PS3. However, you lose sounds mixed and overlayed by the PS3 (e.g., menu sounds seen in numerous BD titles currently available) when listening to DD or DTS on BDs.

With regards to legacy DD and DTS, there is no quality difference between the PCM and bitstream settings with my Denon AVR-4306. For me, setting the PS3 to decode DD or DTS results in the same quality as when letting my receiver directly handle the lossy codecs. I tested this by using numerous movie scenes that strongly engage all channels.

I have my PS3 set to PCM, because this way my Denon applies its AL24 processing regardless of what I'm listening to, and I always get sounds mixed by the PS3 itself.

A quick question ? How is that that you loose "sounds mixed and overlayed by the PS3 (e.g., menu sounds seen in numerous BD titles currently available) when listening to DD or DTS on BDs." and what are these sounds to begin with ? How are they created - are they on the original BD and if so, why would they not be heard when using bitstream option as well ?

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post #201 of 666 Old 06-03-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixie Flatline View Post

The question is really about audio output modes on the PS3, not the audio formats on the disc. The audio track on the disc is either Linear PCM or a compressed format (which can be lossy, like DD/DTS, or lossless, like DD TrueHD or DTS-MA).

If you set the PS3 to output bitstream, then it will send exactly what's on the disc without modifying it at all, and it's up to your receiver to decode whatever needs decoding. If the PS3 is set to output PCM, then it will decode compressed formats into Linear PCM and send that LPCM stream to the receiver.

When you've selected a PCM soundtrack from the disc, then the PS3 will be sending PCM to the receiver regardless of the setting. However, as mentioned above, if the PS3 is set to bitstream then it won't be able to make any changes to the audio stream, such as mixing in menu sounds.

At this point, there's really no reason to select bitstream output on the PS3 unless your receiver has problems receiving multichannel PCM via HDMI. The PS3 is perfectly capable of decoding any of the available audio formats except DTS-MA (which is currently neither decoded nor passed as bitstream), and you get the ability for it to mix in additional audio.

The BD format is really designed for the player to do audio decoding anyway; the ability to pass the HD audio formats (DD TrueHD and DTS-MA) as bitstream to the receiver, which requires HDMI 1.3, is something that was demanded by the receiver manufacturers so that they could badge their receivers as "True-HD Capable" and "DTS-MA Capable". In reality, any receiver that can receive multichannel PCM over HDMI is capable of playing these formats, as long as the player does the decoding, which is what they're designed to do.

Question about DTS-HD Master Audio (via bitstream) vs. LPCM

Hello Dixie Flatline - I wonder if you help explaining this for me...

I appreciate your help in advance but me and my brother-in-law have an ongpoing debate and we were wondering if good and knowledgable folks from AVS forum, could help us with it.

Here is the deal, I have Samsung BD-1400 and my brother-in-law has a Sony BDP-300.
When we play a Blu Ray disc that is mastered in DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 in our respective players, I enable bitstream on Sammie 1400 and push onto Denon AVR-988 and DTS-HD Master audio comes on in its full glory as that Denon reciever decodes the bitstream and displays DTS-HD Master audio on its front pannel. I believe this is the best way to get full DTS-HD Master audio from my setup.

Now the question that started this whole debate between us, is as follows: when my brother in-law plays the same disc that is mastered in DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 on his Sony-BDP300 he has 2 options to choose on that player: bitstream and lpcm

1) when he chooses bitstream, we both think that the most he gets from that DTS-HD Master Audio track id core only DTS at 1.5Mbs ?? This is a lossy DTS codec that is inferior to full DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 Can someone confirm that so we know that our assumption is valid ?

2) Now , onto the LPCM option - the whole source of this debate. My brother in-law is convinced that when he switches to LPCM option on his Sony-BDP300 Blu Ray player, he gets a much better sounding soundtrack (his reciever displays MPCM) and he is convinced that the quality of sound that he is getting via LPCM is identical to DTS-HD Master Audio I am getting on my Samsung 1400 when I use bitstream option.

Here are our questions:

1) Is that possible and if so how does this work ?

2) Why is the quality of the sound , sounds so much better with LPCM option vs. Bitsream on his Sony BDP-300 ?

3) What kind of the bit rates (for audio) will there be when LPCM is chosen ?

4) I thought that the only way to get the full DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 was to either use on board decoding within Blu Ray player or via bitstream to capable reciever such as Denon AVR 988 > Could this be Sony best kept secret and if so , why would they keeep it quiet about this potentially exciting feature ?

Thanks very much for listening and answering

P.S> My brother-in-law had a Yamaha reciever V1800 and he is using HDMI from Sony BD player.

Regards,
Nikonowski
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post #202 of 666 Old 06-03-2008, 03:45 PM
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I completely disagree with several of you claiming Bitstream and LPCM sound or should sound the same. For most DD/DTS standard tracks on BD or DVD bitstream is better, not always, but most of the time. The LFE and bass are some times, not all but sometimes lacking when playing DD/DTS back LPCM. I used to listen to everything LPCM, but not anymore. I reserve LPCM for games that require it or that sound no different and for DTS MA and Tru HD. If as some claim DTS/DD are being colored by the receiver that is because that is how those compressed codecs are supposed to sound when bitstreamed and decoded by your receiver. If as I say some DD/DTS tracks don't sound as good, it is because they are not IMO being properly decoded by the PS3 prior to being passed onto the receiver in LPCM mode. There is also the issue of some audio tracks of varying in transfer quality when put onto disc by the audio engineers.

And it is not because the PS3 is doing a "crappy" job of decoding. Again, IMO opinion it is because some of those tracks are simply better decoded by the receiver. It also isn't just a volume issue. I have heard some DD/DTS tracks that have actually sounded better when sent LPCM.
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post #203 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

If as some claim DTS/DD are being colored by the receiver that is because that is how those compressed codecs are supposed to sound when bitstreamed and decoded by your receiver..

Not true at all.. By your definition a bitstreamed DD/DTS track should sound the same on ALL AVR's, beacause they are being bitstreamed, and this is JUST NOT TRUE. Every AVR adds it's own color to the sound AFTER decoding. Onkyo's are known to be warm (bass heavy) were as Yamaha's are know to be bright etc. There is no way the codecs know how there are "supposed to sound" They are what they are, and the coloration is added by the AVR. This coloration is dependent on the AVR and has nothing to do with the decoding.
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post #204 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BertBert View Post

I totally agree with you guys about the whole difference of BIT and PCM. it sounds just the same on my receiver, however, and I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I leave my PS3 on PCM, and I get awesome results. I have optical and my reciver grabs that 2CH uncompresed signal and matrix it to 7.1 channels, am I getting HD sound no, but I didnt notice any difference between DTS or DD on bitstream or pcm over optical. last night I watched The Golden Compass which is DTS HD 7.1 lossless and when I left it on PCM the signal was coming between 5.5 and 7.5 mbps. when I switched to Bitstream it was a constant 1.5mbps. I also noticed that on PCM my AVR said (decoded as) DTS + NEO:6 when on Bitstream it only said DTS. dont forget that NEO:6 is the same as DTS ES but specificaly for 2CH sources. Any receiver with out DTS ES would not play NEO:6 signals. I know NEO:6 is something from the 'nineties' but it works... if its not broken dont fix it.

Anyhow until next time

BertBert, just because the PS3 Display said it was outputting audio @ 5.5-7.5 mpbs via DTS HD doesn't mean that's what your receiver was also outputting. The most mpbs an optical cable could allow is up to 1.5 mpbs. An optical cable doesn't have enough bandwidth that's why you didn't hear a difference when you switch from BIT to PCM.
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post #205 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Question about DTS-HD Master Audio (via bitstream) vs. LPCM

Hello Dixie Flatline - I wonder if you help explaining this for me...

I appreciate your help in advance but me and my brother-in-law have an ongpoing debate and we were wondering if good and knowledgable folks from AVS forum, could help us with it.

Here is the deal, I have Samsung BD-1400 and my brother-in-law has a Sony BDP-300.
When we play a Blu Ray disc that is mastered in DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 in our respective players, I enable bitstream on Sammie 1400 and push onto Denon AVR-988 and DTS-HD Master audio comes on in its full glory as that Denon reciever decodes the bitstream and displays DTS-HD Master audio on its front pannel. I believe this is the best way to get full DTS-HD Master audio from my setup.

Now the question that started this whole debate between us, is as follows: when my brother in-law plays the same disc that is mastered in DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 on his Sony-BDP300 he has 2 options to choose on that player: bitstream and lpcm

1) when he chooses bitstream, we both think that the most he gets from that DTS-HD Master Audio track id core only DTS at 1.5Mbs ?? This is a lossy DTS codec that is inferior to full DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 Can someone confirm that so we know that our assumption is valid ?

2) Now , onto the LPCM option - the whole source of this debate. My brother in-law is convinced that when he switches to LPCM option on his Sony-BDP300 Blu Ray player, he gets a much better sounding soundtrack (his reciever displays MPCM) and he is convinced that the quality of sound that he is getting via LPCM is identical to DTS-HD Master Audio I am getting on my Samsung 1400 when I use bitstream option.

Here are our questions:

1) Is that possible and if so how does this work ?

2) Why is the quality of the sound , sounds so much better with LPCM option vs. Bitsream on his Sony BDP-300 ?

3) What kind of the bit rates (for audio) will there be when LPCM is chosen ?

4) I thought that the only way to get the full DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 was to either use on board decoding within Blu Ray player or via bitstream to capable reciever such as Denon AVR 988 > Could this be Sony best kept secret and if so , why would they keep it quiet about this potentially exciting feature ?

Thanks very much for listening and answering

P.S> My brother-in-law had a Yamaha reciever V1800 and he is using HDMI from Sony BD player.

Regards,
Nikonowski

Question 1:
The SONY BDP-300 doesn't offer DTS-MA. It outputs DTS-MA in DTS Core

Question 2
It could be due to the player decoding the audio instead of the receiver

Question 3

You will get the full bitrate of any BD Movie that offers Advance Audio Codec (Uncompressed 5.1, Dolby True-HD, but not DTS-MA)


Question 4
It's not a secret. It's been known forever that any BD Player that doesn't BITSTREAM the Advance Audio Codecs will internally decode them.
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post #206 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFJ 96 View Post

Question 1:
He is correct. He is getting the same exact sound as you are. The difference is his player is decoding the audio internally (think of the audio as an unzipped file) & unzipping it as LPCM. Compared to your receiver which is doing the decoding.

Question 2
See answer-1. (His player is decoding the sound)

Question 3

You will get the full bitrate of any BD Movie that offers Advance Audio Codec (Uncompressed 5.1, Dolby True-HD or DTS-MA)


Question 4
It's not a secret. It's been known forever that any BD Player that doesn't BITSTREAM the Advance Audio Codecs will internally decode them.

Except I don't think the Sony 300 can decode DTS-HD MA, so h's only getting the core DTS.
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post #207 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Except I don't think the Sony 300 can decode DTS-HD MA, so h's only getting the core DTS.

You are correct Jay. Thanks for the clarification
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post #208 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BFJ 96 View Post

You are correct Jay. Thanks for the clarification

Thanks all, I still do not understand why he feels that DTS sound that he is outputing via LPCM sounds so much better then via bitsream - they should be all the same: he should be getting excatly the same quality: lossy DTS core 1.5 Mbs stream. Which is a lot lower (and sounding worse) than HD-DTS Master Audio - am I not correct ?

I don't buy that there is so much difference (in his opinion) in processing this signal either through player decoding it internally or reciever decoding it via bitstream. The result is still lossy DTS core 1.5 Mbs stream either way and should sound the same !!! What gives ?

One other thing that he mentiones is that he does not get menu sounds with bitsream option but gets them with LPCM - does anyone know why is that ?

By the way, his BD player is actually Sony -BDP-S1 and not BDP-300 as I misstated before. Sorry about that. I think overall that doesn't make any difference because niether player can decode DTS-HD Master Audio internally - is that safe assumption ?

Thanks for your valuable feedback.
Nikonowski
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post #209 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BFJ 96 View Post

You are correct Jay. Thanks for the clarification

Thanks! So to summarize - he is only able to get lossy DTS core @ 1.5Mbs from any 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio that he plays - is that correct ?

There is no secret way for him to get the full 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio from his Sony BDP-S1 or Sony BDP-300 player - is there ?

Nikonowski
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post #210 of 666 Old 06-04-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ndskyz View Post

Not true at all.. By your definition a bitstreamed DD/DTS track should sound the same on ALL AVR's, beacause they are being bitstreamed, and this is JUST NOT TRUE. Every AVR adds it's own color to the sound AFTER decoding. Onkyo's are known to be warm (bass heavy) were as Yamaha's are know to be bright etc. There is no way the codecs know how there are "supposed to sound" They are what they are, and the coloration is added by the AVR. This coloration is dependent on the AVR and has nothing to do with the decoding.

I never said that at all. Of course they are going to sound different on different AVR's. I was comparing movie to movie, not AVR TO AVR. None of that changes the facts of what I said about Bitstream vs. LPCM.
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