RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 438 Old 05-03-2008, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Actually, you are the one giving people bad information. Trat is correct. Set RGB to limited unless you are using a computer monitor that expects full range (ie 0,0,0 to be black).

The setting doesn't change the colors the PS3 generates, it only stretches the colorspace to match computer monitors.

I really wish they hadn't labeled the options for the setting the way they did, it's caused no end of confusion.

Are you saying the PS3 even on Full doesn't produce the full range of colors and produces slightly less than 8 bit color channels regardless of the setting? If that's the case, that was stupid of Sony to do it that way. Sony should know their sets today are no different than computer monitors. My XBR4 when tested with a computer and the XBR set to Full RGB range is displaying the full 8 bits per color channel with the exception that the panel cannot do the darkest 5 blacks. The panel crushed some of the whites but I haven't counted how many it cannot display. In my color banding test I performed last night I sampled six 14 color wide ranges and in each range I could see each color. There was no estimated colors where I lost color resolution.

I believe the confusion everyone is having is that there are two RGB Range settings. One on the PS3 and one on the XBR4. We have already determined the XBR4 RGB Dynamic Range set to Auto is actually Limited. So if you are not attempting to adjust your XBR4 to accept the full range of colors, you definitely will only get the limited range of colors.

Scott
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post #272 of 438 Old 05-05-2008, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

Are you saying the PS3 even on Full doesn't produce the full range of colors and produces slightly less than 8 bit color channels regardless of the setting? If that's the case, that was stupid of Sony to do it that way. Sony should know their sets today are no different than computer monitors. My XBR4 when tested with a computer and the XBR set to Full RGB range is displaying the full 8 bits per color channel with the exception that the panel cannot do the darkest 5 blacks. The panel crushed some of the whites but I haven't counted how many it cannot display. In my color banding test I performed last night I sampled six 14 color wide ranges and in each range I could see each color. There was no estimated colors where I lost color resolution.

I believe the confusion everyone is having is that there are two RGB Range settings. One on the PS3 and one on the XBR4. We have already determined the XBR4 RGB Dynamic Range set to Auto is actually Limited. So if you are not attempting to adjust your XBR4 to accept the full range of colors, you definitely will only get the limited range of colors.

Scott

Yes!!! (On RGB setting). YCbCr with superwhite on is the only thing that really gives you "full range".

You've mad a couple of bad assumptions. First, that most TVs have a "full" setting. This is wrong. Most TVs assume they are getting a video signal in the YCbCr range even if they are getting an RGB signal. The second bad assumption is that people do things logically. That's painfully false. Add to that the wording for much of the PS3 stuff that is originally Japanese and translated to English, and we get a lot of confusion.

So here's what we have now:
RGB limited = YCbCr with Superwhite off
RGB full stretches the YCbCr with Superwhite off range to the full range for monitors that assume YCbCr black is RGB 0.
There is no RGB equivalent to YCbCr with Superwhite on.

What needs to happen is the the RGB setting needs to use different terminology. Instead of "limited" or "full", it should say "TV" or "computer monitor". What would also be nice is if the Superwhite setting affected the RGB mode so that if you have RGB set to "TV" (ie limited) and Superwhite is on, then you really get the full color range when outputting RGB.

Your TV has an RGB full option so that your colors are correct when sending it RGB from a computer. They added the RGB full option to the PS3 so that the colors are correct when outputting to a computer monitor. If you do both they are canceling themselves out (it doesn't hurt, but there's no benefit either).
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post #273 of 438 Old 05-05-2008, 12:29 PM
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Ok does anyone know what colors space setting to use on the xbr4, normal, auto or xv color?
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post #274 of 438 Old 05-05-2008, 01:48 PM
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what settings do you guys use for gaming with the XBR4/PS3?

PSN: Unbreakable21
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post #275 of 438 Old 05-05-2008, 03:45 PM
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I have the Sony A3000 (SXRD), which accepts RGB full range. The only advice I have is if you are going to use RGB Full on the PS3, make sure the tv is set to "Full" and not "Auto" because the TV does not automatically detect Full properly - the A3000 anyway, don't know about the XBR4.

I've tested them both (and YCC superwhite) and IMO the only thing you gain in RGB Full is some brighter whites (WTW)... While you DO get darker blacks (BTB), if you have your set properly calibrated (so 16 or "video black" is as black as possible), you'll never see those darker blacks...
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post #276 of 438 Old 05-06-2008, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Yes!!! (On RGB setting). YCbCr with superwhite on is the only thing that really gives you "full range".

You've mad a couple of bad assumptions. First, that most TVs have a "full" setting. This is wrong. Most TVs assume they are getting a video signal in the YCbCr range even if they are getting an RGB signal. The second bad assumption is that people do things logically. That's painfully false. Add to that the wording for much of the PS3 stuff that is originally Japanese and translated to English, and we get a lot of confusion.

You know this is a Sony XBR4 thread, right? The Sony XBR4 does indeed support both Limited and Full RGB ranges.

You do realize that the engineers that designed the HDMI specification used logic, rather than waiting for the stars to align, to come up with the specifications for the digital 1s and 0s that go over the wire. You cannot simply ignore because you do not understand or it is not convenient for you to consider it. Those 1s and 0s do exist regardless if you want to consider them and there are no fractions for Limited to produce the same RGB Range as Full. In fact, that is precisely the name of the setting we're talking about! Limited RGB Range and FULL RGB Range. Did the engineers also just guess on that one too?


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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

So here's what we have now:
RGB limited = YCbCr with Superwhite off
RGB full stretches the YCbCr with Superwhite off range to the full range for monitors that assume YCbCr black is RGB 0.
There is no RGB equivalent to YCbCr with Superwhite on.

What needs to happen is the the RGB setting needs to use different terminology. Instead of "limited" or "full", it should say "TV" or "computer monitor". What would also be nice is if the Superwhite setting affected the RGB mode so that if you have RGB set to "TV" (ie limited) and Superwhite is on, then you really get the full color range when outputting RGB.

Your TV has an RGB full option so that your colors are correct when sending it RGB from a computer. They added the RGB full option to the PS3 so that the colors are correct when outputting to a computer monitor. If you do both they are canceling themselves out (it doesn't hurt, but there's no benefit either).

You are being overly simplistic. I submit to you a quote from someone of slightly greater intelligence than you and I. Albert Einstein once said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." You are making it simpler than it really is when you say Limited/Limited and Full/Full are no different. If Computers have more colors and if both the PS3 and XBR can support both TV and computer outputs/inputs, why not use the one that is defined to have more colors? What you're ignoring in your Full/Full case is that we're talking about a digital signal, and not an analog signal. If it were analog I would agree with you, but since we're dealing with digital you cannot ignore those pesky 1s and 0s you are ignoring. Please revert to my tables and tell me how you see the Full/Full setting being the same as Limited/Limited. The way I currently have it you'll get 14% more colors with Full/Full. So show me the mapping.

Scott
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post #277 of 438 Old 05-06-2008, 11:29 AM
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There's obviously no point in discussing this any further with you. Enjoy your ignorance.
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post #278 of 438 Old 05-06-2008, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

You know this is a Sony XBR4 thread, right? The Sony XBR4 does indeed support both Limited and Full RGB ranges.

You do realize that the engineers that designed the HDMI specification used logic, rather than waiting for the stars to align, to come up with the specifications for the digital 1s and 0s that go over the wire. You cannot simply ignore because you do not understand or it is not convenient for you to consider it. Those 1s and 0s do exist regardless if you want to consider them and there are no fractions for Limited to produce the same RGB Range as Full. In fact, that is precisely the name of the setting we're talking about! Limited RGB Range and FULL RGB Range. Did the engineers also just guess on that one too?




You are being overly simplistic. I submit to you a quote from someone of slightly greater intelligence than you and I. Albert Einstein once said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." You are making it simpler than it really is when you say Limited/Limited and Full/Full are no different. If Computers have more colors and if both the PS3 and XBR can support both TV and computer outputs/inputs, why not use the one that is defined to have more colors? What you're ignoring in your Full/Full case is that we're talking about a digital signal, and not an analog signal. If it were analog I would agree with you, but since we're dealing with digital you cannot ignore those pesky 1s and 0s you are ignoring. Please revert to my tables and tell me how you see the Full/Full setting being the same as Limited/Limited. The way I currently have it you'll get 14% more colors with Full/Full. So show me the mapping.

Scott

Are you retarded (limited) or are you super ignorant (full)? You don't get 14% more colors out of the PS3: on what NASA screen, whatever...

Trat.
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post #279 of 438 Old 05-07-2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Trat View Post

Are you retarded (limited) or are you super ignorant (full)? You don't get 14% more colors out of the PS3: on what NASA screen, whatever...

Trat.

You guys clearly have no compression of the difference between digital and analog. I have asked quite objectively for you to provide your own explanation, but you refuse to.

Best of luck with your 220 colors,
Scott
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post #280 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 05:21 AM
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To the user that PM'd me with the request for my white crush test. I have attached it in this post.

I did not tripod my camera to take pictures to put on display but I will over the weekend. My results are RGB 254,254,254 (can't see 255 since it is true white) when XBR4 is set to Full, and RGB 247,247,247 when XBR4 set to Auto (the same as limited). Obviously the original Limited clipping of 235,235,235 I got from early on in this forum are not correct. It would appear the whites are not clipped nearly as much as the blacks by the Limited setting. It seems the Auto/Limited setting clips about 7 shades of gray.

Cheers,
Scott

PS - To the user that PM'd me, the color banding test I promised is still in works. It is a hard test to perform and just this morning I figured out another way to test for color banding. It will take me a while to create this test to get out there.
LL
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post #281 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

Best of luck with your 220 colors,
Scott

Even your practical jokes are incorrect... *searches for facepalm.jpg*

BTW. Your white crush test displays all figures on my TV with the PS3 on limited. Same as the black crush test...
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post #282 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 06:41 AM
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Even your practical jokes are incorrect... *searches for facepalm.jpg*

You have many opportunities to demonstrate intelligence, rather you choose derogatory behavior. I cannot help you with your psychological problems that lead you down this path of negativity. I can help you in an intellectual argument. Again, I challenge you to demonstrate intelligence. If you are so convinced there is more to what causes the black and white clipping when the PS3 and XBR RGB Dynamic Range settings are not matched properly, then please spell it out for us with defensible tests and demonstrations to prove such as I have.

Cheers,
Scott
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post #283 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

You have many opportunities to demonstrate intelligence, rather you choose derogatory behavior. I cannot help you with your psychological problems that lead you down this path of negativity. I can help you in an intellectual argument. Again, I challenge you to demonstrate intelligence. If you are so convinced there is more to what causes the black and white clipping when the PS3 and XBR RGB Dynamic Range settings are not matched properly, then please spell it out for us with defensible tests and demonstrations to prove such as I have.

Cheers,
Scott

Yes yes, but your white crush test displays all figures on my TV with the PS3 on limited RGB. Same as the black crush test. My TV lacks a so called "Full RGB" option.

That's all I want to say. Limited PS3 on Limited TV = Full PS3 on Full TV. Not more colors, just stretching it to fit in the Full RGB paradime.
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post #284 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 06:58 AM
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Yes yes, but your white crush test displays all figures on my TV with the PS3 on limited RGB. Same as the black crush test. My TV lacks a so called "Full RGB" option.

That's all I want to say. Limited PS3 on Limited TV = Full PS3 on Full TV. Not more colors, just stretching it to fit in the Full RGB paradime.

White crush and black crush are not related to color banding. Again, see my tables to understand what's going on between the source and panel. It will explain why black crush and white crush tests will be the same for Limited/Limited and Full/Full while the colors represented are not the same. If you look closely at the shade of gray for Full/Full and compare to Limited/Limited you'll find that every 7th shade of gray is missing with Limited/Limited but is present with Full/Full. I have been working on a color banding test to test for this but it is challenging. My first approach didn't really work so well, and the second one is going to be a lot of work. I'm going to knock it out so we can have better test tools.

I do understand that Y'CbCr is used over the wire, but I am not confident this has any influence on what the source (the video game itself or the DVD being played) and what the set is doing (after all processing as the bits are being rendered on the panel). Isn't it used more as a form of data compression? If you look closely, our panels are RGB. The same is true for how video games are coded to produce colors. It is going to be a long time until we have different pigments on our panels. I know Canon is working on four color LCDs and I'm sure others are working on similar. I bring this up because my tables, which are very important to understanding this discussion, are from RGB source to the RGB display (and I'm referring to the display chip that creates the raw bits going to the RGB panel).

I hope you understand you are glossing over one critical word in your description of the exactness of Limited/Limited and Full/Full. That key word you are not considering is "stretch". These numbers are not floats, are not doubles, they are integers from 0 to 255. There are no fractions, there are no decimal points, and there is no additional precision to eliminate round off error. This is not a problem if the signal is analog, but we're talking about digital. However, maybe there is another trick that resolves this that I am not aware of. If you are, please explain it so we all can understand. In the mean time I'm going to continue considering a color banding test to measure it.

Scott
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post #285 of 438 Old 05-09-2008, 04:34 PM
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I have thought more about this as I was building some algorithms to test what the math would be doing over the wire. Does anyone know the number of bits that are used for Y', Cb, and Cr over HDMI? If it's 8 bits each then even doing Y'CbCr will cause color loss over RGB regardless of the Limited/Full setting. I can demonstrate mathematically that additional colors are lost using the Limited setting over the full. Again, the reason is due to additional rounding since fewer numbers are available. However, if the number of bits for Y', Cb and Cr is greater than 8, then there may be no color loss at all between Limited or Full. I had assumed it would be 8 bit since all articles refer to it in 8 bit, but that may not be what is happening over HDMI to ensure no colors are lost.

IF the number of bits is over 8, this discussion is over, there is no difference between Limited/Limited and Full/Full. If someone knows please post the answer.

I still intend to produce a color banding test as this color banding discussion has repeated itself frequently.

Cheers,
Scott
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post #286 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

I have thought more about this as I was building some algorithms to test what the math would be doing over the wire. Does anyone know the number of bits that are used for Y', Cb, and Cr over HDMI? If it's 8 bits each then even doing Y'CbCr will cause color loss over RGB regardless of the Limited/Full setting. I can demonstrate mathematically that additional colors are lost using the Limited setting over the full. Again, the reason is due to additional rounding since fewer numbers are available. However, if the number of bits for Y', Cb and Cr is greater than 8, then there may be no color loss at all between Limited or Full. I had assumed it would be 8 bit since all articles refer to it in 8 bit, but that may not be what is happening over HDMI to ensure no colors are lost.

IF the number of bits is over 8, this discussion is over, there is no difference between Limited/Limited and Full/Full. If someone knows please post the answer.

I still intend to produce a color banding test as this color banding discussion has repeated itself frequently.

Cheers,
Scott

I don't know Scott, to me Limited shows the same colors as Full...
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post #287 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 05:10 AM
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I don't know Scott, to me Limited shows the same colors as Full...

What tests have you done to prove that? The basis behind your arguments have been a pinch thin.

After doing the math yesterday it would take only 10bits for YCbCr to not have any color loss when Limited/Limited is used. If it's 8bits then there is quite a bit of loss. What's interesting is the loss is on the conversion from RGB to YCbCr (within the PS3) and not on the conversion from YCbCr to RGB (within the set). Here's a small run of numbers to demonstrate it:
RGB = 23, 23, 23 => YCbCr = 36, 128, 128 => RGB = 23, 23, 23
RGB = 24, 24, 24 => YCbCr = 37, 128, 128 => RGB = 24, 24, 24
RGB = 25, 25, 25 => YCbCr = 37, 128, 128 => RGB = 24, 24, 24
RGB = 26, 26, 26 => YCbCr = 38, 128, 128 => RGB = 26, 26, 26

This is what I'm getting at. This is digital, simply "expanding" a digital signal does not imply infinite resolution. IF the YCBCr is 10bit this will not happen, if it's 8 bit it will happen. I am curious what test you have done to truly know you are not loosing colors. The first test I did was pretty hard to verify but it did work for the six 14 color series samples I tried it on.

I need to produce an easy to use color banding test or we need to determine what video controller the PS3 is using.

Scott
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post #288 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

I have thought more about this as I was building some algorithms to test what the math would be doing over the wire. Does anyone know the number of bits that are used for Y', Cb, and Cr over HDMI? If it's 8 bits each then even doing Y'CbCr will cause color loss over RGB regardless of the Limited/Full setting. I can demonstrate mathematically that additional colors are lost using the Limited setting over the full. Again, the reason is due to additional rounding since fewer numbers are available. However, if the number of bits for Y', Cb and Cr is greater than 8, then there may be no color loss at all between Limited or Full. I had assumed it would be 8 bit since all articles refer to it in 8 bit, but that may not be what is happening over HDMI to ensure no colors are lost.

IF the number of bits is over 8, this discussion is over, there is no difference between Limited/Limited and Full/Full. If someone knows please post the answer.

I still intend to produce a color banding test as this color banding discussion has repeated itself frequently.

Cheers,
Scott

Discussion over. My Denon 4308 AVR tells me exactly what the PS3 is outputting. It is RGB, 4:4:4,12 bit for the xmb. I think BD's are YCbCr, 4:4:2, 12 bit.

Months ago we got into this debate and some of us SOny A3000 RPTV owners got into the fray saying our sets should act the same as the FP LCD's in terms of RGB. I and others did NOT calibrate after having set the PS3 and the tv to Full RGB, but we knew by playing some games for example that Limited did not crush blacks like Full. It seems if Full RGB were correct than selecting both on the tv and PS3 should yield a proper or correct picture right out of the box, but it doesn't.
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post #289 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 05:30 AM
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My Denon 4308 AVR tells me exactly what the PS3 is outputting. It is RGB, 4:4:4,12 bit for the xmb. I think BD's are YCbCr, 4:4:2, 12 bit.

Nice. Thanks dude. There is no issue then. What blows me away is that HDMI was supposed to make this easy by putting all information needed on the wire so we never had to worry about this crap. It's interesting though.

12 bits is pretty deep. That should be more than adequate.

Cheers,
Scott
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post #290 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

Nice. Thanks dude. There is no issue then. What blows me away is that HDMI was supposed to make this easy by putting all information needed on the wire so we never had to worry about this crap. It's interesting though.

12 bits is pretty deep. That should be more than adequate.

Cheers,
Scott

I still can't get my head around it all maybe cause I don't want to get that involved in some tech that requires too much thinking as much as I love this hobby. I want to just sit back and enjoy it. I do wonder why the PS3 and my tv have those settings, RGB Full, if they are "supposed" to be for PC monitors.
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post #291 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

Nice. Thanks dude. There is no issue then. What blows me away is that HDMI was supposed to make this easy by putting all information needed on the wire so we never had to worry about this crap. It's interesting though.

12 bits is pretty deep. That should be more than adequate.

Cheers,
Scott



I will confirm again tomorrow for BD's and PS3 games which are on BD's and let you know.
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post #292 of 438 Old 05-10-2008, 03:46 PM
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It seems if Full RGB were correct than selecting both on the tv and PS3 should yield a proper or correct picture right out of the box, but it doesn't.

1+

Trat

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I do wonder why the PS3 and my tv have those settings, RGB Full, if they are "supposed" to be for PC monitors.

PS3 has Full RGB option so you can connect it properly to a PC monitor. TVs have Full RGB option to handle the signals of a PC input properly...
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post #293 of 438 Old 05-12-2008, 08:10 AM
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I will confirm again tomorrow for BD's and PS3 games which are on BD's and let you know.

Any results from this? Particularly games...there is no reason to think BD movies will be different using Full or Limited.

Brandon
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post #294 of 438 Old 05-12-2008, 04:52 PM
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I still can't get my head around it all maybe cause I don't want to get that involved in some tech that requires too much thinking as much as I love this hobby. I want to just sit back and enjoy it. I do wonder why the PS3 and my tv have those settings, RGB Full, if they are "supposed" to be for PC monitors.

I am a bit surprised that HDMI doesn't already communicate everything required over the wire for the video signal. I think that is what is most irritating about this whole thing.

I get into it because I have built my HTPC and it requires me to get a bit more involved than the typical Joe. I have had to figure out many things to get it to work right. This is one of them. Although not to the degree that we explored it here in this thread.

Scott
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post #295 of 438 Old 05-12-2008, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Trat View Post

1+

Trat


PS3 has Full RGB option so you can connect it properly to a PC monitor. TVs have Full RGB option to handle the signals of a PC input properly...

If this is true then there is something else funny going on beyond the YCbCr encoding. If you set the PS3 to work with a PC Monitor, and if you set the monitor to accept PC inputs, why would it be different?

Scott
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post #296 of 438 Old 05-13-2008, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

If you set the PS3 to work with a PC Monitor, and if you set the monitor to accept PC inputs, why would it be different?

Who said thats different?
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post #297 of 438 Old 05-13-2008, 12:22 PM
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My apologies for not getting back on this sooner.

My Denon 4308ci from the PS3 displays:
BD movies: 1080p24hz/YCbCr/4:4:4 12 bit


PS3 games: like GTA4: 720p/RGB/4:4:4 12bit

I do remember now checking these in the past for other games like Uncharted and R:FOM and they display the same as GTA4: RGB 4:4:4 12 bit.

Same with BD's. They all are YCbCr 4:4:4 12 bit

:

In case anyone is wondering, my Denon displays first what signal is coming in and second what it is sending to my A3000 as in whether or not I am doing conversion in the receiver which I do not.
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post #298 of 438 Old 05-18-2008, 02:23 AM
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Scott, any new tests you want to feed me?
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post #299 of 438 Old 05-19-2008, 07:12 PM
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any panny industrial plasma owners?? i have a th50phd8uk. ps3 directly to dsplay over hdmi. it looks pretty incredible to me using full, then turning the brightness up 3 clicks. the blacks look nice and inky and the slight increase in brightness brings out shadow detail. soes this sound like the best way to go? i believe the industrial series is made to do double time as a computer monitor or whatever else a buisness or network could need?
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post #300 of 438 Old 05-22-2008, 12:39 PM
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I set mine to full on my A3000 and have the TV se tto full also. If tis set to limited the blacks are very washed out. If i recalibrate to limited it will screew with the calibration setting i have for watching blu ray movies through my PS3 which is sent over at Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr.
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