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post #181 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 02:49 PM
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There appears to be a great deal of misinformation in this thread. Jay_Davis pretty much has this spot on. If you lack a test patten that has BTB (Blacker-Than-Black) and WTW (Whiter-Than-White) information in it, I'm not sure how you would understand some of these settings. I would suggest listening to those who understand the underlying standards involved, not those who try a setting and say "it looks better to me." Everyone is trying to help here with good intentions. Some just understand more of the details than others.

Points
1) First off, many people improperly think that RGB Full intensifies their colors. I can understand why this is. It is because the black level is moved down (i.e. black of 16 is now black of 0 I believe). If you lower your brightness setting by 10 or 20, it will give you the same illusion that your colors are deeper (because many of them are darker). This is inaccurate. Part of your shadow detail has been crushed when this happens. In other words, you traded being able to see details in the darkness (a real loss) with an illusion of more intense colors. This is similar to the torch burn modes of TVs in the stores (they look vibrant and contrasty, but you can't see much of anything in the shadows). If switching RGB limited to RGB full makes ANY dark part of your screen even darker, you likely just did something wrong. This is, I believe, the MAIN REASON many people incorrectly believe that RGB full gives them a better picture.

2) I used a GetGray calibration disc to determine which modes passed BTB and WTW. The ONLY mode on the PS3 that passed the BTB and WTW test was the YCbCr SuperWhite=on mode. RGB Full still clips the black values below 16 (it just remaps a 16 to 0). You test the BTB portion by getting a signal up that has BTB/WTW (as the GetGray disc does) and increasing the brightness to such a high (washed out) level to see if any details are present in the dark parts of the screen. All the color bars below 16 were the same in all RGB modes no matter how high I turned up brightness. This confirms that RGB full is not passing BTB.

3) RGB full on the PS3 appears to be a stretch (just like Jay_Davis told us). For those of you with TVs that you can set the RGB input to full, I suppose the stretch is just being canceled out by a shrink. This should effectively be the same as if you sent RGB limited and let the TV assume a normal RGB input. If there is no canceling factor, then the darker parts of the screen would be crushed (which I before stated was wrong). As I understand it there is no scenario where RGB full results in a more accurate picture for HDMI connections. RGB full is intended for a computer connection (DVI etc.), not on an HDMI high def TV. The best RGB Full can do is equal RGB limited for HDMI connections. For that reason, leave RGB set to limited for HDMI connections. Setting RGB to full only increases the likely-hood that you will crush details in the scene for HDMI connections. In addition, the less unnecessary processing the better.

4) Please remember that RGB Limited is the DEFAULT option in the PS3's menu. The RGB Full option didn't even appear in the early versions of the firmware. Do you really think Sony got this one wrong (and there was no way to output really dark details in games initially)? RGB full does not add any additional information in the dark and bright areas of the screen. It just stretches the existing information. Even after the firmware updates, RGB Limited is still the default RGB option.

5) Take a look at what turning SuperWhite does to a YPbPr output with a BTB test pattern. It doesn't significantly change the value of black at 16 when it is turned on, it just shows more bars below 16 (as long as your brightness is high enough). Nothing one can do with RGB shows the bars below 16. RGB full is clearly not doing the same thing for RGB as SuperWhite is doing for YPbPr .

6) You want to keep you alignment of black/white in games the same as your alignment in movies (i.e. 16 being true black). Blu-rays and DVDs are stored in the YPbPr color space. For that reason, you should pass movies as yPbPr if your TV supports it (again the less unnecessary processing the better). I believe that the games are in RGB. We've already established that SuperWhite shows BTB/WTW, and RGB Full just stretches the range. With RGB full on, true black would be a value of 0 in RGB, while true black would be a value of 16 with YPbPr. This means that you could not calibrate your TV to be accurate with both games and movie discs at the same time with your PS3. It would be a one or the other proposition. Forcing the movies to also remap to RGB would disallow the use of SuperWhite.

7) Extra processing (stretching/shrinking,remapping) can add color banding to the output. For this reason, keep RGB set to limited, and your DVDs outputting in YPbPr.

Here are the recommended options for HDMI (you will hear over and over again from the seasoned calibration veterans):

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limited
Super White - On

The only option I really see here is that you don't really NEED to turn SuperWhite on (it is more of a preference thing since a proper calibration tends to crush BTB/WTW anyway). Some people like to see a bit of the WTW area of clouds. See the GetGray manual for a discussion of this. ADDITION: If your set support Deep Color, you might also want to turn SuperWhite on for the enhanced colorspace availible through AVCHD discs (assuming you ever make any).

If you do not understand calibration, I suggest picking up Avia or DVE as a start. If your brightness and contrast/picture settings are off in the first place, little of these other changes mean much. If your image is too washed out, there are better ways of fixing it than using RGB Full. Start with the above settings and then calibrate it.

If you are still not sure who to believe, just stick with the PS3 default options (which are the same as what I have above just with SuperWhite=off).

I hope this post helps. Thank you to Jay_Davis for his valued input. He (and hwjohn) helped me to close some of the gaps of my understanding on the PS3 options. Now it all makes sense (to me at least).

My A2000 Settings for the S3 TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii.
My A2000 Lag Test & A2000 Lag Timing Estimations.
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post #182 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVBill View Post

There appears to be a great deal of misinformation in this thread. Jay_Davis pretty much has this spot on. If you lack a test patten that has BTB (Blacker-Than-Black) and WTW (Whiter-Than-White) information in it, I'm not sure how you would understand some of these settings. I would suggest listening to those who understand the underlying standards involved, not those who try a setting and say "it looks better to me." Everyone is trying to help here with good intentions. Some just understand more the details than others.

Points
1) First off, many people improperly think that RGB Full intensifies their colors. I can understand why this is. It is because the black level is moved down (i.e. black of 16 is now black of 0 I believe). If you lower your brightness setting by 10 or 20, it will give you the same illusion that your colors are deeper (because many of them are darker). This is inaccurate. Part of your shadow detail has been crushed when this happens. In other words, you traded being able to see details in the darkness (a real loss) with an illusion of more intense colors. This is similar to the touch burn modes of TVs in the stores (they look vibrant and contrasty, but you can't see much of anything in the shadows). If switching RGB limited to RGB full makes ANY dark part of your screen even darker, you likely just did something wrong. This is, I believe, the MAIN REASON many people incorrectly believe that RGB full gives them a better picture.

2) I used a GetGray calibration disc to determine which modes passed BTB and WTW. The ONLY mode on the PS3 that passed the BTB and WTW test was the YCbCr SuperWhite=on mode. RGB Full still clips the black values below 16 (it just remaps a 16 to 0). You test the BTB portion by getting a signal up that has BTB/WTW (as the GetGray disc does) and the increasing the brightness to such a high (washed out) level to see if any details are present in the dark parts of the screen. All the color bars below 16 were the same in all RGB modes no matter how high I turned up brightness. This confirms that RGB full is not passing BTB.

3) RGB full on the PS3 appears to be a stretch (just like Jay_Davis told us). For those of you with TVs that you can set the RGB input to full, I suppose the stretch is just being canceled out by a shrink. This should effectively be the same as if you sent RGB limited and let the TV assume a normal RGB input. If there is no canceling factor, then the darker parts of the screen would be crushed (which I before stated was wrong). As I understand it there is no scenario where RGB full results in a more accurate picture for HDMI connections. RGB full is intended for a computer connection (DVI etc.), not on an HDMI high def TV. The best RGB Full can do is equal RGB limited for HDMI connections. For that reason, leave RGB set to limited for HDMI connections. Setting RGB to full only increases the likely-hood that you will crush details in the scene for HDMI connections. In addition, the less unnecessary processing the better.

4) Please remember that RGB Limited is the DEFAULT option in the PS3's menu. The RGB Full option didn't even appear in the early versions of the firmware. Do you really think Sony got this one wrong (and there was no way to output really dark details in games)? RGB full does not add any additional information in the dark and bright areas of the screen. It just stretches the existing information. Even after the firmware updates, RGB Limited is still the default RGB option.

5) Take a look at what turning SuperWhite does to a YPbPr output with a BTB test pattern. It doesn't significantly change the value of black at 16 when it is turned on, it just shows more bars below 16 (as long as your brightness is high enough). Nothing one can do with RGB shows the bars below 16. RGB full is clearly not doing the same thing for RGB as SuperWhite is doing for YPbPr .

6) You want to keep you alignment of black/white in games the same as your alignment in movies (i.e. 16 being true black). Blu-rays and DVDs are stored in the YPbPr color space. For that reason, you should pass movies as yPbPr if your TV supports it (again the less unnessarily processing the better). I believe that the games are in RGB. We've already established that SuperWhite shows BTB/WTW, and RGB Full just stretches the range. With RGB full on, true black would be a value of 0 in RGB, while true black would be a value of 16 with YPbPr. This means that you could not calibrate your TV to be accurate with both games and movie discs at the same time with your PS3. It would be a one or the other proposition. Forcing the movies to also remap to RGB would disallow the use of SuperWhite.

7) Extra processing (stretching/shrinking,remapping) can add color banding to the output. For this reason, keep RGB set to limited, and your DVDs outputting in YPbPr.

Here are the recommended options (you will hear over and over again from the seasoned calibration veterans):

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limited
Super White - On

The only option I really see here is that you don't really NEED to turn SuperWhite on (it is more of a preference thing since a proper calibration tends to crush BTB/WTW anyway). Some people like to see a bit of the WTW area of clouds. See the GetGray manual for a discussion of this.

If you do not understand calibration, I suggest picking up Avia or DVE as a start. If your brightness and contrast/picture settings are off in the first place, little of these other changes mean much. If your image is too washed out, there are better ways of fixing it than using RGB Full. Start with the above settings and then calibrate it.

If you are still not sure who to believe, just stick with the PS3 default options (which are the same as what I have above just with SuperWhite=off).

I hope this post helps. Thank you to Jay_Davis for his valued input. He (and hwjohn) helped me to close some of the gaps of my understanding on the PS3 options. Now it all makes sense.

Excellent post! very informative information,i'm with you on everything you just said!.

Sony should really just name RGB LIMITED & FULL...HDTV & PC. seems to be more logical.instead people get the impression that RGB LIMITED is inferior to FULL when in actuality it's not.it's the standard of black level that everything is produced in today.
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post #183 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

Excellent post! very informative information,i'm with you on everything you just said!.

Sony should really just name RGB LIMITED & FULL...HDTV & PC. seems to be more logical.instead people get the impression that RGB LIMITED is inferior to FULL when in actuality it's not.it's the standard of black level that everything is produced in today.

I just purchased the 60" Sony 120hz SXRD. (60A3000) for under $1,500 at Fry's and was reading throught the thread. Information overload!!

Thanks for the post AVBill I'm going to do some checking on my settings. These sets have so many more tweaking options than my old set.
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post #184 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 04:20 PM
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excellent post AVBill. i knew this in the back of my mind, but was not totally sure, and i have always used the settings you recommended. your detailed post confirms it. i think that post alone should be stickied.

even though my Samsung LCD has the option of switching between full and limited as well, i use limited because i noticed extra color banding when both are set to full. therefore, i have always used limited.
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post #185 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

I just purchased the 60" Sony 120hz SXRD. (60A3000) for under $1,500 at Fry's and was reading throught the thread. Information overload!!

Thanks for the post AVBill I'm going to do some checking on my settings. These sets have so many more tweaking options than my old set.


Way more settings and welcome to the A3000 owners club. Had mine since Aug. and it is a great match for the PS3.
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post #186 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 06:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Way more settings and welcome to the A3000 owners club. Had mine since Aug. and it is a great match for the PS3.

Yup. I couldn't pass up the deal Fry's had and knowing it would be the last RP from Sony was kind of saddening but the display is awesome.

I'm still experimenting with the motion enhancer settings with different blu-rays and games, plus detail enhancer and all the other features. Some movies look absoluteley 3d like Rataouille as well as Plaent Earth on high setting.
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post #187 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

This is based on a DVD. Games are using RGB levels, so how do you use a calibration test for that?



By that logic the default of Superwhite set to "off" is better as well, since it wasn't available before the firmware.

Brandon

Except that number five explains the difference, unless I am not understanding.

5) Take a look at what turning SuperWhite does to a YPbPr output with a BTB test pattern. It doesn't significantly change the value of black at 16 when it is turned on, it just shows more bars below 16 (as long as your brightness is high enough). Nothing one can do with RGB shows the bars below 16. RGB full is clearly not doing the same thing for RGB as SuperWhite is doing for YPbPr
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post #188 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

Yup. I couldn't pass up the deal Fry's had and knowing it would be the last RP from Sony was kind of saddening but the display is awesome.

I'm still experimenting with the motion enhancer settings with different blu-rays and games, plus detail enhancer and all the other features. Some movies look absoluteley 3d like Rataouille as well as Plaent Earth on high setting.


Yeah I thought I did good getting it for 500 off MSRP. You got another 700 off if I remember correctly. Almost half full retail 6 months after release for one of the best HD RPTVs ever!

Uncharted looks amazing on this set as does so many BD movies and other PS3 games. COD4 is almost immersive reality.
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post #189 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVBill View Post

There appears to be a great deal of misinformation in this thread. Jay_Davis pretty much has this spot on. If you lack a test patten that has BTB (Blacker-Than-Black) and WTW (Whiter-Than-White) information in it, I'm not sure how you would understand some of these settings. I would suggest listening to those who understand the underlying standards involved, not those who try a setting and say "it looks better to me." Everyone is trying to help here with good intentions. Some just understand more of the details than others.

Points
1) First off, many people improperly think that RGB Full intensifies their colors. I can understand why this is. It is because the black level is moved down (i.e. black of 16 is now black of 0 I believe). If you lower your brightness setting by 10 or 20, it will give you the same illusion that your colors are deeper (because many of them are darker). This is inaccurate. Part of your shadow detail has been crushed when this happens. In other words, you traded being able to see details in the darkness (a real loss) with an illusion of more intense colors. This is similar to the torch burn modes of TVs in the stores (they look vibrant and contrasty, but you can't see much of anything in the shadows). If switching RGB limited to RGB full makes ANY dark part of your screen even darker, you likely just did something wrong. This is, I believe, the MAIN REASON many people incorrectly believe that RGB full gives them a better picture.

2) I used a GetGray calibration disc to determine which modes passed BTB and WTW. The ONLY mode on the PS3 that passed the BTB and WTW test was the YCbCr SuperWhite=on mode. RGB Full still clips the black values below 16 (it just remaps a 16 to 0). You test the BTB portion by getting a signal up that has BTB/WTW (as the GetGray disc does) and increasing the brightness to such a high (washed out) level to see if any details are present in the dark parts of the screen. All the color bars below 16 were the same in all RGB modes no matter how high I turned up brightness. This confirms that RGB full is not passing BTB.

3) RGB full on the PS3 appears to be a stretch (just like Jay_Davis told us). For those of you with TVs that you can set the RGB input to full, I suppose the stretch is just being canceled out by a shrink. This should effectively be the same as if you sent RGB limited and let the TV assume a normal RGB input. If there is no canceling factor, then the darker parts of the screen would be crushed (which I before stated was wrong). As I understand it there is no scenario where RGB full results in a more accurate picture for HDMI connections. RGB full is intended for a computer connection (DVI etc.), not on an HDMI high def TV. The best RGB Full can do is equal RGB limited for HDMI connections. For that reason, leave RGB set to limited for HDMI connections. Setting RGB to full only increases the likely-hood that you will crush details in the scene for HDMI connections. In addition, the less unnecessary processing the better.

4) Please remember that RGB Limited is the DEFAULT option in the PS3's menu. The RGB Full option didn't even appear in the early versions of the firmware. Do you really think Sony got this one wrong (and there was no way to output really dark details in games initially)? RGB full does not add any additional information in the dark and bright areas of the screen. It just stretches the existing information. Even after the firmware updates, RGB Limited is still the default RGB option.

5) Take a look at what turning SuperWhite does to a YPbPr output with a BTB test pattern. It doesn't significantly change the value of black at 16 when it is turned on, it just shows more bars below 16 (as long as your brightness is high enough). Nothing one can do with RGB shows the bars below 16. RGB full is clearly not doing the same thing for RGB as SuperWhite is doing for YPbPr .

6) You want to keep you alignment of black/white in games the same as your alignment in movies (i.e. 16 being true black). Blu-rays and DVDs are stored in the YPbPr color space. For that reason, you should pass movies as yPbPr if your TV supports it (again the less unnecessary processing the better). I believe that the games are in RGB. We've already established that SuperWhite shows BTB/WTW, and RGB Full just stretches the range. With RGB full on, true black would be a value of 0 in RGB, while true black would be a value of 16 with YPbPr. This means that you could not calibrate your TV to be accurate with both games and movie discs at the same time with your PS3. It would be a one or the other proposition. Forcing the movies to also remap to RGB would disallow the use of SuperWhite.

7) Extra processing (stretching/shrinking,remapping) can add color banding to the output. For this reason, keep RGB set to limited, and your DVDs outputting in YPbPr.

Here are the recommended options for HDMI (you will hear over and over again from the seasoned calibration veterans):

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limited
Super White - On

The only option I really see here is that you don't really NEED to turn SuperWhite on (it is more of a preference thing since a proper calibration tends to crush BTB/WTW anyway). Some people like to see a bit of the WTW area of clouds. See the GetGray manual for a discussion of this. ADDITION: If your set support Deep Color, you might also want to turn SuperWhite on for the enhanced colorspace availible through AVCHD discs (assuming you ever make any).

If you do not understand calibration, I suggest picking up Avia or DVE as a start. If your brightness and contrast/picture settings are off in the first place, little of these other changes mean much. If your image is too washed out, there are better ways of fixing it than using RGB Full. Start with the above settings and then calibrate it.

If you are still not sure who to believe, just stick with the PS3 default options (which are the same as what I have above just with SuperWhite=off).

I hope this post helps. Thank you to Jay_Davis for his valued input. He (and hwjohn) helped me to close some of the gaps of my understanding on the PS3 options. Now it all makes sense (to me at least).

what about the other settings, like bd1080p 24hz output(hdmi)? should that be automatic, or on?
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post #190 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 08:25 PM
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Never mind....

*White Flag*

Brandon
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post #191 of 438 Old 02-07-2008, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Yeah I thought I did good getting it for 500 off MSRP. You got another 700 off if I remember correctly. Almost half full retail 6 months after release for one of the best HD RPTVs ever!

Uncharted looks amazing on this set as does so many BD movies and other PS3 games. COD4 is almost immersive reality.

$1499, thank you Fry's! They have some great prices on the A2000 models (non-120hz) if anybody is shopping. I got addicted to the 120hz smoothness though and was happy to pay the premium for it.

Yup, Uncharted was the first sucker I popped in. Insanse detail in that game I watched The Rock already and parts of the Matrix and Transformers in HD as well, very cool.
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post #192 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

what about the other settings, like bd1080p 24hz output(hdmi)? should that be automatic, or on?

I haven't testing this personally, but here is the jist of my understanding for this setting (someone else may have more info on the topic):

If your display supports 24Hz input then turn this on (or leave it on auto). Otherwise turn it off. I've heard of some bugs with Disney Discs if you leave this in "auto" mode with TVs that do not support 24Hz (I'm not sure if those have been resolved yet).

My A2000 Settings for the S3 TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii.
My A2000 Lag Test & A2000 Lag Timing Estimations.
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post #193 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 11:04 AM
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Thanks AVBill for getting all this info with explanations into one place. Sony has gone out of their way to try to confuse people as much as possible. They have succeeded.
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post #194 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 12:09 PM
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When it came to what the RSX renders at, I would have to agree with CodeLogic and how the PS3 renderes internally with sRGB. Which uses the full color spectrum, which is what the "full" option represents. Just because the PS3 used the limited option from its inception and did not offer "full" from the get go, does not mean thats what the graphics are rendered at internally or that by using "full" you would be remapping(extra processing) to a smaller spectrum. Of course Sony would at least have the PS3 using the "limited" mode since the average consumer HDTV doesn't display 0-255.

Please explain how "limited" is the unprocessed signal compared to "full", when everything is rendered internally with sRGB using the full spectrum?
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post #195 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sonypete View Post

When it came to what the RSX renders at, I would have to agree with CodeLogic and how the PS3 renderes internally with sRGB. Which uses the full color spectrum, which is what the "full" option represents. Just because the PS3 used the limited option from its inception and did not offer "full" from the get go, does not mean thats what the graphics are rendered at internally or that by using "full" you would be remapping(extra processing) to a smaller spectrum. Of course Sony would at least have the PS3 using the "limited" mode since the average consumer HDTV doesn't display 0-255.

Please explain how "limited" is the unprocessed signal compared to "full", when everything is rendered internally with sRGB using the full spectrum?

I'm pretty sure yours and CodeLogic's posts are going to largely be ignored. That's why I've waived the white flag.

Brandon
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post #196 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 12:41 PM
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It's really quite simple.

Games "should be" rendered in the 0-255 space. If RGB is set to limited, the color range gets compressed to 16-235. If RGB is set to full, the color range remains at 0-255.

Basically, if your TV supports RGB full, use it. Honestly though, the difference between 0-255 on an RGB Full set and 16-235 on an RGB Limited set would probably be too small for most people to even notice or care. In the end, they should both look almost identical. The only difference is, 0-255 will give slightly more color definition.

Of course, I don't know how your TV will handle 16-235 Blu-Rays and DVD's if it's set to RGB Full. Maybe the TVs automatically detect that it's YCbCr and map it to the appropriate color space.

Also, there is no sense in using a DVD or Blu-Ray to calibrate for the RGB Full setting. They're restricted to the 16-235 color space...should it not make more sense to create a test pattern to be used within the XMB?

I'm going to try to ask JStevenson from Insomniac over on the GAF boards...maybe he's got a clue =\\.
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post #197 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 12:43 PM
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I'm pretty sure yours and CodeLogic's posts are going to largely be ignored. That's why I've waived the white flag.

Brandon

?????? not a very useful answer to my question. Please be useful to this thread discussion or don't post anything.

Thanks ex0du5 for backing up how the PS3 works and that by using "full" that your not adding extra processing or stretching anything, just outputting an un-touched 0-255 signal.
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post #198 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 12:47 PM
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It's really quite simple.

Games are rendered in the 0-255 space. If RGB is set to limited, the color range gets compressed to 16-235. If RGB is set to full, the color range remains at 0-255.

Basically, if your TV supports RGB full, use it. Honestly though, the difference between 0-255 on an RGB Full set and 16-235 on an RGB Limited set would probably be too small for most people to even notice or care. In the end, they should both look almost identical. The only difference is, 0-255 will give slightly more color definition.

Of course, I don't know how your TV will handle 16-235 Blu-Rays and DVD's if it's set to RGB Full. Maybe the TVs automatically detect that it's YCbCr and map it to the appropriate color space.

Do you know the purpose of the two color widths if that's what it is called? Is it for compression of the colors to save bandwidth over the air? I'm surprised they don't have a header in each frame that tells the set if it's full or limited so we wouldn't need to do this ourselves.

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Do you know the purpose of the two color widths if that's what it is called? Is it for compression of the colors to save bandwidth over the air? I'm surprised they don't have a header in each frame that tells the set if it's full or limited so we wouldn't need to do this ourselves.

Scott

No clue, honestly. Maybe they originally needed to store extra information in the byte used for color information. We'd need some expertise in the matter to find something like this out. I doubt it has anything to do with saving bandwidth over the air, as nothing was stored digitally in the early days anyways. I would think this issue would have been introduced with DVD.

Also, I agree it would be helpful to know whether or not a source is being rendered in the Limited or Full color space. We know that movies are currently in the Limited color space, but games are a mystery. Seeing as how all PC games use the Full RGB color space, I could only assume that console games behave exactly the same, but that the hardware is compressing the RGB Full color space to Limited. It wouldn't make sense for game developers to have to introduce software compression algorithms for every single game frame to be compressed to the Limited color space.

We need a game developer to confirm whether or not games on the PS3 render in Full RGB (which I assume they do), or Limited RGB.
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post #200 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 05:19 PM
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?????? not a very useful answer to my question. Please be useful to this thread discussion or don't post anything.

So you tell me not to post anymore simply for trying to warn you what's going to happen? Take a read through the thread and see when I tried to bring up some of the points you are bringing up now.

I mean, sheesh, okay, I won't post anymore. My fault for trying to warn somebody I guess.

Brandon
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post #201 of 438 Old 02-08-2008, 08:48 PM
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No harm done Brandon, I see where your coming from now, I wasn't trying to take a jab at anyone

But Code and another person, I forget the name but posted something simliar to Code, have a valid point about how everything internal, deals with the entire spectrum 0-255 due to how sRGB is largely handled, then after it is shot out of the RSX and right before being sent out of the PS3, it can then be processed down to "limited" or left alone with "full". Seems to me that "limited" is the one having to get extra processing not the other way around as I see stated recently.

Now I understand how limited is going to look better for a vast majority of HDTVs currently due to how they handle the signal. I just have an issue with describing the "full" option. If Sony could only have one setting available to use, it would be limited since majority of the HDTVs would deal with it correctly. But just because they offered the "full" option after "limited", doesn't mean it requires extra processing or that its stretching the spectrum, just means that there was a far larger demand for the "limited" option, thats all.
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Let's bring this all together (at least for HDMI TVs). My post (along with many others) is the calibration view of the PS3. It is supported by reproducible examples one can check with test patterns on discs. It is also consistent with the reports of some posters (such as rahzel) reporting color banding when they output RGB full.

The Testable Calibration approach yields the follow settings (RECOMMENDED)
Disc Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limited
Super White - On

However, some are more concerned with the possible range shrinking for RGB games. While I do feel this theory has academic merit, I am not aware of any objective tests we have that support it. Does anyone have any RGB tests (in game maybe) to prove this? Even if we can establish what the RSX chip is doing on paper, this doesn't mean the final output is the same. Not even all game developers (many of which interface with the PS3 hardware via APIs) would understand conclusively what the PS3s HDMI output is doing. My understanding is that Sony did design the PS3 for HDTVs. Monitors and SDTVs are likely an afterthought. Even if the RSX does render colors at RGB Full it is possible the PS3 compresses this down to RGB Limited for consistency in all cases (and then re-expands them to RGB Full when that setting is active). This is, of course, just wild speculation on my part. A Sony engineer on the PS3 hardware development team would probably be the most respected source for this info. If you subscribe to the Conjecture Gamer theory (which I do not currently) you still probably want to sync your games and movie discs. Since YCbCr doesn't stretch the range in any way, you probably would want to output discs in RGB as well (just to sync black and white levels). This is arguably incorrect for discs, but if your belief is RBG Full is better for games this is a compromise you might want to take.

The Conjecture Gamer RGB Full approach (NOT PERSONALLY RECOMMENDED)
Disc Output - RGB
RGB - Full
Super White - Doesn't matter, so leave it off I guess.

The first Testable Calibration settings are correct for DVDs and Blu-rays. If you plan to calibrate your TV, you will likely do this from DVDs or Blu-ray anyway. Sony likely ensured that RGB Limited would minimally (if at all) effect game colors since it is both the default setting and what most HDTVs would be expecting. Going with the Conjecture Gamer settings is not the best option for DVDs and Blu-rays, and unproven (to my knowledge) to be better for games. Given the information we have on this now, the choice is easy for me. YMMV.

My A2000 Settings for the S3 TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii.
My A2000 Lag Test & A2000 Lag Timing Estimations.
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post #203 of 438 Old 02-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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Let's bring this all together (at least for HDMI TVs).
However, some are more concerned with the possible range shrinking for RGB games. While I do feel this theory has academic merit...

I have been an engineer developing hardware and software systems for 15 years. I can assure you that a great deal of truth can be determined that you are writing off as "academic merit". Engineers do not assemble something, test it, then theorize. Engineers design "on paper", then build, then verify with test.

If this helps the discussion at all. We're talking about 8 bits per color channel with only three color channels. We're also talking about reducing the number of colors by 12.5%. I am a part time photographer and have purchased a film scanner that produces 12 bits per color channel and today you can get even lower cost models that produce 16 bits per color channel and some that add a fourth color channel. Add to this discussion that some special purpose video cards will render 24 bits per color channel. Late last year I believe it was Canon that produced the first four color LCD display that is supposed to produce the most accurate images ever. Why would they do this if the number of different colors does not matter all that much?

I think there is no out of whack concerns by anyone. There is a legit basis to the discussion. Can the human discern it or can our displays even reproduce it? I don't know because I haven't done the engineering "on paper" yet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVBill View Post

Let's bring this all together (at least for HDMI TVs). My post (along with many others) is the calibration view of the PS3. It is supported by reproducible examples one can check with test patterns on discs. It is also consistent with the reports of some posters (such as rahzel) reporting color banding when they output RGB full.

The Testable Calibration approach yields the follow settings (RECOMMENDED)
Disc Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limited
Super White - On

However, some are more concerned with the possible range shrinking for RGB games. While I do feel this theory has academic merit, I am not aware of any objective tests we have that support it. Does anyone have any RGB tests (in game maybe) to prove this? Even if we can establish what the RSX chip is doing on paper, this doesn't mean the final output is the same. Not even all game developers (many of which interface with the PS3 hardware via APIs) would understand conclusively what the PS3s HDMI output is doing. My understanding is that Sony did design the PS3 for HDTVs. Monitors and SDTVs are likely an afterthought. Even if the RSX does render colors at RGB Full it is possible the PS3 compresses this down to RGB Limited for consistency in all cases (and then re-expands them to RGB Full when that setting is active). This is, of course, just wild speculation on my part. A Sony engineer on the PS3 hardware development team would probably be the most respected source for this info. If you subscribe to the Conjecture Gamer theory (which I do not currently) you still probably want to sync your games and movie discs. Since YCbCr doesn't stretch the range in any way, you probably would want to output discs in RGB as well (just to sync black and white levels). This is arguably incorrect for discs, but if your belief is RBG Full is better for games this is a compromise you might want to take.

The Conjecture Gamer RGB Full approach (NOT PERSONALLY RECOMMENDED)
Disc Output - RGB
RGB - Full
Super White - Doesn't matter, so leave it off I guess.

The first Testable Calibration settings are correct for DVDs and Blu-rays. If you plan to calibrate your TV, you will likely do this from DVDs or Blu-ray anyway. Sony likely ensured that RGB Limited would minimally (if at all) effect game colors since it is both the default setting and what most HDTVs would be expecting. Going with the Conjecture Gamer settings is not the best option for DVDs and Blu-rays, and unproven (to my knowledge) to be better for games. Given the information we have on this now, the choice is easy for me. YMMV.


I agree. I am no expert and am confused by this, but I do know one thing and I will keep it simple. I have the 60in A3000. I also have a PS3. When I switched the PS3 to RGB Full while playing Uncharted, the dark scenes were almost unwatchable and extremely dark. Now many say to calibrate your tv to get rid of that black crush or what ever one calls it. Aren't they then saying to turn up the brightness? I can only go by what I have tried and what I see without any tech background and what I see isn't right.
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I agree. I am no expert and am confused by this, but I do know one thing and I will keep it simple. I have the 60in A3000. I also have a PS3. When I switched the PS3 to RGB Full while playing Uncharted, the dark scenes were almost unwatchable and extremely dark. Now many say to calibrate your tv to get rid of that black crush or what ever one calls it. Aren't they then saying to turn up the brightness? I can only go by what I have tried and what I see without any tech background and what I see isn't right.

That is really bizarre. From what I understand it would seem you should be seeing grayish blacks, not not grays crushed to black. When I migrated my HTPC from Svideo on an old CRT to DVI/HDMI to my new 52XBR4 I got serious black crush with nothing else changed. When I changed from Limited to Full the black crush went away. That makes sense to me, but what's happening to you doesn't make sense. Unless there is some sort of automated detection going on and forcing one side to Full might be causing you issues.

You'll never be able to correct for black crush by adjusting the brightness. I tried that and it didn't work. It makes sense to. The dark grays down to black are being clipped. No amount of brightness adjustment will take care of it.

I don't have a PS3 so I wouldn't know. I have been considering getting one to have a BluRay player. I'm not sure it's worth it though but that's another discussion entirely.

The way I see it, if you like what you've got, why change it?

Scott
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post #206 of 438 Old 02-09-2008, 05:50 PM
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You'll never be able to correct for black crush by adjusting the brightness. I tried that and it didn't work. It makes sense to. The dark grays down to black are being clipped. No amount of brightness adjustment will take care of it.

What you say here is incorrect. Black crush can be remedied by increasing brightness, while black clipping can not. Crush does not equal clip. On the PS3, RGB (both limited and full) Clips Blu-rays and DVD in the BTB and WTW ranges. If raising the brightness won't fix a black crush you are seeing, then something in the chain (maybe even the TV itself) is clipping the range.

For the RGB Full folks, you are likely going to need to ramp brightness up and picture/contrast down to make it look similar to a proper RGB Limited calibration (assuming your set does not automatically compensate for the RGB Full). Alternatively, you could just stick with the recommendation of RGB Limited...

UPDATE: Just to clarify, the crushing/clipping I'm taking about in this post is crushing/clipping added by the hardware. If we have an encode that was crushed during the mastering, then it is permanently clipped for all intents and purposes.

My A2000 Settings for the S3 TiVo, PS3, Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii.
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post #207 of 438 Old 02-10-2008, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
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What you say here is incorrect. Black crush can be remedied by increasing brightness, while black clipping can not. Crush does not equal clip. On the PS3, RGB (both limited and full) Clips Blu-rays and DVD in the BTB and WTW ranges. If raising the brightness won't fix a black crush you are seeing, then something in the chain (maybe even the TV itself) is clipping the range.

For the RGB Full folks, you are likely going to need to ramp brightness up and picture/contrast down to make it look similar to a proper RGB Limited calibration (assuming your set does not automatically compensate for the RGB Full). Alternatively, you could just stick with the recommendation of RGB Limited...

Gotcha. So there are two sources for black crush.

"just stick with... Limited" is not an option if your configuration is clipping due to the limited setting. I think you might be confusing what Full and Limited means. If you have a source that is outputting the full range it will be impossible to "just stick with ... Limited" to resolve black crush.

Scott
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post #208 of 438 Old 02-10-2008, 08:52 AM
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"just stick with... Limited" is not an option if your configuration is clipping due to the limited setting.

In what scenario would RBG limited cause a display to clip more than what the same display would clip in RGB Full? Isn't this a potential problem for RGB Full (not RGB Limited)? This seems to me like what you describe would NEVER be the case. Here is the test I posted earlier:

2) I used a GetGray calibration disc to determine which modes passed BTB and WTW. The ONLY mode on the PS3 that passed the BTB and WTW test was the YCbCr SuperWhite=on mode. RGB Full still clips the black values below 16 (it just remaps a 16 to 0). You test the BTB portion by getting a signal up that has BTB/WTW (as the GetGray disc does) and increasing the brightness to such a high (washed out) level to see if any details are present in the dark parts of the screen. All the color bars below 16 were the same in all RGB modes no matter how high I turned up brightness. This confirms that RGB full is not passing BTB.

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In what scenario would RBG limited cause a display to clip more than what the same display would clip in RGB Full? Isn't this a potential problem for RGB Full (not RGB Limited)? This seems to me like what you describe would NEVER be the case. Here is the test I posted earlier:

I have an HTPC running DVI/HDMI to my 52XBR4. By default, for whatever reason, the HDMI input was set to RGB Limited. That's when I observed the black crush and started researching on this forum for a resolution. The resolution, which others noted, was not to crank up the brightness (which had no effect on the black crush) but to change the HDMI input to RGB Full. This corrected the problem.

For reference here is my understanding of each setting on the XBR4.
RGB Limited = 16-235
RGB Full = 0-255

Now let's map it.

HDMI output level / RGB Limited value / RGB Full value
0 / 16 / 0 (true black in all color schemes)
1 / 16 / 1 (limited clips to black)
2 / 16 / 2 (limited clips to black)
3 / 16 / 3 (limited clips to black)
4 / 16 / 4 (limited clips to black)
5 / 16 / 5 (limited clips to black)
6 / 16 / 6 (limited clips to black)
7 / 16 / 7 (limited clips to black)
8 / 16 / 8 (limited clips to black)
9 / 16 / 9 (limited clips to black)
10 / 16 / 10 (limited clips to black)
11 / 16 / 11 (limited clips to black)
12 / 16 / 12 (limited clips to black)
13 / 16 / 13 (limited clips to black)
14 / 16 / 14 (limited clips to black)
15 / 16 / 15 (limited clips to black)
16 / 16 / 16
17 / 17 / 17
...
234 / 234 / 234
235 / 235 / 235
236 / 235 / 236 (limited clips to white)
237 / 235 / 237 (limited clips to white)
238 / 235 / 238 (limited clips to white)
239 / 235 / 239 (limited clips to white)
240 / 235 / 240 (limited clips to white)
241 / 235 / 241 (limited clips to white)
242 / 235 / 242 (limited clips to white)
243 / 235 / 243 (limited clips to white)
244 / 235 / 244 (limited clips to white)
245 / 235 / 245 (limited clips to white)
246 / 235 / 246 (limited clips to white)
247 / 235 / 247 (limited clips to white)
248 / 235 / 248 (limited clips to white)
249 / 235 / 249 (limited clips to white)
250 / 235 / 250 (limited clips to white)
251 / 235 / 251 (limited clips to white)
252 / 235 / 252 (limited clips to white)
253 / 235 / 253 (limited clips to white)
254 / 235 / 254 (limited clips to white)
255 / 235 / 255 (true white in all colors schemes)

If this is not how a limited setting will treat a full source, please provide your own table on how it works.

Scott
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post #210 of 438 Old 02-10-2008, 09:45 AM
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I'd just like to add something interesting.

On my 37" Sharp Aquos D40 series, RGB Full behaves exactly the same way as YCbCr. Limited, on the other hand, has the brightness increased drastically from these two settings. I just went ahead and calibrated the TV to RGB Full anyways, as I don't want to hold a calibration setting for RGB Limited videogames, and YCbCr movies.

One thing to note though, is that my PS3/TV do not pass BTB and WTW regardless of the setting.
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