Want my SNES to output RGB/Component - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 07-14-2010, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a DVDO Edge so it might make this process easier (I know it was the only way to get Dreamcast to work over VGA on my non-VGA TV) but I have an American SNES and cannot for the life of me find a guide on getting it to output RGB/Component. Seems like PAL users were lucky enough to have SCART and can just buy adapters to covert that to component or VGA. I, however, am not so lucky.

I'm decent with a soldering iron if that matters. Also, it's the original SNES, not the Jr. or SNES 2 or whatever. Any help would be much appreciated.
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post #2 of 39 Old 07-14-2010, 09:33 PM
 
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http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4042

You'll have to dig through the crap, but this thread looks to be valuable. It also links here:

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

Which seems to cover the technical differences between the NTSC and PAL SNES 1. It short, it looks like you need a SNES RGB SCART cable, and then a SCART RGB to component transcoder. You may also need to modify the SCART cable with some resistors to get luma in to spec, as the NTSC version of the console looks to lack those parts on board.

Or, if what you are looking for is super-clean SNES, you can look in to emulation, or hook up a Wii component and run Virtual Console titles.
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post #3 of 39 Old 07-15-2010, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4042

You'll have to dig through the crap, but this thread looks to be valuable. It also links here:

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

Which seems to cover the technical differences between the NTSC and PAL SNES 1. It short, it looks like you need a SNES RGB SCART cable, and then a SCART RGB to component transcoder. You may also need to modify the SCART cable with some resistors to get luma in to spec, as the NTSC version of the console looks to lack those parts on board.

Or, if what you are looking for is super-clean SNES, you can look in to emulation, or hook up a Wii component and run Virtual Console titles.

Thanks for your reply. I just prefer to use the real SNES. I know I can do an emulator and just output it to my TV

Edit: There's some SCART to HDMI converters on ebay. Should I just go that route? They are double the price of the SCART to YUV (component) but maybe they are better for what I'm trying to do? Or possibly worse?
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post #4 of 39 Old 07-15-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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When buying SCART-to-whatever converters, you need to be careful. The SCART plug can carry a variety of video signal types, ranging from composite to RGB. So, if a SCART-to-HDMI adapter is taking the composite signal and converting it to HDMI, that will look far worse than if it is taking the RGB signal for the conversion. You could also run in to the problem where the SNES SCART cable is spitting out RGB, and the SCART-to-HDMI adapter is looking for composite or s-video to convert from, which would result in no picture as those signals probably aren't present in your SNES cable.

In short "RGB SCART" is your keyword, not just "SCART".

Things can still go wrong with descriptions though, as at this point you are looking at older gear. Most sellers probably don't even know what they have in hand so are just writing a description based on what they think the thing is, or what the engrish on the box says.
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post #5 of 39 Old 07-15-2010, 02:19 PM
 
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Oh, crap! Also, you need to know that any conversion you do is going to break your image anyway. The SNES spits out 240p, which modern HDTVs don't understand and just treat as 480i. The resulting image physically works, but is far blockier than 240p on an SDTV is. Doin a quick look on ebay, the HDMI adapters convert to 720p, which if possible it would be nice to avoid. Also, some HD scalers completely choke on 240p, resulting in half the image being pushed off the screen and odd side-effects like flashing. Any scaler inside of an HDMI converter box may choke on 240p in the same fashion.

All I'm saying is that on top of finding the right cables and adapters, of the correct video format type, you'll also need a healthy dose of luck for it all to even work.
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post #6 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 06:18 AM
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To be quite honest, even though many people don't like it, pc emulation is still the best method to play old systems on a modern hdtv.
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post #7 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

To be quite honest, even though many people don't like it, pc emulation is still the best method to play old systems on a modern hdtv.

Due to implications of piracy, I could of course never, ever endorse this method.



But I hear this is pretty awesome, and would support exactly what you described: http://www.amazon.com/Classic-USB-Su...9294645&sr=1-1

-vdz
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post #8 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoozen View Post

Due to implications of piracy, I could of course never, ever endorse this method.



But I hear this is pretty awesome, and would support exactly what you described: http://www.amazon.com/Classic-USB-Su...9294645&sr=1-1

-vdz

Emulation doesn't always mean piracy though, if you emulate disc-based systems.
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post #9 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 08:02 PM
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Bsnes aims for perfect emulation if you're one of those guys.
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post #10 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoozen View Post

Due to implications of piracy, I could of course never, ever endorse this method.

Well if actually own a copy of the game than I don't think it's really piracy if you play the same game on an emulator.
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post #11 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 09:49 PM
 
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Whether you think it's piracy, or whether it is piracy are two entirely different things. Even mhufnagel is wrong with his disc statement, as in order to use your legally purchased disc with an emulator, you need to bypass copy protection. This is of course strictly prohibited in the DMCA and in the equivalent legal documents found in the vast majority of western civilization.

In short, if you are going to be a pirate, then at least own up to it and be honest. Don't try to rationalize it away with some half-assed, played out, "I'm not really pirating" argument.
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post #12 of 39 Old 07-16-2010, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Whether you think it's piracy, or whether it is piracy are two entirely different things. Even mhufnagel is wrong with his disc statement, as in order to use your legally purchased disc with an emulator, you need to bypass copy protection. This is of course strictly prohibited in the DMCA and in the equivalent legal documents found in the vast majority of western civilization.

In short, if you are going to be a pirate, then at least own up to it and be honest. Don't try to rationalize it away with some half-assed, played out, "I'm not really pirating" argument.

I blame the parents.

Wait, no. Maybe. Ok, yes.



totally hijacked the thread here...
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post #13 of 39 Old 07-17-2010, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Even mhufnagel is wrong with his disc statement, as in order to use your legally purchased disc with an emulator, you need to bypass copy protection.

I think he is talking about PC emulators that let you play your disc directly from your CD-Rom/DVD drive.
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post #14 of 39 Old 07-17-2010, 02:53 AM
 
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Yes, he is. And unless he is talking about 3DO or Saturn discs, then he is talking about discs with copy protection on them. The emulator therefore needs to circumvent the protection on the fly. Bam. Pirate.
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post #15 of 39 Old 07-17-2010, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Yes, he is. And unless he is talking about 3DO or Saturn discs, then he is talking about discs with copy protection on them. The emulator therefore needs to circumvent the protection on the fly. Bam. Pirate.

Then how was Bleemcast legal? They won in court and only closed shop because the legal fees drove them under.

I don't see why copy protection has to be circumvented just to read a disc.
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post #16 of 39 Old 07-17-2010, 04:27 AM
 
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"Then how was Bleemcast legal?"

You are confusing a company's legal rights to market and sell a piece of software with an end user's legal liabilities in running said software. You may as well be asking me why Ford can legally sell a car that can go 130 MPH in a country that has no roads that allow over 80 MPH.

Additionally, "not losing" in court is not the same thing as "winning".

"I don't see why copy protection has to be circumvented just to read a disc."

If the disc has any form of copy protection on it, as any console disc PSX or newer has, then the emulator needs to know how to work with or around that copy protection. Given that the console manufacture didn't hand the DRM specs to the emulator developers, said copy protection therefore needs to be reverse engineered and by-passed. The effect is very simple; the user uses a piece of software to by-pass copy protection, in direct violation of EU and NA laws, and then makes a copy of that software in ram, in whole or in part. By-passing copy protection to make a duplicate of software. It's a picture-perfect definition of piracy.

To be clear, I do not care if one pirates something. My issue is with the tired rationalizations and half-truths intended to deflect responsibility for one's actions.
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post #17 of 39 Old 07-18-2010, 01:23 AM
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I sent you a PM, my reply was a bit too long for something that is off topic to the original thread.
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post #18 of 39 Old 07-19-2010, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

I sent you a PM, my reply was a bit too long for something that is off topic to the original thread.

Thanks but I don't have a PM from you...

I did consider using a PC and emulation (especially since I have an HTPC) except BSNES and ZSNES both gave me unfavorable results. For one, BSNES would not do full screen no matter how much I tried. ZSNES did full screen, but it has its own GUI and didn't let me alter the image at all. This was a problem because everything was a little "off" no matter how many different resolutions I tried in the program (even custom ones).

I bought an RGB SCART adapter on eBay and a SCART to component transcoder. I'll let you all know how it goes!
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post #19 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
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So far, horribly! I ordered 3 different SCART cables for the SNES just to be safe, got one today and the transcoder. Picture quality is horrendous. Ugly interlacing all over the place, a green line all the way down the middle of the screen (vertical) and when I plug it into my DVDO Edge rather than right into my TV, I get no picture at all. Here's to hoping it's the SCART cable and the next one or two I get work!
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post #20 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 07:41 AM
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Thanks but I don't have a PM from you...

Because it wasn't to you, it was about emulators for cd/dvd based consoles that allow the use of original disc in the conversation I was having with Darklordjames.

That's why I took it to PM since it wasn't relevant to your topic.
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post #21 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

Because it wasn't to you, it was about emulators for cd/dvd based consoles that allow the use of original disc in the conversation I was having with Darklordjames.

That's why I took it to PM since it wasn't relevant to your topic.

Sorry about that, misread your post.

If anyone can shed some light as to why I am getting such a bizarre picture from my SNES I'd appreciate it!
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post #22 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 12:32 PM
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No combination of hardware is ever going to give you results that will come anywhere close to the picture quality you get from an emulator. Even if we theoretically pretend you can output a pixel perfect 240p image to your hardware scaler, the scaler is not designed to upscale video game content. It is going to be optimized towards tv/movie content and is not going care about retaining the pixel per pixel data of an oldschool video game.

The way you described your experience with emulators I am guessing you missed the best feature for displaying on an HDTV. Leave your resolution @ 1080p to avoid any extra scaling and then use the 4xHQ filters (it's called something like that). I believe this option is available in Snes9x... maybe ZSnes, can't remember. Basically this is a method of scaling designed specifically for old video game content. It quadruples the pixels to 1280x960 and then does some AA around the pixel edges to reduce the "blockiness" of the image.

I do however realize that some people are simply die hard purists, but really, if you're going to be a purist you should be playing nes/snes on a CRT. There is just no way you'll ever get really satisfactory results in HD.

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post #23 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 01:29 PM
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The way you described your experience with emulators I am guessing you missed the best feature for displaying on an HDTV. Leave your resolution @ 1080p to avoid any extra scaling and then use the 4xHQ filters (it's called something like that). I believe this option is available in Snes9x... maybe ZSnes, can't remember. Basically this is a method of scaling designed specifically for old video game content. It quadruples the pixels to 1280x960 and then does some AA around the pixel edges to reduce the "blockiness" of the image.

I do however realize that some people are simply die hard purists, but really, if you're going to be a purist you should be playing nes/snes on a CRT. There is just no way you'll ever get really satisfactory results in HD.

Those filters are awful. They muddle detail from the images. The blockiness is part of the game, the art was drawn with the blockiness in mind, and any attempt to run them in HD ruins that IMO. The simple truth is that these games were not designed for today's technology and it shows.

You're correct on the last point though. I do think the best way to play these games is in RGB or whatever... on a CRT. I'm not that hardcore though.
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post #24 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Those filters are awful. They muddle detail from the images. The blockiness is part of the game, the art was drawn with the blockiness in mind, and any attempt to run them in HD ruins that IMO. The simple truth is that these games were not designed for today's technology and it shows.

If you feel the "HQ" filters soften the image too much then there are also straight up 3x / 4x filters that simply triple or quadruple the pixels with no post processing. I guess that is probably the closest you can really expect to come to getting a "CRT like" image on an HDTV.

My point to the OP was that his lackluster experience was more likely the result of trying to send 640x480 and whatever other resolutions to his TV from the emulator.

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post #25 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I did explain I tried every resolution (even custom ones) and was not happy with the way it looked through emulation. I appreciate the help, but I'm going the route of real hardware.

So I'm at the point where I bought a SCART cable for the SNES, and the transcoder. On my TV, the picture is heavily interlaced, shaky, and has an ugly line going through it. Through my DVDO Edge upscaler, I get no picture at all (though the upscaler does detect something). Please help.
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post #26 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 09:46 PM
 
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You could try out SCART to composite and SCART to s-video cables to see if the signal that you are receiving is actually RGB. The key would be that you'd buy these cables with the goal of not getting a signal.

As I mentioned earlier, the SNES doesn't spit out 480i, but instead provides 240p. Both of your scalers in question are probably choking on this, as they likely don't expect to ever see 240p over RGB. For example, the scalers in my first plasma would accept 240p over composite from my NES just fine. It was treated as 480i with the end result looking very line-doubled, but it was playable and acceptable. 240p from the PS2 over component (Ico) caused the display to choke, providing an unplayable image.

What transcoder did you end up getting? SCART RGB to HDMI?
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post #27 of 39 Old 07-20-2010, 09:48 PM
 
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Reading what I wrote earlier, I also see this:

"You may also need to modify the SCART cable with some resistors to get luma in to spec, as the NTSC version of the console looks to lack those parts on board."

If luma is way out of whack, that also may cause the transoders to fail.
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post #28 of 39 Old 07-21-2010, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

You could try out SCART to composite and SCART to s-video cables to see if the signal that you are receiving is actually RGB. The key would be that you'd buy these cables with the goal of not getting a signal.

As I mentioned earlier, the SNES doesn't spit out 480i, but instead provides 240p. Both of your scalers in question are probably choking on this, as they likely don't expect to ever see 240p over RGB. For example, the scalers in my first plasma would accept 240p over composite from my NES just fine. It was treated as 480i with the end result looking very line-doubled, but it was playable and acceptable. 240p from the PS2 over component (Ico) caused the display to choke, providing an unplayable image.

What transcoder did you end up getting? SCART RGB to HDMI?

I went with SCART RGB to YUV component since that seemed to give people the best success.
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post #29 of 39 Old 07-21-2010, 03:23 AM
 
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Well there's a question. Does your display actually accept YUV over component, and not just YPbPr? Also, is there a setting in your display's menu to change the component input from expecting YPbPr to YUV? For analog component on modern displays YPbPr is the default format that you will find everywhere, with YUV being a variant with far less support. I know my last Akai/LG plasma would allow switching between the two formats, but I'm fairly sure that my current Panasonic only allows YPbPr.
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post #30 of 39 Old 07-21-2010, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"I don't see why copy protection has to be circumvented just to read a disc."

If the disc has any form of copy protection on it, as any console disc PSX or newer has, then the emulator needs to know how to work with or around that copy protection. Given that the console manufacture didn't hand the DRM specs to the emulator developers, said copy protection therefore needs to be reverse engineered and by-passed. The effect is very simple; the user uses a piece of software to by-pass copy protection, in direct violation of EU and NA laws, and then makes a copy of that software in ram, in whole or in part. By-passing copy protection to make a duplicate of software. It's a picture-perfect definition of piracy.

Like was said, Bleemcast did all of that and was found to be legal. But that was before the draconian DRM laws that been passed since then.

If by copy protection you mean the console bios, then yes, you are right about having legal problems because of copyrights. If that is the case, then Saturn discs are copy protected also. I require the correct bios to play Saturn games on SFF. But no bios are required to play Sega CD or TG-16 CD games via emulators.
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