HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 718 Old 12-18-2006, 09:42 PM
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Just wanted to say thanks to fubarduck for his 2 cents. I love how people ask for your advice, than argue with you! As for all the people looking into these TV's, just face it:

1.) The newer HDTV's are only going to support the newer systems, PERIOD.
2.) If you wanna play older systems, just hook it up to an older TV or buy an expensive converter. Hearing how you guys think and justify that your new TV is fine is so beyond ridiculous.
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post #272 of 718 Old 12-19-2006, 08:21 AM
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2.) If you wanna play older systems, just hook it up to an older TV or buy an expensive converter. Hearing how you guys think and justify that your new TV is fine is so beyond ridiculous.

That's funny, all the radios I see on the market still support AM frequencies. I can even still buy a record player if I really want one. Is it really too much to ask that my new TV works like my old one? The TV companies don't seem to think so, hence the introduction of "Game Mode" in most newer models. I'm not arguing with anyone. I'd like to buy a reasonably priced scaler that fixes the problem. Unfortunately, even they are hard to get ahold of. I'd love to see a solution on the mass market that I could readily buy in the $200 or less range. I'm no fan of having two TVs in my living room.

Cush
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post #273 of 718 Old 12-19-2006, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Agent477 View Post

2.) If you wanna play older systems, just hook it up to an older TV or buy an expensive converter. Hearing how you guys think and justify that your new TV is fine is so beyond ridiculous.

Yeah, it's true that no amount of wishful thinking is going to make your TV lagless. At the same time, I can certainly understand why people do it. It's pretty absurd that you can buy a TV for over $1000, but that it can't do all the things that a normal TV can, and the manufacturer and seller offer no warning of that fact so that you find out by surprise after it's too late. You should be able to expect that if you buy a TV, it's going to do what a TV does at a bare minimum, especially if it's a really expensive TV. It's hard to believe that you just spent thousands on a TV that won't even play games like every other TV you've ever had.

Remember also, that while the newest generation of consoles support HD TVs, when this lag problem originated, the then-current generation of consoles was the PS2, Gamecube, and XBox, which, with the exception of the XBox, all did 480i for the most part. In other words, the TVs didn't even support the newest games, and didn't give any warning. The only real way to find out was to plunk down a hefty sum, take the TV home, and get a nasty surprise. And the manufacturers had to have known about the problem too. Even if, somehow, none of them ever hooked up a video game to their TVs, it's also a problem for people using seperate speakers and a 480i DVD player, as it causes the sound to be out of sync with the video. The manufacturers just figured that the number of people screwed by this wouldn't be enough to lower their profit, or to make it worth their while to give a warning.

While I buckled down and got an XRGB-2+ to solve the problem, I shouldn't have had to, and I certainly wasn't happy about it. People have a right to expect a basic amount of service, and to know what they're throwing their cash down on.
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post #274 of 718 Old 12-19-2006, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

That's funny, all the radios I see on the market still support AM frequencies. I can even still buy a record player if I really want one. Is it really too much to ask that my new TV works like my old one? The TV companies don't seem to think so, hence the introduction of "Game Mode" in most newer models. I'm not arguing with anyone. I'd like to buy a reasonably priced scaler that fixes the problem. Unfortunately, even they are hard to get ahold of. I'd love to see a solution on the mass market that I could readily buy in the $200 or less range. I'm no fan of having two TVs in my living room. Cush

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While I buckled down and got an XRGB-2+ to solve the problem, I shouldn't have had to, and I certainly wasn't happy about it. People have a right to expect a basic amount of service, and to know what they're throwing their cash down on.

I totally agree with what both of you are saying. I just wish people would complain to the manufacturers, not this forum....
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post #275 of 718 Old 12-19-2006, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Yeah, it's true that no amount of wishful thinking is going to make your TV lagless.

That is absolutely correct!

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Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

It's pretty absurd that you can buy a TV for over $1000, but that it can't do all the things that a normal TV can,

I agree completely!

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Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

and the manufacturer and seller offer no warning of that fact so that you find out by surprise after it's too late.

This is why I bought from Costo. Even if you cannot or choose not to, BestBuy and CircuitCity offered a 30 day (or 15?) no hassle return policy. There are few excuses for being disappointed and having to live with it unless you are upset about the way it handles those game systems that did not exist at the time you bought it. That might be an unreal expectation. I don't personally believe in "Future Proofing"

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You should be able to expect that if you buy a TV, it's going to do what a TV does at a bare minimum, especially if it's a really expensive TV. It's hard to believe that you just spent thousands on a TV that won't even play games like every other TV you've ever had.

Price has no bearing on quality. The price of virtually any given product at any given time (in America) is based solely upon the amount of money the intended market is willing to pay. The selling dollar amount of a product is often determined before the product is even made. Savings on production does not reduce the selling price, it increases profits. Gaming is NOT the core market for HDTVs. It is a niche market. With the 360 and now the PS3, that niche is growing and may be/become a real market but the cable/sat crowd is the historical market focus.

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The manufacturers just figured that the number of people screwed by this wouldn't be enough to lower their profit, or to make it worth their while to give a warning.

Yes, that is the way most businesses work. You cannot please all of the people all of the time. Think 80/20 rule. The best maybe 90/10.

[quote=The Deuce]While I buckled down and got an XRGB-2+ to solve the problem, I shouldn't have had to, and I certainly wasn't happy about it. [quote]

..and it didn't cost them a sale. In fact, you bought something else. You are a successful sale in their eyes.

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People have a right to expect a basic amount of service, and to know what they're throwing their cash down on.

Your rights are to not be mislead. If they said, in writing, that you were getting something, you should have it.

Your rights are to not buy it if you don't want it.

When you talk about rights, think Constitution. TV quality is rarely included in such documents.

I'm not trying to pick on you or even say I don't feel your pain. In fact, I agree with your opinion and disappointment over the quality I just think you have unreal expectations and those expectations have lead you to unhappiness (for which I truly feel empathy). I'm only responding in hopes that others do not experience this same ordeal.

It's very aggravating but the only way to get what you want is by NOT spending your money on anything that doesn't meet your wants and needs. Every time you plunk down more money you say that the way things are is acceptable. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I know that sounds a little harsh. I wish I could soften it a bit. We often buy things expecting more than we get. Sometimes we are mislead or the information is sorely lacking and that makes it very frustrating. I've been there and been through it and it sucks.

I spent $1300 at Costco for a Vizio 42" Plasma. I thought TVs were overpriced and the warranty and return policies absurd so I bought the cheapest 42" HDTV I could find from a place with a phenomenal return policy. So far, I'm really happy. Now prices are dropping everywhere. I like to think that people like me helped make that happen. Heaven knows the local Costco coudn't keep these thinghs on the floor.

Every dollar is like a vote, vote wisely and remember that there is no shame in not voting.
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post #276 of 718 Old 12-19-2006, 08:52 PM
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This is why I bought from Costo. Even if you cannot or choose not to, BestBuy and CircuitCity offered a 30 day (or 15?) no hassle return policy. There are few excuses for being disappointed...

That's my biggest issue, but it's not aimed at this forum. I did buy from Best Buy, I did call Samsung and tell them the problem (this is September 2004, I had a lengthy thread in the Rear Projection Forum before this thread was started), and I was assured by Samsung that a fix was "forthcoming" and the fix would not mean my having to buy a new TV. Based on that information, I decided not to return my HDTV within the return period. Now I'm out of warranty and the "fix" is the HLS series (I have a 2004 Samsung HLP).

All I have to fight Samsung is my word versus theirs and I'd rather avoid the hassle and buy a solution that works. I spent about $70 on an iScan Pro and close to $50 for a PS2 VGA Adapter. Add another $30 for a capture card for the PC. None worked. After that, my "research funds" were depleted with no gain. Of course, now that I've tried all those possibilities, someone has since found one that works. I'd love to get an XRGB2+ or a similarly priced solution. My complaint is that I can't find one for sale.

Still, none of these problems are the fault of this thread or anyone in it. I discuss my situation to share information. I probably saved a few people from buying some of the hardware I've tried. I probably talked a few people out of an HLP (or an HLR, yeah, their Game Mode is useless). The more we share information, the more people get the word.

Now if someone would just link to a readily available solution with an attractive price...

Cush
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post #277 of 718 Old 12-20-2006, 03:19 PM
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IGN awhile ago put out a list of TVs that were known to be laggy and tvs that were known to be good. Has anyone else put together a frequently updated list of TVs that have lag and TVs that don't? It would also be nice if you could leave feedback for each of the TVs listed... that way, you should get a "consensus" about which TVs have lag and which don't.

I haven't seen anything like this online, and it seems like an important issue... anyone know differently?
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post #278 of 718 Old 12-22-2006, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

Deuce,

I assume if your TV is about two years old, that you have an HLP model. They have no "Game Mode". When the HLR models came out, I called Samsung and they told me that the "Game Mode" in the HLR is equivalent to turning off DNIe and DNR in the HLP. It's not enough. The HLS is the first model that has a game mode that works.

As for game lag, I don't notice any at 480p and up. My measurement was the swing meter for Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour on the GameCube. Like Hot Shots Golf, it's impossible to hit at 480i. At 480p, it was no problem. If there's lag at the native resolution, it probably has no discernible effect on game play. I also use my computer via DVI without any lag issues.
Cush

I've really had my eye on the Samsung HL-S4666W and stumbling upon this thread has caused me a lot of pain, so I'm glad to hear you say the HLS series has a game mode that works. What is your basis for this statement, however? Has anyone here used the HL-S4666W or another size HLS and seen that it does not lag bad? I am mainly concerned about outputting XBox 360 content in 720p to the native 720p Samsung HL-S4666W set.

I also have my eyes on two sony's, the KDFE42A10 (reported to have no lag by readers at IGN, donno how reliable that is) and the Sony KDF42E2000. Anyone out there with Xbox 360 gaming experience using these sets? Info would be greatly appreciated.
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post #279 of 718 Old 12-22-2006, 07:12 AM
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It's not the 360 you have to worry about, it's the older systems like the PS2 and Gamecube. There's lag because the TV has to up-convert their video signal. Running the 360 at 720p should be no problem. The best advice for you is to take your 360 to the store and try it out for yourself. If the store won't let you, go someplace that will !!
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post #280 of 718 Old 12-22-2006, 08:00 AM
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What is your basis for this statement, however? Has anyone here used the HL-S4666W or another size HLS and seen that it does not lag bad?

Reports from other people in the Rear Projection forum. I can't say I've personally seen the HLS perform lag free because I don't have one. Your best bet would be to try it at the store just to be sure.

Cush
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post #281 of 718 Old 12-22-2006, 10:16 AM
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Hey everyone, I got a question.

I'm getting an LCD TV for Christmas, and until recently I had no idea that HDTVs had video lag issues. I played one in my dorm and was appalled at how it was so obvious and detrimental to my playing ability. I've been reading over this thread the past few days, and it looks as if I can avoid the lag problem almost entirely if I can get my system (Xbox) to output at 480p. This solved the problem for someone but he wasn't really clear what cables he was referring to.
I've been playing on an old TV with an RF adapter for years, and I don't even have my composites anymore so I can't test this: Will using the composite cables that came with the xbox allow me to change my video settings to 480p or will I need to buy a high-def A/V pack, component cables, VGZ cables, or something else?
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post #282 of 718 Old 12-22-2006, 02:33 PM
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Need component cables, they're the only ones that can support 480p and up
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post #283 of 718 Old 12-27-2006, 02:20 AM
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I'd just like to note how helpful this thread has been to me. I've been looking around at HDTVs for a few months now, and I stumbled upon this problem pretty early on in my research (I'm mainly buying a TV for games). It's a good thing I did too, because I'd never even heard of this problem before I started researching.

Most gaming magazines/web sites barely touch the issue, if at all (IGN is the only one I've seen that really gets into it, though there could be others I haven't seen), and the vast majority of gamers on gaming specific forum who discuss which HDTVs to buy for their new Xbox 360 or PS3, aren't even aware of it.

Even the TV manufacturers seem to leave out this important information, even though gaming is a huge selling point for HDTVs right now, and many of the TV descriptions themselves are specifically marketed as being great for gaming.

Anyways, I guess that's enough rambling for this post. Now if I could just ask one question...

From what I gather here, is the only solution to eliminating HD game lag the expensive iScan scalers that IGN has talked about? There is still no specific TV or product other than that that will completely eliminate this problem?

If so, I might just stick to gaming on my old SDTV for a little while longer. As much as I'd love to enjoy an HD quality picture, I don't know if it's worth it to me if it will put me at a disadvantage in online gaming, even if I don't easily notice the difference.
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post #284 of 718 Old 12-27-2006, 10:10 AM
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I have a question. Does lag vary from game to game?

If I say play Guitar Hero,. and it appears ok, will say Tekken 5 be the same way, or could tekken 5 have more lag then guitar hero?
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post #285 of 718 Old 12-27-2006, 12:59 PM
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Greetings,

My question (appologies if this is posted somewhere obvious, I've looked and can't find anything yet) is about HTPC gaming with a modern HDTV.

My goal with HDTV is mostly:
1: Huge , high res slideshow. I'm a photographer and love to see my and friends' work in a community setting.
2: PC games running at 1920x1080

I can't seem to figure out what hdtv set supports this well... I know the new Sonys (A2000 & XBR2) overscan and you need to compensate in software, and I know the samsung rp tv's service menu allows you to disable overscan, but these dlp's will probably suffer major lag.

However, I'd like something with pixel to pixel mapping (no overscan) and relatively low lag...

Recommendations ? or am I out of luck ?

Thanks in advance, feel free to PM me too.
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post #286 of 718 Old 12-27-2006, 10:07 PM
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I was just wondering, would an EDTV be as good as an SDTV for lag, or would it suffer from this problem as well?
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post #287 of 718 Old 12-28-2006, 03:35 PM
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Forgive me if someone already answered this question. Will playing your old xbox or PS2 games on a Xbox 360 or PS3 solve some of the Lag problems?
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post #288 of 718 Old 12-28-2006, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by barakus7 View Post

Forgive me if someone already answered this question. Will playing your old xbox or PS2 games on a Xbox 360 or PS3 solve some of the Lag problems?

X-Box games on an X-Box 360 will solve the lag problems.

PS2 games on a PS3 will not solve the lag problems. Infact, it can make them worse:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753069
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post #289 of 718 Old 12-29-2006, 01:12 AM
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I was just wondering, would an EDTV be as good as an SDTV for lag, or would it suffer from this problem as well?

I think this is a good question. Anyone have an answer to this? I'm specifically interested in 480i lag.

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post #290 of 718 Old 12-29-2006, 01:18 PM
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Does display size factor into lag amount? I'm interested in getting a 32" and want to know if I have to be concerned with it.
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post #291 of 718 Old 12-31-2006, 01:16 PM
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This thread is very informative. Thank you very much for all the Help Fubarduck and others; great FAQ/discussion indeed.
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post #292 of 718 Old 12-31-2006, 03:58 PM
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Does anyone know of a cheap PS controller "delay box"? It seems a simple delay of the controller signal to the PS box could allow to calibrate out the difference if not available in the SW (such as DDR). The Guitar Hero II cal function does this and has been a total fix for me and I do the cal right before playing as I've seen the times vary from 15ms to as much as 45ms on the DLP I'm using. Adding any delay to the AV would only make things worse, really it needs to be "advanced" - so instead, I'm trying to delay the controller signal... I figure I just need to make my delay cable, say, s=2e8*25e-3=about 5000km long!
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post #293 of 718 Old 12-31-2006, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVRocker View Post

Does anyone know of a cheap PS controller "delay box"? It seems a simple delay of the controller signal to the PS box could allow to calibrate out the difference if not available in the SW (such as DDR). The Guitar Hero II cal function does this and has been a total fix for me and I do the cal right before playing as I've seen the times vary from 15ms to as much as 45ms on the DLP I'm using. Adding any delay to the AV would only make things worse, really it needs to be "advanced" - so instead, I'm trying to delay the controller signal... I figure I just need to make my delay cable, say, s=2e8*25e-3=about 5000km long!

I think you are going in the wrong direction. what you are seeing on the display has already happened in the game. by delaying your controller imputs you would be making it worse. someone correct me here if i'm wrong but I believe that what your gh game is doing is taking your display lag into consideration by delaying the beat and allowing more time or rather and advanced window for your inputs.

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post #294 of 718 Old 01-01-2007, 08:01 AM
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I doubt Guitar Hero II delays the controller signal. It probably puts the "dots" on the screen slightly ahead of the sound, based on your calibration. That way you're not too "late" when you hit the button.

Cush
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post #295 of 718 Old 01-01-2007, 11:10 AM
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Sage11x, Thanks for correcting that, I think you are right, the contrller delay just ADDS to the AV delay making it worse. I need to add something to the terminology: "expect strobe" - that is the actual real time where the SW is expecting the button to be pressed. One thing I had meant to do was disagree with any earlier posts that adding any delay to the audio using a high end receiver would correct the lag effect - it would just sync up the sound to be just as bad as the video! - it is a slightly different topic, I was assuming the audio and video are in sync already and do not believe that is the chief problem although they should always be synced - I am not willing to "play by the music" or "play by the video" ignoring the other - of course first one must sync up the AV if necessary, to me that is mandatory.

I realized what the GHII is really delaying the "expect strobe" for registering the controller input - is all done within the SW as far as any "waiting". I drew up a little timing diagram (I hope this works with non-fixed width font):

PS2 sends "Dot" ooooxooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"Dot" gets to screenooooooooxooooooooooooooooooooooo
User button press ooooooooxooooooooooooooooooooooo
PS2 receives press ooooooooooooxooooooooooooooooooo
PS2 "expect strobe" ooooxoooooooyooooooooooooooooooo

|-----| AV delay

|-----| controller delay

So the PS2 can't know where to put the expect strobe without a calibration routine... if it is putting it where I drew the "x" (pretty much right with or just after the "PS2 sends dot") then of course the "PS2 receives press" is far to late as illustrated, where the AV delay has added to the CTRLR delay (both are bad.) The SW expect strobe needs to be placed at "y" after calibration.

My bigger point is that delays (even 100's of ms) are inevitable in any system and so a timing calibration routine must exist in the SW and should work perfectly - one can't expect systems to have small or no delays or you'll always be fighting a losing battle. I think an AV delay of even 1 full sec. (!) could easily be made essentially transparent to the player. This doesn't help exisiting DDR games that don't have the cal code - sorry, still working on it but I don't believe there is a way outside of the SW itself - better call Konami right away if we're to get it in the next versions!
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post #296 of 718 Old 01-01-2007, 11:19 AM
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I try to fix the digram, read much like before, let me know if unclear, thanks.

ooooxooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
ooooooooxooooooooooooooooooooooo
ooooooooxooooooooooooooooooooooo
ooooooooooooxooooooooooooooooooo
ooooxoooooooyooooooooooooooooooo

ooooxoooxooooooooooo (AV delay)
ooooooooxoooxooooooo (controller delay)
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post #297 of 718 Old 01-02-2007, 07:42 AM
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Thanks for this info!
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post #298 of 718 Old 01-05-2007, 06:03 PM
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Fubarduck, I just asked my Japanese neighbors to obtain a XRGB-3 for me. Fumiya's brother, who is a system engineer in Osaka, the same city of Micomsoft, will try to find one. I'd like to know however if it is still possible to purchase one of these in Japan or have they gone the way of the XRGB-2+ dodo already?

How would you compare both of them? I have read your FAQ already and it seems to me as if the XRGB-2+ might be the better option, albeit impossible to find. Have I missunderstood your FAQ? If given a choice, would you settle for the XRGB-2+ or the XRGB-3?
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post #299 of 718 Old 01-09-2007, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_HDTV View Post

I have read your FAQ already and it seems to me as if the XRGB-2+ might be the better option, albeit impossible to find.

I don't know if this will help you or not, but I've seen a couple of XRGB2+ units for sale on Yahoo Auctions Japan within the last couple of days. Might be worth checking out as you're right--they are very difficult to find here.
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post #300 of 718 Old 01-11-2007, 01:40 PM
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Nice thread. I was able to tell my friends why they suddenly sucked at Donkey Konga (we thought it was because the game was stretched widescreen).

I'm considering upgrading my SDTV to EDTV, because I don't want a 360 nor do I need a PS3. But would like to play my Wii/Gamecube and PS2 in 480p. However, I also wanted 16:9 support.

Does anyone know of any widescreen 480p TVs? I can only find HDTV widescreen, but since I only have a Wii, I don't want to worry about the 480p to 720p lag (as slight as it may be).
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