BEFORE YOU LOOK AT THIS FAQ, READ THIS:
THIS FAQ OUTLINES THE KNOWN PROBLEM OF STANDARD DEFINITION MATERIAL LAGGING ON HIGH DEFINITION SETS.
HIGH DEFINITION MATERIAL DOES NOT LAG ON A HIGH DEFINITION SET 99% OF THE TIME. SO, IF YOU HAVE A PS3, X-BOX 360, OR HTPC, YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ THIS.
fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.5
Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.
Part I
Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.
On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.
However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.
So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.
UPDATE: There IS a way to measure HDTV Gaming Lag now. Guitar Hero II for PS2 and X360 has a built-in test under the video options, which measures lag in milliseconds. (~17ms = 1 frame)
I also recommend checking out this page started by another helpful AVS Forum member:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/
Here, you can actually see someone who measured the problem very accurately with LCD HDTVs. The test on this site was done with 480i material.
Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Definition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.
As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of timing-sensitive video games.
So what resolution are my video games outputting?
Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)
Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)
Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)
X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)
X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.
These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com .
What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.
Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.
Example Chart
Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.
Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)*
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Example 3 (TV: Sony LCD with 1080p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Best: X-Box 360 game (720p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Small lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.
* Note that all Samsung DLPs pass the signal through its internal DCDi scaler which will result in lag even if you game at the TV's native resolution (Source: http://gear.ign.com/articles/744/744064p2.html )
The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.
As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!
Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTVs
Solution A: Getting all games to output in 720p, 1080i, or 1080p
Option 1
This is hands-down the best solution available, and has been well-documented already by Gerry Block at IGN Gear. Please see the article here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/718/718587p1.html
Basically, this device will take any input and thanks to the "Game Mode" will output to ANY resolution with less than one frame of processing time. Unfortunately, this solution costs around $2,000 which is simply out of most gamers' price range. At the end of this article, the DVDO folks suggest that a cheaper product may be released in the future focused specifically towards gamers, but until then, this is the only end-all solution.
iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card and
iScan VP50
are the products that can do lag-free gaming, and are both highly recommended. Currently these are the only "end-all" solutions.
Option 2
Our next choice is to look to the next generation of consoles. The X-Box 360 can output all 360 games and compatible Xbox 1 games to either 720p, 1080i, and after a dashboard update via Xbox Live due at the end of November, 1080p. This is done by the X-Box 360 with no perceivable lag.
Update 5/24/07 - The PS3 is now be capable of doing the same thing as of Firmware Version 1.8, but due to the poor deinterlacing algorithm used for backwards compatibility, PS1 and PS2 games will lag on your HDTV EVEN if you output a 720p, 1080i, or 1080p signal to your display.
The Xploder HDTV Player is now shipping here: http://www.xploder.net/products/148/...DTV-Player.htm
However, it seems to be very bad at what it does, even at outputting a simple 480p signal. See IGN Gear's review here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html
[/b]
Avoid the Xploder HDTV Player at ALL costs, as it does not perform as advertised.
Solution B: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p
Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, this is the second-best solution for HDTV owners.
This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.
OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. The only such VGA boxes that do this are Japanese. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com .
The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.
Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XRGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The XRGB-2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.
Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the recently released XRGB-3.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-3.html
The XRGB-3 is a quality product, but the way it functions is much different from the XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 was designed with a frame buffer system which has a built in lag when using its normal function mode, which outputs at 1024x768, 1280x1024, or 1600x1200. Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 cannot output to these resolutions without lag whether it outputs VGA or DVI.
480i material suffers approximately 80-100ms of lag, while 480p material suffers approximately 10-20ms of lag.
Fortunately, the XRGB-3 has a downloadable firmware update from Micomsoft's home page (in Japanese) called "Line Doubler and Transcoder mode". This mode does NOT lag like the normal mode, but only outputs in 640x480 (480p) and only via VGA (not DVI). Many of the XRGB-3's special features such as freeze-frame and PIP also become unusable.
The XRGB-3 in this mode functions as follows:
- 480i signals are line doubled and displayed as 480p
- 480p signals are accepted and displayed as 480p
- 1080i/720p signals are accepted and displayed as 1080i/720p
So, it's basically exactly like the XRGB-2+ except with 480p and HD signal passthrough support. Keep in mind that 1080p passthrough is not supported.
Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.
Connecting these products to your HDTV
There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.
The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.
However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html . Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.
Solution C: Game Mode
Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode. HDTVs which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.
Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."
30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .
Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A and B are typically a better route than Solution C. However, Solution C may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.
Most "Game Mode" functions in HDTVs will reduce a lag of 80-100ms to a lag of only 20-30ms, which may be acceptable for your gaming purposes. However, this is still enough lag to affect gamers who need perfect timing.
Conclusion
Fortunately, the ball is rolling now and many important people are aware of the problem of HDTV gaming lag. The only solutions now are either expensive, inconvenient, or both. However, as more companies roll out solutions specficially to target the problem of gaming lag, I anticipate that we will have a universal, cost-effective, and perfect (less than one frame) solution within the next year or two. Thanks to people noticing this FAQ and to contributions from others from AVSForum, IGN, Shoryuken.com, HDTVArcade, and Shmups forums, the problem has been publicized and steps in the right direction have been taken to educate the average gamer who brings home a new HDTV only to discover his totally sucky scores in Guitar Hero.
Be aware that these are all relatively new solutions that few people have had the time and patience to accomplish, although anyone should be able to do them with reasonable success.
Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering the XRGB-2+ fix.
Part III: Q&A
Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.
Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.
Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".
Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A: Many newer HDTVs incorporate a Game Mode. Check the HDTV's manual to see if it incorporates a function, and remember, there is no Game Mode that eliminates lag 100% yet.
Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.
Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ or XRGB-3 and see what it can do for you.
Q: So why does the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 are devices that upscan a video game signal from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scalers. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTVs from lagging.
Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!
Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After a few years, I have discovered what I believe to be the "best" solutions--for now.
Updated:
05/24/2007: PS3 Firmware 1.8 still lags PS1/PS2 games
10/21/2006: PS3: No Upscaling for PS1/PS2 games; Xploder HDTV
09/26/2006: XRGB-3, DVDO iScan VP20/VP30, and hdtvlag.googlepages.com
07/08/2006
03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information
09/05/2005: Added Modding info.
07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.
07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"
THIS FAQ OUTLINES THE KNOWN PROBLEM OF STANDARD DEFINITION MATERIAL LAGGING ON HIGH DEFINITION SETS.
HIGH DEFINITION MATERIAL DOES NOT LAG ON A HIGH DEFINITION SET 99% OF THE TIME. SO, IF YOU HAVE A PS3, X-BOX 360, OR HTPC, YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ THIS.
fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.5
Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.
Part I
Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.
On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.
However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.
So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.
UPDATE: There IS a way to measure HDTV Gaming Lag now. Guitar Hero II for PS2 and X360 has a built-in test under the video options, which measures lag in milliseconds. (~17ms = 1 frame)
I also recommend checking out this page started by another helpful AVS Forum member:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/
Here, you can actually see someone who measured the problem very accurately with LCD HDTVs. The test on this site was done with 480i material.
Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Definition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.
As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of timing-sensitive video games.
So what resolution are my video games outputting?
Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)
Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)
Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)
X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)
X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.
These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com .
What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.
Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.
Example Chart
Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.
Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)*
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Example 3 (TV: Sony LCD with 1080p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Best: X-Box 360 game (720p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Small lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.
* Note that all Samsung DLPs pass the signal through its internal DCDi scaler which will result in lag even if you game at the TV's native resolution (Source: http://gear.ign.com/articles/744/744064p2.html )
The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.
As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!
Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTVs
Solution A: Getting all games to output in 720p, 1080i, or 1080p
Option 1
This is hands-down the best solution available, and has been well-documented already by Gerry Block at IGN Gear. Please see the article here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/718/718587p1.html
Basically, this device will take any input and thanks to the "Game Mode" will output to ANY resolution with less than one frame of processing time. Unfortunately, this solution costs around $2,000 which is simply out of most gamers' price range. At the end of this article, the DVDO folks suggest that a cheaper product may be released in the future focused specifically towards gamers, but until then, this is the only end-all solution.
iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card and
iScan VP50
are the products that can do lag-free gaming, and are both highly recommended. Currently these are the only "end-all" solutions.
Option 2
Our next choice is to look to the next generation of consoles. The X-Box 360 can output all 360 games and compatible Xbox 1 games to either 720p, 1080i, and after a dashboard update via Xbox Live due at the end of November, 1080p. This is done by the X-Box 360 with no perceivable lag.
Update 5/24/07 - The PS3 is now be capable of doing the same thing as of Firmware Version 1.8, but due to the poor deinterlacing algorithm used for backwards compatibility, PS1 and PS2 games will lag on your HDTV EVEN if you output a 720p, 1080i, or 1080p signal to your display.
The Xploder HDTV Player is now shipping here: http://www.xploder.net/products/148/...DTV-Player.htm
However, it seems to be very bad at what it does, even at outputting a simple 480p signal. See IGN Gear's review here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html
[/b]
Avoid the Xploder HDTV Player at ALL costs, as it does not perform as advertised.
Solution B: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p
Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, this is the second-best solution for HDTV owners.
This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.
OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. The only such VGA boxes that do this are Japanese. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com .
The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.
Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XRGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The XRGB-2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.
Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the recently released XRGB-3.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-3.html
The XRGB-3 is a quality product, but the way it functions is much different from the XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 was designed with a frame buffer system which has a built in lag when using its normal function mode, which outputs at 1024x768, 1280x1024, or 1600x1200. Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 cannot output to these resolutions without lag whether it outputs VGA or DVI.
480i material suffers approximately 80-100ms of lag, while 480p material suffers approximately 10-20ms of lag.
Fortunately, the XRGB-3 has a downloadable firmware update from Micomsoft's home page (in Japanese) called "Line Doubler and Transcoder mode". This mode does NOT lag like the normal mode, but only outputs in 640x480 (480p) and only via VGA (not DVI). Many of the XRGB-3's special features such as freeze-frame and PIP also become unusable.
The XRGB-3 in this mode functions as follows:
- 480i signals are line doubled and displayed as 480p
- 480p signals are accepted and displayed as 480p
- 1080i/720p signals are accepted and displayed as 1080i/720p
So, it's basically exactly like the XRGB-2+ except with 480p and HD signal passthrough support. Keep in mind that 1080p passthrough is not supported.
Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.
Connecting these products to your HDTV
There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.
The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.
However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html . Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.
Solution C: Game Mode
Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode. HDTVs which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.
Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."
30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .
Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A and B are typically a better route than Solution C. However, Solution C may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.
Most "Game Mode" functions in HDTVs will reduce a lag of 80-100ms to a lag of only 20-30ms, which may be acceptable for your gaming purposes. However, this is still enough lag to affect gamers who need perfect timing.
Conclusion
Fortunately, the ball is rolling now and many important people are aware of the problem of HDTV gaming lag. The only solutions now are either expensive, inconvenient, or both. However, as more companies roll out solutions specficially to target the problem of gaming lag, I anticipate that we will have a universal, cost-effective, and perfect (less than one frame) solution within the next year or two. Thanks to people noticing this FAQ and to contributions from others from AVSForum, IGN, Shoryuken.com, HDTVArcade, and Shmups forums, the problem has been publicized and steps in the right direction have been taken to educate the average gamer who brings home a new HDTV only to discover his totally sucky scores in Guitar Hero.
Be aware that these are all relatively new solutions that few people have had the time and patience to accomplish, although anyone should be able to do them with reasonable success.
Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering the XRGB-2+ fix.
Part III: Q&A
Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.
Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.
Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".
Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A: Many newer HDTVs incorporate a Game Mode. Check the HDTV's manual to see if it incorporates a function, and remember, there is no Game Mode that eliminates lag 100% yet.
Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.
Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ or XRGB-3 and see what it can do for you.
Q: So why does the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 are devices that upscan a video game signal from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scalers. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTVs from lagging.
Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!
Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After a few years, I have discovered what I believe to be the "best" solutions--for now.
Updated:
05/24/2007: PS3 Firmware 1.8 still lags PS1/PS2 games
10/21/2006: PS3: No Upscaling for PS1/PS2 games; Xploder HDTV
09/26/2006: XRGB-3, DVDO iScan VP20/VP30, and hdtvlag.googlepages.com
07/08/2006
03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information
09/05/2005: Added Modding info.
07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.
07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"