HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 06:36 AM
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I've been living with game lag on my sammy HLR5078W for over a year and a half and have finally decided enough is enough... I plan on upgrading my HDTV this spring when the 2007 samsung DLPs and flat panel LCDs are released, however I have a question to which I have not been able to find an answer. I currently have my Xbox, Wii and PS2 systems connected to a Pioneer Elite VSX72TXV via component and my PS3 connected to the VSX72TXV via HDMI. The reciever converts all of the component (and the PS3 HDMI) to the single HDMI connection I run to my TV. My concern with upgrading my TV is that I will still be sending all of my video signals to the TV via HDMI and the only information I could find on samsungs "Game Mode" is that it can be enabled on composite, s-video, and component inputs and not necessarily the HDMI input... This will be a huge problem for me as I will have to re-wire my entire HT setup if I have to run the individual consoles directly to the TV... Does anyone have any insight as to enabling game mode on the sammys HDMI connections and/or will this be supported in the 2007 models? Also while on the topic are the flat panel LCDs better overall for gaming lag than the rear projection DLPs? This could sway my decision between the two technologies when I buy my next set... Thanks!
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post #302 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 07:36 AM
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"Game Mode" might or might not mean anything. I have a Sony KDLV26XBR1, and performed an objective lag test on it with and without game mode enabled, and found it to lag approximately 5 fields behind regardless of the game mode or other scaler options being on or off. Game mode seems to do absolutely nothing but disable the DRC Palette, which has no effect on lag at all. The DRC Palette just makes jaggies in games more pronounced when it's on.

The lag test I used was similar to the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread with the timecode video playing on both a computer screen and the TV at the same time, but I used a CCD surveillance camera to show the computer screen on the TV screen because my computer has no video output. Testing with a CRT TV proved this to be a valid test method, at least with the CCD camera I used.

I have mixed feelings about that amount of lag, it doesn't seem very noticeable, yet when I do the math, 5 fields is 1/12th of a second, or about 83ms, and my normal reaction time is about 220ms, so the extra lag effectively makes my reaction time 37% slower. I feel like my reaction time sucks enough already without that lag on top .

Still, that scaler makes stuff sooooo pretty that it almost makes up for the 83ms that it uses up.
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post #303 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 09:27 AM
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I'm "assuming" that the game mode on the sammy is different than that on your sony. According to samsung game mode will reduce lag, but I haven't performed a lag test yet on my HLR5078. I know that the 2005 sammys are notorious for the huge amount of lag they introduce. I have guitar hero 2 which I haven't played yet (I wanted to finish 1 first) so I may pop that in and run it's calibration to see what the delay looks like. As a side note I've had to introduce a significant audio delay in my receiver for lipsync when watching TV/DVDs and the same applies to my gaming systems. I believe the 2006 sammys are much better than the 05s but I'm really curious as to what the 2007s will be like.
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post #304 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 11:02 AM
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Wow, I just noticed something cool on my TV. I checked to see what kind of signal it thought it was getting from my SNES, and where it would normally say 480i, 480p, or 720p, it said nothing but NTSC (SNES and many other older consoles are 240p). So it obviously knows it's something different. I then checked the scaler options, and they're all greyed out! This seems to mean that this set doesn't attempt to deinterlace 240p sources at all (they're progressive, so they don't need to be). That would mean no lag at all on most of my games, I own very few games that are 480i only. Another Sony LCD that I took back for refund (KDL26S2010) tried to deinterlace 240p with all kinds of annoying artifacts as a result, such as everything "bouncing" up and down when scrolling, and fake sprite transparency via flickering just turning into fine horizontal lines (one of many reasons it went back to the store, another reason was very bad and annoying black crushing).
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post #305 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 11:33 AM
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Well i don't know if this question has been addressed (i read about 6 pages). I have a sony 60" lcd rear projection xbr2 and it upscales to 1080P. I have noticed lag when i play R6:vegas. the xbox will not let me display in 1080P, it will in 1080i and 720p. So my question is it better to display in 1080i or 720p? Any advice is welcome, also should i use game mode?? i am very ignorant so thanks in advance
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post #306 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 12:05 PM
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Hey, has anybody tried a 480p widescreen EDTV? I've been thinking of trying to get one as a secondary TV (if I can find one). Do 480p TVs lag when displaying 480i, or are they capable of doing so natively? Is it even possible to get them anymore?
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post #307 of 718 Old 01-12-2007, 01:32 PM
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With the amount of people asking about and experiencing lag it seems like the manufacturers should be giving consumers more information about the average video processing delay that their devices introduce based on the signal recieved... So, how do we go about driving this message back to the manufacturers?

As to the 480p EDTV question, I think the answer will probably be very little lag (not enough to be noticeable) but the only real proof is in testing... A 480p set still has to de-interlace a 480i signal hence introducing some latency, however that latency should be insignificant when compared to de-interlacing a 480i signal and then converting it into a 1080p image (and processing that 1080p displayed image so the 480i doesn't look quite so bad.)
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post #308 of 718 Old 01-13-2007, 02:28 PM
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Sharp has announced a series of 1080p LCDs (GP1U series) coming out in March with features specifically for video game consoles. It includes what they call "Vyper Drive" for reducing game lag. There's a discussion thread over on the LCD forum here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9453900

Or you can check out the press release here:

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/Fun...642-34,00.html

We don't know much about these sets yet, but they are worth keeping an eye on.
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post #309 of 718 Old 01-14-2007, 09:06 PM
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sanctified brings up an interesting question. With all the upconvert HT Receivers out there do any of them perform an upconvert from 480i to 720p or 1080p without lag?

can't find an XRGBwhatever2

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post #310 of 718 Old 01-15-2007, 02:10 PM
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Nice. Sharp making a TV specifically for gaming lag, even if it turns out not to work that well, shows that they're starting to genuinely pay attention to this problem, so we should be seeing more perfect solutions as time goes by.
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post #311 of 718 Old 01-15-2007, 10:54 PM
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Ok I was reading on another thread here on the forum and I've got what may be the dumbest question ever. If I have an Xbox360 that is outputting 720p and I connect this to my 720p LCD tv that has an actual resolution of 1366 by 768 will this cause lag?
This may not really be an appropriate question for this thread but I guess what I'm really asking is why is everything 720p if all 720p fixed pixel displays have 768 lines of resolution. Or am I right in assuming 720p denotes a 768 line display?

I mean a 480p display has 480 lines of res
a 1080p display has 1080 lines of res
why do all 720p displays have 768 lines of res?

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post #312 of 718 Old 01-16-2007, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brumma View Post

I don't know if this will help you or not, but I've seen a couple of XRGB2+ units for sale on Yahoo Auctions Japan within the last couple of days. Might be worth checking out as you're right--they are very difficult to find here.


I'll tell him to look out for those as well. Thanks for the heads up.
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post #313 of 718 Old 01-16-2007, 07:49 AM
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First of all, thank you to this thread. You stopped me from buying a samsung DLP about a year ago, and I can't thank everyone here enough. I play a lot of old consoles, so I would have killed myself had I purchased an HDTV I couldn't game on.

Secondly, I wanted to post my test results on Guitar Hero II for the SXRD XBR2 60". I took my ps2, giant plastic guitar, and the game to the store last night to use the game's lag test, along with my composite video cables. WIth game mode turned on, my first test (I haden't played in a while) was .060 seconds of processing lag. after a few tests in the teens, my last tests were .007 and .006. going in to the test, I considered that anything over .016 to be unacceptable, and I got a number that was a little more than 1/3 of that. With lag of less than 1/2 a frame, I think this tv will do quite nicely for legacy gaming.

I do have another question though: do I properly understand that lag on a 480p source will be less than the lag on a 480i source?
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post #314 of 718 Old 01-16-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
I do have another question though: do I properly understand that lag on a 480p source will be less than the lag on a 480i source?

Definitely. I have a 2004 Samsung DLP and Guitar Hero II clocks in at only about 20ms lag at 480p. At 480i, those kinds of games are unplayable.
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post #315 of 718 Old 01-17-2007, 12:53 PM
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I have a Acer AT3720 LCD TV (37inch, came out in October 2006 in Europe, rather low Price approx 900USD), so far everything is fine except playing the PS2 (hooked up with component cables), would a Iscan Pro enhance my picture (i don't care about lag)? Or is the integrated deinterlacer/scaler already better and the iscan pro too old? I read a lot mixed opinions about this. I tried a friends PS2 with the HDTV Player Disc and the result was quite good, except that the picture couldn't be streched to 16:9, but the colors are very vibrant, could i expect similar results from an Iscan pro (not the same since it's native progressive, but mybe close), for sure i know that my TV 480i picture suffers from colors less vibrant and some artifacts. Thanks for your answers.
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post #316 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 10:24 AM
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I'm a big Halo 2 and Gears of War online gamer. I noticed a big drop in my game play when I hooked up my Xbox360 to my Samsung HL-S5086W via component. My suggestion is to go with VGA to reduce the amount of lag, and turn Game Mode ON. Although, this will help in reducing lag, it's not the solution to have 0ms of lag like using a good old fashion CRT.

How did I come to this conclusion? I ran 30fps video file on my laptop to my Samsung HL-S5086W with Game Mode ON and OFF using S-Video and VGA, and took photos of my results. List of my results are show below:

S-Video, Game Mode OFF: 99-132ms (3-4 frames)
S-Video, Game Mode ON: 33-66ms (1-2 frames)
VGA, Game Mode OFF or ON: 33-50ms (1-1.5 frames)


I have pictures to prove this, but since I don't have more than 5 posts, I can't post them.

I noticed several new settings when using a VGA on my TV. I'm wondering if the rescaling of these different settings effect lag. Please keep in mind my results are rough order estimates. It only gives a feel of the range of lag per setting.

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post #317 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 12:07 PM
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I have the Westinghouse 27w7, and I was wondering if I would get any lag with a Nintendo Wii connected with the component cables?
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post #318 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 01:42 PM
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Good find, phazeshift78! How did you perform your test?
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post #319 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Good find, phazeshift78! How did you perform your test?


My laptop has two outputs: VGA and S-Video. My first step was to basline the output of my laptop with a CRT. So, my CRT was connected to my laptop via VGA to baseline my test. I ran both my laptop screen and my CRT simulatineously, showing my Windows desktop. I then ran a 30fps counter (a clock) which showed on both screens. An example of what the clocked showed: 00:00:12:20 , where the first and second (20) least signficant digits increased every 1/30 of a second, and the next digits (12) increased every second. So, as the clock counted up, I took pictures with my camera to capture the counts on both screens side by side. If they were in sync, then both clocks should show the same time. If they were off, you can see the time difference between the clocks between the screens. For example. If my CRT showed 00:00:12:25, and my laptop showed 00:00:12:20, then there was a 5 frame shift (or lag) between my CRT and Laptop screen.

I ran my baseline with my CRT and the photos I took showed no lag. Bot screens showed the same number every time I took a picture. But when I ran the same test on my DLP, I got signficant different numbers.

I got the idea for this test through a guy who's done this test with LCDs. I would post his website, but I can't post links yet. Just google 'HDTV Lag' and it should show up. My pictures are posted on his google site. I don't want to take credit for creating test method and want to make clear that I just copied the test from someone else who's done it.

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post #320 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 03:22 PM
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Thanks, I've read about those techniques before. I didn't consider you were using s-video and VGA!

It's a good test - I wonder if Circuit City or Best Buy would mind if a customer brought in their laptop and a camera to test out TVs before they buy?

I wonder how different the results would be if you had a video running in the background. It would be interesting...
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post #321 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Thanks, I've read about those techniques before. I didn't consider you were using s-video and VGA!

It's a good test - I wonder if Circuit City or Best Buy would mind if a customer brought in their laptop and a camera to test out TVs before they buy?

I wonder how different the results would be if you had a video running in the background. It would be interesting...

Well, they guy who came up with the idea went to a video store with his laptop and took pictures of different models, eventually purchasing the LCD with the leaset significant amount of lag. I would think the store would more than happy to let you run the tests, since it would make them more knowledgable about the performance of the HDTVs they sell.

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post #322 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 04:58 PM
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Here are my photos of my tests. I've taken at least 3 or more photos of each setup, but I posted the best ones for each.


CRT and Laptop via VGA


HL-S5086W and Laptop via S-Video, Game Mode OFF


HL-S5086W and Laptop via S-Video, Game Mode ON


HL-S5086W and Laptop via VGA, Game Mode OFF or ON



Here's the guy's website who I got the idea from...
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/

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post #323 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 06:04 PM
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I see no pics... Just host them at a site like this


Also, I will repost my question:
I have the Westinghouse 27w7, and I was wondering if I would get any lag with a Nintendo Wii connected with the component cables?
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post #324 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 06:42 PM
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Looks like your picture URLs got mangled! Anyways, thanks for the last link.

I just picked up an NEC 20WMGX2 20" widescreen LCD monitor. From the tests I've read and the anecdotes from owners, the lag is pretty good - average of less than a frame (12 ms), with occasional 32 ms at the worst. Good enough for now!
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post #325 of 718 Old 01-19-2007, 07:09 PM
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For that test, you don't need a TV out on the laptop. I used a cheap black and white CCD type spy camera with composite output, and pointed at the computer screen to get the clock display onto the TV screen. I tested it out on a CRT and it showed zero lag, so it is valid. You could even use some real clock rather than a video this way, provided you could find one with hundredths of a second readout in big enough digits. That might even greater precision in measuring the lag VS the video with only 30ths of a second.
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post #326 of 718 Old 01-21-2007, 04:34 PM
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Okay, I just tested the lag on my own Samsung's (an HLP model) VGA port. I tested it by using my PC's S-video out, and sending that to a regular CRT TV, while sending its VGA out to the Samsung. Then I ran the frame count video and took snapshots with my digital camera. I changed my PC's resolution to test different resolution signals going to the TV:

720p: This is my TV's native resolution. It lagged 1-2 frames each snapshot, with it tending towards 2 a bit more often. Based on this, I'd say it's behind about 1.6 frames in a 30 fps game, which comes out to about 53 ms. This might be the case with all the HDTVs out there, but this is, I believe, the first actual tested confirmation that the Samsungs *do in fact* experience a bit of lag even in their native resolutions.

800x600: It lagged 2 frames in most snapshots, and occasionally 3. I'd guess it's somewhere around 2.2 frames behind, or about 73 ms lag. I didn't notice any difference between Expand mode and 4:3 mode. I didn't test at 640x480 (480p) because it's pretty hard to even operate the PC at that resolution, but I think it would probably be almost exactly the same.

I'd like to run a test to see how much lag there is running a 480i signal to my Samsung's VGA port through my XRGB-2+. To do that, I'll just take the S-video signal that goes to the CRT and split it, running one half directly to the CRT, and the other to the Samsung's VGA port via the XRGB-2+. My guess is that it will probably drop about one more frame, resulting in 3 frames dropped total (since a 480p signal over VGA already drops a little over two frames), or about 100 ms lag. Before I can do this though, I'll need an S-video to composite adapter cable, and either an S-video or composite splitter cable.
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post #327 of 718 Old 01-21-2007, 06:05 PM
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What about DVI? I have an HLP and I run my computer through DVI. A lot of people run their computer through VGA at native res and don't notice any problems. I'd think you'd notice if the mouse lagged behind a bit.

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post #328 of 718 Old 01-21-2007, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

What about DVI? I have an HLP and I run my computer through DVI. A lot of people run their computer through VGA at native res and don't notice any problems. I'd think you'd notice if the mouse lagged behind a bit.

Cush

Hi, Cush, well, it doesn't lag much, only like 1.6 frames. I hadn't really noticed it either, though I'd imagine it could be an issue in very timing-sensitive games. Unfortunately, I don't have the gear to test HDMI/DVI at the moment. I would guess that the digital input would lower the lag even more, though unfortunately that's not an option for my XBox 360 :-/.
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post #329 of 718 Old 01-21-2007, 06:21 PM
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Btw, I'm not certain, but I'm thinking all HDTVs right now likely lag around 1 frame or more even doing VGA in their native resolution, since they've still got to buffer the image if I'm not mistaken, so maybe the Samsung is perfectly normal in this regard, for an HDTV. I just don't know. I'd like to test others to see if this is the case, but I can't, because I don't have a notebook computer that I can carry around with me and test with.

Then again, notebook screens don't typically lag at all, so maybe it's not normal. Though, then again, maybe it's because notebook screens have the image delivered to them directly over a digital connection, which could possibly mean that the Samsung would be totally lagless over HDMI/DVI. That's also something I'd like to test.
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post #330 of 718 Old 01-22-2007, 09:12 AM
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Repost with links to pictures..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazeshift78 View Post

Here are my photos of my tests. I've taken at least 3 or more photos of each setup, but I posted the best ones for each.


CRT and Laptop via VGA


HL-S5086W and Laptop via S-Video, Game Mode OFF


HL-S5086W and Laptop via S-Video, Game Mode ON


HL-S5086W and Laptop via VGA, Game Mode OFF or ON



Here's the guy's website who I got the idea from...
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/


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