HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 718 Old 04-11-2009, 09:45 AM
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I'm not sure about the accuracy of the RB2 guitar. I get a different result every time, varying from mid 20's to high 40's when measuring my panasonic z85u via hdmi. I manually set it to 5ms for best results for me.

For audio, I use av out and the test says -3ms!?!. Does it travel back in time?
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post #632 of 718 Old 04-11-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odd-props View Post

I'm not sure about the accuracy of the RB2 guitar. I get a different result every time, varying from mid 20's to high 40's when measuring my panasonic z85u via hdmi. I manually set it to 5ms for best results for me.

For audio, I use av out and the test says -3ms!?!. Does it travel back in time?

That's odd, I can do the test over and over again and have it be +/- 2ms. I also verified the accuracy of the results by running the stopwatch app on my display, and the results are concurrent.

As for the audio, I'm in the same boat with you; when I set it to stereo I get -2ms. I was talking with some folks on the RB forum, and the consensus seems that there is about 5-10ms of assumed lag that the game puts into the audio for an "average" stereo setup that isn't calibrated. Some of the developer's comments on old patches seem to back up this assumption.

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post #633 of 718 Old 04-13-2009, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TruckChase! View Post

This still alive? If anyone still cares I've got some latency test results from about 5 different newer HDTVs. I posted some info on the model specific threads, but haven't received much interest.....

can you put a short breakdown on findings on them useing hdmi// im looking for a new tv and low lag is first then price
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post #634 of 718 Old 04-17-2009, 01:15 PM
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can you put a short breakdown on findings on them useing hdmi// im looking for a new tv and low lag is first then price

Bah! I still haven't had time to break down the pictures into digestible data, but I know how frustrating it is not having info. Here is some quick info I was able to ascertain.

Forward: All tests @ 720p unless noted. My laptop display clone won't allow me to go up to 1080p. Gaming mode differential not tested, as the initial results showed no difference with "game mode" on any TV. This doesn't mean that that's always the case however, I DQ'ed it after only 3 sets.

Testing methodology: Unless otherwise noted, used a HP Laptop with HDMI output to clone the display and use the flatpanels.dk testing app. Calibrated the laptop display vs. a 17" CRT over 12 runs to have a inherent latency of 19.2ms. Differential of laptop screen vs. display was then recorded, and 20ms of latency added to account for laptop lag.

Results:
Pioneer Elite 60" PRO-151FD:
67ms,51ms,67ms,67ms,67ms,51ms,unreadable

Samsung 58" PN58A760
114ms,114ms,113ms,

LG 60" 60PG60 plasma (terrible image quality)
67ms,83ms,83ms,83ms

Panasonic TH-58PZ800U and TH-58PZ850U (I tested these both very thoroughly; I own the 800U now)
32 ms (averaged from about 50 samples)

Sharp 60" LCD LC-65SE94U
61ms, 51ms, 66ms

There were more results from the sharp LCD but they were impossible to read due to image retention. More data to follow.

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post #635 of 718 Old 04-17-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckChase! View Post

Bah! I still haven't had time to break down the pictures into digestible data, but I know how frustrating it is not having info. Here is some quick info I was able to ascertain.

Forward: All tests @ 720p unless noted. My laptop display clone won't allow me to go up to 1080p. Gaming mode differential not tested, as the initial results showed no difference with "game mode" on any TV. This doesn't mean that that's always the case however, I DQ'ed it after only 3 sets.

Testing methodology: Unless otherwise noted, used a HP Laptop with HDMI output to clone the display and use the flatpanels.dk testing app. Calibrated the laptop display vs. a 17" CRT over 12 runs to have a inherent latency of 19.2ms. Differential of laptop screen vs. display was then recorded, and 20ms of latency added to account for laptop lag.

Results:
Pioneer Elite 60" PRO-151FD:
67ms,51ms,67ms,67ms,67ms,51ms,unreadable

Samsung 58" PN58A760
114ms,114ms,113ms,

LG 60" 60PG60 plasma (terrible image quality)
67ms,83ms,83ms,83ms

Panasonic TH-58PZ800U and TH-58PZ850U (I tested these both very thoroughly; I own the 800U now)
32 ms (averaged from about 50 samples)

Sharp 60" LCD LC-65SE94U
61ms, 51ms, 66ms

There were more results from the sharp LCD but they were impossible to read due to image retention. More data to follow.

thank you for the time that you have put in testing..im a big gamer and notice lag right away.. i blam lag for my lack of skill sometimes...loland my internet is ghey sometimes also...i have an elite /hdmi and need to update my tv from a 65"widescreen to a 1080p model but i hate lag so i guess i m still waiting for better tvs......
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post #636 of 718 Old 04-17-2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckChase! View Post

Bah! I still haven't had time to break down the pictures into digestible data, but I know how frustrating it is not having info. Here is some quick info I was able to ascertain.

Forward: All tests @ 720p unless noted. My laptop display clone won't allow me to go up to 1080p. Gaming mode differential not tested, as the initial results showed no difference with "game mode" on any TV. This doesn't mean that that's always the case however, I DQ'ed it after only 3 sets.

Testing methodology: Unless otherwise noted, used a HP Laptop with HDMI output to clone the display and use the flatpanels.dk testing app. Calibrated the laptop display vs. a 17" CRT over 12 runs to have a inherent latency of 19.2ms. Differential of laptop screen vs. display was then recorded, and 20ms of latency added to account for laptop lag.

Results:
Pioneer Elite 60" PRO-151FD:
67ms,51ms,67ms,67ms,67ms,51ms,unreadable

Samsung 58" PN58A760
114ms,114ms,113ms,

LG 60" 60PG60 plasma (terrible image quality)
67ms,83ms,83ms,83ms

Panasonic TH-58PZ800U and TH-58PZ850U (I tested these both very thoroughly; I own the 800U now)
32 ms (averaged from about 50 samples)

Sharp 60" LCD LC-65SE94U
61ms, 51ms, 66ms

There were more results from the sharp LCD but they were impossible to read due to image retention. More data to follow.

Your results are higher than other I have read about. Anyway your data about the top-level Panasonic is very interesting. I wonder if the new gen is even better in input-lag than the older one.
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post #637 of 718 Old 04-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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Wondering if someone could help me out....

I am gonna buy a new TV this weekend but I am stuck on which ones to buy. Ultimately since I play ps3 alot, it comes down to which TV has the lag.

Sony 52xbr6 or samsung 52 a750
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post #638 of 718 Old 05-05-2009, 08:39 AM
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I have a question for you experts. I purchased a samsung UN55B7100. I am discovering that it does have lag, even with game mode on (did the rock band 2 test and got 110ms with game mode off and ~40 ms with game mode on). I was wondering if there are any setting changes in my ps3 or tv I could make to improve this. For example, street fighter IV is 720P. Is there anyway I can force the machine and tv to display in this resolution without trying to upscale to 1080? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #639 of 718 Old 05-05-2009, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by eeratm View Post

I have a question for you experts. I purchased a samsung UN55B7100. I am discovering that it does have lag, even with game mode on (did the rock band 2 test and got 110ms with game mode off and ~40 ms with game mode on). I was wondering if there are any setting changes in my ps3 or tv I could make to improve this. For example, street fighter IV is 720P. Is there anyway I can force the machine and tv to display in this resolution without trying to upscale to 1080? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

It's not possible if you have a 1080p HDTV, because each flat-panel has to display everything in its native resolution, so upscale or downscale the image.

I'm gonna buy the DVDO Edge soon, so I'll minimize the input-lag that is in every modern HDTV.
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post #640 of 718 Old 05-05-2009, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeratm View Post

I have a question for you experts. I purchased a samsung UN55B7100. I am discovering that it does have lag, even with game mode on (did the rock band 2 test and got 110ms with game mode off and ~40 ms with game mode on). I was wondering if there are any setting changes in my ps3 or tv I could make to improve this. For example, street fighter IV is 720P. Is there anyway I can force the machine and tv to display in this resolution without trying to upscale to 1080? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Nice TV!

Your lag sounds in line with most modern HDTVs.

Game mode has pretty much undetectable lag to most mere mortals. However, there's hyper-sensitive Street Fighter players that can detect a frame or two of lag and it would drive them crazy -- in the same way a slightly sped up or down song will drive a musician with perfect pitch insane. Good thing most musicians don't have perfect pitch, and I'm personally glad I can't detect lag at the single frame-level.

btw, Rock Band 2 isn't the best calibration method because the game has built-in lag and compensates for it. Try testing the lag on Guitar Hero: World Tour demo and you should see numbers closer to ~0ms in game mode. Oh, and make sure Dolby Digital is off in Rock Band... that adds some lag too.

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post #641 of 718 Old 05-11-2009, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckChase! View Post

Forward: All tests @ 720p unless noted. My laptop display clone won't allow me to go up to 1080p. Gaming mode differential not tested, as the initial results showed no difference with "game mode" on any TV. This doesn't mean that that's always the case however, I DQ'ed it after only 3 sets.

Results:
Pioneer Elite 60" PRO-151FD:
67ms,51ms,67ms,67ms,67ms,51ms,unreadable

Samsung 58" PN58A760
114ms,114ms,113ms,

LG 60" 60PG60 plasma (terrible image quality)
67ms,83ms,83ms,83ms

Panasonic TH-58PZ800U and TH-58PZ850U (I tested these both very thoroughly; I own the 800U now)
32 ms (averaged from about 50 samples)

Sharp 60" LCD LC-65SE94U
61ms, 51ms, 66ms

There were more results from the sharp LCD but they were impossible to read due to image retention. More data to follow.



The terrible picture quality might be that 720P isn't its native resolution, wonder if it would look way better at 1080P, and also running 720P on these 1080P models might also involve some lag just in scaling, probably not much, but some. Also makes you wonder if game mode on Samsung would of helped it. LG have a game mode?
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post #642 of 718 Old 05-13-2009, 08:08 PM
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I am currently using the VGA input to feed my xbox to my KURO. However the VGA does not have many options in the settings menu compaired to the other input types such as HDMI. One of the things I am a bit concerned about is that it does not have a "game mode" when using the VGA input. Does anyone know if VGA on the KURO by default has less of a latency then some of the other input types?

I have not had a chance to check it myself but I do have Guitar Hero 3 and if that has a lag test I can check it with that.
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post #643 of 718 Old 05-14-2009, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by emmapeel159 View Post

I am currently using the VGA input to feed my xbox to my KURO. However the VGA does not have many options in the settings menu compaired to the other input types such as HDMI. One of the things I am a bit concerned about is that it does not have a "game mode" when using the VGA input. Does anyone know if VGA on the KURO by default has less of a latency then some of the other input types?

I have not had a chance to check it myself but I do have Guitar Hero 3 and if that has a lag test I can check it with that.

I just checked my Kuro 5020 using HDMI and I was amazed by the results . I used the Guitar Hero World Tour calibration test. I got 0ms two times and 2ms the third time . I even tried with and without Dolby Digital on from the option menu and it didn't change the results.
My best results in Rock Band 2 were around 20-30ms. I also tried a few minute of Dance Dance Revolution Universe and I easily got perfect evaluations. DDR is useful, because it rates each individual steps from I think bad to perfect, so you can see when you nail a step perfectly.

So, I guess I'm not gonna buy the DVDO Edge after all .
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post #644 of 718 Old 05-15-2009, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SniperREX View Post

I just checked my Kuro 5020 using HDMI and I was amazed by the results . I used the Guitar Hero World Tour calibration test. I got 0ms two times and 2ms the third time . I even tried with and without Dolby Digital on from the option menu and it didn't change the results.
My best results in Rock Band 2 were around 20-30ms. I also tried a few minute of Dance Dance Revolution Universe and I easily got perfect evaluations. DDR is useful, because it rates each individual steps from I think bad to perfect, so you can see when you nail a step perfectly.

So, I guess I'm not gonna buy the DVDO Edge after all .

Is this with the game mode feature on or off?
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post #645 of 718 Old 05-16-2009, 08:11 AM
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Is this with the game mode feature on or off?

On. I forgot to try without it.
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post #646 of 718 Old 05-19-2009, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MasterBelch View Post

Yes, i tried a bunch of settings. All @1080p with a dvi-to-hdmi cable.

Funny thing (from shoryuken):

"Frame Conversion:

1 frame is approximately 17 milliseconds.
Ideal (unnoticeable) delay for fighting or rhythm games is 8 milliseconds or less, or 1/2 of a frame.

Acceptable (playable) delay is 9 to 34 milliseconds, or 1/2 of a frame to 2 frames. Note that while gameplay will still be affected by a delay of 2 frames, most people will still have a difficult time noticing the difference immediately.

Unacceptable (unplayable) delay is over 34 milliseconds, or anything higher than 2 frames. Typically, this is a point when timing-sensitive gamers will even feel a delay at the menu screen or with the cursor when selecting a character."

Actually it is more than 33millisecond. The delay is also experienced from the wireless controller along with the internet & the delay that come with teh wireless network connection, not to mention that the game itself may have some slight delay such as V-sync & frames buffering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eocODP04UBQ
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post #647 of 718 Old 05-19-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Deap View Post

Actually it is more than 33millisecond. The delay is also experienced from the wireless controller along with the internet & the delay that come with teh wireless network connection, not to mention that the game itself may have some slight delay such as V-sync & frames buffering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eocODP04UBQ

I don't agree with that test that you linked to. As soon as you involve human input, the results are instantly flawed (inaccurate).

If you really want to test controller lag, you've got to do it completely automatically.

That said, is there any actual consensus on wireless controller lag? I've never heard of it being an issue before.
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post #648 of 718 Old 05-20-2009, 12:42 AM
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Im curious how a dvdo edge would cut down on lag? The best results I get and assume you can get is by having the player outputting your native resolution.

Unless your implying the edge can scale quicker then a 360 internally. Or even PS3 games that support it.
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post #649 of 718 Old 05-25-2009, 02:34 PM
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So It seems like Sharp and Panasonic do some good to gamers with there game modes.

I think i might get the SHARP AQUOS 40E77U i saw someone on here who tested it and said it had less than a frame of lag on 1080p game mode
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post #650 of 718 Old 05-27-2009, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh7289 View Post

I don't agree with that test that you linked to. As soon as you involve human input, the results are instantly flawed (inaccurate).

If you really want to test controller lag, you've got to do it completely automatically.

That said, is there any actual consensus on wireless controller lag? I've never heard of it being an issue before.

It help indeed, especially when you view it at 5% speed at 60fps. I even did various moves to show that I get similar result thoroughly.
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post #651 of 718 Old 05-27-2009, 08:55 PM
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How is gaming lag on the Samsung B750?

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post #652 of 718 Old 05-27-2009, 09:07 PM
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I'm not trying To belittle any of the extensive testing you guys are doing because we all have our own thing. I can just say that in my gaming experience the online servers usually are much more annoying than any display. Granted not everyone plays online but I find this to be the worst culprit. I have been gaming for a long time and even in this HD age I have never noticed any type of lag. Maybe I am not sensitive to it and I admit after all the topics I always read I was a bit concerned. I game on my Kuro 151 and I never even use game mode and have never had a problem at all.

I actually feel bad for the people that do experience this or are sensitive to it as I can see how it would be bothersome. I'm just glad I don't notice it. Gaming on my 60 inch Elite Kuro has been absolute heaven coming from a 27 inch off brand SD.
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post #653 of 718 Old 06-05-2009, 02:47 AM
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What is the best mode to use on a Sharp 52D64U? Does game or pc mode actually help reduce lag? Any other menu settings that will help as well, such as fine image, etc?

Looking for best settings/mode for use with PC and 360 both over HDMI at 1080P.
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post #654 of 718 Old 06-14-2009, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

I'm not trying To belittle any of the extensive testing you guys are doing because we all have our own thing. I can just say that in my gaming experience the online servers usually are much more annoying than any display. Granted not everyone plays online but I find this to be the worst culprit. I have been gaming for a long time and even in this HD age I have never noticed any type of lag. Maybe I am not sensitive to it and I admit after all the topics I always read I was a bit concerned. I game on my Kuro 151 and I never even use game mode and have never had a problem at all.

I actually feel bad for the people that do experience this or are sensitive to it as I can see how it would be bothersome. I'm just glad I don't notice it. Gaming on my 60 inch Elite Kuro has been absolute heaven coming from a 27 inch off brand SD.

You can just add the input lag to whatever your server problems are. It is cumulative and completely relevant. If it doesn't bug you more power to ya.

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post #655 of 718 Old 06-15-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

I'm not trying To belittle any of the extensive testing you guys are doing because we all have our own thing. I can just say that in my gaming experience the online servers usually are much more annoying than any display. Granted not everyone plays online but I find this to be the worst culprit. I have been gaming for a long time and even in this HD age I have never noticed any type of lag. Maybe I am not sensitive to it and I admit after all the topics I always read I was a bit concerned. I game on my Kuro 151 and I never even use game mode and have never had a problem at all. .

I play SF4 online every night... and yes input lag does come into effect. When I turned on game mode I instantly noticed I was better at reaction, I could "tech" throws better, etc. Keep in mind this was after happily playing 360/PS3 on this TV withOUT game mode for over a year. Cod4, Halo 3, etc.

It's still not perfect. Online lag does effect the game more. SF4's netcode sucks balls. Every time I see someone throw *through* my lightning kicks I want to scream. I just wish there was an arcade nearby so I could play SF4 and be done with this crap.
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post #656 of 718 Old 06-19-2009, 01:31 PM
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When playing games on my sony kdl46z4100 with a ps3 and hdmi cable,should motion enhancer and cinemotion be on or off??
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post #657 of 718 Old 06-19-2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by profchaos71 View Post

When playing games on my sony kdl46z4100 with a ps3 and hdmi cable,should motion enhancer and cinemotion be on or off??

Off. To reduce lag, turn off as much processing as possible.

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post #658 of 718 Old 06-24-2009, 04:19 PM
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Hi, i want to know what would be the better set up for this system. Samsung 32" LCD, PS3, and a Denon 3808CI AVR all conected via HDMI. I love to play Guitar Hero, Resident evil, Gran Turismo. Any help is welcome.
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post #659 of 718 Old 06-30-2009, 11:04 PM
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Ive heard great things about the D64U Sharp Aquos. Anyone done any lag tests for D65U Sharp Aquos (im looking at the 46")? Are they about the same as the D64U? Or for that fact anyone done lag tests on the D85U? I could spend 100$ more for the D85U 120Hz display and 10bit panel vs. the D65U, but Im most worried about delay for gaming (the 120Hz gonna be a problem or can you adjust it to 60 Hz for gaming?). Thanks.
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post #660 of 718 Old 07-06-2009, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bdschuss View Post

Ive heard great things about the D64U Sharp Aquos. Anyone done any lag tests for D65U Sharp Aquos (im looking at the 46")? Are they about the same as the D64U? Or for that fact anyone done lag tests on the D85U? I could spend 100$ more for the D85U 120Hz display and 10bit panel vs. the D65U, but Im most worried about delay for gaming (the 120Hz gonna be a problem or can you adjust it to 60 Hz for gaming?). Thanks.

I'm also looking at the D65U 46", need an answer...
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