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post #1 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I've asked this question on other sites, but maybe someone here actually has an answer.

When comparing games, videos, etc. that are available for both 360 and PS3, I've noticed the PS3 versions shine. Not in a good way, but literally have a shine to them. Like Taki's outfit in a Soul Calibur movie. Why is her purple clothing shining like it's emiting it's own light? My wife made a comment that it made things look "waxy." She first said that during the PS3 version of the Stranglehold demo while looking at the fruit. Also, the shadows don't show the same detail. I can see much more in the shadows of the 360 versions.

With the new GTA trailer, I saw a lot more detail in the textures on the 360s video. Like the tower, bridge, and buildings during the scene with the helicopter flying over the water.

I'm using a Samsung DLP (720p) tv with the PS3 hooked up via HDMI and the 360 via VGA. After setting the TV up with Digital Video Essentials on all inputs, I leave the VGA alone and the 360 games look great. When playing the PS3 I have to really really turn down the contrast and brightness (which makes the blu-ray movies look a bit "off"). I have the RGB range set to "full" which definitley helped improve the picture from what it was when I first bought the PS3, but the lighting and shadowing are still off.

I've read other PS3 owners express the same situation but I've never read an explanation or a way to tweak the settings so that the games look good without messing with the picture quality of blu-ray movies. Also, no other device I have produces the same effect the PS3 does on any of my inputs. I don't believe it's an issue with my HDTV or it's inputs.

Any ideas why there is so much difference? Any suggestions for internal PS3 settings or minor HDTV settings to correct this without altering the picture so much that blu-ray movies don't look as good?
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post #2 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 10:22 AM
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Umm, regarding the GTA4 video, I think they are all running off one system. I don't think Rockstar made one video with the 360 version and then the exact same video with the PS3 version. So I don't know what you are talking about with that.

The fact of the matter, though, is that the PS3 ports are almost universally inferior to the originals. Eurogamer has run 6 comparisons, where they take a batch of games and compare the two, and the amount of games superior on PS3 could be counted on one hand. Out of like 45 games.

Ports tend to inferior as a matter of course. Put Uncharted or Motorstorm on the 360 and they will not run as well, even if the 360 could in theory handle them. A lot of these games and their engines were designed for 360. So the ports might be inferior even if the systems were similar. However, the 360 and PS3 architectures are very different - 360 has one 512 meg RAM bank while the PS3 has 256 and 256 video, 360's CPU is triple-core while the PS3's is one core with six subprocessor units running, etc.

I have a feeling a lot of these games are not taking the PS3's SPEs into account. They are running off a the Cell's single core main processor. This is not the way the system was designed to run, though, and it can't keep up with the 360's CPU.

Insomniac has said the new version of their engine (R&C) can display more detail on screen at 60fps than the old version (Resistance) could at 30fps. And it certainly shows. They did this by moving systems from the main processor to the SPE.

If publishers are not willing to do that, and several including EA have not shown they care to, the ports will continue to be inferior. Always. There's no reason for these ports to be so weak and games like DiRT have proven they don't have to be but they are.

Regarding the shininess, it is probably a difference in the way the PS3's GPU handles shaders or lightng or something. And one again publishers have shown little concern about optimizing these games properly for the PS3.

Hopefully as PS3's installed base grows they will care more. For now, all my PS3 games are exclusives.
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post #3 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Regarding the shininess, it is probably a difference in the way the PS3's GPU handles shaders or lightng or something. And one again publishers have shown little concern about optimizing these games properly for the PS3.

Hopefully as PS3's installed base grows they will care more. For now, all my PS3 games are exclusives.

It's not just multiplatform games. The Uncharted demo had the same issue, so I don't think it's entirely a porting issue. Even for exclusives, I have to crank down my settings. How the GPU handles shading and lighting could be the cause. If that is the case, looks like I'll have to try and find a happy medium between the in-game settings for my HDTV and settings for blu-ray playback.

Thanks for such a thorough response! And I also only buy exclusives for the PS3. Mostly because I prefer the controller on the 360 soooooooo much more.
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post #4 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 11:19 AM
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My .02 (and factor in I don't own a 360)..........I think it's a combination of several "issues".

a) Single vs divided RAM
b) 3 procs vs a single proc w/ specialized sub-procs
c) GPU

The 360 is easier to manage from a development standpoint & from what I've seen the biggest difference appears to be the GPU. I simply don't think the PS3 can handle the textures or the lighting that the 360 can do. Every single multi-platform game I've seen the PS3 version always looks a bit "texture light". I suspect, though there's no proof, that the GPU limits the PS3 in final graphics. You can use the cell's to offload some work but for things like textures you'll need bigger chunks of RAM....divided RAM bites the PS3 in the butt here.

On the other side I don't think the 360 can match the PS3's physics capabilities - I don't think it could handle the "motorstorm" style wrecks.

Each one has it's strengths & weaknesses........overall I'd say both work very well & provide an excellent gaming experience.

It's just my opinion & it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
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post #5 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey151 View Post

My .02 (and factor in I don't own a 360)..........I think it's a combination of several "issues".

a) Single vs divided RAM
b) 3 procs vs a single proc w/ specialized sub-procs
c) GPU

The 360 is easier to manage from a development standpoint & from what I've seen the biggest difference appears to be the GPU. I simply don't think the PS3 can handle the textures or the lighting that the 360 can do. Every single multi-platform game I've seen the PS3 version always looks a bit "texture light". I suspect, though there's no proof, that the GPU limits the PS3 in final graphics. You can use the cell's to offload some work but for things like textures you'll need bigger chunks of RAM....divided RAM bites the PS3 in the butt here.

On the other side I don't think the 360 can match the PS3's physics capabilities - I don't think it could handle the "motorstorm" style wrecks.

Each one has it's strengths & weaknesses........overall I'd say both work very well & provide an excellent gaming experience.

First, I have to say I love your sig!

I never intended this to be a vs. topic, so please don't get that idea. I suppose I was hoping to find a "why" that could lead to a tweak so that I could tone down the shine from the PS3. When I cut it down, games like Uncharted really do look good. Darker games like Folklore also look pretty good. The problem I'm having is the same HDTV with the same calibration using the same console (the PS3) and getting such vast brightness/contrast output difference when I switch from a game to a blu-ray disc. And since I have multiple devices connected through my HDTVs HDMI input now (thanks to my receiver providing HDMI passthrough up to 1080p), I can't correct the PS3 visuals through the TV to display games properly. My whole family uses this TV for DVD and HD-DVDs (through an A3 HD-DVD player), blu-rays (throught the PS3), and video games (360 from VGA and PS3 from HDMI). So tweaking the settings to make a game look good diminish the picture quality of all our movies. It's a bit frustrating.
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post #6 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey151 View Post

My .02 (and factor in I don't own a 360)..........I think it's a combination of several "issues".

a) Single vs divided RAM
b) 3 procs vs a single proc w/ specialized sub-procs
c) GPU

The 360 is easier to manage from a development standpoint & from what I've seen the biggest difference appears to be the GPU. I simply don't think the PS3 can handle the textures or the lighting that the 360 can do. Every single multi-platform game I've seen the PS3 version always looks a bit "texture light". I suspect, though there's no proof, that the GPU limits the PS3 in final graphics. You can use the cell's to offload some work but for things like textures you'll need bigger chunks of RAM....divided RAM bites the PS3 in the butt here.

On the other side I don't think the 360 can match the PS3's physics capabilities - I don't think it could handle the "motorstorm" style wrecks.

Each one has it's strengths & weaknesses........overall I'd say both work very well & provide an excellent gaming experience.

I disagree. The PS3 can do anything the 360 can do just fine, it all depends on how well the developers choose to optimize their game for the PS3. Look at Oblivion on the PS3 versus the 360, the textures were better and the lighting was just as good (in fact they brightened it up a bit so it was easier to see what the hell was in some of the really dark environments). Dunno about the 360 and physics but I'm sure the 360 can handle it.

From what I've seen though so far games that being developed exclusively for the PS3 (Uncharted and Ratchet come to mind recently) look better than games being developed exclusively for the 360 or being developed for the 360 and PS3.
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post #7 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 12:29 PM
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I think Uncharted's look is just an artistic decision, and honestly if you feel the need to tweak it probably just comes down to personal taste. Not quite sure what to tell you, Uncharted's look is fine for me. Though a lot of games really do go overboard with the lighting on all systems, I remember STALKER sometimes the light on the walls look like someone smeared grease all over it. Most games have built-in brightness settings, that might work for you. I think Uncharted does.
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post #8 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

I think Uncharted's look is just an artistic decision, and honestly if you feel the need to tweak it probably just comes down to personal taste. Not quite sure what to tell you, Uncharted's look is fine for me. Though a lot of games really do go overboard with the lighting on all systems, I remember STALKER sometimes the light on the walls look like someone smeared grease all over it. Most games have built-in brightness settings, that might work for you. I think Uncharted does.

Yeah, Uncharted does have an in-game brightness setting (thankfully!). I wish more did. It would fix my whole issue.

But, with so many games producing that shine, I don't think it's artistic for any title.
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post #9 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bkchurch View Post

I disagree. The PS3 can do anything the 360 can do just fine,..........................

Well if that were the case then they'd use the same approach. They are different, whether or not it matter is the key.

The 360 GPU is more powerful, no real way to argue it. It can so things the PS3 can not - just the way it is. You can offload some processing but in the end the GPU has to push the image. Shared memory is easier to work with - who needs it gets it.....and it has a larger area to buffer textures. The 360 can in no way match the pure number crunching of the PS3 - power that would be very nice for a physics engine.

It's not a case of one being "better" they just have strengths & weaknesses. I don't think either unit has been "maxed" out yet...............we'll see.

Besides it's not like I'm watching every pixel down the stretch in the last lap of motorstorm anyway

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Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post

I never intended this to be a vs. topic, so please don't get that idea.

And neither was my post. They're just different. They have different approaches. As I said both provide an excellent gaming experience = it's all good.

Sorry, of no help in the settings - sounds like a PITA.

It's just my opinion & it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
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post #10 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 01:59 PM
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I hav'nt seen a game look waxy..

lol

My mom works for Sony, and she brought home a copy of "Starhawk BETA"
I quickly slipped it into my trusty PS3, and started playing.


GOOZEX Game/Movie Exchange
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post #11 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 05:22 PM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I think its been unanimously decided that the 360 gpu is better and the ps3 cpu is better, right? The gpu does most of the work when it comes to graphics right...I mean thats what they're there for. So as far as I'm concerned
360=better gpu=better graphics
ps3=better cpu=better physics/AI and stuff

Tell me if I'm wrong cuz I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this.

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post #12 of 26 Old 12-07-2007, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chase117 View Post

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I think its been unanimously decided that the 360 gpu is better and the ps3 cpu is better, right? The gpu does most of the work when it comes to graphics right...I mean thats what they're there for. So as far as I'm concerned
360=better gpu=better graphics
ps3=better cpu=better physics/AI and stuff

Tell me if I'm wrong cuz I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this.

This is what every gaming site and professional breakdown I've read has put up in laymens terms. Unless I'm too layman to get what they were all saying.

Never mattered to me too much, though. My favorite games are rarely the uber pretty ones. I prefer gameplay and control. The latter being why I prefer the 360.
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post #13 of 26 Old 12-08-2007, 10:50 AM
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To answer the original question, the shiney/waxy look is an artistic choice and not specific to either system. Both system have games where models are overly shiney. These new systems offer developers choices in shaders that weren't available previously and a lot of them seem to be going overboard with them to try to give their games that "next-gen" look. It's sort of like in the 80's when every 3D flying logo had a gawdy lens flair effect. It's the new tool in the artist's bag of tricks and once the newness wears off, you'll see it being used more tastefully.
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post #14 of 26 Old 12-08-2007, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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To answer the original question, the shiney/waxy look is an artistic choice and not specific to either system. Both system have games where models are overly shiney. These new systems offer developers choices in shaders that weren't available previously and a lot of them seem to be going overboard with them to try to give their games that "next-gen" look. It's sort of like in the 80's when every 3D flying logo had a gawdy lens flair effect. It's the new tool in the artist's bag of tricks and once the newness wears off, you'll see it being used more tastefully.

If this is true, then why is it not always on the same cross-platform game? An example like I mentioned before was the Stranglehold demo. Using the same TV with both settings calibrated (one HDMI and one VGA), the PS3 version had too much shine on things and made the fruit in the alley look like fake fruit. The 360 version's lighting wasn't overblown like that. The lighting and shadows were more subtle and effective (and detailed in the shadows). Are the programmers for the PS3 versions the cause, then?
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post #15 of 26 Old 12-08-2007, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post

If this is true, then why is it not always on the same cross-platform game? An example like I mentioned before was the Stranglehold demo. Using the same TV with both settings calibrated (one HDMI and one VGA), the PS3 version had too much shine on things and made the fruit in the alley look like fake fruit. The 360 version's lighting wasn't overblown like that. The lighting and shadows were more subtle and effective (and detailed in the shadows). Are the programmers for the PS3 versions the cause, then?

Are you sure that your VGA and HDMI inputs are calibrated correctly? Since your two systems are going through different inputs, it is difficult to make a scientific comparison between the two, as the conditions are not identical.
Also, I can almost guarantee that the 360 and PS3 GTA IV videos were recorded off one system, although no one can say whether it was the 360 or the PS3. This suggests that the perceived difference in video output between the two is either a product of your imagination, which is unlikely, or is related to the difference between the VGA and HDMI inputs on your TV.
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post #16 of 26 Old 12-08-2007, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post

If this is true, then why is it not always on the same cross-platform game? An example like I mentioned before was the Stranglehold demo. Using the same TV with both settings calibrated (one HDMI and one VGA), the PS3 version had too much shine on things and made the fruit in the alley look like fake fruit. The 360 version's lighting wasn't overblown like that. The lighting and shadows were more subtle and effective (and detailed in the shadows). Are the programmers for the PS3 versions the cause, then?

Well with VGA you can't change as many settings and make it over saturated etc as you can with HDMI. VGA is a cleaner more pure output like a PC, while HDMI is more like a standard TV signal. I prefer the VGA signal on my 360 over the PS3 HDMI output to the same TV. For one thing VGA allows 1:1 pixel mapping and is sharper. The HDMI doesn't allow this and has more edge ringing and just isn't as sharp. You can though adjust the color more with HDMI so just try tweaking it more.
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post #17 of 26 Old 12-09-2007, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post

Are you sure that your VGA and HDMI inputs are calibrated correctly? Since your two systems are going through different inputs, it is difficult to make a scientific comparison between the two, as the conditions are not identical.
Also, I can almost guarantee that the 360 and PS3 GTA IV videos were recorded off one system, although no one can say whether it was the 360 or the PS3. This suggests that the perceived difference in video output between the two is either a product of your imagination, which is unlikely, or is related to the difference between the VGA and HDMI inputs on your TV.

If it is imagination, then it's contagious 'cause my whole family has it (and a few friends).

Yes, my set has been calibrated by techs when they've had to do work on it. Like I said, no other device hooked up to HDMI displays the way the PS3 does, and the PS3 doesn't do it on blu-rays. Games (or game videos) only.
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post #18 of 26 Old 12-10-2007, 05:58 PM
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I personally thought that the stranglehold demo looked like crap on the ps3, I think that there was a lot of unfinished (graphical) business going on in the demo. I have a 60" panasonic 1080p plasma so all of my games put a welders burn on my retna's.

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post #19 of 26 Old 12-10-2007, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I personally thought that the stranglehold demo looked like crap on the ps3, I think that there was a lot of unfinished (graphical) business going on in the demo. I have a 60" panasonic 1080p plasma so all of my games put a welders burn on my retna's.

LOL! Well, at least it's consistent. That's part of my problem; it's only the PS3s games (or game video) that does it. Blu-ray comes out fine.
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post #20 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 11:41 AM
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It's not just PS3 games that have the "Wax" effect. Look at Mass Effect for an example, or more specifically, the faces in mass effect (They are so glossy, it's ridiculous). Luckily, some game devs are starting to realize that everyone has different tastes, and they are putting in options to change the look (Mass Effect for example lets you add/remove a "Cinema" effect, which is basically noise overlaid on the picture. It also lets you add/remove motion blur, and change around the color settings). By next gen, we should have as many options to change around as PC gamers (like enabling/disabling anti-aliasing, and changing the texture detail etc) or atleast, that it what I am hoping for.
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post #21 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SamuraiXmas View Post

It's not just PS3 games that have the "Wax" effect. Look at Mass Effect for an example, or more specifically, the faces in mass effect (They are so glossy, it's ridiculous). Luckily, some game devs are starting to realize that everyone has different tastes, and they are putting in options to change the look (Mass Effect for example lets you add/remove a "Cinema" effect, which is basically noise overlaid on the picture. It also lets you add/remove motion blur, and change around the color settings). By next gen, we should have as many options to change around as PC gamers (like enabling/disabling anti-aliasing, and changing the texture detail etc) or atleast, that it what I am hoping for.

Haven't gotten to Mass Effect yet. I got a new HD audio capable receiver instead (LOVIN' movies and games in 7.1!). This is the first I've heard of a 360 game having that waxy/shine thing without it being due to someones settings. Instead of waiting to buy the game like I was going to, maybe I'll rent it in the mean time to look at what you see.

On another note, anyone know if changing my PS3 settings to output RGB vs. YBrGr (or whatever the actual letters are ) will make a difference? I haven't really noticed one, but maybe there's other tweaks (in the console or my HDTV) that would make the difference more apparent?
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post #22 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post

Haven't gotten to Mass Effect yet. I got a new HD audio capable receiver instead (LOVIN' movies and games in 7.1!). This is the first I've heard of a 360 game having that waxy/shine thing without it being due to someones settings. Instead of waiting to buy the game like I was going to, maybe I'll rent it in the mean time to look at what you see.

On another note, anyone know if changing my PS3 settings to output RGB vs. YBrGr (or whatever the actual letters are ) will make a difference? I haven't really noticed one, but maybe there's other tweaks (in the console or my HDTV) that would make the difference more apparent?

This is about the best screenshot that I could find on google of what I am talking about

It's not only that though, there are other graphical bugs on their faces aswell. It's too hard to explain, but it's a bit like fuzz in clumps on their faces. The game is pretty good overall, but there are alot of small problems that keep it from being as good as Kotor. If the face glitches are just my disc or my 360, I'd love for anyone else that has Mass Effect to say so, but all other games are fine on my 360.

Oh and for what it's worth, I can't tell the difference between RGB and the other one. (Ygb whatever)
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post #23 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The faces in that screen shot make the character look sweaty. What I'm talking about is a bit more drastic. The worst so far have been the PS3 Soul Calibur videos. Characters wearing cloth are as glow-in-the-dark shiney as the characters in mirror-like armor. The same videos don't display that when viewed on the 360 movies. An up close face shot in the opening video of Uncharted had a similar issue. I've since cut the contrast pretty drastically, but I don't know how long I can BS my wife on why all our other inputs that run through HDMI (our HDTV only has one HDMI in and is receiving signals from whatever we switch the input to on our audio/video receiver) don't look "right" to her. I'm still tweaking to find a happy medium. Which is why I thought I'd ask about the RGB vs. the Y-whatever since I can't tell a difference.
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post #24 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 08:33 PM
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That sweaty sheen is there the entire time. Really it's hard to show in screenshots, but I know what you are talking about. It's as if they have a layer of plastic wrap over their faces/bodies in some games. Luckily most games aren't like that.
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post #25 of 26 Old 12-12-2007, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SamuraiXmas View Post

That sweaty sheen is there the entire time. Really it's hard to show in screenshots, but I know what you are talking about. It's as if they have a layer of plastic wrap over their faces/bodies in some games. Luckily most games aren't like that.

LOL! The plastic wrap is a very VERY good description. So you're getting that on your 360 as well, then? Hmm. Maybe I'm not noticing it on my 360 because it's hooked up through an analog signal and my HDTV works better with digital signals and I'm seeing all the flaws on the PS3 that my HDTV isn't displaying quite right for the 360 (even though they both look astounding).
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post #26 of 26 Old 12-13-2007, 01:49 AM
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Sounds to me like you're just talking about some of the "next-gen" lighting effects for facial textures. Some games have it worse than others. PS3 games tend to look brighter at default/native display settings than 360 games, so the PS3 probably brings out that effect more starkly than the other.

Games like Stranglehold have it really bad. The latest Tony Hawk game also looks pretty shiny-faced. The "plastic wrap" analogy is a good one. I've always thought of it as characters being coated in oil. Regardless, it's the fault of individual developers not the consoles.

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