HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 718 Old 09-11-2008, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

Thanks ARogan. I was actually looking at the LN46A50 so I'm curious about your results. Would you by any chance be able to conduct the test on your LN46A630 using a 720p and/or 1080p source?

I've updated my input lag post with a lot more tests:
- millisecond stopwatch + 30fps timecode video
- composite, hdmi, vga, game mode, hdmi PC rename.

http://blog.arogan.com/2008/09/lcd-h...lag-tests.html
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post #542 of 718 Old 09-19-2008, 01:17 AM
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I will say I'm fairly surprised at ARogan's results, assuming that his results on the Sharp translate to my TV which I boasted about recently (they should; my model is the same, but only 42").

I've played on TVs that have had 35-40 ms of lag (measured by, say, the average number over 20 tests using the lag calibrator in Guitar Hero 2/3, however much you want to trust that), and they were more or less unplayable for me in the games I demonstrated in my video. I'm confused how some output modes on the Sharp get the same calculations in ARogan's demonstrations.

I suppose my claims of "perfectly lagless" were a bit overzealous anyway, but I *do* stand by my earlier claim that it is the TV with the least lag I have ever played on. If there *is* lag, I can't notice it, playing IIDX on my PS2 through component input; a game whose timing windows are +/- 15 milliseconds and where I'll instantly know if something is awry, and all my frame-specific combos and visual-cue hit confirms still work in 3rd Strike. We can play 30 fps games on the N64 as if there was no problem (games we've had 10 years of experience with on a CRT, and would feel any fluctuation). And recently, I've bought an Xbox 360 and hooked it up through HDMI, and there've been no problems there (playing timing-sensitive games like Soul Calibur 4, which has frame-specific input moves called "just frames", and I feel confident performing those on my TV vs. someone's CRT which I also play on).

Numbers are numbers, though. I never brought any to the table when I made an initial post. I am surprised to see the numbers as high as ARogan has found... though I still stand by my earlier recommendation. I know I'm also basically posting saying "trust me, I'm a good gamer and I would notice", so you can take my posts for what they are. I tried to back up my claims with a Youtube video in my other post, though, to provide visual evidence of what I cannot substantiate with vacuous arguments about my skill. (Basically: "see look! I can't do it before, and now I can!", in addition to a direct comparison with the CRT to give an optimal case). Hopefully TVs continue to improve, but until that time I will be content with my purchase!
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post #543 of 718 Old 09-19-2008, 04:25 PM
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I just want to make it clear that I hold no claim to the accuracy of my numbers. Everything from the baseline numbers to the two different methods I used to my kind of crappy camera leads to a lot of interpretation. I tried my best under the conditions and equipment I had though. I would say just playing on the TV and how it feels is just as important on determining input lag.
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post #544 of 718 Old 09-22-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARogan View Post

I've updated my input lag post with a lot more tests:
- millisecond stopwatch + 30fps timecode video
- composite, hdmi, vga, game mode, hdmi PC rename.

http://blog.arogan.com/2008/09/lcd-h...lag-tests.html

That is awesome. I'd love to see that done with more projectors, as it would definitely influence my buying decision.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #545 of 718 Old 09-25-2008, 07:23 AM
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Infil, I would probably make the same claims as you. As an avid gamer myself, I've found my Sharp 46D64U series as a godsend for HD gaming.

One of the easiest ways to see lag is with the Wii, just move the cursor around on the dashboard at different speeds. At 480i on game mode it was slightly behind my actions, but completely tolerable.

At 480p, even without game mode, the Wii cursor was in perfect 1:1 harmony with my movements. I couldn't have been happier, as even 480p on my old old Samsung (LTP266W) couldn't deliver that kind of accuracy with Wii.

Xbox 360 and PS3 so far at 1080p have given me the same courtesy, I play lots of fighting games as well and haven't run into any hiccups, even with game mode off.

Banding issues aside, this is a gamers dream TV so far.
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post #546 of 718 Old 09-25-2008, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

That is awesome. I'd love to see that done with more projectors, as it would definitely influence my buying decision.

I've gone ahead and started this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1068844

For anyone interested in projectors for gaming, please either check it out for the info, or add any helpful information you can, if you're able.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #547 of 718 Old 10-01-2008, 04:58 PM
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So does anyone know of newer, more up-to-date sites that test for input lag or have good info as far as what newer plasmas/lcds have little to none?

Anyone tested an elite Pioneer for how much they have in the best of circumstances?
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post #548 of 718 Old 10-14-2008, 10:00 AM
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Ah, input lag, another little headache to add to the epic migraine of choosing an HDTV.

As a frequent gamer, I've been getting caught up in the mania of lag figures and stopwatch screenshots while trying to choose a 40-46 inch LCD. With the advent of Rock Band 2 and it's hardware-based lag calibrator, I've come up with some surprising numbers myself on my CRT HDTV.

The Rock Band 2 hardware uses a light sensor placed in front of the screen and a series of flashes to calibrate the time between outputting the flash and perceiving it on screen. I'd always assumed, being a CRT, my Sony Wega HD (model KV-30HS420) had no lag as long as it was sent its native resolution, 1080i, but apparently that's not the case. Here are the results I got when outputting the Xbox 360 at different resolutions:

1080i: 31 ms
720p: 14 ms
480p: 30 ms
480i: 45 ms

These were surprising results to me. Even the Rock Band 2 manual suggests a setting of 0 ms when using a CRT, but I don't think they figured on the oft forgotten HD CRT.

The good part about this is, I've apparently been playing Xbox 360 since it launched with 31 ms lag, unaware. To me, this means if I can find an LCD with 31 ms lag or better then it's fast enough. Comforting; the Samsung 6 series and the Sharp tested by ARogan seem to be able to get there, albeit only via VGA. However, I'll be playing at 1080p, not the 720p used in the tests, and our measuring methods are completely different. It would be silly of me to treat our results as though they were derived from the same methods. What I need, and am searching for, is a list from other players with the Rock Band 2 hardware who have used the auto calibration and posted their figures for their TVs! As it's hardware based, it'd be a nice standardized way to compare input lag on a range of current HDTVs. If I do find this, perhaps on the Rock Band forums, I will post it.

Aside from this, I'm baffled by my much faster lag results when setting the Xbox 360 to 720p. If this was an LCD I'd understand - sending 720p would mean the TV would only have to scale to 1080, not de-interlace and scale. But my CRT HDTV certainly can't output 720p (as I recall from their heyday, almost none can) so presumably it has to scale this to its native 1080 and, erm, 'interlace' it too. How can it do this in half the time it takes to simply display a signal sent to it in its native 1080i with no conversion required? Some of it may come down to the Xbox, which people often cite as running largely at 720p internally then scaling to whatever resolution you've chosen in the display settings, which must take some time. This theory doesn't bode particularly well for my hope that, say, feeding a Samsung A630 a signal in its native 1080p will yield faster results than ARogan's 720p example, which it obviously had to scale.

All of which, of course, leaves me flummoxed until I can find that mythical thread of auto calibration numbers from Rock Band 2 players.
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post #549 of 718 Old 10-15-2008, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayton View Post

Aside from this, I'm baffled by my much faster lag results when setting the Xbox 360 to 720p. If this was an LCD I'd understand - sending 720p would mean the TV would only have to scale to 1080, not de-interlace and scale. But my CRT HDTV certainly can't output 720p (as I recall from their heyday, almost none can) so presumably it has to scale this to its native 1080 and, erm, 'interlace' it too. How can it do this in half the time it takes to simply display a signal sent to it in its native 1080i with no conversion required? Some of it may come down to the Xbox, which people often cite as running largely at 720p internally then scaling to whatever resolution you've chosen in the display settings, which must take some time. This theory doesn't bode particularly well for my hope that, say, feeding a Samsung A630 a signal in its native 1080p will yield faster results than ARogan's 720p example, which it obviously had to scale.

All of which, of course, leaves me flummoxed until I can find that mythical thread of auto calibration numbers from Rock Band 2 players.

It really must be that the 360 takes some time to scale to 1080i from the game's native 720p resolution. Perhaps going from 720p to 1080i is harsher on the 360's scaler since it has to create an interlaced signal.

I would imagine (hope) that setting the 360 to output 1080p would yield a much lower delay than that.
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post #550 of 718 Old 11-10-2008, 12:57 PM
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I'd like to thank everybody that has provided any information whatsoever in the thread, I've been skimming through a lot of it and it's quite invaluable for me.

Here's my situation as I see it. I currently have a 21' chunky CRT monitor that takes up way too much space on my desk at home, and I'd like to replace it. At the same time, I help run a fighting game event here in Melbourne, and I'd like a screen that works well with at least HD gaming systems.

With LCD monitors, I want to know whether or how they are affected by scaling. It really doesn't matter to me whether there are black horizontal bars or the standard (1080 or 720) I go with. Given that widescreen monitors are typically 16:10 instead of the normal 16:9 this could cause complications? Also, I read vague reports that a 24' is the most native resolution size for this purpose? I don't want to go much larger, as I want it to be portable to a degree.

The flipside is of course using a similar sized LCD TV as a substitute for a monitor, which would give me the bonus of component for older consoles, even if they have to scale. Is there any problems using these TVs with a computer other than the obvious price difference?
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post #551 of 718 Old 11-11-2008, 01:02 PM
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Has anyone compared timecode+camera results to the Rock Band 2 optical eye to make sure the results are similar?
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post #552 of 718 Old 11-19-2008, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikazerox View Post

Infil, I would probably make the same claims as you. As an avid gamer myself, I've found my Sharp 46D64U series as a godsend for HD gaming.

One of the easiest ways to see lag is with the Wii, just move the cursor around on the dashboard at different speeds. At 480i on game mode it was slightly behind my actions, but completely tolerable.

At 480p, even without game mode, the Wii cursor was in perfect 1:1 harmony with my movements. I couldn't have been happier, as even 480p on my old old Samsung (LTP266W) couldn't deliver that kind of accuracy with Wii.

Xbox 360 and PS3 so far at 1080p have given me the same courtesy, I play lots of fighting games as well and haven't run into any hiccups, even with game mode off.

Banding issues aside, this is a gamers dream TV so far.

What do you guys think of the 52D64U? Eventhough it's larger with a 52" screen size, would it have the same results being that it's also a D64U series?
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post #553 of 718 Old 11-23-2008, 09:05 AM
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Can anyone tell me what is the best way to reduce input lag on the LN46A650 on HDMI ?

I know for fact that game mode and HDMI on port 2 renamed PC ( exactly the same as a VGA cable )are the 2 best ways, but what's the best one ?

Join the Samsung LCD Owner's group
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post #554 of 718 Old 11-26-2008, 10:14 AM
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Hey guys, I've been searching the tubes for a long time and I'm happy I stumbled upon this thread. I don't see anything about frequency written though. Do 120hz HDTVs reduce lag? Is it worth the extra $$ to get one?

And I have to ask what people's response is for the best 40-46" HDTV (up to $1500) for reducing lag to play Halo 3 on a XBOX 360.

I was looking at the options and I like the LN46A630. Is there noticeable lag on this set? I read ARogan's tests and it looks like lag can be limited to 40 ms, but I don't know how reproducible/translatable his methods are to xbox360 games..

Thanks so much.
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post #555 of 718 Old 11-28-2008, 07:18 AM
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anyone?
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post #556 of 718 Old 11-29-2008, 03:15 AM
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Could I do the timer test without a camera? I dont have a camera but couldnt i just hit pause and see what it shows for each display?
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post #557 of 718 Old 12-01-2008, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Could I do the timer test without a camera? I dont have a camera but couldnt i just hit pause and see what it shows for each display?

No, that would show you the same number everytime because by the time you hit pause the slower will have caught up regardless of how long of a delay and they will display the same time.

What the camera is for is to basically pause time itself, not the stopwatch/timecode program, to see what is being displayed at any given moment. What you're asking for would require a pause button found only in the movie Click.
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post #558 of 718 Old 12-01-2008, 09:16 PM
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Input lag is easily the most overblown issue in gaming history. Unless you're playing an incredibly time dependent game like certain pc games (mouse and keyboard), Guitar Hero type games, or just games that involve absolute precise timing, input lag is NOT going to destroy your gaming abilities.

It's milliseconds, not seconds. If you can't adjust to milliseconds of lag, you just have a really terrible reaction time.

I had a Samsung 71F 120hz with AMP High for 99% of my games. Even online I wouldn't have any issues popping of headshots, or getting the upper hand on other people.

It's not like you're gonna mis-time a jump of Mario and fall into a pit. If did, you need to just not play anymore.

People make it sound like actual seconds of lag.

I played games like COD4, Halo 3, Battlefield with my 'LAGGY' TV set with AMP High. No problems handing out ass-whoopings. If I failed, I blamed it on my own skills, not the TV.
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post #559 of 718 Old 12-02-2008, 01:36 PM
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You are correct...for casual gaming.
If you play online on a hardcore server that uses a small "hitbox", no crosshair (where you have to use the weapons sites, not spray and pray) it will make a difference.
Just get on a server with a 200 ping to get an exaggerated simulation. You may have to lead a target by 2 feet for the bullet to arrive at the target at the same time.
It is a matter of total input lag.
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post #560 of 718 Old 12-04-2008, 12:51 PM
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Hi guys,

Just wanted to point out some results I got testing a Sony Z4100 versus a Samsung A650 for gaming. Please see the post in the Sony Z thread here and the one immediately following it here.

In short, using the light sensor that comes with Rock Band 2 I measured the input lag on these two sets in various modes, many many times, and got the following:

Sony Z4100
Game Mode On: 63 ms
Game Mode Off: 85 ms
VGA: 63 ms

Samsung A650
Game Mode On: 47 ms
Game Mode Off: 80 ms
VGA: 25 ms

(All measurements made in 1080p, with everything possible disabled, including MotionFlow/AMP, all contrast toys, all noise filters etc. I have an older Xbox 360, so could not measure HDMI, only component.)

I am keeping the Samsung, playing in VGA, and returning the Sony, which also had a smearing issue I found distracting.

I will probably still have both sets together for a couple more days, if any old schoolers want me to test 480i or 480p.
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post #561 of 718 Old 12-04-2008, 05:26 PM
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could you test 480p/i on the samsung? I'm thinking about getting the matte 630. I need to just take my 360 or wii into bestbuy and try it out.

Seems like everything I find on the web regarding this is 1-2 yrs old. How are plasmas vs LCD for input lag? I can handle not playing games for the break-in period. is it worth it?
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post #562 of 718 Old 12-05-2008, 12:40 PM
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Those were great posts Ayton. I would LOVE to see the results over HDMI. Maybe you can track down a 360 with HDMI from a friend for some testing? I have to assume that the Samsung is getting this reputation from somewhere. It must be the HDMI connection then, although logically I would have assumed that a digital input would undergo less processing and therefor have less lag.
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post #563 of 718 Old 12-06-2008, 09:20 AM
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tried to play hot shots golf out of bounds on the ps3 with my 32" samsung lcd...there was some lag using the traditional shot method which is the timing method...now that i am in the market for another lcd about the same size...what are the best as far as least lag...i know its milliseconds but it still throws you off on the timing games.
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post #564 of 718 Old 12-06-2008, 09:17 PM
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- So I picked up a rock band 2 guitar for 360 and it has audio/video sensors to automatically calibrate for lag.
Sharp LC-52d64u: 1080p, hdmi, game mode off: 30ms (multiple tries, results were very consistent and repeatable)
samsung LN46a630: 1080p, vga: 45ms (though something was wrong because I couldn't get a consistent reading. I had values as low as 20's and high as 80's so I don't trust this number. I tried everything, turned lights on, lights off, different distances/angles, backlight levels, etc)
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post #565 of 718 Old 12-07-2008, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARogan View Post

- So I picked up a rock band 2 guitar for 360 and it has audio/video sensors to automatically calibrate for lag.
Sharp LC-52d64u: 1080p, hdmi, game mode off: 30ms (multiple tries, results were very consistent and repeatable)

- Did you mean Game Mode On?
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post #566 of 718 Old 12-08-2008, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

Input lag is easily the most overblown issue in gaming history. Unless you're playing an incredibly time dependent game like certain pc games (mouse and keyboard), Guitar Hero type games, or just games that involve absolute precise timing, input lag is NOT going to destroy your gaming abilities.

It's milliseconds, not seconds. If you can't adjust to milliseconds of lag, you just have a really terrible reaction time.

I had a Samsung 71F 120hz with AMP High for 99% of my games. Even online I wouldn't have any issues popping of headshots, or getting the upper hand on other people.

It's not like you're gonna mis-time a jump of Mario and fall into a pit. If did, you need to just not play anymore.

People make it sound like actual seconds of lag.

I played games like COD4, Halo 3, Battlefield with my 'LAGGY' TV set with AMP High. No problems handing out ass-whoopings. If I failed, I blamed it on my own skills, not the TV.

I have to beg to differ. I have a 71f also and I also play COD4, COD WAW, GoW and I have to say my TV is horrible. I have tried everything I have come across trying to solve this. It's real frustrating when you are walking slowly and you know someone is just around the corner and you are waiting and next thing you know you die out of nowhere so you watch the killcam only to find out that the guy had already rounded the corner and shot you down and you never even saw him as he stood in front of you and shot you down. When I first started playing I just thought i was horrible at the game but then I played the game on my nephews TV one day and I was dropping people left and right. that was the first time I got an airstrike and Heli. I had a 13" crt and started playing on it and my K/D and accuracy instantly started to climb. But the problem with that is after about an hour of the standard def 13" my eyes and head are killing me due to squinting trying make sure it's an enemy i'm about to shoot at or a rock. And don't even get me started on rock band and/or guitar hero because that's just a disaster. I love my TV. For Movies and such it's great but I hate the fact I can"t even use it to play certain games on and I have to change a bunch of connections just to enjoy a game.

The only thing I have not tried is using the xbox VGA cables. Could this help?

Is my TV seriously screwed up? I know it isn't any kind of connection lag also because it does it in private matches as well. Anyone have the same issues with the Samsung 4071f or am I alone?

Thanks
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post #567 of 718 Old 12-10-2008, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

- Did you mean Game Mode On?

I double checked. I was in user mode. NOT game mode.
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post #568 of 718 Old 12-10-2008, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARogan View Post

I double checked. I was in user mode. NOT game mode.

- Do you know what the input delay is with Game Mode On? 30ms is very respectable with it Off.
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post #569 of 718 Old 12-13-2008, 08:56 PM
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Hi,
Is there a difference in input lag with s-video vs component video? I am only able to test my tv with s-video because my laptop cannot do anything else (other than VGA, which I'm using for the reference CRT). My set (a Samsung 61a750) gets about 80-100 ms with game mode off and 50-70 with it on. I do not know if it does better with component video instead of s-video which is why I bring up this question.
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post #570 of 718 Old 12-14-2008, 09:09 AM
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Most sets do a lot better with Component vs. S-Video simply because it doesn't have to deinterlace the signal (480i). But it also depends on what the original source resolution was.
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