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HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution.

549K views 717 replies 288 participants last post by  Stormyhog 
#1 ·
BEFORE YOU LOOK AT THIS FAQ, READ THIS:

THIS FAQ OUTLINES THE KNOWN PROBLEM OF STANDARD DEFINITION MATERIAL LAGGING ON HIGH DEFINITION SETS.


HIGH DEFINITION MATERIAL DOES NOT LAG ON A HIGH DEFINITION SET 99% OF THE TIME. SO, IF YOU HAVE A PS3, X-BOX 360, OR HTPC, YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ THIS.


fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.5

Introduction

First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.

Part I

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?

HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.


On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.


However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

So just how bad is the lag?

Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.

UPDATE: There IS a way to measure HDTV Gaming Lag now. Guitar Hero II for PS2 and X360 has a built-in test under the video options, which measures lag in milliseconds. (~17ms = 1 frame)


I also recommend checking out this page started by another helpful AVS Forum member:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/


Here, you can actually see someone who measured the problem very accurately with LCD HDTVs. The test on this site was done with 480i material.

Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?

The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Definition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.


As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of timing-sensitive video games.

So what resolution are my video games outputting?

Pre-PS2 game systems:

240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)


Playstation 2:

480i (most games), 480p (a few games)


Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)


X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)


X-Box 360:

All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.



These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com .

What is the native resolution of my display?

CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.


Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.

Example Chart


Worst: You will notice lag.

Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.

Best: There is no lag.


Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)*

Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.

Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.

Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.

Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.

Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.

Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.

Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.


Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):

Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.

Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.

Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.

Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.


Example 3 (TV: Sony LCD with 1080p native resolution)

Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.

Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Lag.

Best: X-Box 360 game (720p) --> Sony LCD upscales to 1080p --> Small lag.

Better: Any game on any system with Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.


* Note that all Samsung DLPs pass the signal through its internal DCDi scaler which will result in lag even if you game at the TV's native resolution (Source: http://gear.ign.com/articles/744/744064p2.html )


The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.


As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!



Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTVs


Solution A: Getting all games to output in 720p, 1080i, or 1080p

Option 1

This is hands-down the best solution available, and has been well-documented already by Gerry Block at IGN Gear. Please see the article here:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/718/718587p1.html


Basically, this device will take any input and thanks to the "Game Mode" will output to ANY resolution with less than one frame of processing time. Unfortunately, this solution costs around $2,000 which is simply out of most gamers' price range. At the end of this article, the DVDO folks suggest that a cheaper product may be released in the future focused specifically towards gamers, but until then, this is the only end-all solution.


iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card and

iScan VP50


are the products that can do lag-free gaming, and are both highly recommended. Currently these are the only "end-all" solutions.

Option 2

Our next choice is to look to the next generation of consoles. The X-Box 360 can output all 360 games and compatible Xbox 1 games to either 720p, 1080i, and after a dashboard update via Xbox Live due at the end of November, 1080p. This is done by the X-Box 360 with no perceivable lag.

Update 5/24/07 - The PS3 is now be capable of doing the same thing as of Firmware Version 1.8, but due to the poor deinterlacing algorithm used for backwards compatibility, PS1 and PS2 games will lag on your HDTV EVEN if you output a 720p, 1080i, or 1080p signal to your display.


The Xploder HDTV Player is now shipping here: http://www.xploder.net/products/148/...DTV-Player.htm


However, it seems to be very bad at what it does, even at outputting a simple 480p signal. See IGN Gear's review here:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html

[/b]


Avoid the Xploder HDTV Player at ALL costs, as it does not perform as advertised.



Solution B: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p


Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, this is the second-best solution for HDTV owners.

This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.



OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. The only such VGA boxes that do this are Japanese. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com .

The Products

First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html

Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.


Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html

The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XRGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The XRGB-2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.


Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the recently released XRGB-3.

http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-3.html


The XRGB-3 is a quality product, but the way it functions is much different from the XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 was designed with a frame buffer system which has a built in lag when using its normal function mode, which outputs at 1024x768, 1280x1024, or 1600x1200. Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 cannot output to these resolutions without lag whether it outputs VGA or DVI.


480i material suffers approximately 80-100ms of lag, while 480p material suffers approximately 10-20ms of lag.


Fortunately, the XRGB-3 has a downloadable firmware update from Micomsoft's home page (in Japanese) called "Line Doubler and Transcoder mode". This mode does NOT lag like the normal mode, but only outputs in 640x480 (480p) and only via VGA (not DVI). Many of the XRGB-3's special features such as freeze-frame and PIP also become unusable.


The XRGB-3 in this mode functions as follows:


- 480i signals are line doubled and displayed as 480p

- 480p signals are accepted and displayed as 480p

- 1080i/720p signals are accepted and displayed as 1080i/720p


So, it's basically exactly like the XRGB-2+ except with 480p and HD signal passthrough support. Keep in mind that 1080p passthrough is not supported.



Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.

Connecting these products to your HDTV

There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.


The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.


However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html . Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.



Solution C: Game Mode


Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode. HDTVs which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.


Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:

"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."


30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .


Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A and B are typically a better route than Solution C. However, Solution C may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.


Most "Game Mode" functions in HDTVs will reduce a lag of 80-100ms to a lag of only 20-30ms, which may be acceptable for your gaming purposes. However, this is still enough lag to affect gamers who need perfect timing.




Conclusion

Fortunately, the ball is rolling now and many important people are aware of the problem of HDTV gaming lag. The only solutions now are either expensive, inconvenient, or both. However, as more companies roll out solutions specficially to target the problem of gaming lag, I anticipate that we will have a universal, cost-effective, and perfect (less than one frame) solution within the next year or two. Thanks to people noticing this FAQ and to contributions from others from AVSForum, IGN, Shoryuken.com, HDTVArcade, and Shmups forums, the problem has been publicized and steps in the right direction have been taken to educate the average gamer who brings home a new HDTV only to discover his totally sucky scores in Guitar Hero.


Be aware that these are all relatively new solutions that few people have had the time and patience to accomplish, although anyone should be able to do them with reasonable success.

Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering the XRGB-2+ fix.




Part III: Q&A


Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.

A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.



Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!

A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.



Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.

A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".



Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?

A: Many newer HDTVs incorporate a Game Mode. Check the HDTV's manual to see if it incorporates a function, and remember, there is no Game Mode that eliminates lag 100% yet.



Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?

A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.



Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?

A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ or XRGB-3 and see what it can do for you.



Q: So why does the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?

A: No. The XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 are devices that upscan a video game signal from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scalers. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTVs from lagging.



Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?

A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.

The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!



Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?

A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After a few years, I have discovered what I believe to be the "best" solutions--for now.

Updated:

05/24/2007: PS3 Firmware 1.8 still lags PS1/PS2 games

10/21/2006: PS3: No Upscaling for PS1/PS2 games; Xploder HDTV

09/26/2006: XRGB-3, DVDO iScan VP20/VP30, and hdtvlag.googlepages.com

07/08/2006

03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information

09/05/2005: Added Modding info.

07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.

07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"
 
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#578 ·
I thought I'd share some results on this forum. Just got a Sharp Aquos LC32D64U. Initial results with a Wii were pretty bad (I'm not using the component cables though, so this is in 480i, not 480p). The best I could get in 480i was a 2.5 frame lag (87ms). I wasn't well equiped to test all resolutions, but the TV seems fine in HD:


480i over composite: 87 ms lag

480p over hdmi: 14 ms lag

720p over hdmi: 15 ms lag

1080p over hdmi: 13 ms lag


(All the HD resolution probably have the same lag and the difference is probably just error in counting on my side).


I could just get the component cables for the Wii, but thinking that my old SNES and Sega Genesis will lag is a disappointment (yes, I still play with those from time to time).


For the 480i, the setup was done using a CRT and a Y splitter - both the Sharp and the CRT received the same splitted signal. For the HD resolution, I used mirroring on my laptop. Took pictures of a time code and took the average difference in 20 random frames. The attached picture shows the 2.5 frame lage in 480i


 
#579 ·
Just to follow up on my previous post. I returned the Sharp Aquos LC32D64U (thank you Future Shop for being so hassle free on returns). Instead I grabbed a Sony KDL32XBR6. There was a post somewhere about it being "lag-free". I ran the same tests and this is what I got:


Lag Time:


480i over composite cable:1.8 frame lag (59 ms)

480i over hdmi: 1.3 frame lag (44.6 ms)

720p over hdmi: 1.3 frame lag (43.2 ms)

1080p over hdmi: 0.23 frame lag (7.6 ms) (not bad given that the LCD's response time is 8 ms - though keep in mind that I was comparing with a laptop which also has an LCD with its own response time of ~15-20 ms)


480p over hdmi was not available - instead it took 1080p and upscaled the input. I tested anyway to check if this 1080p would have a lag due to the scaling: 1.8 frame lag (60.7 ms) *Indeed it has quite a lag just for the upscaling*




As far as I am concerned, I'll use this TV in 480i (SNES, Coleco, etc.) and in 1080p (computer). I'm not really concerned about 720p, but some people might be and in that specific case, the Aquos performed better.


Visually, although this is for another discussion, I'll say that the XBR does look much better than the Aquos. Except for the default setup (Vivid) which is just horrible (Sony, why oh why use this as default?)


Although this is also a personal issue - I could definitely feel the 87 ms lag on the Sharp, but at 59, it does not bother me. I feel it's still there (especially on the Wii when you point with the remote), but it's below my annoyance threshold. Getting the component cable for the Wii would probably lower the lag (480p instead of 480i). If I get one I'll update the results.
 
#581 ·
Anyone got result of the LG60 or LG70?




So far it seem that the Panasonic LZ800 is the king of the gaming.



The 480i around 15~30ms on the TC-32LZ800 is nasty
 
#582 ·
I have reason to believe that the HDMI2/PC mode on my Samsung 52A750 isn't displaying all of the detail in a 1080p source. Without PC mode on and my sharpness at 0 the detail on diagonal edges of fine detail stuff is great, but in PC mode the same on screen objects is stepped and jagged, like it is lower resolution.


Is it possible that the TV displaying less digital information to help speed up the lag?
 
#585 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoChaos /forum/post/15453543


NumeriK: Were your results with the game mode enabled on the Sharp?

No game mode on that one (LC32D64U) - that's why they have the "Vyper Drive" enabled model (LC32GP3U) which I could not find anywhere here in Canada. I did turn off all the options that could potentially increase lag time (any temporal filtering, etc).


The LC32GP3U is more expensive by a few hundred dollars, but I would have tried it otherwise. I just wish they'd give us more numbers and less buzz names.
 
#586 ·
Can someone help me with Guitar Hero 2 on xbox360 to calculate the lag, I got the game but no guitar and no manual and I never played it before anyway...


I went in the video options and started the lag test, now some red circles are scroling down the screen, I guess that I am supposed to hit a button or direction when the scroling circles reaches its target but I have no clue how to do it.


I tried evey button and still the game tells me at the end of the test that it could not get any good value.


Any help would be greatly appreciated
 
#587 ·
Ok I got it, I needed to press down, however my TV sounds to have close to no lag at all:

Game Mode on: 0 ms

Game Mode off: 0 to 10/15 ms


It is a 32D3000 connected in HDMI for the people interested (but you can't buy it anymore)


EDIT: Actualy I am not so sure about my test, exatcly at what time are you expected to press down, at the moment the circle reaches it target or when it is in the target and that it looks like an "eye" ?
 
#588 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by givingupkev /forum/post/15243541


I have to beg to differ. I have a 71f also and I also play COD4, COD WAW, GoW and I have to say my TV is horrible. I have tried everything I have come across trying to solve this. It's real frustrating when you are walking slowly and you know someone is just around the corner and you are waiting and next thing you know you die out of nowhere so you watch the killcam only to find out that the guy had already rounded the corner and shot you down and you never even saw him as he stood in front of you and shot you down. When I first started playing I just thought i was horrible at the game but then I played the game on my nephews TV one day and I was dropping people left and right. that was the first time I got an airstrike and Heli. I had a 13" crt and started playing on it and my K/D and accuracy instantly started to climb. But the problem with that is after about an hour of the standard def 13" my eyes and head are killing me due to squinting trying make sure it's an enemy i'm about to shoot at or a rock. And don't even get me started on rock band and/or guitar hero because that's just a disaster. I love my TV. For Movies and such it's great but I hate the fact I can"t even use it to play certain games on and I have to change a bunch of connections just to enjoy a game.


The only thing I have not tried is using the xbox VGA cables. Could this help?


Is my TV seriously screwed up? I know it isn't any kind of connection lag also because it does it in private matches as well. Anyone have the same issues with the Samsung 4071f or am I alone?


Thanks

I have the samsung Lnt 4065, (very similar and I feel the exact same way you do with the exact same thing happening to me EXACTLY as you describe it with someone rounding a corner and blasting me as I am standing there waiting for him.


I am a fairly accomplished COD4 player also. It's very hard to knife people and hit them on the run because in reality I don't think they are where my TV says they are. When guys are running I can have a red dot dead on them, and still miss constantly.
 
#589 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumeriK /forum/post/15473401


No game mode on that one (LC32D64U) - that's why they have the "Vyper Drive" enabled model (LC32GP3U) which I could not find anywhere here in Canada. I did turn off all the options that could potentially increase lag time (any temporal filtering, etc).


The LC32GP3U is more expensive by a few hundred dollars, but I would have tried it otherwise. I just wish they'd give us more numbers and less buzz names.

Not the Vyper Drive, I mean the Game Mode you can switch to with the AV MODE button on the TV's remote. That's the one being showed off in Infil's video that has no lag, and it's on the same line of TVs that you tested (D64U).
 
#590 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid33nyc1 /forum/post/15377758


Ok i was going to upgrade my (CRT)sony 34xbr970 to the samsung LN46A650 but i hear of this gaming lag.I do lots of HD gaming with PS3 and xbox360.This would be my first LCD tv.IS it really that bad?

I received my 40" 656 yesterday ( 656 in EU = 650 in US ), i connected the TV to my AV receiver on HDMI port 1.


I've been playing a lot of colin mcrae dirt on my 360 lately, and i was becoming quite good at it too. Yesterday i played for 15 minutes or so and it was quite obvious that i sucked
I think this is because of the input lag ( measurements on HDMI port1 have shown 60ms lag )


Gaming mode is indeed not an option because it really does horrible things to the image quality ( so much that i wonder why they bothered to include it ).


I'm now going to try connecting to HDMI2 and renaming the port to "PC", this should reduce lag to 30/40ms. If i don't forget, i'll post my findings within a couple of days (or feel free to pm me if i forgot)
 
#591 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy /forum/post/15551619


I received my 40" 656 yesterday ( 656 in EU = 650 in US ), i connected the TV to my AV receiver on HDMI port 1.


I've been playing a lot of colin mcrae dirt on my 360 lately, and i was becoming quite good at it too. Yesterday i played for 15 minutes or so and it was quite obvious that i sucked
I think this is because of the input lag ( measurements on HDMI port1 have shown 60ms lag )


Gaming mode is indeed not an option because it really does horrible things to the image quality ( so much that i wonder why they bothered to include it ).


I'm now going to try connecting to HDMI2 and renaming the port to "PC", this should reduce lag to 30/40ms. If i don't forget, i'll post my findings within a couple of days (or feel free to pm me if i forgot)

How did it work with HDMI2 ?


From the test done by hdtvtest.co.uk, the samsung A656 has an input lag "on par" with gaming mode ON, does it mean no lag ? (english is not my first language)


What you say is that the game mode of Samsung does change color settings in such a way that you can't use it right ?
 
#592 ·
Guys...I bought my LN46A650 a week ago today....


I got it for just $1450 which is a great price..


Here is my set up:


Direct TV hooked up with the HDMI cable that comes with the Direct TV HD Box and connected to HDMI 1


Xbox 360 with HDMI connected with Monster HDMI Cable on HDMI/AVI 2


PS3 with Monster HDMI cable connected on HDMI 3


I don't use HDMI 4


I have the PS3 HDMI labeled GAME (Not Game Mode)


I also have HDMI/AVI 2 for 360 labeled GAME (Not Game Mode)


I have HDMI 1 for Direct TV labeled Satellite



I tried to change HDMI/AVI 2 from GAME to PC but did not notice difference in any lag on my games. I did not like the washed out colors to much but it was not as bad after a few tweaks.


I much preferred my settings on Standard with the HDMI/AVI 2 named GAME (Not Game Mode)


Here are the games I play on my 360


Madden 09


COD 5


NBA Live 09


NBA 2K9


Prince of Persia



On my PS3 I only watch Blu Ray movies and the only game I play a lot is MLB 08 the Show...



Does the lag issue affect me in terms of what I play or is this basically for specific games...


I dont snipe in COD because I just hate sniping...I love to use all other methods and move around and get my kills...


I have been able to get some nice kills from a distance with a regular sub machine gun using my cross hairs.


I dont experience the triple ball affect or any lag on COD that does not allow me to get kills..


In Madden I dont see any lag


neither do I in the other games I mentioned.


Should I just stick to my settings or should I just keep it as PC label and play like that...


If this helps:


I have the 2008.9 firmware which is the latest one that the tv's come with... My t.v was recently made towards the end of 2008


Thanx for any help....
 
#593 ·
Can someone tell me if it is possible to run the "input lag delay" test with a laptop connected to a TV via HDMI with a millisecond timer running if:


- The laptop screen is not 1080P compatible


- Only the TV connected to the laptop is getting 1080P from the laptop HDMI port


(I am not even sure that if both screens are in ghost mode, the PC can output 2 different resolutions...)


And only then take the pictures to figure out the delay ( http://tft.vanity.dk/inputlag.html ; by the way if you have a real program instead of a flash that'd be great) ?


Or both screens needs to run the same resolution ?
 
#594 ·
Okay, so from what I understand so far the Sharp Aquos LC42D64U 42" 1080p HDTV is capable of nearly no lag in games. >_> But there is still some.



I don't plan on getting an HDTV anytime soon but I have to ask, I noticed that the best device to use to decrease this lag is the iScan VP20/30 + ABT102D, yet the VP50 is no where near the level of these other 2 devices with that chip. What I'd like to know is if the iScan Edge is any better than the VP20/30, or VP50 when it comes to decreasing Lag?


or to simplify it, iScan VP20/30 + ABT102D Vs DVDO Edge in terms of game lag and features? :p



And would it eliminate lag in DLP TV's the iScan devices, or is it still best to go with an LCD if your a gamer?


How about the Laservue, is that any better, or how about the Samsung LED DLP?


Do the Samsung LED DLP, Laservue, and DLP TV's like the ones from Mitsubishi even have a Game Mode?


But are the other Sharp Televisions capable of the same decrease in lag as the Sharp Aquos LC42D64U 42" 1080p HDTV?


As I said before I don't plan on buying an HDTV anytime soon since I'm damn poor at the moment, also I ask about the laservue and TV's such as that in case the price ever goes down to something more affordable. :p
 
#595 ·
EDIT: included pics!


First of all Im sorry for my english, its not as good as it used to be.




To add more to the topic...


My father bought a w4100 and i did some input lag tests on it (dvi->hdmi, both displays at 1920x1080). I tried renaming the ports and all, results came from hdmi 4 (the one with the audio plugs for the pc). I turned EVERYTHING off, i even tried using the text mode (there was a topic about sharpness of the picture in text mode, and the possibility of it having no post-processing, well i gave a shot).


I did used a lcd, but afaik its one of those really fast ones. My results were pretty close to someone here in this forum, his minimum was 46 and mines 47, i guess my lcd is faster than his. Its a 931bw.


With game mode on i got 47 (minimum) and 60-something. Ill probably upload the pictures later, the camera I used isnt mine
.

This TV is not even CLOSE to its european-cousin. And its not good for gaming, not at all.


It would be awesome if the forum had a sticky with a list of tvs and their input lag. Ive been trying to compare response times by going to the stores and asking the employees to turn game mode on. Depending on whats playing on the screen (its the same feed) you can spot which tv is faster when theres sudden change in the picture (darkpicture to a bright one). The problem is that i dont know if all the tvs are hooked at one source.


So far im leaning towards a panny z80u.




47ms



weird one, 54ms



62ms, max
 
#597 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBelch /forum/post/15610007


So far im leaning towards a panny z80u.

I remember playing in a SF3: Third Strike tournament a year or two ago on an LCD, and the lag was absolutely horrific. When I first got my Panny Z85U, the first thing I did was hook up a PS2 and pop in Third Strike among a few other timing-critical 480i games, and I'm happy to tell you that the lag was a non-issue. I even had a few friends over who play the game much more competitively and at a much higher level than I do, and they reported no lag. If it can handle high level Street Fighter at 480i, it can handle anything.


The only game I may have noticed a bit of performance-hinderance was beatmania (PS2, 480i) set to High Speed 2 or 3, which scrolls notes at least twice as fast as the fastest Rockband/GH songs against a completely black background. The notes did have a bit of a shadow to them, but I still managed to hit the notes just about as good as I can on a CRT. This was also only a few hours into the set's life, so it may have gotten even better, but I haven't checked.


So yeah, I can definitely recommend the Panasonic Z series to anyone worried about input lag.
 
#598 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me /forum/post/15627015


I remember playing in a SF3: Third Strike tournament a year or two ago on an LCD, and the lag was absolutely horrific. When I first got my Panny Z85U, the first thing I did was hook up a PS2 and pop in Third Strike among a few other timing-critical 480i games, and I'm happy to tell you that the lag was a non-issue. I even had a few friends over who play the game much more competitively and at a much higher level than I do, and they reported no lag. If it can handle high level Street Fighter at 480i, it can handle anything.


The only game I may have noticed a bit of performance-hinderance was beatmania (PS2, 480i) set to High Speed 2 or 3, which scrolls notes at least twice as fast as the fastest Rockband/GH songs against a completely black background. The notes did have a bit of a shadow to them, but I still managed to hit the notes just about as good as I can on a CRT. This was also only a few hours into the set's life, so it may have gotten even better, but I haven't checked.


So yeah, I can definitely recommend the Panasonic Z series to anyone worried about input lag.

Thx for your input.


I was thinking about a Z85U or a Pioneer 5020 that is on sale right now. But a few days ago I saw a Samsung and a LG with 120hz on displaying Wall-E and Speed Racer. I was amazed by the smoothness and the absence of noticeable artifacts, that were extremely annoying when I saw, I guess, one of the first Samsung with 120hz about a year ago. So I was about to pull the trigger on a LCD like the Samsung 52LNA630. Now I read all this horror stories about input-lag and I'm back at square one. Input-lag is big deal for me, because I like online FPS, racing games, and used to be a big fan of BEU, Street Fighter IV is about to come out
!!!


I guess around Superbowl time I'll buy a Plasma to use it 99% of the time for gaming. I already have a DLP Projector for movies
.
 
#599 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me /forum/post/15627015


I remember playing in a SF3: Third Strike tournament a year or two ago on an LCD, and the lag was absolutely horrific. When I first got my Panny Z85U, the first thing I did was hook up a PS2 and pop in Third Strike among a few other timing-critical 480i games, and I'm happy to tell you that the lag was a non-issue. I even had a few friends over who play the game much more competitively and at a much higher level than I do, and they reported no lag. If it can handle high level Street Fighter at 480i, it can handle anything.


The only game I may have noticed a bit of performance-hinderance was beatmania (PS2, 480i) set to High Speed 2 or 3, which scrolls notes at least twice as fast as the fastest Rockband/GH songs against a completely black background. The notes did have a bit of a shadow to them, but I still managed to hit the notes just about as good as I can on a CRT. This was also only a few hours into the set's life, so it may have gotten even better, but I haven't checked.


So yeah, I can definitely recommend the Panasonic Z series to anyone worried about input lag.

Thats good to know!

Did you see any green phosphor lag or image retention problems? Well since you played beatmania and SF3 i think you're very capable of noticing stuff like this. Im stunned (and honestly quite skeptic) that the panny can handle upscaling like that, thats great for wii owners.


Ill soon go to sears to see the difference between sharp x toshiba and the panny plasmas x samsung plasmas. Ill ask one of the employees to turn all the eye-candy off.

I just wish i had a laptop with dvi... doesnt anyone here work at BB/sears and has laptop that can do the testings? That would be AMAZING!



Again, forgive my english!

___


Btw ill still post the pictures of my tests with the sony w4100.
 
#600 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBelch /forum/post/15628961


Thats good to know!

Did you see any green phosphor lag or image retention problems?

I've never experienced image retention severe enough to notice it when moving on to another game or watching TV, but it is noticable when I shut the videogame system off and the screen cuts to black. Often times I can still make out the lifebars and super meters after playing SF2 HD Remix. It's typically completely gone after about 20 minutes of normal use, but when I play marathon 4-5+ hour sessions of HD Remix on it, it can take as long as a few hours to completely wash a black screen clean, but again, has never interfered with play/viewing and does eventually go away.


The phosphor lag is a lingering issue, but it seems to have dissipated since I first got the set. I've probably put about 400 hours on it if I had to guess, and the image juddering and green trails during motion in high contrast scenes become less prominent with each passing week. Right now the only two games that irk me a little are Little Big Planet (blurring and detail loss when the screen scrolls) and Gears of War 2 (ultra bright objects against dark backgrounds and camera movement, some green trails and double imaging).
 
#601 ·
its good to see that there is still street fighter gamers out there ....i wonder if i still have the skills i had back then on that game............well can someone test halo2 in team snipe when your scoped out to see if theres in lag on head shots.please test this on your lcds ........please ............im looking for a big lcd tv to repalce my 65" crt that i do love... but ......it dooesnt look as good as those 1080ps.....
 
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