HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 718 Old 12-11-2005, 08:37 PM
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You don't "set" the TV to anything in particular. You feed it a signal. To ensure your game system is sending a 720p signal, you hit Info on the TV remote and see what signal it's receiving. Just a means of verifying you're seeing what you expect to be seeing.

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post #92 of 718 Old 12-14-2005, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikecomp View Post

First, I played Halo 2. Even though I downloaded and installed the patch for 720p support it still lagged when trying to aim at a moving target.

It's almost like the xbox360 is introducing another level of lag in it's upconversion of original 480i/480p games to the 720p output. And since you connected the xbox360 with component to the Samsung HDTV and ran it at 720p, this is taking the Samsung 480i scalar out of play.

I just don't know anymore. If using an xbox360 (720p output of an old 480i/480p game) with ANY TV EXCEPT A SAMSUNG, does it still have lag?
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post #93 of 718 Old 12-14-2005, 03:37 PM
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Well, I went to Circuit City a day ago and I tried the Samsung HLR4266W with just my regular xbox (composite cables only not component) and Halo 2 and I really couldn't notice any lag. The real test will be if it still performs like this when I bring my 360. Heres hoping.
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post #94 of 718 Old 12-15-2005, 11:36 AM
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I picked up a sammy HLR4667 about a week ago. I have my xbox hooked up through component. Halo/Halo 2 no issues (or i dont notice them not much of a fps fan on consoles). Forza Motorsports seems to have a slight lag in steering. I'll have to pick up a golf game to see if its just me or if the set actually lags.
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post #95 of 718 Old 12-15-2005, 02:30 PM
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I had some pretty bad lag on Sammy 42" DLP so I returned the tv. All I pretty much play is Halo 2, and it was horrible. I was getting owned everytime. Im now looking into Sonys 32" Bravia XBR and Pannys 37" Plasma.
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post #96 of 718 Old 03-06-2006, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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First post updated 3/6/2006 with lots of new information and more user-friendly guide.
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post #97 of 718 Old 03-12-2006, 01:03 AM
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So yeah, wow is this whole subject (and the process of selecting an HDTV) is starting to give me a headache. I'm a hardcore gamer. Hard. Core. I'm looking to move to HDTV now that I (finally) acquired an Xbox 360, and because I recently moved across the country and ditched my old 480i-only 25" Samsung CRT in the process of moving, since I couldn't afford a moving van and had to pack my stuff in my little Hyundai, and am (relatively) flush with cash now that I got my tax return (about 1k) and have my car paid off and can afford to save for a decent TV above that price if I'm patient.

I figure if I'm going to be buying a new TV, I might as well go with something HD for my new Xbox 360, and so that all my old Xbox/GCN/PS2 games (can, if they support it) look spiffy. Problem is, I'm pretty much screwed. My first choice was the purchase of a Viewsonic N3250W. I actually thought LCD tvs were a good idea for gaming. Must have been some leftover drugs in my system from back in the day, because what a mess that was. I should have gone to the store and checked the 480i quality. I've subsequently discovered that LCDs make 480i look like crap. Hell, this one made 480p look like crap. Colors were awful. Black levels were mediocre. Ghosting. Abysmal upconversion. The list goes on. I did my homework before purchase, but apparently I got an "F" on it.

So now, I'm wiser. But I still have a dilemma. See, now I know not to buy LCD. The problem is that I can't find a solution to everything. I'm looking at DLP now, because the price is right, but there's that whole lag issue, and given the obnoxious shortage of GCN component cables (and their subsequent scalping on Ebay for, last check, 70+ bucks), I'm going to be stuck playing any new GCN titles (Zelda Twilight Princess, anyone?) in 480i for probably a while. Plus the discontinuation of the XRGB2 (and price of it) means further headaches.

So now I'm leaning towards CRT. Good old CRT. Trouble is, apparently there's *still* lag in even HD CRTs with 480i signals. My current top choice is the Samsung TX-R3079WH. Outside of the possibility of distortion around the edges (supposedly fixable with the service menu for those of us bold enough to attempt such a feat...), it looks like it suits my needs as far as features and image quality go. Even has HDMI inputs. Trouble is, there's still that question of lag. I will be playing games in 480i, both old and new (Devil May Cry 3, for instance, is 480i only, and I haven't gotten a chance to do it justice ever since the SE came out, as I've lacked a TV that makes it look as pretty as it deserves to be), as well as 720p (how's that look on HD-CRTs btw? Acceptable or better compared to DLP?) for newer games like my Xbox360 stuff.

I'd like to go with a DLP for the large screen size and small form factor, though that whole bulb thing is annoying. I definitely don't want to wait years for SED (which is perpetually delayed, and possibly soon to be scrapped), Plasma is an option, but man is it expensive and I haven't heard a single thing in this entire thread regarding lag on a Plasma, let alone anything anywhere about how it makes 480i look compared to CRTs. One of the most frustrating things about the LCD was how it made 480i (and even 480p, to a lesser degree) look "muddy" and overly pixellated. Maybe that's just because 480i on a CRT features the poor mans' antialiasing...but honestly, I find that I prefer that vs how it looks on LCD. Maybe that's just because LCD is an overall inferior technology to every other kind of TV type out there. Jury's out on that one.

So, first up, is anyone still alive around here? Second, any advice is greatly appreciated. I know that I should go to a store and test games for my self (believe me, I will, but I'm afraid Best Buy will kick me out after I spend hours testing a ton of games, because I am that picky), but any suggestions as to ideas that don't involve tacking 300+ dollars for an upconverter on an already expensive purchase would be helpful. As it stands, the best I can come up with currently is to just have 2 TVs, one DLP/HDCRT for new school, and one oldschool CRT (thankfully they're cheap, I can get a 27" w/components for around 200-250), but that doesn't address the issue of hooking up a Home Theater and wanting to play games (including 480i ones) in surround sound...so it still isn't really a solution.

Btw Fubarduck, thank you for writing such a detailed FAQ on gaming lag on HDTVs. I knew it was there but never the extent of it, and I was close to purchasing a DLP TV until I read your faq. The whole "game mode" thing does sound like it helps, but I'm still worried about it, and will have to spot test some rhythm games (Guitar Hero!) so that I can get a feel for how acceptable it is.

God forbid I should try to play Ninja Gaiden Black on a TV that lags...
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post #98 of 718 Old 03-31-2006, 02:14 PM
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I recently purchased a 62" Mitsubishi DLP (WD-62628). I only play Madden 06 on XBOX and Guitar Hero on PS2 ... the lag is significant on Madden, kicking is ridiculous and it lags on the rest of the game as well, ableit less noticeable.

Spending $3800 on a TV that cannot play video games perfectly has been causing me lots of stress. I tried both the composite and the component cables - same results. Guitar hero is the same, lag ruins the game (if you haven't played this game, you should check it out ... it's a blast). I called Microsoft to trouble shoot, they said it was the TV and I concurred since it worked fine on my old 36" non-HD tv. I called Mitsubishi to troubleshoot and they claimed to have never heard of this problem. I just wanted someone to say they knew what I was talking about. This led me to an internet search and this thread. I've never heard of this lag problem. I called the electronics store and they are more than willing to work with me on an exchange.

However, I have no idea which TV to purchase. I'm looking for the best quality 60 or 62" HDTV for watching tv and playing video games. From what I've read on this thread, DLP is out. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, then I'll take my XBOX into the store with me. Any other pertinent information would be helpful.
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post #99 of 718 Old 03-31-2006, 03:00 PM
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dfed

Which connections and what resolution settings are you using? You may have a little better luck with 480p->720p than 480i->720p, at least. I know some X-Box games run at 720p, too... but I don't know whether Madden can or not off hand.

Someone hold technology still for a second so I can figure out what's best.
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post #100 of 718 Old 04-02-2006, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtype View Post

dfed

Which connections and what resolution settings are you using? You may have a little better luck with 480p->720p than 480i->720p, at least. I know some X-Box games run at 720p, too... but I don't know whether Madden can or not off hand.

rtype,

I'm currently using the component connections (component 2) on my tv.

I have not adjusted the settings and honestly, don't know how. I heard that Madden runs at 720p but am not sure. Is there a way to adjust the settings on the tv and/or the xbox? I saw 3 settings on the xbox settings menu for the type of TV ... adjusting to the 'wide screen' setting made the video much smaller and worse, so we have it set to normal now. I'm planning to return/exchange the TV this week.
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post #101 of 718 Old 06-11-2006, 09:23 AM
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Well, my parents own a 50 in. Phillips Ambilight Plasma, and I have seen the same thing happen there.

Even with component cables and the Gamecube on Pscan, there is a slight delay in the gameplay, rendering any game almost unplayable. Smash, Metroid, Zelda, Mario, you name it. It sucks because it was going to be the perfect TV to play on with my friends. I'm under the impression that the TV is doing the upscaling of the resolution, thus causing the lag. I've gone through this thread and some people have said that a VGA box would eliminate the lag...yet I've heard other places that it doesn't work. I don't want to buy something like that online, in case it doesn't work and I'd have to return it. Man this sucks. I tried talking to Bozon on IGN to see if he knew anything about it and he said he's heard of it and would drop it by Gerry, the IGN Gear editor. I haven't heard from him in a while so that's probably a dead end.

Man I really want this to work. If anyone has any bright ideas let me know.
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post #102 of 718 Old 06-11-2006, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin686 View Post

Well, my parents own a 50 in. Phillips Ambilight Plasma, and I have seen the same thing happen there.

Even with component cables and the Gamecube on Pscan, there is a slight delay in the gameplay, rendering any game almost unplayable. Smash, Metroid, Zelda, Mario, you name it. It sucks because it was going to be the perfect TV to play on with my friends. I'm under the impression that the TV is doing the upscaling of the resolution, thus causing the lag. I've gone through this thread and some people have said that a VGA box would eliminate the lag...yet I've heard other places that it doesn't work. I don't want to buy something like that online, in case it doesn't work and I'd have to return it. Man this sucks. I tried talking to Bozon on IGN to see if he knew anything about it and he said he's heard of it and would drop it by Gerry, the IGN Gear editor. I haven't heard from him in a while so that's probably a dead end.

Man I really want this to work. If anyone has any bright ideas let me know.

Hey, how did you get in contact with Bozon personally?

Anyway, as for your question, there is nothing you can do. A VGA box, if there is even one available for GameCube, will do nothing. No matter what, the best a GameCube can output is 480p. Your set is probably something like 720p, so it will always have to upscale the GameCube's output, and there will always be a degree of lag. It sucks, I know, and that's why I only game on 480i CRTs or my 480p plasma, but even on your HD set, the picture would look pretty crappy upscaled. Sure, it's disappointing, but there is nothing that can be done, as a solid fact. It can't be changed: there has to be lag.

Wow, I think I drilled that in pretty far...

But anyway, people who care about this lag, or even notice it, are few and far between, like us, so to the mass masses, it doesn't even matter.
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post #103 of 718 Old 06-11-2006, 01:31 PM
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Well I had PM'd Bozon about it and he luckily PM'd me back (he's pretty active on the IGN boards). I guess if it's pointless to try and find a solution then I shouldn't worry about it...still sucks though. It's too bad I can't get it fixed with firmware or something.
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post #104 of 718 Old 06-11-2006, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin686 View Post

Well I had PM'd Bozon about it and he luckily PM'd me back (he's pretty active on the IGN boards). I guess if it's pointless to try and find a solution then I shouldn't worry about it...still sucks though. It's too bad I can't get it fixed with firmware or something.

Hey there Jamin,

There are a couple of products coming up that I recommend you keep an eye on. When I have time, I'll update the FAQ with some more info about them.

Releasing in Japan on July 14th, 2006 is Micomsoft's long-anticipated XRGB-3 upscaling unit. The device has several game inputs, and has not only a VGA but also a DVI output. It supports three resolutions (1024×768/1280×1024/1600×1200) for output and also fully supports 480i, 1080i, and 720p resolutions on the D-Terminal (Component) and RGB inputs. It also has a USB port for flash upgrades via PC that will be downloadable directly from Micomsoft. I wouldn't be surprised to see some hacked firmwares down the line that support normal HDTV resolutions on the DVI output.

While the device is not designed specifically for HDTV, most LCDs/Plasmas have a resolution very close to one of those three. I'll be purchasing one myself with a detailed review soon afterwards provided I can afford one next month when the device launches.

Basically, this would allow you to completely or almost completely bypass your HDTV's internal scaler and will likely give you the ability to play your Gamecube (or any other system) completely lag-free.

Check NCSX.com in a couple of weeks and I imagine they'll take pre-orders for the XRGB-3. It will probably set you back at least $350, however, as the device retails for about that much in Japan.


The second device you might want to look out for is Splitfish's upcoming HDFX product. While the device claims to only support Playstation 2, it may possibly (hopefully) have inputs with support for other systems as well. The HDFX claims that it will upscale the output of a Playstation 2 to 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. It will also do so for a measly $30 MSRP. The HDFX launches on August 31, 2006 in the US.


While the HDFX will be had very cheaply and may "get the job done", I would definitely count on the XRGB-3 to be the best bet. It's an expensive product, but you get what you pay for and if Micomsoft puts the same quality that they put into designing the previous XRGB units, you'll have a device that you can use for years to come.
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post #105 of 718 Old 06-11-2006, 10:54 PM
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350? Yikes! I don't know if I want to game on it that badly, haha. I'm only here during the summer anyhow. Hopefully I can find some Ebayers who aren't satisfied with it at some point. The second option sounds like it'll probably be a piece...I couldn't possibly expect a $30 thing to do the job that the XRB does. I'll definitely keep up with it though. I look forward to hearing your review. I imagine we'll probably have our plasma for years to come, but I'm sure when the day comes that it kicks the bucket, I'll probably be pissed that I bought it, you know? Thanks a lot though, I appreciate it.

At school I'm pretty good though. I have my VGA cable for my PC monitor so that usually works out fine (though it sucks having to swtich the cables all the time...maybe a box might not be a bad idea at some point). It's too bad my VGA cable will be obsolete once the Wii comes out but it's been a great way to play games in my dorm thus far (no TV in my dorm).
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post #106 of 718 Old 06-14-2006, 11:37 PM
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OK, I have a 60" Sony LCoS SXRD and get the lag in default modes of PS2 gaming. The TV outputs as high as 1080i, and then upconverts to its native 1080P image. Once I switch to Game Mode, the graphic quality drops but the inputs are perfect. I test on Beatmania and Tekken 5, so I know about 1/60th of a second inputs to test lag.

Eventually I connected my PS2 via component, switched the hardware to component mode (before a game loads), and in Tekken 5, you can chage the settings to Progressive mode (540P output it says) and 16x9 mode. I turned off most of the TVs extra enhancemnts (i.e. high Digital Texture, etc.) and the game now plays perfect withOUT Game Mode turned on and it looks fantastic. I mostly play Tekken, so this issue is resolved for my primary game.

I need to tweak it for Beatmania... if I get a good combo of settings I'll report here. For now, Game Mode works well, buut the image is washed out. We'll see. I'm now less worried about the PS3. If I can tweak the output like I did for Tekken 5, then my set should look great playing next gen games at a close to perfect refresh rate.

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post #107 of 718 Old 06-15-2006, 02:58 PM
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http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html

^^A recent 2-page article on IGN's Gear site. Mainly addresses the problem and recommendations for what people should do if they're shopping for HDTVs. Explains a couple potential workarounds like the XRGB-2 and upcoming XRGB-3. Kind of wraps everything up in laymen's terms.
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post #108 of 718 Old 06-15-2006, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin686 View Post

http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html

^^A recent 2-page article on IGN's Gear site. Mainly addresses the problem and recommendations for what people should do if they're shopping for HDTVs. Explains a couple potential workarounds like the XRGB-2 and upcoming XRGB-3. Kind of wraps everything up in laymen's terms.

Good find. This article is actually accurate unlike a lot of previous attempts to tackle the issue. Gets my seal of approval this time

I'm glad we finally got the ball rolling on this issue. Maybe in a couple of years when I buy a new HDTV, it will actually play all of my video games correctly! Until then, I'll be hanging on to my humble Sony 30XBR910. It would be nice if more HDTVs could support both 480p and 1080i like this one does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGN Gear View Post

Finally, a hardware solution has been pioneered by intrepid and committed gamers on the internet that specifically targets the lag produced in up-converting 480i signals.

Thanks, I've always thought of myself as pretty intrepid ^_^

Anyway, for those interested, the Japanese release date of the XRGB-3 is July 14, 2006. Price: 38,640 yen (approx. $343.00). Check your favorite game import site soon to pick up this sure-to-be hot item.
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post #109 of 718 Old 06-18-2006, 04:27 AM
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I just got a 42" plasma. If I play games for an extended period of time, would they cause burn in on the screen? Any one with experience on this subject please let me know

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post #110 of 718 Old 06-18-2006, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wwwin View Post

I just got a 42" plasma. If I play games for an extended period of time, would they cause burn in on the screen? Any one with experience on this subject please let me know

This is not the right thread for that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php
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post #111 of 718 Old 06-20-2006, 04:57 PM
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Does anyone know if a video processor like HD Leeza can convert from 480p/720p to 1080p fast enough to eliminate video lag?

I bought a 1080p Sammy before I knew better. So I need to convert my signal to 1080p to bypass my Sammy's video processing right?
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post #112 of 718 Old 06-20-2006, 05:27 PM
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Anyone have experience with the HLS4666W? It is a 720p hdtv and has a game mode on it also and was wondering how the delay would be with an xbox 480p game with game mode enabled.

Any help is appreciated.
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post #113 of 718 Old 06-21-2006, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmp1ce View Post

Does anyone know if a video processor like HD Leeza can convert from 480p/720p to 1080p fast enough to eliminate video lag?

I bought a 1080p Sammy before I knew better. So I need to convert my signal to 1080p to bypass my Sammy's video processing right?


I don't know which Samsung 1080P model you purchased, but I have an HL-R6168. I've run several tests to measure lag on my set. I found playing Halo2 live over component inputs to have unacceptable lag at any input resolution. For my set Game mode only works with a 480i input (as stated in the owners manual), which is too low for me.
One test that I ran was to connect an old Xbox and a 360 together using Xbox system link. Each Xbox had its own monitor. I then displayed the same scene on each TV and photographed them. The scene I used was a fast moving train from the Halo2 Terminal map. From the pictures you can clearly see the progress of the train on each display. The CRT always shows the train moving farther down the track. Using the VGA input on the DLP, significantly reduced the lag but did not completely eliminate it. I find the VGA input acceptable but I'm also not the best player. I've read that the Samsung HLS series has acceptable lag over component inputs. It would be very interesting to have someone run a similar experiment to the one I ran with an HLS TV.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot.../21142/cat/508
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot.../21143/cat/508
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post #114 of 718 Old 06-21-2006, 07:44 PM
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vandu,

I have a HL-R6178W and although I haven't measured it, I am sure I have similar lag to your TV. I could tell when I played Geometry Wars that it is ALOT harder to get a high score than it should have been. After I put "game mode" on and switched to 480i I doubled my highest score on my first attempt.

Did you test the lag with a 1080p signal? What was the signal you were sending through vga? I was hoping that if I sent a 1080p signal to my TV the lag would go away.


I also wanted to add that if you have a racing game that displays milliseconds we could get a better measure of the lag from the screenshots.
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post #115 of 718 Old 06-22-2006, 04:43 AM
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dmp1ce,
I was using a 1280x720 resolution for the VGA input.
In order to run system link you need to have the same game loaded in each Xbox. I don't have two copies of a racing game but I would welcome someone else trying it.
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post #116 of 718 Old 06-27-2006, 11:17 PM
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In September of 2005 I bought a JVC LCD and opened an X-box live account, and for these past months I've been going crazy trying to figure out why I'm not doing nearly as well as expected in my game of choice; Halo 2. When I had played my friends off line and always on an old fashioned CRT I was winning about 90% of the time. I just chalked it up to the fact that on-line I'm playing gamers around the entire world and not just my small group of friends.

So I came across this thread, (thank you Fubarduck), and realized what was going on every time I play Halo2 on my Hi-def LCD 1366x768. I came to the photos that "vandu" had posted comparing DLP to standard CRT and immediately repeated the same experiment this time with my LCD. With the CRT receiveng 480i from X-box vs. LCD recieving 720P signal from XBOX360, 2 linked x-boxes, same vantage point waitin' for the train to take a snap-shot.

My results of the "vandu" experiment were very similair. By estimating the speed of the train and the distance differential between the train's location in the LCD vs. it's position on the CRT I calculated I have a lag of approximately 150 to 200 milliseconds. Vandu has a lag of about 200-250 milliseconds (DLP via component, CRT via VGA). His VGA on both looks less than 150 milliseconds. For my test I used component on LCD and regular RCA on the CRT.

I have since gone back to playing on a CRT and am now playing to my potential, and have become significantly saner now realizing that I have been playing with a handi-cap for some time and it explains my lackluster record.

Now I miss the awesome picture of my high-def monitor, but at least the gun shoots exactly when I pull the trigger. It makes a world of difference, just a tiny fraction of a second.

So I'm curious to see more posts, especially from people with LCDs on what kind of a difference any external devices and cables have made, or not made. I mean how much faster can one of these devices process video than what the display can do internally?

-Banzai-
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post #117 of 718 Old 07-05-2006, 12:26 PM
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Xbox 360 games dont lag at all for me but halo 2 does. Any one have any luck fixing the lag in halo 2?
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post #118 of 718 Old 07-09-2006, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sf49ersnfl View Post

Xbox 360 games dont lag at all for me but halo 2 does. Any one have any luck fixing the lag in halo 2?


Play on a CRT, or another non-lagging TV. 360 games DO in fact lag, which is why I play GRAW on my PC LCD monitor rather than my Samung DLP. Once you swallow the fact that the TV of your dreams can't yet do what you want it to do, you learn to move on.
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post #119 of 718 Old 07-09-2006, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UncleLog View Post

Play on a CRT, or another non-lagging TV. 360 games DO in fact lag, which is why I play GRAW on my PC LCD monitor rather than my Samung DLP. Once you swallow the fact that the TV of your dreams can't yet do what you want it to do, you learn to move on.

Or you buy a plasma...

I'll never go back to DLP for video games.
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post #120 of 718 Old 07-14-2006, 11:11 PM
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Maybe it's just me, but i bought a Mitsubishi wd- 62628 the otherday the quality on games looks pretty off. Ive mostly been playing Halo and Halo 2 and everything looks grainy and blurry.

Im pretty sure its just the TV just stretching the damn image out. So i might just go and return the TV. But even so, are there any TV's out there that are large and offer quality picture?
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