RGB [Full] Explained with Pics - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Source: http://www.gameswank.com/content/view/126/1/

There have been a number of features added in the PS3's 1.80 firmware update; many of which have been overlooked. The PS3 now supports Super-White and x.v.Color output, playing Blu-ray movies at 24Hz, and now an RGB Full Range option is enabled for those with HDTV's that support it. This latter option increases the range of colours in PS3 playback, making both films and movies have a much wider range of colour. Continue to see the results for when RGB Full Range is enabled, and how to see if your TV supports it.

If [Full] is set when using a TV that supports RGB full range (only over HDMI), the picture quality of the game or video may be improved, increasing the colour spectrum from 16 to 235, to 0 to 255. Not all HDTV's will support this, however, but if your television does then blacks will look blacker than ever and see some details which may have been missing before.

Here is a comparison picture to show the difference (please ignore the lines on the second image, this is not a result of RGB Full). Roll over the Uncharted: Drake's Fortune image to see the results of RGB Full (credit to PSN: Violater):












Thus, the results are noticable and can bring a new colour depth to your experiences with the PS3. However, it is not optimal for all televisions and can distort colours. This means you will have to experiment with your HDTV's brightness and contrast settings. Nonetheless, how can you discover whether your HDTV supports this new RGB Full option?

Here is a test to find out (credit goes to andrewfree of neogaf):

First, save this image, and put it on your PS3 via a memory card or some other method:

http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

With the option set to limited, adjust the brightness control on your TV until you can see most/all of the boxes. There are 12 boxes there, but you might not be able to see them all. You should hopefully be able to see at least 9/10 of them.

Now switch it over to Full range. Can you still see all the boxes? It's very likely that you will only see a full black screen now if you're using a HDTV rather than a DVI monitor.

If you can turn up the brightness control and see the same number of boxes again, then it seems your display does support the full range. If it stays black, or you can't see as many boxes as before, your TV does not support the full range option and you should be using limited.

So try it out, but it should noted that most HDTV's should have RGB set to limited.
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post #2 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 11:17 AM
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No one is doubting what RGB Full does... the issue is that it does what it does inconsistently.

BTW, some of those pics do show noticeable black crush... almost no shadow detail in the dark areas.
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post #3 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 11:37 AM
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This feature seems to increase saturation and contrast.

I think it's a direct response to those claimed their games looked "washed out" on the PS3.
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post #4 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 11:40 AM
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my ps3 wont recognize the .jpg file when i try to transfer it via memory stick or usb drive
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post #5 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 12:06 PM
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I'm pretty sure those pictures have nothing to do with xvYCC. The only source right now that supports it is AVCHD. And i'm pretty sure the only tv's that support hdmi 1.3 and xvYCC right now, although there may be some that have just came out, are the sammys. Also, the left side of your pics seem to be lacking blacks, the right side is how it should look regularly. I have a sammy 4661, and it seems that the RGB Full setting is being reset to limited before any game or bluray starts playing. There's obviously a bug that needs to be fixed, but i will say that this new update is still great overall.

UPDATE: for some reason, the Full setting did seem to stick for the Uncharted trailer, so far i think its the only thing ive noticed it work on, didnt do much, but i could tell. I'll keep testing things, i tried watching Crank and it didnt change anything, and i think NBA2k7 didnt change either.

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post #6 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 12:45 PM
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Better check out the 'real deal' on RGB FULL from Stacey Spears in this thread (post #115) .
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10630977


--- Jason
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post #7 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 01:51 PM
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whats the best to set at? Output - YCbCr
or rgb limited then?
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post #8 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 06:03 PM
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So RGB Full still crushes blacks right? That's what I noticed on my display.
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post #9 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 06:10 PM
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I noticed the same on my samsung. But the samsung already has an option for normal and low hdmi level, so it looks like changing rgb to full makes it double as dark.

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post #10 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubzilla06 View Post

whats the best to set at? Output - YCbCr
or rgb limited then?

well, if i'm reading him/her correctly, according to sspears, it would be best to set BD/DVD HDMI output to YCbCr, set RGB to Limited and enable YCbCr super-white.

unfortunately for me, i guess my set does not support YCbCr over HDMI/DVI as my image goes pink when i do so. so for me, i'm going to settle for output=RGB and RGB=Limited.
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post #11 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

unfortunately for me, i guess my set does not support YCbCr over HDMI/DVI as my image goes pink when i do so. so for me, i'm going to settle for output=RGB and RGB=Limited.

I have kind of the opposite issue with my projector, as I get a green screen using RGB.
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post #12 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Better check out the 'real deal' on RGB FULL from Stacey Spears in this thread (post #115) .
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10630977

--- Jason

That's not entirely correct. BTB will not be passed if RGB Range is set to Limited, assuming you're using RGB output.

I don't know about banding or black crush but right now I like the way it looks set to Full. But I haven't watched anything much yet since 1.8 so I may change my mind.
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post #13 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 07:04 PM
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i think it varies from set to set.
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post #14 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker George View Post

That's not entirely correct. BTB will not be passed if RGB Range is set to Limited, assuming you're using RGB output.

I don't know about banding or black crush but right now I like the way it looks set to Full. But I haven't watched anything much yet since 1.8 so I may change my mind.

You're missing the point , read what Stacey wrote again . RGB Full is not just sending 0-255 levels , its conversion is flawed even though it allows for BTB . Be assured that if Stacey says it is so then it is so .

--- Jason
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post #15 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboZX View Post

So RGB Full still crushes blacks right? That's what I noticed on my display.

Only if your display won't support full range RGB...or if you use HDMI to DVI through an adapter.

I Like Digital!
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post #16 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 08:27 PM
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I have a Sony KDF-E42A10 projection LCD and was wondering if any of these settings can work for me or do they only affect HDMI 1.3 sets? Thanks
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post #17 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 08:53 PM
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Guys the Blu-Ray Decent is a good movie for testing blacks.
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post #18 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

You're missing the point , read what Stacey wrote again . RGB Full is not just sending 0-255 levels , its conversion is flawed even though it allows for BTB . Be assured that if Stacey says it is so then it is so .

--- Jason

Oh I believe it, I was just taking exception to this line:

Quote:


BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it.

That's not the case with my setup using the THX test off a DVD. Maybe I misuderstood something.
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post #19 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker George View Post

Oh I believe it, I was just taking exception to this line:

That's not the case with my setup using the THX test off a DVD. Maybe I misuderstood something.


It is when you set BD playback to Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb
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post #20 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMD_Terp View Post

It is when you set BD playback to Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb

But when you're in Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb mode the RGB Range setting doesn't mean anything. It's only for RGB HDMI output. Or no?

Do you have to have Super-White on to get BTB with Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb output? I've only got a DVI input so I can't use it.
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post #21 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 10:05 PM
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Interesting. I can see only 8 of the boxes with my option set to full.

If I set it to limited, I can see all 12, but the left side ones are VERY dim.

Is this correct?

Sony pay me 10 beeeelion dollars to plant blu-ray seeeeds.
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post #22 of 125 Old 05-25-2007, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker George View Post

But when you're in Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb mode the RGB Range setting doesn't mean anything. It's only for RGB HDMI output. Or no?

Do you have to have Super-White on to get BTB with Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb output? I've only got a DVI input so I can't use it.


I thought so...


Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb plus superwhite ON results in BTB/WTW working.
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post #23 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 11:49 AM
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Is it correct that Blu-ray discs will output Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb and videos played off the hard drive will output RGB?
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post #24 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 11:55 AM
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I agree that Y Pr/Cr Pb/Cb looks better for blu ray. Does anyone here have a samsung that allows you to set the hdmi level on the tv itself? When i set the hdmi on my tv to low, i can see about 8-9 boxes and blacks are black. But when i switch it to normal, i see a bit more washed out picture, showing all 12. However, when i set the RGB to full and have it set to low on my tv, i get all black on the test screen. Pr/Cr Pb/Cb looks better for blu ray, after much switching back and forth.

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post #25 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 12:40 PM
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Does anyone know if my Sammy HL-S4676 RGB full range?
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post #26 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Better check out the 'real deal' on RGB FULL from Stacey Spears in this thread (post #115) .
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10630977


--- Jason

That is only half right. It depends on your tv. My tv mitsu 65831 wants a 0-255 color space only on 1080p and is fine with 16-235 for all other sources. That is why the bug in the 1.8 switching back to limited on blue ray or dvd sucks. Some tv's out there mitsubishi dlps for sure, look for a 0-255 color space on 1080p stuff only. To verify this if i set rgb to full and launch a 1080p game or trailer, the blacks stay black with no black crush and color fidelity is increased. If I set it to limited then 1080p games get washed out, but 720p games look fine. I am not making this up. test it. If your tv looks the same with 1080i and limited as it does with 1080p full range on games then you have one of the sets that look for a 0-255 color space on 1080p only.
I have a feeling the new mitsu wont have this problem, and it wouldnt be a problem if sony fixes the bug in the rgb full changing back to limited on blue ray, dvd, or ps2 games. BTW setting to superwhite and digital component the "y,cr,cb" or whatever will not help your position in 1080p if you have one of these sets.
So let me repeat this fact.
SOME 1080P TV'S WANT THE 0-255 COLOR SPACE ON 1080P ONLY AND UNTIL SONY FIXES THE RGB BUG WE ARE SCREWED. YOUR ARE BETTER OFF TURNING RGB TO LIMITED AND WATCHING BLUE RAY OR DVD'S ON 1080I
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post #27 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboZX View Post

So RGB Full still crushes blacks right? That's what I noticed on my display.

IT WILL ONLY CRUSH BLACKS ON ANY RESOLUTION OTHER THEN 1080P. I HAVE VERIFIED THIS NOW THREE DISPLAYS WERE I WORK. TEST IT I BET WITH RGB FULL AND PLAYBACK OF A 1080P GAME LIKE NINJA GAIDEN OR RR, YOU WILL NOT GET BLACK CRUSH. ALSO GAME VIDEOS THAT ARE 1080P WILL NOT GET BLACK CRUSH. YOU WILL GET BLACK CRUSH ON 720P AND 1080I WITH RGB FULL. WHEN SONY FIXES THE RGB FULL BUG TO STICK WITH BLUE RAY MOVIES, DVD , AND PS2 GAMES YOU WILL HAVE GREAT IMAGE WITH THOSE SOURCES AND ZERO BLACK CRUSH. BUT ONLY WITH 1080P. SOME TV'S WANT 0-255 COLOR SPACE ON ONLY 1080P.
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post #28 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 02:36 PM
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PARASITE ,

You are still missing the point that Stacey made in that the 'Full' setting is mapping the levels incorrectly . So while most of what you said makes sense and would probably be accurate for several displays the 'Full' setting would need to be done properly and from what Stacey says , at least at this point with 1.8 , it has not been done properly . It is not just a simple case of 0-255 vs. 16-235 .

--- Jason
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post #29 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

PARASITE ,

You are still missing the point that Stacey made in that the 'Full' setting is mapping the levels incorrectly . So while most of what you said makes sense and would probably be accurate for several displays the 'Full' setting would need to be done properly and from what Stacey says , at least at this point with 1.8 , it has not been done properly . It is not just a simple case of 0-255 vs. 16-235 .

--- Jason

No your missing the point and so is he. It depends on your display. That may be true with his display but not all displays. when i set rgb full on with 1080p i can see all the boxes. If I have tv set to 1080i or 720p I get black crush. Its not that rgb remaps the levels, its the fact the display itself is looking for different levels with different resolutions. 1080p on lots of sets "those that started taking 1080p thru hdmi" are looking for full range, because the manufactures designed them that way. Mits and sony both fit in the book. try and you will see. get a sony xbr2 xbr3 v2500 and set rgb to full with 1080p and you will see that 1080p games and xmb demos, and trailers will look perfect with zero black crush. If you set the ps3 output to 720p or 1080i or play a game in those resolutions, with rgb full you will get black crush. Its not the conversion, its the display. That is why some people dont have this problem. some displays dont change "samsung dlps especially".
This is the same reason why when the 360 went 1080p many people had washed out image even tho they didnt have washed out image before. samsung dlp's accept and display accurately rgb limited with 1080p. BTW I have now tested this with 10 displays were I work. The sony and mits both look for rgb full on 1080p only but limited with other resolutions. the 2008 models wont have this problem because now the manufactures have a grip on how to display 1080p.
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post #30 of 125 Old 05-26-2007, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PARASITE View Post

No your missing the point and so is he. It depends on your display. That may be true with his display but not all displays. when i set rgb full on with 1080p i can see all the boxes. If I have tv set to 1080i or 720p I get black crush. Its not that rgb remaps the levels, its the fact the display itself is looking for different levels with different resolutions. 1080p on lots of sets "those that started taking 1080p thru hdmi" are looking for full range, because the manufactures designed them that way. Mits and sony both fit in the book. try and you will see. get a sony xbr2 xbr3 v2500 and set rgb to full with 1080p and you will see that 1080p games and xmb demos, and trailers will look perfect with zero black crush. If you set the ps3 output to 720p or 1080i or play a game in those resolutions, with rgb full you will get black crush. Its not the conversion, its the display. That is why some people dont have this problem. some displays dont change "samsung dlps especially".
This is the same reason why when the 360 went 1080p many people had washed out image even tho they didnt have washed out image before. samsung dlp's accept and display accurately rgb limited with 1080p. BTW I have now tested this with 10 displays were I work. The sony and mits both look for rgb full on 1080p only but limited with other resolutions. the 2008 models wont have this problem because now the manufactures have a grip on how to display 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_six_pack View Post

Interesting. I can see only 8 of the boxes with my option set to full.

If I set it to limited, I can see all 12, but the left side ones are VERY dim.

Is this correct?

I have a v2500 and this is what I'm showing.

Sony pay me 10 beeeelion dollars to plant blu-ray seeeeds.
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