HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 718 Old 09-05-2007, 01:57 AM
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AHIGH, Thanks for all the friendly and professional advice. So it's a pretty safe bet that a 720p LCD would be perfect for the xbox 360, huh?

I think my perfect setup will be a 60 inch 1080p for movies and a 37-40inch 720p LCD for gaming. What do u think? What about some of the 720p Samsung LCDS that have DNIe Video Enhancing technology...Doesn't that also create game lag or does the included Gamemode turn this off?

Thanks for the help!
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post #452 of 718 Old 09-26-2007, 06:02 PM
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i'v had a 32' LG tv for about 4 months now, i started to notice lag playing halo 2 and couldn't fix it, recently i bought an xbox 360 which i thought would fix the problem but it didnt, now with halo 3 im getting the same problem. does anyone know anything about this to help?
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post #453 of 718 Old 09-27-2007, 06:55 AM
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Your LCD can't keep up with the input signal. This is typical with LCD's probably up to late this year. Sharp makes a gaming model with little to no input lag. Samsun and Sony have game mode that isn't as good. There was a thread about JVC LCD's with no input lag past somewhere on AVS with a video demonstration comparing four LCDs and the input lag. Both JVC and Sharp were the best.

What you need to do is turn off any type of special image processing on the input you have your game unit on. Any special special image processing you can. This is the trick that Samsung and Sony does. Samsung says this reduces input lag by 30%. The Sharp GP1U gaming model is different since it has a seperate circuit board with faster integrated controllers with a more direct path to the LCD screen.

So turn off all the XD features, color, contrast, noise. Turn black control off. Turn 3:2 pulldown off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfitzyou View Post

i'v had a 32' LG tv for about 4 months now, i started to notice lag playing halo 2 and couldn't fix it, recently i bought an xbox 360 which i thought would fix the problem but it didnt, now with halo 3 im getting the same problem. does anyone know anything about this to help?

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post #454 of 718 Old 10-01-2007, 12:26 AM
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So, I think we are dealing with separate issues here. I think it is agreed that HDTVs will lag with an input which is not in the TV's native resolution. For example, playing 480i/p (PS2, GCN, Xbox, etc.) on an HDTV will have lag.

But will HDTVs lag at the native resolution? I think that's what we are talking about now, and this video (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/cedia07/j...?autoplay=true) seems to confirm that they will lag at a native resolution.

How about 720p on a 1080p TV, or vice versa?
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post #455 of 718 Old 10-02-2007, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Wouldn't the fact that most fixed pixel "720p" displays are actually 768p nullify this? Basically everything gets scaled, regardless if you feed it 720p or 1080p.

360 can scale output to 768p via VGA and HDMI/DVI in 'PC Mode'. And the 360 scaler is <1 frame of lag, unlike your typical HDTV scaler.
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post #456 of 718 Old 10-12-2007, 09:57 AM
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Ok well i had a Samsung DLP and on guitar hero 2 the lag was set to 29MS. The 360 was plugged directly into the TV at the time with the audio going into a HTIB system.

Now i have a pioneer Kuro plasma 60" pdp-6010fd and a Denon avr-2307 receiver and the 360 is going hdmi into the receiver and the receiver into the monitor. The new adjusted lag time is about 7ms although sometimes it sets to zero.

Now i was thinking of getting a new receiver, but i want to keep the lag time low, would a different receiver change this much? i heard the Onkyo 875 has had issues with this.
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post #457 of 718 Old 10-14-2007, 03:09 PM
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Does anyone have some experience with how much of an input lag there is on the new philips lcds with pixel perfect?
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post #458 of 718 Old 10-16-2007, 12:45 PM
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Hey maybe I'm missing something here but could someone help me out?

I know recently JVC did a demo with an xbox 360 comparing how their new 898 series lags less than other tvs. However, this thread seems to say that if broadcast in the native resolution (like 360 does) then there shouldn't be any lag at all.

So why would the JVC be faster than the others if the signal is at native res??

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post #459 of 718 Old 10-17-2007, 09:42 AM
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I just saw this http://www.totalconsole.com/servlet/...VGA-box/Detail
looks like it simply has component input and vga out. The page says it supports 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, but it does not say whether that is input or output resolution. It says it does deinterlacing, so who knows.


Argh, I just found the manual online and it states that it does not support 480i input, only 480p and above. Regardless, this may still be helpful for people who have lag with 480p.
http://www.xcmlive.com/xcmlive/produ...aboxmanual.jpg
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post #460 of 718 Old 10-17-2007, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dms541 View Post

Hey maybe I'm missing something here but could someone help me out?

I know recently JVC did a demo with an xbox 360 comparing how their new 898 series lags less than other tvs. However, this thread seems to say that if broadcast in the native resolution (like 360 does) then there shouldn't be any lag at all.

So why would the JVC be faster than the others if the signal is at native res??

I've done quite a bit of in home lag testing over the past couple years on several TVs. I haven't found a test that demonstrates video lag better than photographing two side by side TVs connected to two Xboxes using system link. I photograph two TVs together, while viewing the same scene of a fast moving object. Any lag difference will show up in the photograph. (see post 113 of this thread).
I currently own 3 HD TVs which lag almost equal to each other. My Panasonic plasma 50PX60U is slightly better than my DLP (VGA connection) or LCD (over component). The resolution output from the Xbox makes almost no difference in lag on any of the TVs that I own. VGA is significantly better for lag on my Samsung DLP HLR6168 but slightly worse for lag on my Westinghouse LCD 32H240S.
I purchased and returned two TVs over the past year. I returned a Phillips 50 inch plasma for unacceptable lag. I also returned a 30 inch Samsung CRT because it's lag performance was no better than the Westinghouse LCD, which had a better picture.
The best TV/monitor, that I have ever tested, was an Hitachi CRT monitor. My experience would suggest that matching the input signal to the TV's native resolution has little to do with video lag. Most severe video lag results from image processing like Samsungs DNiE on its HLR series.
I hope this helps.
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post #461 of 718 Old 10-20-2007, 06:09 PM
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Hello, I have a Samsung 225 and when playing FPS on line I get killed before I see the other guy shoot or raise his gun!
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post #462 of 718 Old 10-21-2007, 05:15 PM
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Hi, thanks for a very informative thread fubarduck.

I'm in the market for an HDTV, and I must say that I'm fairly upset after reading your thread that there is really no truly good solution out there (that doesn't cost $2000 over and above the cost of the TV). Since HDTVs have been around for so many years now, I was hoping some TV manufacturer out there had gotten their act together and made a TV for people who are extremely sensitive to gaming lag.

Since your initial FAQ was written in 2005, I'm wondering if there have been any good advancements to the field, now that it's late in 2007? I haven't bought a TV yet, so I'm free to look around and buy the one with the least lag. I play a lot of timing-sensitive games on N64 and PS2 still (in addition to my 480p Wii), so 480i and 480p signals are the most important to me right now.

Surely there must be a good solution now! ... right?

EDIT - I see you're also a big Street Fighter fan, fubarduck... finally, someone who understands my plight! What TV did you end up going with? What TV do you use now for your 3rd Strike play? Did you have to compromise and readjust all your timing, or did you find a solution that works to the frame?
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post #463 of 718 Old 10-24-2007, 03:09 PM
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Can somebody, anybody, PLEASE post an answer (be it opinion or fact?) to the question of: "What is THE BEST LCD-TV for Console Gaming", meaning: which TV has the least amount of "game lag". This is so important to me (halo 3 XBOX 360) I would be so appreciative of anyones answers. THANK YOU SO MUCH guys - love this forum!!
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post #464 of 718 Old 10-27-2007, 07:31 AM
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i had a little sony tube tv. It was flat screen (not flat panel). It was the most lag free best TV i ever had. I used to be able to get headshots galore on that tv. On my new westinghouse, i have trouble killing someone. I think that you might want to try out a tube tv. They might be heavier, but because they are lag free and play standard definition better, you might want to make this your choice.
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post #465 of 718 Old 10-27-2007, 10:09 PM
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I bought a 32" samsung tv this last summer and have noticed a very annoying problem. With my xbox360 outputting a 720p signal through component cables, I'm still getting 50+ ms of lag on the tv. This is with game mode on and every other ehancement turned off that I could find. Does anybody have any ideas what to do about this? Another issue I've been having is that any non 480i image that is input will display a weird "tearing" effect about three quarters of the way down the screen. I notice both of these issues most when playing guitar hero (it's also what I used to get the 50+ ms figure I stated earlier). Thanks in advance for any and all help.
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post #466 of 718 Old 10-29-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camden690 View Post

i had a little sony tube tv. It was flat screen (not flat panel). It was the most lag free best TV i ever had. I used to be able to get headshots galore on that tv. On my new westinghouse, i have trouble killing someone. I think that you might want to try out a tube tv. They might be heavier, but because they are lag free and play standard definition better, you might want to make this your choice.

I have a 32XBR450 for games.

Its perfect. I also have a 1080p plasma; but I prefer playing games on the CRT. With a wired connection to my cable modem its 100% lag free. I find that I get kills easier with this setup.

I dont know if the plasma has any gaming lag..I actually haven't even tried it!
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post #467 of 718 Old 10-30-2007, 05:01 PM
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Hi All,

I have a quick question. I've been on the regular forums for the last few months, doing my research.

I've narrowed down my search to either the Mitsu xx833 or the Sony A3000. Would anyone who has either of these TVs please post a reply as to how they are with gaming. I have an Xbox 360 and will be getting a PS3 and possibly a Wii sometime next year.

Thanks in advance
Ki||@
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post #468 of 718 Old 10-30-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avJoel View Post

Can somebody, anybody, PLEASE post an answer (be it opinion or fact?) to the question of: "What is THE BEST LCD-TV for Console Gaming", meaning: which TV has the least amount of "game lag". This is so important to me (halo 3 XBOX 360) I would be so appreciative of anyones answers. THANK YOU SO MUCH guys - love this forum!!

Based on my experience: Sharp Aquos (I have the LCD46D62U). I tested it in store before buying. I bought a Rear-projection from panasonic in 2005 and it had lag when playing ps2 through component. I was hoping that the HDMI connection of the next gen console would get rid of the lag, it did not! So last august, I end up buying a new one with very careful attention to the lag issue. I ended up with an Aquos.

The games I used to test it out on PS2: Hot Shot Golf 4 and guitar hero 1 (there is no calibration in this game).
For PS3 : Formula one and Resistance.

In 32 inch and 37 inch, Sharp has the GP model that is targeted for gamer.
http://www.sharp.ca/pdf/release_GP1U_070327.pdf
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post #469 of 718 Old 11-21-2007, 04:53 PM
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Hey people

i have an SONY xbr4 with game mode on, yet my games still lag

could it be because i have all the advanced settings on?

like black enchanment, contrast enchanment etc etc..

i mean i could turn them all off, but then the image looks really washed out

is this the only way to reduce lag ?

thanks heaps
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post #470 of 718 Old 11-23-2007, 01:51 PM
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Hey, I know DLPs have a bad rap on this topic, but I bought the Samsung HL-S5687W in January because of IGN's report (google search IGN: The HDTV-Gaming-Lag Report). And I'm happy to report that all inputs, including VGA, component (Xbox360 1080p), and even standard AV (Wii 480i) have no noticeable lag for me. I've been happy owning that for the past 10 months, playing Guitar Hero III and Rock Band have no issues.
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post #471 of 718 Old 11-26-2007, 07:50 AM
 
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I've read just about every thread on the "gaming lag" issue.

Clear something up for me: Is this just an issue on Sammy DLPs or is it for any LCD/DLP/Plasma? Or is it just worse on the Sammy DLPs?

I'm on the cusp of purchasing a HDTV dedicated to gaming, though almost exclusively 480p+ gaming. Is this pretty much a non-issue for me?

The Sammy DLP (42") is my favorite but I worry about the gaming lag stories. There are no issues in 480p and beyond right?

Another TV I'm looking at is the Panasonic 44" LCD (PT44LCX65). What's the differences in gaming on a DLP vs. LCD? Does the LCD suffer some of the gaming lag as well?
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post #472 of 718 Old 11-28-2007, 07:35 PM
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Would using a VGA cable help reduce the lag on my 32" LG LCD rather than using component/hdmi?
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post #473 of 718 Old 12-04-2007, 08:58 AM
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Here's another datapoint...

I have a Sony KDS-R70XBR2, the current LCoS rear projection TV from Sony (their latest XBR5 is supposed to be around in January 2008). I paid $5500 for this otherwise wonderful set. I say otherwise because yes, even at 1080/60p coming from my PC over HDMI, the set has at least 50ms of lag (the card is a nvidia 7950GT, DVI->HDMI). It sucks. I can't play any games on it that require low reaction time (Battlefield, Quake wars, Halflife, etc). It's the only reason I haven't bought a console system as well.

I'm currently trying to get Sony to tell me the value measured by their designers so that I can at least get them to realize that this is a major complaint. Hmm I'll measure this delay when I get a chance and post my findings as well as their response..
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post #474 of 718 Old 12-04-2007, 09:01 AM
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SGz24: -- no the VGA connection is at best 1024x768, so it will definitely be upconverted when the source over component or hdmi potentially won't need to be. However HDMI will always be faster since it's already digital. With the other connections some analog-to-digital conversion has to occur.

That doesn't mean there is actually a solution yet unless someone has gone and measured the latest TVs on the market...
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post #475 of 718 Old 12-05-2007, 11:53 AM
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I still have the Sony XBR 60"

You are correct that 1080p (no game mode which sucks) does have around 50ms of lag. I use the TV for console gaming (360/PS3) and interestingly enough 720p/1080i with game mode and a few settings tweaks cut that lag about in half.

After a lot of testing and just feel I would put the values on the XBR2 as follows..

480p no game mode- 50ms
480p game mode- 25-30ms
720p no game mode- 60ms
720p game mode- 25-30ms
1080i no game mode- 60ms
1080i game mode- 20-25ms
1080p no game mode- 50ms

This is with all advanced settings OFF.. Iris set to min (Auto seems to add a bit of lag) and sharpness set to 0. This provides pretty good graphic quality. Odd enough, if you lower picture/color settings it reduces input lag more.. I theorize that having higher settings gives the projector more workload thus increasing lag.

It's really a dissapointment that Sony didn't include a game mode on 1080p as that would likely result in input lag in the 20ms range which while not great is not terrible either for console gaming. This is one of the reasons I am taking a close look at the A3000 which has game mode via HDMI 1080p AND VGA 1080p (VGA may have less lag) Unfortunantly for you.. I realize that the set does not pick up 720p via HDMI-PC and will not apply a game mode for it. Overall it is a nice set and for even a serious gamer like me for console gaming it is doing OK... would I play better with an additional -10ms ? Of course... which is why im looking at other options. As for PC gaming.. stay away.

As far as other TV's.. I think input lag is a problem on most sets (even LCD) it's just a fact that most casual gamers don't notice it and think it's normal. I play PC on a 42" Westinghouse LCD monitor (last years models) and input lag is in the <15ms range.
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post #476 of 718 Old 12-17-2007, 01:25 PM
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you might want to doublecheck that -- the 70" manual says that game mode is only for 480i sources. The option is greyed out while 1080p is being supplied. On my set anyway..
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post #477 of 718 Old 12-27-2007, 01:32 PM
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Hey guys, my tv is a Sharp Aquos LCC3242U. Its a 6ms lcd tv with a native resolution of 1366x768.

Right now I have very little input lag on this tv for gaming, but I'm a really competitive fps player so I can tell any difference that causes issue with my aim. I recently found out about turning off a few post processing effects which has helped considerably. Now I'm just wondering if I should take it just one step further to eliminate the issue altogether by grabbing VGA. Just a few questions...

1. Would VGA reduce my input lag even further, make no noticable different, or be worse?

2. Since with the 360 VGA cables I can get a lot closer to my native resolution(1360×768 with vga compared to 1024×768 with component) would that improve my image quality?

3. Does my TV's ms speed (6ms speed) still taken into account in VGA mode? Not sure if this is just something that effects component input or all input.
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post #478 of 718 Old 12-27-2007, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal FaZe View Post

Hey guys, my tv is a Sharp Aquos LCC3242U. Its a 6ms lcd tv with a native resolution of 1366x768.

Right now I have very little input lag on this tv for gaming, but I'm a really competitive fps player so I can tell any difference that causes issue with my aim. I recently found out about turning off a few post processing effects which has helped considerably.

I've got the same display, so I'm curious which "post processing effects" you're referring to. Are these display-specific effects? Are these console-specific? Game-specific?

PSN & XBL ID: drop me a private message
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post #479 of 718 Old 12-27-2007, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal FaZe View Post

Hey guys, my tv is a Sharp Aquos LCC3242U. Its a 6ms lcd tv with a native resolution of 1366x768.

Right now I have very little input lag on this tv for gaming, but I'm a really competitive fps player so I can tell any difference that causes issue with my aim. I recently found out about turning off a few post processing effects which has helped considerably. Now I'm just wondering if I should take it just one step further to eliminate the issue altogether by grabbing VGA. Just a few questions...

1. Would VGA reduce my input lag even further, make no noticable different, or be worse?

2. Since with the 360 VGA cables I can get a lot closer to my native resolution(1360×768 with vga compared to 1024×768 with component) would that improve my image quality?

3. Does my TV's ms speed (6ms speed) still taken into account in VGA mode? Not sure if this is just something that effects component input or all input.

While it's possible that your HDTV might have less post-processing through VGA (the only way to test this is with Guitar Hero 2 or 3), you can most likely file this under the "no noticeable difference" category. A resolution change will not help you (see first post) but test it and see for yourself, the tools are out there.

With 6ms refresh rate, you are still seeing the frame while the next one is still being drawn assuming you're playing at 60fps (in which a frame is ~17ms) so that's your bare minimum but it's nothing to worry about. Your ideal target is 8ms or less.
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post #480 of 718 Old 12-29-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I've got the same display, so I'm curious which "post processing effects" you're referring to. Are these display-specific effects? Are these console-specific? Game-specific?

There is only one I used, which is to turn off the DIGITAL something or other from low to off from the option menu.

I recently picked up VGA. Looks a bit different due to the higher resolution for some odd reason. Still looks good. I have noticed a very slight improvement in my aiming, not huge, but enough to make me comfortable now. I'm happy with the purchase, but the next time I get an HD display it'll likely be a plasma.
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