RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 438 Old 04-08-2009, 08:29 AM
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I discovered that the best setting for us is to set the PS3 and KDL-40XBR4 as follows:

For the PS3 - Some games do run in RGB as opposed to YPb/Cb Pr/Cr

* Set "Display Settings --> RGB Full Range (HDMI)" to FULL
* Set "Video Settings --> BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI)" to YPb/Cb Pr/Cr
* Set Superwhite to ON

For the KDL-40XBR4

* Set "Video Options --> RGB Dynamic Range" to AUTO

Those settings seem to be the best for the KDL-40XBR4 and the PS3 to place nice together, and give you the best picture for both games and blu-ray movies.

Best Regards!

Kindest Regards,

DarkDune

NEW Sony KDL-40XBR4 Optimized Settings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5245
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post #362 of 438 Old 04-08-2009, 02:18 PM
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Interesting Quote. Is this true?

"The RGB Limited option was created to allow the PS3 to output to earlier HDTV displays that followed BT.709 in HDMI 1.2 protocol, which do not or could not support displaying 0-15 and 236-255 primary color values. Since these earlier BT.709 HDTV displays would not normally handle 0-15 and 236-255 values anyways, the PS3 scales or cuts out those values in the content before passing them to the HDTV."

From "RGB Limited/Full Option when using HDMI connection" section at http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Video

Kindest Regards,

DarkDune

NEW Sony KDL-40XBR4 Optimized Settings:
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post #363 of 438 Old 04-08-2009, 02:43 PM
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One question, given all the discussion about RGB Full and Limited.

The Sony XBR4's have an Advanced Setting called Color Space, which can be set to WIDE, or STANDARD.

Here is the question:

Any idea if setting the Color Space to STANDARD nulls the effect of using RGB Full?

The Color Space setting description in the manual is:
"Selects the range of color reproduction from Wide or Standard."

Confusing, isn't it?

Kindest Regards,

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post #364 of 438 Old 04-08-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post

One question, given all the discussion about RGB Full and Limited.

The Sony XBR4's have an Advanced Setting called Color Space, which can be set to WIDE, or STANDARD.

Here is the question:

Any idea if setting the Color Space to STANDARD nulls the effect of using RGB Full?

The Color Space setting description in the manual is:
"Selects the range of color reproduction from Wide or Standard."

Confusing, isn't it?

RGB has nothing to do with colors. Set the TVs color space to standard.
RGB Dynamic Range is the one feature you should look for in a Sony because
the Sony SXRD A3000 has this feature and it handles RGB Full from the PS3
unmolested full 0-255.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #365 of 438 Old 04-11-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

RGB has nothing to do with colors. Set the TVs color space to standard.
RGB Dynamic Range is the one feature you should look for in a Sony because
the Sony SXRD A3000 has this feature and it handles RGB Full from the PS3
unmolested full 0-255.

I have the A3000 and one does NOT want to have the PS3 at Full. I set the A3000 to Auto, but here is why you don't want the PS3 set at Full regardless of what some think or even see:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
I'm not familiar with the AVC disc, but you NEVER have to have anything visible below black to calibrate black level correctly. You merely turn down the brightness control until the above white bar disappears, then turn it back up until the above white bar is visible again - and, depending on the video display and the test disc, you probably need to add 1 or 2 more clicks to get the above white bar to the right luminance level. Having the below black bar visible doesn't get you any closer than 1 or 2 clicks on any given display anyway, so it's not really necessary to see the below black bar.
You mean above black, not above white, I presume. You are correct that you can get by without below-black bars if you are stuck in such a situation. However, as I have pointed out to you before, aligning black level properly using SMPTE method requires the below black bar to be present, because to align black level using SMPTE recommendation means that you are observing for the presence/absence of the below-black bar primarily. Obviously if below blacks are entirely clipped off, you can not observe for this since there is never any change in below-black bar visibility if it's clipped off entirely.


Quote:
All consumer video sources are encoded with digital values 16-235. Black is digital 16. If you enable the full 0-255 mode and the PS3 changes digital 16 to digital 0, everything you play will be hosed unless you re-calibrate your video display.
You have this backwards. While what you describe is usually true, the PS3 is actually strange in this regard, selecting full does not perform an expansion to graphics levels, but a compression from graphics levels to video levels. That is to say, 0 gets mapped to 16, not 16 gets mapped to 0. This is why you are likely to still see below black and peak white when setting to full on the PS3. In fact, it can be more confusing because if you're feeding a display that clips at 16-235, then you select full, you should likely be able to see below black and peak whites now, but it's wrong to conclude that this is the preferred setting because the banding hit due to the remapping of the levels into a compressed numerical range is far more significant IMO. This is one case where I would recommend sticking with limited even if you still are clipping below blacks elsewhere in your system, because this is much less significant a problem than introducing or exacerbating banding issues.

Quote:
If you re-cal your video display, every source except your PS3 is going to be hosed (unless you have different calibrations for each source). I don't know if the PS3 remaps digital 16 to digital 0 or not when you select Full mode. I simply leave the PS3 on Limited all the time and I never have ANY trouble setting or checking brightness level with a test/setup disc.

If you use the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics disc to set your black level, you absolutely, positively see the below black bar in their PLUGE while the PS3 is set to Limited so there is NO reason to set the PS3 to Full. The DVE HD Basics PLUGE pattern is the best I've ever seen... black background, below black bar, and 2 above white bars... one very very close to black... probably either digital value 1 or 1% (which would be digital 2.2 if you could have fractional digital values (you can't)). The DVE pattern is just as easy to use on displays that won't show blacker-than-black as it is on displays that DO show blacker-than-black.

Bottom line - you did the wrong thing setting the PS3 to Full. My guess would be that the AVC disc's encoding is different than DVE HD Basics... since Joe Kane made the DVE HD Basics disc... I'm going with his disc which shows that the Limited setting for the PS3 is the correct setting.

Indeed.

Also see:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post10630977
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
So I just tested RGB @ full and you want to leave it as limit, unless you like to increase banding.

RGB @ Limit - Levels stay where they are. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 1, 1, 1 when done.
RGB @ Full - Levels get compressed. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 16, 16, 16 when done. (Best guess based on looking at image)
Full is different than the usual expansion where Y 16, CbCr 128 becomes RGB 0, 0, 0.

The best video quality is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it. Then turn brightness back down where it belongs. When you set brightness based on RGB limit and then switch to RGB full, you will see the BTB stripe. This is because you just remapped Y 7, CbCr 128 (the BTB stripe) to a much higher value.
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post #366 of 438 Old 04-11-2009, 07:18 PM
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Since this section is for Home Theatre GAMING I believe that the settings should be full.

Calibrating with software has netted closer to video results on limited but since I do 70% gaming and 30% movie watching to me full is preferred not to mention more greyscale means more colour and depth and it shows with games such as COD5 and GTA4.
On paper anyway the results were closer but physically the differance in movies was not seen.
This is personal preference and not a "i'm right your wrong" situation.
To each his own though but for me full for gaming and movies to save dicking about changing everything when doing one or the other...
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post #367 of 438 Old 04-12-2009, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettus View Post

Since this section is for Home Theatre GAMING I believe that the settings should be full.

Calibrating with software has netted closer to video results on limited but since I do 70% gaming and 30% movie watching to me full is preferred not to mention more greyscale means more colour and depth and it shows with games such as COD5 and GTA4.
On paper anyway the results were closer but physically the differance in movies was not seen.
This is personal preference and not a "i'm right your wrong" situation.
To each his own though but for me full for gaming and movies to save dicking about changing everything when doing one or the other...

It could be your prefered setting, but that doesn't really matter. If your TV can handle Full, putting the PS3 on Full wont make games any more colourful or anything. It will look just the same as on a Limited setup, once you calibrated your TV accordingly. If you like it more Full (VS Limited), then either you didn't have your TV calibrated that nicely, or you have taste for darker settings. Both options don't matter. Full VS Limited is just a different way of mapping levels. If you are using a PC monitor, I would put the PS3 on Full. Again, this won't render deeper/more colours or whatever VS the Limited setting: it just ensures that the levels get mapped according to the specs of a PC monitor.

So, as I stated in my opening sentence, it doesn't really matter (in terms of colour) if you use Full VS Limited or what your taste/preference in this matter is. As long as you use the setting the is most compatible with your TV, you are good. But don't look to deep into this. As I explained, it is pretty useless to put your PS3 on Limited en then switch on something in your TV's menu that makes it compatible with Full. You could as well have left both on Limited then.
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post #368 of 438 Old 04-12-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I have the A3000 and one does NOT want to have the PS3 at Full. I set the A3000 to Auto, but here is why you don't want the PS3 set at Full regardless of what some think or even see:

=====================================
My post before regarding RGB:

Quote:


When under XMB or anything besides Blu-Ray, DVD, or any video disc based:
RGB Limited (PS3) RGB Limited (TV): Levels are 0-255 remapped from 16-235
RGB Full (PS3) RGB Limited (TV): Levels are 16-235 from a 0-255 remapped from a 16-235
RGB Full (PS3) RGB Full (TV) Levels are 0-255 untouched
When using Blu-Ray, DVD, or and video disc based:
YCbCr Super-White Off: 16-235
YCbCr Super-White On: 16-255

^^ Don't have enough information about YCbCr but through experiments and grayscale patterns
that's what I've come up with.

Quote:


PS3 will not remap a Blu-Ray/DVD to 0-255 unless you set it to RGB
(PS3 will remap it to 0-255 if set to RGB Full on a TV with 0-255)
PS3 always remap game from 0-255 to 16-235 level on a 16-235 TV.
PS3 will not remap game if set to RGB Full and TV has 0-255.

Quote:


PS3 outputs 0-255 on RGB Full. PS3 outputs 16-235 on RGB Limited. XMB, Games are 0-255 levels, DVD, Blu-Ray are 16-235 levels

So to clarify, RGB is set to Full which affects games and the XMB. When
playing a movie or something video based material, it's automatically at
YCbCr which the TV does automatically sets it to 16-235 level unless you
put the Super White On which in this case the 235 is being remapped as
255 as it's peak white. There is no conversion when the TV is Full and PS3
is set to Full also.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #369 of 438 Old 04-13-2009, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trat View Post

It could be your prefered setting, but that doesn't really matter. If your TV can handle Full, putting the PS3 on Full wont make games any more colourful or anything. It will look just the same as on a Limited setup, once you calibrated your TV accordingly. If you like it more Full (VS Limited), then either you didn't have your TV calibrated that nicely, or you have taste for darker settings. Both options don't matter. Full VS Limited is just a different way of mapping levels. If you are using a PC monitor, I would put the PS3 on Full. Again, this won't render deeper/more colours or whatever VS the Limited setting: it just ensures that the levels get mapped according to the specs of a PC monitor.

So, as I stated in my opening sentence, it doesn't really matter (in terms of colour) if you use Full VS Limited or what your taste/preference in this matter is. As long as you use the setting the is most compatible with your TV, you are good. But don't look to deep into this. As I explained, it is pretty useless to put your PS3 on Limited en then switch on something in your TV's menu that makes it compatible with Full. You could as well have left both on Limited then.

Games dont look the same when limited vs full after calibration! have you tried both of these yourself or just stating because on paper you read no difference?
Are our Sony lcd's not the same as pc monitors apart from higher resolution in pc monitors?

If there is no difference then full would be the preferred method as you have stated?

With more levels to map means there is less of a jump between colour steps so again better colour reproduction.

Remember I am pointing this at gaming not movies...
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post #370 of 438 Old 04-14-2009, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettus View Post

Games dont look the same when limited vs full after calibration! have you tried both of these yourself or just stating because on paper you read no difference?

Stopped reading after this. Suite yourself...
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post #371 of 438 Old 04-14-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trat View Post

Stopped reading after this. Suite yourself...

Yep. if you set the PS3 to Full, you get black crush, etc.

Look, my post # 367 which references those who are video experts that know facts and it also provides links that state exactly why you don't want to use RGB Full on the PS3 with HDTV's regardless if they can do RGB Full or not.
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post #372 of 438 Old 04-14-2009, 06:20 PM
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RGB Full just looks better to me.

Plain and simple.
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post #373 of 438 Old 04-14-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettus View Post

Are our Sony lcd's not the same as pc monitors apart from higher resolution in pc monitors?

Actually, no they are not. The panel itself is similar, but the electronics and software are geared towards different environments. That's why most TVs suck when you try to use them as computer monitors.
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post #374 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mave198 View Post

RGB Full just looks better to me.

Plain and simple.

Then your TV just isn't setup up properly. Plain and simple. If I out it on Full it looks horrible IMO. Saying 'It just looks better' just isn't any information at all BTW. What looks better: colors, brightness, black crush? What? Also, it's totally not important what 'looks' better in this discussion, it is import what setting is optimal and there are no differences between Limited and Full (when running on compatible screens). This fact should have ended this discussion a year ago. But, the arbitrary 'it looks better IMO'-comment, revives this discussion time after time. It's actually pretty funny to see people out their opinion, as if their PS3 or display were any special. They are all the same ofcourse...
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post #375 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trat View Post

Then your TV just isn't setup up properly. Plain and simple. If I out it on Full it looks horrible IMO. Saying 'It just looks better' just isn't any information at all BTW. What looks better: colors, brightness, black crush? What? Also, it's totally not important what 'looks' better in this discussion, it is import what setting is optimal and there are no differences between Limited and Full (when running on compatible screens). This fact should have ended this discussion a year ago. But, the arbitrary 'it looks better IMO'-comment, revives this discussion time after time. It's actually pretty funny to see people out their opinion, as if their PS3 or display were any special. They are all the same ofcourse...

I think you are being a bit harsh. I also prefer full, but I do understand that full and limited should look identical on a properly calibrated tv. I found it quite difficult calibrating brightness of my tv using DVE. The whole point was that you had some blacker than black bars, and a black bar. But since the PS3 was clipping blacker than black, I never felt I was adjusting it perfectly, but simply getting close. Only later did I learn that I could change it to full. What a difference it made! I was able to actually get the brightness down a few notches, and my blacks are a black as my mid to low end Sammy LCD can display, knowing that any blacker than black colors that the ps3 may be sending out do indeed appear no different than black.
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post #376 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 12:40 PM
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just bought the ps3 and i have the sony xbr5--ive been going thru so many threads that im getting dizzy. where can i find a list of what should be the settings for the ps3--rgb and whatever else u guys have been mentioning. thanks for the help
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post #377 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hufcane View Post

just bought the ps3 and i have the sony xbr5--ive been going thru so many threads that im getting dizzy. where can i find a list of what should be the settings for the ps3--rgb and whatever else u guys have been mentioning. thanks for the help

If your TV has RGB Dynamic Range set it to Full.
Set your PS3 to RGB Full
If your TV doesn't have that feature, set it both to Limited.
Set your PS3 to enable YCbCr SuperWhite to allow BTB, WTW.
RGB does not affect the YCbCr(movies) in any way unless you force it.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #378 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

If your TV has RGB Dynamic Range set it to Full.
Set your PS3 to RGB Full
If your TV doesn't have that feature, set it both to Limited.
Set your PS3 to enable YCbCr SuperWhite to allow BTB, WTW.
RGB does not affect the YCbCr(movies) in any way unless you force it.

My tv which is not a FP LCD, but is a SOny RPTV that has RGB dynamic range has a Full setting, but my point is and has been in this thread that if I set my PS3 to Full I get black crush and it is hard to see detail or sometimes at all in dark scenes of games.
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post #379 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

My tv which is not a FP LCD, but is a SOny RPTV that has RGB dynamic range has a Full setting, but my point is and has been in this thread that if I set my PS3 to Full I get black crush and it is hard to see detail or sometimes at all in dark scenes of games.

Not at all. Set your RGB Dynamic Range to Full and not Auto or Limited.
If you put up a 0-255 image then it should be a full 0-255 untouched.
I don't know why your TV is crushing blacks. True with the KDS-**A3000
and XBR4/5.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #380 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Not at all. Set your RGB Dynamic Range to Full and not Auto or Limited.
If you put up a 0-255 image then it should be a full 0-255 untouched.
I don't know why your TV is crushing blacks. True with the KDS-**A3000
and XBR4/5.

My post #367 and your post #370 which quotes mine explains why. I know it is for Blu Rays which are YCbCr, but games although RGB 8bit will crush blacks as well. It is not the correct setting to put the PS3 on Full and not just for movies but for games as well. And sure I can set my PS3 to Full and then calibrate, but then the result is the same as limited/limited which is the whole point of this discussion and my post # 367 and defeats the purpose of setting the PS3 to Full. Much easier to set the PS3 to limited and get the same results for both games and movies and not have to go back and change settings each time for each media.
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post #381 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

My post #367 and your post #370 which quotes mine explains why. I know it is for Blu Rays which are YCbCr, but games although RGB 8bit will crush blacks as well. It is not the correct setting to put the PS3 on Full and not just for movies but for games as well. And sure I can set my PS3 to Full and then calibrate, but then the result is the same as limited/limited which is the whole point of this discussion and my post # 367 and defeats the purpose of setting the PS3 to Full. Much easier to set the PS3 to limited and get the same results for both games and movies and not have to go back and change settings each time for each media.

I don't get it. RGB Dynamic Range only affects RGB outputs and leave the
YCbCr untouched. I also don't get how it crush blacks when RGB DR are turned
to Full instead of Auto or Limited.

Can you do me a favor and put this image in your PS3 and display it 100%
http://i.pbase.com/o6/78/287278/1/75...scaleStep8.JPG
If you set it on Limited on PS3 and Limited/Auto on your TV then it should
show the full 0-255 but really it's remapped (16 turns into 0 and 234 turns
into 255).
If you set the TV to Full and PS3 Full it should show 100% 0-255 untouched.
If you set your TV to Limited/Auto and PS3 to Full then it should show that
the black level is 16 and white level 235 which is clipped.
If I am wrong on all accounts can you elaborate.

P.S. Set the brightness to 50 first which suppose to be the blackest it can go without losing detail.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #382 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

I don't get it. RGB Dynamic Range only affects RGB outputs and leave the
YCbCr untouched. I also don't get how it crush blacks when RGB DR are turned
to Full instead of Auto or Limited.

Can you do me a favor and put this image in your PS3 and display it 100%
http://i.pbase.com/o6/78/287278/1/75...scaleStep8.JPG
If you set it on Limited on PS3 and Limited/Auto on your TV then it should
show the full 0-255 but really it's remapped (16 turns into 0 and 234 turns
into 255).
If you set the TV to Full and PS3 Full it should show 100% 0-255 untouched.
If you set your TV to Limited/Auto and PS3 to Full then it should show that
the black level is 16 and white level 235 which is clipped.
If I am wrong on all accounts can you elaborate.

P.S. Set the brightness to 50 first which suppose to be the blackest it can go without losing detail.

Give me a little bit as I am in on a break, but would more than welcome trying it. I might not get to it to later tonight.
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post #383 of 438 Old 04-15-2009, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Give me a little bit as I am in on a break, but would more than welcome trying it. I might not get to it to later tonight.

Sure thing . I've had this set before and have a chance to visit it every
now and again because I gave it to a relative. So I am not that rusty at
it . Also after testing it on the XMB, try putting in the AVSHD or any
HD calibrating disc. It should still be at 16-235 or 255 if SuperWhite is
enabled.Do not use SD-DVD disc to calibrate it though since it will show
that your brightness is way up like I did on Avia.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #384 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 05:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Sure thing . I've had this set before and have a chance to visit it every
now and again because I gave it to a relative. So I am not that rusty at
it . Also after testing it on the XMB, try putting in the AVSHD or any
HD calibrating disc. It should still be at 16-235 or 255 if SuperWhite is
enabled.Do not use SD-DVD disc to calibrate it though since it will show
that your brightness is way up like I did on Avia.

You claim to have a different display every other day. I doubt you gave anything to a relative.
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post #385 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

You claim to have a different display every other day. I doubt you gave anything to a relative.

Do you have a life? I guess following my post around is the only thing keeping
you entertain. Make some friends.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #386 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 12:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Do you have a life? I guess following my post around is the only thing keeping
you entertain. Make some friends.

I'm just trying to keep track of all your different claims.
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post #387 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

I'm just trying to keep track of all your different claims.

Yeah whatever keeps your lonely life happy.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #388 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Yeah whatever keeps your lonely life happy.

One day you claim to be the son.
One day you claim to be the father.
One day you claim to have fathered a child while in middle school.
One day you claim to have a Kuro.
One day you claim to have a Sony.
One day you claim to have a Panasonic.
One day you claim to have a Samsung.
One day you claim to have an LG.
One day you claim to have a Vizio.
One day you claim to have a CIH projector setup.

Another day...another story.
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post #389 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

One day you claim to be the son.
One day you claim to be the father.
One day you claim to have fathered a child while in middle school.
One day you claim to have a Kuro.
One day you claim to have a Sony.
One day you claim to have a Panasonic.
One day you claim to have a Samsung.
One day you claim to have an LG.
One day you claim to have a Vizio.
One day you claim to have a CIH projector setup.

Another day...another story.

Everyday you follow me around
Everyday you ..... oh wait that's your life.
It's really sad and pathetic seeing you are
way into this stuff. Take a break from the
computer screen and make some friends.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #390 of 438 Old 04-16-2009, 01:22 PM
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