HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 718 Old 09-12-2006, 08:49 PM
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First, I hope this is in the proper section/thread.

I just purchased a Sony KDL-46XBR2 and use a HDMI connection from my HD cable box to the LCD TV.

I'm in the process of purchasing a new PC and want to have the best quality connection available to the LCD. I'm keen on having a 1GB video card but have not seen any that offer HDMI connections, only DVI. I'm also replacing an Onkyo DCR-500 with a Denon AVR 2807 or 3806 in order to move more towards the new HDMI connection.

Is anyone aware of a 1GB PC video card with a HDMI connection? I know I can buy a DVI to HDMI cable and add the audio cables but prefer to go the HDMI to HDMI route.

By the way, my preferred game is America's Army.

Thanks.
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post #182 of 718 Old 09-13-2006, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastTrack[SIN] View Post

First, I hope this is in the proper section/thread.

I just purchased a Sony KDL-46XBR2 and use a HDMI connection from my HD cable box to the LCD TV.

I'm in the process of purchasing a new PC and want to have the best quality connection available to the LCD. I'm keen on having a 1GB video card but have not seen any that offer HDMI connections, only DVI. I'm also replacing an Onkyo DCR-500 with a Denon AVR 2807 or 3806 in order to move more towards the new HDMI connection.

Is anyone aware of a 1GB PC video card with a HDMI connection? I know I can buy a DVI to HDMI cable and add the audio cables but prefer to go the HDMI to HDMI route.

By the way, my preferred game is America's Army.

Thanks.

I am pretty sure HDMI and DVI are exactly the same other than the fact that HDMI has audio.
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post #183 of 718 Old 09-14-2006, 06:13 AM
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You should also take into consideration HDCP, the copy protection protocol integrated with HDMI. I haven't had the opportunity to do any testing with this, but it is feasible that a television will simply refuse to play media connected via HDMI if it can't negotiate an appropriate HDCP handshake.
It's a good theory that you can just get an adaptor to go from DVI to HDMI, but it's really something you shoud test before blindly committing to it.
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post #184 of 718 Old 09-14-2006, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Posi View Post

Fubarduck, you aren't entirely correct with your statement that avoiding the TV's scaler is the solution to lag problems. The following items also add lag time:

Analog to Digital Converter
De-Interlacer / Interlacer

Display Type Specifics:
CRT: Electron Beam Travel
LCD and Plasma: Crystal Charge Time
DLP: Mirror Movement Time

Until a game console comes with a purely digital output there is no way to bypass the A/D Converter.

The interlacer/de-interlacer can be bypassed by keeping the consoles output (progressive or interlaced) the same as your set's native display.

And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.

mirror movement time is not the problem with DLPs, the mirrors switch at an incredible rate. From what I have read, the reason dlps lag is because they have to load an entire frame into memory to calculate the frequency at which to switch the mirror(which determines the shade). Thus you have to add at least 1 entire frame (1/60 of a second) to the lag.
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post #185 of 718 Old 09-26-2006, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GrnEggsNHam View Post

Sounds good, although I will still probably go to tweeter and test for myself. I was looking at getting a HL-S5088W and I am pleased to hear that the game mode fixes the delay.

edit: Went to tweeter and the putz there said he had never heard of anything like this and fefused to let me test it out. I kindly made my exit and headed over to Circuit City. Well sadly they were remodeling that section so the displays were all moved and not hooked up . Then I went to Best Buy and they don't have the 88's yet but I was willing to test a 87. Too bad they didn't have a HL-S5087W on display. Although the employee who was helping me insisted that if you use the component video cables for the PS2 that it does the up-converting for the TV. Is this a nice piece of mis-information? I kindly explained to him that not all PS2 games support 480p/1080i. I offered to show him the delay on one of the display models but I think he was getting tired of assisting and declined.

I think I am just going to order a HL-S5087W for a nice price and hope for the best...

Greeneggs, did you aquire this TV yet? I feel like I keep hearing positives and negatives about DLP lag, with some Samsung sets being terrible and then with other sets its not even noticable.
I'm particularly interested in your experiences with that set now because deal news recently posted this deal for a similar model. I can't post URLs yet since this is my first post...but if you go to dealnews_com and then go to 'electronics' then 'televisions' and then 'projection TVs' there is a Samsung HL-S5086W for a real good price. This is a set I'm really considering buying, but in the end it comes down to lag issues.
I'm gonna have to go down to CC or Best Buy eventually to test out the TVs with my xbox, but does anyone know the best xbox games to test out in an electronic store to determine lag time on an HDTV? I was thinking Madden 2K7, but MVP 2K5 seems like a popular choice as well...

Thanks to fubarduck for creating this thread as well as posting all the valuable information, and to everyone who else who has contributed thus far.
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post #186 of 718 Old 09-26-2006, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to write a quick note,

After messing around with the XRGB-3 for a weekend and an E-Mail conversation with Micomsoft, I've discovered the following:


- The XRGB-3 uses a frame buffer system which is unavoidable with the hardware it uses. They decided to go with the frame buffer system to keep a low price-point, as better hardware to do it without the frame buffer system would have been too expensive. So, there will always be video game lag when using its normal function mode (1024x768, 1280x1024, and 1600x1200 outputs).

- The lag is about 80-100ms for 480i material, and about 20ms for 480p material

- For this reason, they added the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode which functions similar to the XRGB-2+ and has no delay (outputting 640x480 / 480p). However, it's impossible to use DVI in this mode because the frequency in this mode cannot be outputted via DVI. It also doesn't sync as well with LCD Monitors and with arcade boards (which explains why my Supergun is unrepairably distorted in this mode).

- They're aware of all the problems but pointed out that it will take time to write and verify the firmware updates, and most of these problems are unfixable.


So, I hope that clears it up for everyone. The XRGB-3 was created and targeted for the audience that doesn't mind gaming lag and just wants to play games in a high resolution on their monitor in DVI.

Therefore, The XRGB-3 would be acceptable if you want to play console games lag-free in 640x480 / 480p, but it is not compatible with arcade boards like the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ and will not use DVI or high definition.
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post #187 of 718 Old 09-27-2006, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenobite13 View Post

Also, GoldenSilver

What I was trying to say was wouldn't it be better to put the XBOX's display at 480p even though my TV will display in 1080i because if I have the XBOX set to 1080i and I play a 480p game then it actually otputs 480i. Seems like I should keep it on 480p so that it will output 480p because supposedly the hardest thing for the TV to do is upconvert a 480i signal and that is where most of the lag comes from? What do you think? I mean it sounds counter productive to set the XBOX to display in 1080i if it just outputs most everything at 480i. Thanks again.

You can enable both 480p and 1080i on xbox at the same time and then your games will just display the highest resolution that they support when component cables are attached.
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post #188 of 718 Old 09-28-2006, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kaneda33 View Post

Greeneggs, did you aquire this TV yet? I feel like I keep hearing positives and negatives about DLP lag, with some Samsung sets being terrible and then with other sets its not even noticable.
I'm particularly interested in your experiences with that set now because deal news recently posted this deal for a similar model. I can't post URLs yet since this is my first post...but if you go to dealnews_com and then go to 'electronics' then 'televisions' and then 'projection TVs' there is a Samsung HL-S5086W for a real good price. This is a set I'm really considering buying, but in the end it comes down to lag issues.
I'm gonna have to go down to CC or Best Buy eventually to test out the TVs with my xbox, but does anyone know the best xbox games to test out in an electronic store to determine lag time on an HDTV? I was thinking Madden 2K7, but MVP 2K5 seems like a popular choice as well...

Thanks to fubarduck for creating this thread as well as posting all the valuable information, and to everyone who else who has contributed thus far.

I ordered it 9/12/06 and it finally shipped 9/26/06. So I am hoping to have it by next monday. From what I understand the HL-S5086W's do lag even in game mode. But the HL-S5087W's don't have any lag in game mode. I will know first hand here soon and post my experiences.
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post #189 of 718 Old 09-28-2006, 02:50 PM
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Hey guys, been going crazy lately after reading about lag on HDTV's . I'm a super hardcore gamer and play for hours at a time and was considering getting one of these sets:

46" Grand WEGA 3LCD Rear Projection HDTVKDF-46E2000
or
HL-S4666W 46" Widescreen DLP® HDTV with 720p Resolution

I currently use a 360 (actually getting serviced as we speak, my 3 month old box suffered from the common 0102 error ) but also want to play my Sega Saturn and Dreamcast as well. Does anyone know how the lag is on either set? From what I read, my older consoles are going to look like ass, what do I need to get to fix this? I'd like to stay in the ball park of $1500 for the TV, so any suggestions will be great. Also fubarduck, will the XRGB-3 fix my problems? Also, the sets only have HDMI and Component in, so what cables will I need?

Thanks for the time guys, really appreciate it!
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post #190 of 718 Old 09-29-2006, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Agent477 View Post


I currently use a 360 (actually getting serviced as we speak, my 3 month old box suffered from the common 0102 error ) but also want to play my Sega Saturn and Dreamcast as well. Does anyone know how the lag is on either set? From what I read, my older consoles are going to look like ass, what do I need to get to fix this? I'd like to stay in the ball park of $1500 for the TV, so any suggestions will be great. Also fubarduck, will the XRGB-3 fix my problems? Also, the sets only have HDMI and Component in, so what cables will I need?

Thanks for the time guys, really appreciate it!

You should just test your DC at the store on both TVs if possible with a game where you're familiar with the timing.

Anyway, if the Game Mode on the TV you purchase isn't satisfactory, the XRGB-3 could help you a little bit. In the normal function mode, there is a 2 frame lag (33ms) according to the instruction manual. However, I think this refers to 480p and higher signals, because I can definitely feel more lag from 480i sources. Also, most people would find the 2 frame lag to be very acceptable for their gaming habits; that's about how badly a TV's Game Mode lags. The image really looks great in 1600x1200 with DVI as well.

In the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode of the XRGB-3, you sacrafice image quality and DVI output but you get a lag-free 640x480 output through VGA.

For your Dreamcast, I would recommend using a VGA cable and either running it to the VGA port on your HDTV, or if you don't have one, to the VGA input on an XRGB-3. Some VGA to Component transcoders can also do a fine job, but a lot of them cut off some of the DC's image. My recommendation would be the X-Select D4 if you decided to go this route.

For your Saturn, you should run it to your HDTV via S-Video (I think that's as high as Saturn can go) and enable Game Mode. If the image quality is unsatisfactory, and you don't mind a slight lag, you could use the XRGB-3 to output DVI for a high quality image. If you wanted to eliminate the lag, you could use the XRGB-3 or XRGB-2+ to output VGA for an acceptable image.
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post #191 of 718 Old 09-30-2006, 01:25 AM
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Wow, fubarduck, you really know your way around obscure video conversion products. Good show.

I just wanted to add that the Saturn (like most older consoles) supports 15khz RGB, which is by far the best signal you'll get out of it. The XRGB-2 and 2+ can accept this type of signal via 21-pin SCART connector. I haven't seen the 3 but it almost certainly can as well.

It's also worth noting that Dreamcast supports RGB too, but as with its VGA support, a handful of games won't show a picture through it. RGB is a better choice for playing the system's small assortment of low-res (240p), scanlined games, such as Marvel vs. Capcom 1, KoF DM '99, Bangai-O!, and Street Fighter III: Double Impact. VGA is a better choice for the vast majority of the system's library, since it allows for progressive display of their 640x480 graphics.

You have to keep an s-video cable around to play those few games that don't work and can't be tricked into working in RGB or VGA. (So laaaaame, Sega.) Giga Wing is one that comes to mind.
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post #192 of 718 Old 10-02-2006, 06:51 PM
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Ok, Agent 477, my answer is less than simple: Wait, don't buy anything for about a year, and here are some of the reasons why I advise this. First off, it should be obvious that the television manufacturers don't like having to adjust for all of these silly formats. ie 48i,480P,720i,720P,etc.. They must do it, therefore they have a lag problem adjusting for it. Furthermore, they also don't like having to adjust, still more towards the input side, for the "scaling" of the picture sizes and differences in 4:3,16:9 ratios and the fact that even within the 16:9 ratio, the movie 16:9 and the television 16:9 are different. Ask the front projector guys that sell screens to explain all the silly formats. This causes more of that lovable bit to analogs and analogs to bit BS that we have been buying into for so long. Makes you feel smart buying digital junk until you try to use it, then you have to apologize for getting outsmarted supporting companies with your development dollars. See cell phones that don't work, and the fools that own five of them to prove it. Make the marketeers pay for the marketing.

There was a PBS/BBC series called "The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin" and in one of the episodes a silly British buffoon news anchor, with a chin like a boat anchor, needles Reggie about how it cannot possibly make sense that he has been so successful with his chain stores that sells broken and useless junk. He goes on to say surely he should feel guilty or dumb luck guilt, etc. Reggie's reply was something like, "Actually, we would rather have it break at the store so the customer will buy two of them". This was true in the late seventies and is triplely true today. I just bought a Motorola modem and it was junk, so I wasted 1.5 hours of my time doing QC for them. I bought my first XBox and it failed within thirty days and they repaired it with a used, noisy drive, and an out of balance DV-reader, and they stole all 50 CD's of music I had on the hard drive. The first DVD writers everybody had to have in their computers and laptops were near worthless, and pretty much it still is a worthless medium for data storage. Vinyl is the best and magnetic tape is the second best. Vinyl will still play words or music 50,000 years(actually longer) after we are dead, magnetic tape thousands of years, and CD's 7 years 4 months and 4 days, as long as they do not get wet or used at all. You see, we are schmucks.

OK, if you really have to have a big screen wait at least a few days and check out the 60" XRB2 rear projection Sonys that will be about as good as it gets for picture quality and response time 2.5mS(not refresh rates). The LCD's will not cut it, the plasmas go dead if you leave them off for more than 3 months, so the best of the lot will be a none DLP Sony LCOS based system. Source what Brillion TV's use? Now it has the 2.5 version of DCM, and noise reduction, and a whole bunch of other DA to AD stuff(I consider capacitors analog), and it will stretch and shrink and manipulate colors with the best of the bit clockers on the other side of the fence(DLP). All of this trash is pretty much as dumb as not using a video camera to record film, but animating instead within a two frame split(everything non-streaming data or just say microsoft). Well they had us buying that garbage for years and we raved about how fast it was, and to me it was like crapping a walnut with the shell still on (barely tolerable, yet slow, and not going anyplace else).

Seriously. Go to the super duper gizmo, speed by the speedbump, electronic stores and hook up your game box. Play Madden, Tiger Woods, and/or MVP Baseball, and you will likely find that it will not kick, swing, or hit(respectively)in the proper timing necessary to make you go home with a chub. Still scan for sexxy women on the way in and out of the store though. Anyway, there is nothing that will play better than this new 60" XBR2 RPTV, and nothing that will look sweeter for movies and HD OTA than this 1080P, except maybe a Fijitsu Plasma, or a Panny plasma or the new Panny front Projector or the Sony pearl front projector. And as is true in porn flicks and bank accounts, bigger is better. When you play any one of these games,as mentioned throughout this thread, it is the play of the swing/kick meter that will show you if the timing is on. Game mode 480P should work, or 720P if the game and feed supports it. Don't fool yourself. If this set won't do it none of the other TV's, (likely a front Projector Sony Pearl either, since it shares the same LCOS and 3 LCD concept) will do it either. It will sell at first for $3900.00, and then for about $3500.00 before XMas. If it won't fly, try the test again with all the picture massageing trash turned off, and let's hope you chubb out of the store this time.

Why would someone buy an HD TV to have the thing dim, lose contrast, and appear washed-out, when playing games?? We are Americans, so we do quality control for manufacturers for no pay. We ship their junk that they failed to burn-in and test at the factory back to them at our expense. We buy things like cell phones that don't work, and even buy them again and again and again. Someone in this thread, as wise as me, but with much more brevity and less levity said that you must realize you cannot have what you want, and move-on. If this simple, easy to assemble, and timely test works out for you, then you are home free. If not, wait at least another year before you beat yourself up. I will be doing the same test, and I am mad as hell that this has not been corrected for the 15 years these companies have been doing this, but it is what it is, and the government was more hinderance than help(like usual). GSM cell phones work very well overseas, and you do not need to give anybody your name so Uncle Swine can track your every move(except video gamer's thumbs>refresh rate faster than 1mS), or beg to sign a, worthless for you, contract to make a crappy phone call. Nope, only here would we call that a free market. Take econ 101 to realize that having monopolies is counter intuitive to quality and free market access.


Before everyone thinks I is dumb. I realize that refresh rates and Response times are different animals feeding at the same redundant trough. I also realize that scaling is more than just picture size. I also know that we are stuck with processing this stuff coming in on the front side, and that is less related to refresh rates than I made clear. What I will say is that if on the front side, and in the middle(color processing), and if at the end (2:3 dropdown or pulldown) or anywhere in-between you have to keep synchronizing, then you will have a hard time matching the near instantaneous digit-L and ocular response times. Be careful what you ask for. Oh, and I am not implying that any of you can watch streaming data smoothly on your computers(jeez I am not stupid). And I know the difference between analogue and anal-log. IMHO everything, shy of number crunching and simple run time data acquisition, that is digital, just plain sucks. Good Luck, and don't fool yourself or buy band-aids for $4000.00 products.

I have a 6 year old Sony 32" tube TV that has a beautiful picture and works well for a monitor/game. If you don't mind buying something that works for a change(joking). Also HDVHS is a lovely medium that has more longevity in its' recordings. Just for the sake of posterity.

Mark Twain, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."
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post #193 of 718 Old 10-02-2006, 08:27 PM
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Wow, that's a lot to take in :P! I do agree with waiting, cause picture quality is much more important to me than just a huge screen. It's stupid to have a huge display if everything is blurry. Instead I'll just stick to my 27" flat panel tv from panasonic! It has awesome black levels, and the image is super sharp. Until the HDTV's can replicate that image bigger, they can keep them!
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post #194 of 718 Old 10-02-2006, 09:10 PM
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Bobalou, I am still using my (squealing) 19" CRT monitor for the reasons you pointed out.

I don't game on my DLP projector - it makes me nauseaous (did I spell that right) anyways. Nevermind the response times, which I didn't bother measuring.
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post #195 of 718 Old 10-02-2006, 11:01 PM
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Actually, one of the biggest WOW factor is the size, but if you can't game with the same clarity, and without lag, then it is not worth shelling out the big schillings. 12000:1 contrast ratio on the new XRB2's RPTV will be higher than Sony claims, if it follows what others have measured by instrument in the XRB1s or the 2000A's. You should not even look at a 50" in a rear projection, because the verticle off axis viewing(standing up vs. sitting down) is too noticeable until you get to 60"s, where it is far far less noticable unless you are named kareem. The horizontal off-axis viewing is not a factor on many new ones this year.

I personally would love to play Halo on a no-lag 60" that was 180Watts bright with very deep blacks. These new RPTV's will really be as nice as it gets on movies and sports, and I do think we are right at the point where manufacturers can settle on anything higher than 1080P as being deminishing returns or not perceivable. This will focus the efforts into more effective improvements. And will drag the Over The Airs to the table at 1080P, rather than the lesser standard(s).

In defense of the TV manufacturers, they have had to waste a lot of money and engineering time on making these TV's play all of the formats well, and have done this by using digital processing. Time and money would be much better spent in the future when they will just make everything 1080P, and maybe scale-down to 720P half heartedly or with present quality + a little effort. If one has the space, and these new rear projectors with their 32bit of color processing are fast enough to play games as well as a CRT, then it may be worth buying now. These are not the rear projectors of old that looked a bit washed out, and dull detailed. These new ones are up to front projector standards and plasma standards. The old RPTV's could play video games though and had the standard 4:3 fit; when they fit the screen right. Yuckey screendoor and plasticky bulk.

Watch how fast 1080P settles in, the prices drop, and the OTA's adopt it as well as the Blue or grey HD-DVD's pop out (not the upconverting silliness), and I think we will see the technology and manufacturers give more by deliverring what one pays for. I did not mean to sound as negative as I did. Let's make a guess that the PS3 will force Sony's hand to play without lag (as was posted here before; different division of the company or not) in beautiful direct 1080P. No rear projection rainbow DLP headaches on LCOS from what I understand. I am not pimping Sony, but they are the closest to getting it right.

The average buyer of big high def. until recently(last 1.5 years or so) has always been an older than the average gamer guy looking for theater and Plasma performance for #1) sports and #2)movies. Both venues lend themselves to big screens. Neither uses true 1080P cameras throughout all shots, and there is no real stock of 1080P DVD selection yet. These buyers don't game, and the others like me that do, don't like to admit it. If I played as many hours of checkers, dominos, or monopoly collectively, as has been held by video games, I would be less emphatical about gamers being important in Big screen performance. It is important and it is a big market, but finding that out on a survey may be difficult, because less buyers will admit it pre-purchase or post-purchase. Tell the clerks you play video games, and they will pass that along, otherwise the companies will even be slower at getting around to this. As the prices drop more gamers will get into the big HDTV game, and they will equally appreciate the experience.

When people ask me about sports, I tell them that I like playing them, but not watching them. And I usually add that it should not take 3.5 to 4 hours to play and televise one game of American footbal(its likely downfall in Europe). Nearly every, if not every, Stock Car race has more fans at it than the Superbowl does. Take into account all of the free marketing on every TV station every night that football gets, and you really have a less successful venue. Get together with the boys, drink, hoot, and act like you even know the rules, but for all the marketing that makes the buffoons mimick, there are still more fans at the other gladiator sport. Playing vids is closer to playing sports than watching it. Your day is near.

All that being said, I believe this new Sony would be more than satisfactory for movies, and it would make me watch and appreciate more football games and sports, but I cannot miss that experience of playing games on the giant screen even if it was only with good 480P play resolution. Seems like a waste of money with that big of a penalty being payed. Within three years almost all movies and sports will be 1080P, because the TV networks and movie makers want the market share from what should be a fast moving 1080P platform and zealous demand for the broadcast. Seeing will be believeing.

These companies can easily process all of what they need to process, and digitally process fast enough to no-lag game, as is proven daily by computer monitor, and PC gamers. They have been too busy and less confident until recently to give that much processor and memory to the task. Memory and faster processing as a possible solution to the problem of lag vs. picture quality. This won't be necassary wihin a year, but even an accurate 480P and 720P standard for the 2 main boxes(PS2 and old XBox) if the stats warrant it, will bring me to the table. The new 360 and/or upgrade, and PS3 will need the games written also.

I wore out me welcome, but that is all I have for now.

Godspeed!!
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post #196 of 718 Old 10-03-2006, 01:00 AM
 
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Ive been gaming on a 42" Hitachi plasma, 50" Vizio plasma, Optoma H27 480p projector, Optoma H31 480p projector and the Optoma HD70 720p projector. NEVER had video game lag. Ever. This is through VGA, S-Video and Component. PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360 and Gamecube all tested.
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post #197 of 718 Old 10-03-2006, 07:23 AM
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So regrettably I don't have the time at work to read this entire thread as I would like to, so I'm going to give a lazy request.

I have a Sony KDS-R50XBR1 for a few months. I've really enjoyed the TV and I've been playing a lot of 360 games on it and they look fantastic.

I've never felt that I was suffering due to the TV (I realized there was the capability for scaling lag to exist, but didn't worry much).

Most SP and MP games I played I didn't think it was affecting me. But now I'm starting to wonder.

Some games, quicker games, made me feel like I was always a step behind when I felt I shouldn't be (Street Fighter II: HF on XBLA comes to mind, both SP and MP). Then I started reading up and saw quite a few complaints and "laggy TV" listings that contained my set. So it got me wondering what I could do to remedy the problem.

Now currently I have my 360 outputting at 1080i (because I thought the upsampling might cause some lag), but from what I'm hearing about the set, its longer in the de-interlacing than the upsampling... is that true? Would I notice less overall lag by setting my 360 to output 720p and then the set would only have to upsample and not deinterlace. or am I offbase.

Additionally if any other XBR owners have any experience/recommendations with this please don't hesitate to chime in. All input is appreciated.

Thanks,
aC
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post #198 of 718 Old 10-03-2006, 09:35 AM
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Thanks blitz6speed for the encouragement. This follows what I have read and heard about Plasma and front projection. It is the fact that I travel for over 3 months on occasion, and some other burn-in idiosychratic caharacteristics of Plasma that I cannot own it. I want a new front projector from Sony or Panasonic, but they still are not cheap enough at $4500.00(add another $1k for screen, scaler?, tuner, cables, mounts, etc.), and they also are adding more color massageing to these devices to improve the contrast ratios into that 10K to 15k range that is not inherent on the older stuff. The manufacturers can do all of this fast enough(and actually cheap to do) to avoid any accrued tolerance lag, but will they. If it was a $500.00 device, I would not worry. The biggest problem for me is I wanted to buy soon, and now have to give that up until I can prove that the device will do all of the interlace/deinterlace or direct interpretation without lag, and in the mode that is the best picture or minimal reduction in picture quality. Otherwise I feel we are near the plateau of picture quality I will need for 6 years or more. It is likely that the 1080P is not very noticeable under 60" yet, but if I were to buy now(cheaper 720P), I don't want to re-buy in a year. It does seem worth paying for the 1080P in the front projectors soon, but not this year. I have a feeling that other semi-knowledgeable buyers are fence sitting for some of the same reasons. The front projector Panasonic(November release 1000e?) is smoothing the screendoor, and likely noise reduction as is being managed in the Sony Pearl, so did either allocate enough processor?, or are they avoiding the commitment to that as a sure solution to their needs. The Trillions of colors, like scanners have had for over 5 years, are coming soon too, (I know some are out there), and the main reason I suspect they have not been available in HDTV(aside from lack of demand due to lower resolution HD and regular TV) is the time it takes to process and spit the data. Even after warm-up, a scanner cannot do mS response times, nor does it need to. Scanners are often rated as to how fast they can read and process the trillions of colors accurately within a 2400dpi or 4800dpi or whatever format, and the more detail, the slower they get. I suspect, HDTV's have to compromise down to Billions of colors(even at 32 bit), so as to instead be able to process as fast as they do. A $130.00 4800 or better scanner, and a $50.00 reflex camera will make your $3000.00 digital camera look like a waste, and it will work faster than the driver devices and mix/mismatched components it takes to get the picture right from the digital camera, and finally processed through the printer drivers. Maybe we are just shy of being ready for prime time within my anal budget constraints. My cell phone only works well enough and cheap enough overseas(even with the overprinted weak dollar), and I would not even own one here. In Thailand or Europe, it takes me three minutes to buy a chip, put it in, and be talking, without giving my name, and with cheap predictable rates. Frugal can be better, and so much for our claim to efficiency. Hopefully, I nicely suggested earlier that there is little new and good to watch, even in movies.
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post #199 of 718 Old 10-19-2006, 12:25 AM
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I have been a "Sony" person for many years - I recently lose a 25" sony moitor that I have had for over 15 years (I have a sony betamax that still works great )

3 years ago I purchase a Sony RPT - and a few weeks ago the blue lens craped out and last week the red one - to say that this a disapointing turn of events would be an understatement - and I did not play any games on it (wish I had)

So am I a isolated case? OR is this a trent - the tech from the store (decated AV store) says that it was a trent and not uncommon - so where Does one go from here
Any one know anything - think I will stick to LCD/Plasmas - So far $2000 for 3 yuears is not getting my money's worth

Bobalou are there any treads here on setting up LCDs and ATI video cards I searched but got very little

Thanks

Starship Warrior
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post #200 of 718 Old 10-20-2006, 09:13 PM
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Just making sure i read everything correctly,

if i play a PS3 game that runs at 720p on a TV thats native is 1080p i shouldnt experiance much if any lag?

PS3 game at 1080p on a tv with 720p native shouldnt have much lag either? because i can just set the ps3 to send in 720p

only if im translting from Interlaced to Progressive and having to upscale from a 420 will the lag be noticable?

I understand that there is no ZERO lag when having to upconvert but, just talking about a generality.
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post #201 of 718 Old 10-21-2006, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz6speed View Post

Ive been gaming on a 42" Hitachi plasma, 50" Vizio plasma, Optoma H27 480p projector, Optoma H31 480p projector and the Optoma HD70 720p projector. NEVER had video game lag. Ever. This is through VGA, S-Video and Component. PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360 and Gamecube all tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The FAQ View Post

Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aC39 View Post

Now currently I have my 360 outputting at 1080i (because I thought the upsampling might cause some lag), but from what I'm hearing about the set, its longer in the de-interlacing than the upsampling... is that true? Would I notice less overall lag by setting my 360 to output 720p and then the set would only have to upsample and not deinterlace. or am I offbase.

You could try outputting to 720p. The lag is usually pretty unnoticeable in any HD resolution, but it might be a couple of frames behind at 1080i which is all it takes to feel in a Street Fighter game. The problem is, there's no easy way to measure this since the X-Box 360 can only output one High Def resolution at a time. I'm looking forward to the 1080p update personally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsjoker View Post

Just making sure i read everything correctly,
-snip-
I understand that there is no ZERO lag when having to upconvert but, just talking about a generality.

Yes, you have the right idea.
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post #202 of 718 Old 10-21-2006, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

You could try outputting to 720p. The lag is usually pretty unnoticeable in any HD resolution, but it might be a couple of frames behind at 1080i which is all it takes to feel in a Street Fighter game. The problem is, there's no easy way to measure this since the X-Box 360 can only output one High Def resolution at a time. I'm looking forward to the 1080p update personally.

Will the 1080P update on the 360 eliminate all lag on 1080P TVs? Or would there still potentially be lag with games that were made at lower resolutions, even though the XBOX is doing the upconverting? (e.g., Halo 2)?
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post #203 of 718 Old 10-21-2006, 03:27 PM
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I see this product is finally out. Is anyone planning on testing it out?

http://www.xploder.net/products/148/...DTV-Player.htm

Cush
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post #204 of 718 Old 10-21-2006, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro777 View Post

Will the 1080P update on the 360 eliminate all lag on 1080P TVs? Or would there still potentially be lag with games that were made at lower resolutions, even though the XBOX is doing the upconverting? (e.g., Halo 2)?

If you're outputting 1080p with the X360 on to a 1080p TV, the lag should only equal as much as it takes for the X360 to do the upscaling (which shouldn't be much). While nobody has exact numbers, less than one frame or 1/60th of a second is ideal and I believe the X360's upscaling is very close to that target if not there already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

I see this product is finally out. Is anyone planning on testing it out?

http://www.xploder.net/products/148...HDTV-Player.htm

Cush

As soon as I get my copy
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post #205 of 718 Old 10-23-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

If you're outputting 1080p with the X360 on to a 1080p TV, the lag should only equal as much as it takes for the X360 to do the upscaling (which shouldn't be much). While nobody has exact numbers, less than one frame or 1/60th of a second is ideal and I believe the X360's upscaling is very close to that target if not there already.

So it wouldn't be nearly as noticeable as sending a 1080i or 720P signal w/ the xbox and having the TV upscale to 1080P?
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post #206 of 718 Old 10-26-2006, 12:04 PM
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Hi, I have been reading that the current generation of Samsung HDTV's have faster processors in them completly eliminating the videogame lag issue. Is this true?

Also, if I get a HD LCD Projector, and hook it up(I am thinking about the cheap ones at staples). Will I get videogame lag going through the projector? How would that work with the nintendo wii sensor bar?

Thanks
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post #207 of 718 Old 10-26-2006, 12:08 PM
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I was looking at this projector

Infocus IN24 DLP Projector

will it give me video game lag problems
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post #208 of 718 Old 10-26-2006, 01:38 PM
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So are we ever going to see HDTV's with built-in scalers and deinterlacers that completely (or very close to completely) eliminate gaming lag?

Are there any processors currently or in the future than can do both quality deinterlacing/scaling and eliminate lag?
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post #209 of 718 Old 10-27-2006, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddlefoot View Post

So are we ever going to see HDTV's with built-in scalers and deinterlacers that completely (or very close to completely) eliminate gaming lag?

Hopefully one day, but not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paddlefoot View Post

Are there any processors currently or in the future than can do both quality deinterlacing/scaling and eliminate lag?

Yes! The iScan VP20/VP30 with ABT102D Deinterlacing Card and the iScan VP50 are the current scalers that can completely eliminate lag while outputting any HD resolution. These devices can deinterlace and scale to your chosen HD resolution with less than 1 frame of lag with the special Game mode turned on, better than any HDTV's built in scaler can do (even considering Game modes).

As for the future, while nothing else has been announced yet, I wouldn't be surprised if another product was released eventually to specifically target HDTV gaming lag.
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post #210 of 718 Old 10-27-2006, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fubarduck View Post

Hopefully one day, but not yet.


Yes! The iScan VP20/VP30 with ABT102D Deinterlacing Card and the iScan VP50 are the current scalers that can completely eliminate lag while outputting any HD resolution. These devices can deinterlace and scale to your chosen HD resolution with less than 1 frame of lag with the special Game mode turned on, better than any HDTV's built in scaler can do (even considering Game modes).

Are there any other devises like this that are cheaper?
Does this thing really work?
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