RGB Full Range and Sony XBR4 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Easy question, what should this be set to either Limited or Full. I am using HDMI.

Sony XBR4 is one of the new top of the line 1080p LCDs.
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post #2 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 07:39 AM
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which setting looks better to you?
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post #3 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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FULL looked a little darker but I heard my tv can accept the FULL range
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post #4 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 08:23 AM
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LIMITED

Full is only for RGB monitors (usually DVI).
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post #5 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 08:30 AM
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if your tv accepts the full range then you should use it, it means you are send the tv the full range of colors possible from the source, you will have to tweak your tvs setting callibrations, I suggest using some of the test pattern included on Sony BluRay movies (like spiderman or talladega nights). Here on AVS you can find really good info on you tv's callibrations, play around with things and see what you like best,
my xbr2 is getting full color on games and forced super whites on movies, with calibration tips from AVS i get some great results

still let your own eyes make the choice
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post #6 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coneyparleg View Post

if your tv accepts the full range then you should use it, it means you are send the tv the full range of colors possible from the source, you will have to tweak your tvs setting callibrations, I suggest using some of the test pattern included on Sony BluRay movies (like spiderman or talladega nights). Here on AVS you can find really good info on you tv's callibrations, play around with things and see what you like best,
my xbr2 is getting full color on games and forced super whites on movies, with calibration tips from AVS i get some great results

still let your own eyes make the choice

this is how i have mine too, the full/limited setting only affects games/xmb
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post #7 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 09:41 AM
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I set mine to limited, when I had it set on full it created a black crush.
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post #8 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 09:56 AM
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set to full, recalibrate afterwards. i dont have the xbr 4, but this did wonders on my set. and it was already calibrated to begin with. there is test patterns out there to check and see if you are crushing your blacks. wasnt a problem with my tv. in the end though, its what you think looks best, not what other people tell you. calibrate on both settings and see what you like best........
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post #9 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 10:33 AM
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Found some info that might help you out -
RGB Full Range (HDMI)

[RGB Full Range (HDMI)] has been added as an option in (Display Settings) under (Settings).



If [Full] is set when using a TV that supports RGB full range, the picture quality of the game or video may be improved.


Limited RGB output signal is output in the range from 16 to 235.
Full RGB output signal is output in the range from 0 to 255.
Notes

* If black sometimes appears bright and sometimes appears pale on the screen when [Limited] is selected, set this option to [Full].
* If black appears dull on the screen when [Full] is selected, set this option to [Limited].
* This setting can be used only when [HDMI] has been selected in [Video Output Settings] under (Settings) >
(Display Settings).


Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)

[Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)] has been added as an option in (Display Settings) under (Settings).



Super-white signal can now be output when playing Blu-ray Discs (BDs), DVDs or AVCHD discs.


Off Disable super-white output.
On Enable super-white output.
Notes

* If image quality is reduced or if the image does not look right when this option is set to [On], set to [Off].
* This setting can be used only when [HDMI] has been selected in [Video Output Settings] under (Settings) >
(Display Settings). Also, [Automatic]* or [Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr] must be selected in [BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI)] under (Settings) > (BD/DVD Settings).
* The TV in use must support Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr input signals.

About x.v.Color

When [Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)] is set to [On], video content from AVCHD discs recorded in x.v.Color can be played with a wide color scale.
Notes

* A TV that is compatible with x.v.Color (xvYCC) must be connected using an HDMI cable.
* An AVCHD disc that was recorded in x.v.Color must be used.

The x.v.Color logo can be found on devices that support "xvYCC," which is an international standard for color space in moving images. An advantage of x.v.Color is that it can reproduce a wider color scale than the conventional standard.
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post #10 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 10:42 AM
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I use a DVI/HDMI cable.

When I set RGB to full, I get a green hue around bright areas, especially noticeable against a dark background. It is unwatchable, so I use limited, but the colours seem washed out. E.g. a crescent moon against a black night sky, the moon would almost be fully lime green.

Is it that my TV cannot accept full range?

Unfortunate as I watch a lot of upconverted SD DVD's over that input. I use component for Blu-ray so I don't have to deal with the washed out colours with RGB set to limited via the DVI input of my TV.

ANy ideas to fix this is much appreciated.
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post #11 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 10:52 AM
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I've searched the forums on how to use the Sony test pattern to check for black crush, but there are many different opinions on how to use it. Anyone here know definitively how the 7669 pattern is used?

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post #12 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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will test it tonight. I set it to Full last night and I watched the National Treasure 2 trailer and it seemed dark, when I set it to Limited it was a lot lighter.
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post #13 of 438 Old 11-06-2007, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coneyparleg View Post

if your tv accepts the full range then you should use it, it means you are send the tv the full range of colors possible from the source

This is incorrect.

Here's a reliable source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post10630977

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

So I just tested RGB @ full and you want to leave it as limit, unless you like to increase banding.

RGB @ Limit - Levels stay where they are. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 1, 1, 1 when done.
RGB @ Full - Levels get compressed. Y 1, CbCr 128 will be RGB 16, 16, 16 when done. (Best guess based on looking at image)
Full is different than the usual expansion where Y 16, CbCr 128 becomes RGB 0, 0, 0.

The best video quality is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

BTB is still passed when RGB is set to limit, just bring brightness up to see it. Then turn brightness back down where it belongs. When you set brightness based on RGB limit and then switch to RGB full, you will see the BTB stripe. This is because you just remapped Y 7, CbCr 128 (the BTB stripe) to a much higher value.

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post #14 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

This is incorrect.

Here's a reliable source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post10630977

ive read this info many many times, but my tv will pass btb and wtw with it set to full, BUT WILL NOT PASS BTB AND WTW WHEN SET TO LIMITED,

ive had my set calibrated twice, with two different guys, and both said full is the one to use if your tv supports it, i also called sony several times and linked them to that article and they said it was incorrect and if my tv supports full it will give me a wider color range.

- now im not discrediting anyone at all, but this is just what ive experienced, and we all know the techs who answer the phone at sony support are not that bright so i could be wrong

EDIT: MY TV USED TO PASS BTB AND WTW WHEN SET TO LIMITED BEFORE A RECENT UPDATE, BUT NOW THAT CHANGED
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post #15 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ad74 View Post

I set mine to limited, when I had it set on full it created a black crush.



what do you mean "black crush"?

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post #16 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Gaming View Post

what do you mean "black crush"?

It basically means that the display doesn't differentiate between very dark gray and black. In other words, shadow detail is buried or "crushed."
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post #17 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conan450 View Post

EDIT: MY TV USED TO PASS BTB AND WTW WHEN SET TO LIMITED BEFORE A RECENT UPDATE, BUT NOW THAT CHANGED

I will retest on the latest firmware. Are you set to RGB, YCbCr, or AUTO?

Previous tests have shown that the best video quality passing BTB and WTW is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On
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post #18 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I am set to

Output - Auto (why shouldnt this be set to just Auto)
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

Is this right
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post #19 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post

I will retest on the latest firmware. Are you set to RGB, YCbCr, or AUTO?

Previous tests have shown that the best video quality passing BTB and WTW is:

Output - YCbCr
RGB - Limit
Super White - On

Awesome thank you, i have been meaning to find that thread and bring up this issue

(^^thats how i used to have it and then one day bam no BTB and WTW so i switched to full and btb and wtw showed up on the test pattern i forget which update did it tho )

output - YCbCr
RGB - Full
Super White - on
TV: Sony 55A2000
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post #20 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conan450 View Post

ive read this info many many times, but my tv will pass btb and wtw with it set to full, BUT WILL NOT PASS BTB AND WTW WHEN SET TO LIMITED,

ive had my set calibrated twice, with two different guys, and both said full is the one to use if your tv supports it, i also called sony several times and linked them to that article and they said it was incorrect and if my tv supports full it will give me a wider color range.

- now im not discrediting anyone at all, but this is just what ive experienced, and we all know the techs who answer the phone at sony support are not that bright so i could be wrong

EDIT: MY TV USED TO PASS BTB AND WTW WHEN SET TO LIMITED BEFORE A RECENT UPDATE, BUT NOW THAT CHANGED

The PS3 doesn't pass BTB and WTW in RGB mode. Full stretches the standard range into the range a computer monitor expects. Unless you are using a computer monitor, set RGB to limited.

Just a note, you can calibrate a TV to work with "full" mode, but all the calibration is really doing is undoing the stretched color space "full" is creating.

Watch this 2.0 update change all this again to really confuse everyone.
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post #21 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

The PS3 doesn't pass BTB and WTW in RGB mode. Full stretches the standard range into the range a computer monitor expects. Unless you are using a computer monitor, set RGB to limited.

Just a note, you can calibrate a TV to work with "full" mode, but all the calibration is really doing is undoing the stretched color space "full" is creating.

Watch this 2.0 update change all this again to really confuse everyone.

yes it has been calibrated both ways and the only way it passed BTB and WTW for me was RGB FULL
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post #22 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 11:45 AM
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I'm getting confused now, I have a 40' XBR4


should the RGB be set to limited or full?

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post #23 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Gaming View Post

I'm getting confused now, I have a 40' XBR4


should the RGB be set to limited or full?

Im working on getting the best answer right now, ill keep you posted
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post #24 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an xbr4 also, hopefully we can clear up what we should set this items to:

Output - YCbCr or Auto
RGB - Limit or Full
Super White - On or Off
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post #25 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 07:38 PM
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Tested with FW 1.93 and HDMI to Sony KDSR-60XBR1 (1080i via HDMI):

Video Output Format = AUTO
(results in Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr selected on my set), enabling Super-White allows BTB and WTW to be passed (it is not passed otherwise). Recommend hard setting to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr to ensure Super-White. If your set does not support Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr you will still get a picture, but with a pink tint. RGB Full Range is not an option when set to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr.

Video Output Format = RGB results in some slight banding on a gray ramp test pattern but I did not find any visible banding when watching video. RGB Full Range LIMITED seems to be to correct setting as contrast and brightness settings stay the same as Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr. RGB Full Range FULL sets RGB to PC levels and displays settings must be recalibrated. Super-white is not an option when set to RGB and BTB and WTW were never passed.

These settings can be adjusted on the fly by hitting triangle during Blu-ray playback and selecting AV Settings.


edit: As soon as I exited the movie the PS3 notified me that the 2.0 update was now available. Downloading update now....
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post #26 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 08:09 PM
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No change with firmware 2.0
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post #27 of 438 Old 11-07-2007, 09:59 PM
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What about on a Sony kdf-e42a10. Should I use RGB full and super white? I know you guys are prob getting sick of this question, ha. Thx...
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post #28 of 438 Old 11-08-2007, 05:37 AM
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I have a Sony 50E2000 RP LCD and I use the following:

Video output = Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr
RGB = LIMITED
WTW = ON


But every so often I test it with full, and even though the picture is darker the colors are stronger...........But my question is, does anyone have the CROSS COLOR FILTER set to ON ?....what's this for ?

On a side note, Ratatoulle has an video/audio set up in the extras menu that's really nice.

Think before you speak....
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post #29 of 438 Old 11-08-2007, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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where is the WTW setting located, cant find that anywhere
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post #30 of 438 Old 11-08-2007, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slumpey326 View Post

where is the WTW setting located, cant find that anywhere


It's called Super-White

Think before you speak....
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