What is the best TV for the Wii? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 11-11-2010, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I want to buy a new television in order to put a Wii in my room. I would have chosen a CRT if they were still made, considering the Wii's low resolution.

But it appears I'm being forced to choose between Plasma and LCD, neither of which are optimal for gaming.

I don't necessarily want a large screen, and would prefer something between 20 - 40 inches.

So, what television should I use for the Wii, if I want the highest gaming quality possible with one of these technologies?
athenian200 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 11-12-2010, 06:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oktoberrust11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 3,059
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

I want to buy a new television in order to put a Wii in my room. I would have chosen a CRT if they were still made, considering the Wii's low resolution.

But it appears I'm being forced to choose between Plasma and LCD, neither of which are optimal for gaming.

I don't necessarily want a large screen, and would prefer something between 20 - 40 inches.

So, what television should I use for the Wii, if I want the highest gaming quality possible with one of these technologies?

Actually, current LCD's/LED's/plasma's are great for gaming.

So many choices....what's your budget. And do you really want a 20" set or a 40" set? Big difference.

Xbox Live:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 | Mii: 5207 2388 9861 4135 | Steam ID:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
| Origin ID: oktoberrust11

oktoberrust11 is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old 11-12-2010, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by oktoberrust11 View Post

Actually, current LCD's/LED's/plasma's are great for gaming.

I'm sure they would work well with the PS3 and Xbox, which are designed to output a 1080 signal, and possibly even a digital signal. It's the Wii that I'm concerned about, because it only outputs 480p with component, which is analog and requires conversion/scaling.

I'm very worried about input lag, in particular.
Quote:


So many choices....what's your budget. And do you really want a 20" set or a 40" set? Big difference.

Well, I actually wanted a 32" set, but I'm willing to take a larger or smaller one if it proves to be better for gaming.

My budget? Ideally, I want a TV that's under $1000, but I can go up to $1500 if there are no good options in that range.

That's one reason why I miss CRT... you could get a fairly cheap one (under $500) without having to worry about input lag, burn-in, 120/240Hz, and all that other stuff that's spinning around in my head now.
athenian200 is offline  
post #4 of 18 Old 11-12-2010, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Personallly I'd aim for a 32" Full Screen CRT....I'm sure you can find the used, a Sony Wega would be your best bet and I wouldn't go any lower than 32" as it's the perfect size if you ask me for Wii games. I tried playing my Wii on my brothers 27" Full Screen CRT and it hampered the experience and the visuals werent as pleasing to the eye.

Anyways, if you must get an HDTV....I'd say pass on LCD and go for Plasma. a 42" Plasma(or a 40" LCD) would be great size wise, as it also matches a fullscreen 32" CRT set from top to bottom if we're talking a 40" HDTV, a 42" plasma would be slightly bigger. And as always, with any HDTV the benefits here would be ProgressiveScan and Widescreen. The downside is that the motion will be a bit inferior to CRT(LCD is even worse), there will be some minor lag, you'll get an upscaled(jaggy,depending) image and some slight green trailing IF you look for it, or if it's even noticable.

And I'd recomend getting a 1024x768 Plasma instead of 1080p for your Wii, the less scaling the better regarding PQ and lag. If I were you I'd check out this Samsung.......

Samsung PN42C430 42" 720p Plamsa

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung+...&skuId=9791253

But with a CRT, you get perfect motion, fantastic color and black levels, zero lag and no upscaled image. You just miss out on the widescreen and progressivescan. Yet some 32" CRT's do infact have progressive scan. Amazon.com has some Sony 32" CRT's for sale if you're interested.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 11-13-2010, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have to say, I'm very upset, but it looks like I was correct.

I really am expected to shell out more money for a television that won't even display my Wii correctly. The only question is how much the new televisions will mess it up. That's what I'm being asked to spend a thousand dollars on... a TV that's ALMOST as good as a CRT, but which will always have issues.

I can't believe that the television manufactures have the audacity to expect me to be satisfied with the lower quality, just because the people who watch movies are oblivious.

All the CRTs available now are used, and unfortunately... all the sellers have this ignorant rule about "local pick-up only," which I can't work with. I mean, that's ridiculous. If I want to spend $200 on shipping or something, they should let me. They shouldn't even be allowed to list it if they're too lazy to ship it.

If I get a new TV, I'm probably going to end up with Plasma... LCD has too many unacceptable tradeoffs. Plasma sounds tolerable, even though it will force me to get a larger screen than I think is wise for my room, and still won't be quite as good as a CRT.

I feel as though I've been cheated very badly by the market. Televisions that play the Wii well are no longer made, no one will ship me a used one, and no one seems to care about quality anymore.

Thank you all for your help, this isn't your fault. I'm really upset with the television manufacturers, and the people who sell used TVs.

I'm either going to find a used CRT, or get the best Plasma I can buy.
athenian200 is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 11-14-2010, 07:46 PM
Member
 
Gooseboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Samsungs have the worst lag. You'll probably want to go with a newer Panasonic plasma. If fast scaling is really important to you, then you'll want to buy this:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/dvdo_edge/

It'll even make classic game systems playable on your HDTV.
Gooseboy is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 07:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mhufnagel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 91
I would go on craigslist and look for a newer model 32" crt. As a matter of fact, I did do that to play my Gamecube and PS2 using component cables! The last models had component inputs and they also have ATSC tuners built-in. While not 480p, the picture will be very nice with excellent color.

I just can't stand sd on a non-crt tv. It just doesn't look quite right. Even at 480p, the Gamecube and PS2 didn't look right to me on either a 37" lcd or a 46" lcd projection.

And if you feel cheated. Then you were cheated by Nintendo. They came out with a 480p console at the same time sd sets were being discontinued. Also, why can't you do local pick-up? Do you live in a rural area that is far away from where the sets are being sold?
mhufnagel is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jwebb1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Visalia, CA
Posts: 8,339
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
My main display is a CRT RPTV (Hitachi) from 2007 - last year Hitachi made CRT based RPTVs. Has been calibrated & had it's factory overscan dialed down quite a bit. Wii, IMO, looks just fine on that set via component cables.

My bro-in-law runs a Wii on a 720p Sony Bravia LCD via component - despite Wii's inherent "jaggy-ness", it looks fine otherwise & appears to have no noticable lag.

Another relative runs a Wii on a newer Panny 1080p plasma via component - as with the above mentioned Sony, jaggies aside, it works great.

Money does not buy happiness. It can, however, buy you a giant boat that you can pull up alongside happiness. - David Lee Roth

jwebb1970 is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooseboy View Post

Samsungs have the worst lag. You'll probably want to go with a newer Panasonic plasma. If fast scaling is really important to you, then you'll want to buy this:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/dvdo_edge/

It'll even make classic game systems playable on your HDTV.

That looks very interesting.

I may end up using that, because it appears that I may end up with a Plasma. I couldn't find a used CRT with the features I wanted.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

I would go on craigslist and look for a newer model 32" crt. As a matter of fact, I did do that to play my Gamecube and PS2 using component cables! The last models had component inputs and they also have ATSC tuners built-in. While not 480p, the picture will be very nice with excellent color.

I seem to be finding mostly old CRTs that aren't widescreen, which is rather disappointing.

Quote:


And if you feel cheated. Then you were cheated by Nintendo. They came out with a 480p console at the same time sd sets were being discontinued. Also, why can't you do local pick-up? Do you live in a rural area that is far away from where the sets are being sold?

480p WAS fairly current at the time the consoles were released. It was labeled as EDTV... but it didn't last long. It's really the fault of the TV manufacturers... they maintain the same standards for 20 years, and then all of a sudden start changing the resolution every 4 years.

I can't do local pick-up for several reasons. One, I don't own a vehicle that can transport a television of that size. Second, all the CRT TVs I can find that I'm interested in, are being sold in other states. I live in a somewhat suburban area, but not really rural.

1080p will probably look like garbage on TVs made in a few years, when they come out with televisions that have 2160p as their native resolution or something. They're making it increasingly difficult to watch anything other than the newest movies at high visual quality.

They really need to work on their legacy support. It's awful right now. There has to be a better way to process those analog signals, or at least a suitable alternative to a a fixed-pixel display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

My main display is a CRT RPTV (Hitachi) from 2007 - last year Hitachi made CRT based RPTVs. Has been calibrated & had it's factory overscan dialed down quite a bit. Wii, IMO, looks just fine on that set via component cables.

You're really lucky, then. I bet it looks great.
Quote:


My bro-in-law runs a Wii on a 720p Sony Bravia LCD via component - despite Wii's inherent "jaggy-ness", it looks fine otherwise & appears to have no noticable lag.

Another relative runs a Wii on a newer Panny 1080p plasma via component - as with the above mentioned Sony, jaggies aside, it works great.

I think I'm probably going to use a relatively new plasma, and try to get that DVDO box that was discussed earlier. I hope that enhanced video processing can solve most of my problems.

If the visual quality is too poor, I suppose I can always settle for hooking up the Wii to an old 480i set that I have lying around. The Wii has widescreen and progressive scan, but at a resolution that makes it work poorly with TVs likely to have those features. It seems like no televisions were ever created to display 480p optimally.
athenian200 is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mhufnagel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,037
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post



I seem to be finding mostly old CRTs that aren't widescreen, which is rather disappointing.

I bought a 32" 4:3 crt. The widescreen models are either 30" or 34" tubes and were mostly hd models.

Quote:


480p WAS fairly current at the time the consoles were released. It was labeled as EDTV... but it didn't last long. It's really the fault of the TV manufacturers... they maintain the same standards for 20 years, and then all of a sudden start changing the resolution every 4 years.

The only EDTV's I remember being sold in 2005/2006 were 42" plasmas. They were as expensive as 720p models. I don't know anyone who bought one of those. The only crt models I remember with 480p were also hdtv's or hd monitors that did 1080i. I remember this because I bought my first hdtv in 2006 and looked at quite a few models before I bought it. EDTV's were disappearing before the Xbox 360 came out (a full year before the Wii). As smart as Nintendo is, I doubt they built the Wii with edtv's in mind.
mhufnagel is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

I bought a 32" 4:3 crt. The widescreen models are either 30" or 34" tubes and were mostly hd models.

4:3 really doesn't sound optimal if the Wii can output 16:9.

Still, even if they're HD, CRTs don't have the same scaling issues as LCDs and Plasmas, because they don't really have a native resolution.

Quote:


The only EDTV's I remember being sold in 2005/2006 were 42" plasmas. They were as expensive as 720p models. I don't know anyone who bought one of those. The only crt models I remember with 480p were also hdtv's or hd monitors that did 1080i. I remember this because I bought my first hdtv in 2006 and looked at quite a few models before I bought it. EDTV's were disappearing before the Xbox 360 came out (a full year before the Wii). As smart as Nintendo is, I doubt they built the Wii with edtv's in mind.

Perhaps not, but I think the fact remains that due to the nature of fixed pixel displays, you can only get the best image if the resolution of input matches the native resolution of the display. Whether or not it was their intention, I now believe that the Wii should look it's best on a small plasma with a 480p native resolution, and will appear degraded on anything else, with the possible exception of a CRT.

Therefore... I've done some searching, and found that a very unusual TV exists somewhere. It's an LG 32" 32PC5DVC Plasma EDTV. It's a smaller TV, which will make the graphical flaws less obvious, it's Plasma which means it won't have the lag issues of an LCD, and finally... it has a native resolution that matches that of the Wii.

What's unusual about it, is that it was apparently manufactured specifically for hotels wanting to replace CRTs, and wasn't sold to the general public.

That should eliminate 90% of the problems, according to my calculations. Now, if only the Wii could output a digital signal instead of an analog one... it would be perfect.

Thank you all for your help.
athenian200 is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 04:58 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
"it's Plasma which means it won't have the lag issues of an LCD"

No.

Lag on HD panels does not really come down to display type, but is far more reliant on the scaling and image processing chipsets in play. Once you get passed the image processing, between LCD and plasma there really isn't a speed difference. In the case of LCD, you have a bit of motion blur from waiting for the cells to change to the new required color, while in plasma you have a bit of motion blur from waiting for the recently lit cells to decay in their light production. The end result is very similar in regards to speed, lag and motion blur.

While I can understand your ideal of wanting a 480p display to run your 480p console, the real world would like to argue with that a bit. In reality, 480p to 768p/1080p scaling at this point is "good enough", roughly matching what you would get out of a native 480p display. Taking a 480p plasma versus a 1080p plasma and displaying 480p Wii on it, you'll end up with an image that trades off the error of sharp lines at rendered edges being far too blocky due to lack of pixels for the error of sharp lines at rendered edges being a bit blurry due to the scaling. On the plus side though, the black levels on the HD plasma panels are likely to be far nicer than on ED plasma panel, especially if we are talking about buying a current HD model versus a 2006 ED model.

Moving over to a CRT? CRT geometry is crap. If a square doesn't display as a square, then why the hell would you buy the display technology?

End of the day? A good, modern HD plasma or HD LCD will give you a better picture than the best ED plasma or 480i CRT, even on 480p console material.
darklordjames is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"it's Plasma which means it won't have the lag issues of an LCD"

No.

Lag on HD panels does not really come down to display type, but is far more reliant on the scaling and image processing chipsets in play. Once you get passed the image processing, between LCD and plasma there really isn't a speed difference. In the case of LCD, you have a bit of motion blur from waiting for the cells to change to the new required color, while in plasma you have a bit of motion blur from waiting for the recently lit cells to decay in their light production. The end result is very similar in regards to speed, lag and motion blur.

While I can understand your ideal of wanting a 480p display to run your 480p console, the real world would like to argue with that a bit. In reality, 480p to 768p/1080p scaling at this point is "good enough", roughly matching what you would get out of a native 480p display. Taking a 480p plasma versus a 1080p plasma and displaying 480p Wii on it, you'll end up with an image that trades off the error of sharp lines at rendered edges being far too blocky due to lack of pixels for the error of sharp lines at rendered edges being a bit blurry due to the scaling. On the plus side though, the black levels on the HD plasma panels are likely to be far nicer than on ED plasma panel, especially if we are talking about buying a current HD model versus a 2006 ED model.

Moving over to a CRT? CRT geometry is crap. If a square doesn't display as a square, then why the hell would you buy the display technology?

End of the day? A good, modern HD plasma or HD LCD will give you a better picture than the best ED plasma or 480i CRT, even on 480p console material.

That sounds incredibly depressing.

Are you saying that there's absolutely nothing I can do to get a better quality image out of my Wii, and that I'm stuck with the crappy scaled images and resultant lag? Because the best thing out there is that default solution that's supposed to work for everyone, but which isn't at all optimal for anything except the latest movies?

It sounds like every possible solution has its own disadvantages, to the point that any conceivable cure is worse than the problem.

Darn it, why can't they give us a TV technology that doesn't have so much lag and scaling issues?

But let me see if I understand this... if a hypothetical, modern, small Plasma were created at 480p, it would have considerably less lag than a 1080p or 720p due to not having to scale the image... correct?

My biggest concern is getting rid of input lag, yet still being able to use progressive scan and widescreen. Jagged lines on the edges of polygons are something I can live with... after all, I grew up on the N64.

And out of curiosity... does the amount of scaling really make a difference? Is a 720p really better than a 1080p? If so, then it seems logical to think that 480p would be even better, right?

Anyway, I wish there were a mode on TVs that just allocated the required resolution leaving the rest of the display blank, even on widescreen and progressive scan, rather than scaling it to fill the TV. I would settle for that, if I could just get rid of the darn lag...

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I see no way to be satisfied with the sloppy solutions for processing lower resolution content that we've been handed by television manufacturers.

I'm getting so frustrated with low quality...

Maybe I'll try to figure out which display has the best scaling technology, regardless of whether it's the best TV for HD. Looks like I've got a LOT of research ahead of me.
athenian200 is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 06:05 PM
 
darklordjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 93
"But let me see if I understand this... if a hypothetical, modern, small Plasma were created at 480p, it would have considerably less lag than a 1080p or 720p due to not having to scale the image... correct?"

Most likely not. The Wii spits out 480p, which is called 480p and not 720x480 for a reason, as the horizontal is effectively infinite in resolution, being an analog signal. While the Wii is rendering a roughly 640x480 image, a widescreen ED display has a resolution of ~848x480. So 480p out of the Wii is still scaled to fit the display on the horizontal, and that isn't even considering the likely overscan correction that will take place resulting in probably the middle 640x448 of the ~720x480 image being scaled up to 848x480. No matter what, that 480p will be scaled, it's just a matter of by how much.

"My biggest concern is getting rid of input lag, yet still being able to use progressive scan and widescreen."

For reference, both my 2008 50" Panasonic plasma and 2009 32" Panasonic LCD test out with the Rock Band 2 auto-calibrating guitar at 32ms of lag, or roughly two frames. Given that 16ms lag is an absolute must seeing as that the length of a frame, my displays lag by a single addition frame. It is unnoticeable in even the most dire of time-sensitive situations.

"And out of curiosity... does the amount of scaling really make a difference? Is a 720p really better than a 1080p? If so, then it seems logical to think that 480p would be even better, right?"

Nope. Once the display has made the decision to scale something, the resolutions in play don't really matter. The physical act of calculating the stretch from 720p to 1080p, or 1080p to 768p, or 480p to 1080p, or 480p to 768p are all extremely fast. Stretching an image is not computationally intensive. Exaggerated lag usually comes from other sources, such as taking 16ms to capture an entire frame's worth of information to work with, and comparing frames to the previous and next one in order to do any sort of temporal filtering.

My advice? Pick a size that you want. Look for a display with good black levels. On plasmas that means looking for black that looks black, not grey. On LCDs that means looking for black that doesn't look dark neon-blue. Then pack up your Wii, Rock Band 2, and the official Rock Band 2 Wireless Guitar and go down to a store to start testing for lag on the displays that you like. I'd start with the current Panasonics and Samsungs. Samsung still has a reputation for being laggy, but is merely a hold-over from ~2006. Modern LCD/plasmas really are better displays than any CRT or ED plasma ever made, even for 480p rendered content. There is just a serious case of people looking back with rose tinted glasses at how great they remember their CRTs being.
darklordjames is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 11-15-2010, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Most likely not. The Wii spits out 480p, which is called 480p and not 720x480 for a reason, as the horizontal is effectively infinite in resolution, being an analog signal. While the Wii is rendering a roughly 640x480 image, a widescreen ED display has a resolution of ~848x480. So 480p out of the Wii is still scaled to fit the display on the horizontal, and that isn't even considering the likely overscan correction that will take place resulting in probably the middle 640x448 of the ~720x480 image being scaled up to 848x480. No matter what, that 480p will be scaled, it's just a matter of by how much.

That's very interesting. I had assumed that it wouldn't be scaled if it matched, but I guess that only applies if the source is digital.

The Wii actually renders at something like 640x480? Ha, I remember that back in 1994, I spent days configuring Windows 3.11 to display at 800x600 with 256 colors, rather than 640x480 with 16 colors, which was the default.
Quote:



For reference, both my 2008 50" Panasonic plasma and 2009 32" Panasonic LCD test out with the Rock Band 2 auto-calibrating guitar at 32ms of lag, or roughly two frames. Given that 16ms lag is an absolute must seeing as that the length of a frame, my displays lag by a single addition frame. It is unnoticeable in even the most dire of time-sensitive situations.

Hmm... so, if I can find a TV with a scaler that allows it to perform at 32ms or better, it's good enough. I'll keep that in mind. I've been told before that anything over 8ms is horrible.
Quote:


Nope. Once the display has made the decision to scale something, the resolutions in play don't really matter. The physical act of calculating the stretch from 720p to 1080p, or 1080p to 768p, or 480p to 1080p, or 480p to 768p are all extremely fast. Stretching an image is not computationally intensive. Exaggerated lag usually comes from other sources, such as taking 16ms to capture an entire frame's worth of information to work with, and comparing frames to the previous and next one in order to do any sort of temporal filtering.

That actually makes sense. When I try to scale an image in GIMP on my computer... how much I scale it doesn't seem to make a difference in processing time, as long as I have enough memory to hold an image of the size specified. Image quality pretty much remains consistent as long as the aspect ratio is maintained, and especially if it's an even multiple of the original size. It might look blocky if I increase the size too much, but that's just because you can see each individual pixel. And that disappears with distance.

Quote:


My advice? Pick a size that you want. Look for a display with good black levels. On plasmas that means looking for black that looks black, not grey. On LCDs that means looking for black that doesn't look dark neon-blue. Then pack up your Wii, Rock Band 2, and the official Rock Band 2 Wireless Guitar and go down to a store to start testing for lag on the displays that you like. I'd start with the current Panasonics and Samsungs. Samsung still has a reputation for being laggy, but is merely a hold-over from ~2006. Modern LCD/plasmas really are better displays than any CRT or ED plasma ever made, even for 480p rendered content. There is just a serious case of people looking back with rose tinted glasses at how great they remember their CRTs being.

Okay, okay... I'm thinking you might be right.

I've been looking at the Wii on some modern LCDs and plasmas... while there doesn't seem to be an appreciable difference in lag, the Plasma seems to have somewhat better color and brightness.

So, now I'm going to focus my question as narrowly as I can. What is the best/fastest scaling technology available on a television today, and how can I get it? Would it be found in a specific model or brand of television?

I would think that with so much 480p and 480i content floating around, there would be a lot of effort by someone, somewhere into making that content look as good as possible on HDTVs. I have to be honest... even if I view anything other than a Wii, I'm likely to be stuck using a lot of 480p devices, if I'm lucky enough not to get stuck with 480i. That's why I'm so focused on this. Most of the movies I like, and output devices I want to use, can't handle HD resolutions.
athenian200 is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 11-16-2010, 10:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ice Cold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

That sounds incredibly depressing.

Are you saying that there's absolutely nothing I can do to get a better quality image out of my Wii, and that I'm stuck with the crappy scaled images and resultant lag? Because the best thing out there is that default solution that's supposed to work for everyone, but which isn't at all optimal for anything except the latest movies?

It sounds like every possible solution has its own disadvantages, to the point that any conceivable cure is worse than the problem.

Darn it, why can't they give us a TV technology that doesn't have so much lag and scaling issues?

But let me see if I understand this... if a hypothetical, modern, small Plasma were created at 480p, it would have considerably less lag than a 1080p or 720p due to not having to scale the image... correct?

My biggest concern is getting rid of input lag, yet still being able to use progressive scan and widescreen. Jagged lines on the edges of polygons are something I can live with... after all, I grew up on the N64.

And out of curiosity... does the amount of scaling really make a difference? Is a 720p really better than a 1080p? If so, then it seems logical to think that 480p would be even better, right?

Anyway, I wish there were a mode on TVs that just allocated the required resolution leaving the rest of the display blank, even on widescreen and progressive scan, rather than scaling it to fill the TV. I would settle for that, if I could just get rid of the darn lag...

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I see no way to be satisfied with the sloppy solutions for processing lower resolution content that we've been handed by television manufacturers.

I'm getting so frustrated with low quality...

Maybe I'll try to figure out which display has the best scaling technology, regardless of whether it's the best TV for HD. Looks like I've got a LOT of research ahead of me.

Mt Panasonic TC-L32S1 has been tested and rated on these very forums by Pro gamers and tester here to have NO INPUT LAG.

I am also a bit of a perfectionist and I do not like to compromise.

Thankfully I have NO LAG. I was playing New Super Mario All day today and even though the TV chip has to process 480p to 1080p theres no lag that I can detect and I am sensitive enough to know it.

Only problem I am running into is less than stellar PQ picture quality which I am blaming on cheaply made Component cables.

Of course the BEST TV for the NIntendo Wii is a HD CRT. But very few of those were made, just as the CRT era died.
Ice Cold is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 11-17-2010, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
athenian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post

Mt Panasonic TC-L32S1 has been tested and rated on these very forums by Pro gamers and tester here to have NO INPUT LAG.

I am also a bit of a perfectionist and I do not like to compromise.

Thankfully I have NO LAG. I was playing New Super Mario All day today and even though the TV chip has to process 480p to 1080p theres no lag that I can detect and I am sensitive enough to know it.

Only problem I am running into is less than stellar PQ picture quality which I am blaming on cheaply made Component cables.

Of course the BEST TV for the NIntendo Wii is a HD CRT. But very few of those were made, just as the CRT era died.

Thanks for the recommendation, but the Panasonic you suggested doesn't seem to be available anymore. All the online stores seem to be out of it.

Why is it so hard to find? Is everyone buying up that model so that there's no stock available, or is it just no longer being made?

Anyway, I may not need a new TV. It looks like my father has an unused Plasma TV that was previously hooked up to a Wii that he moved out to a building he owns. It's made by some company I've never heard of called "Pioneer," so I'm not sure if it's any good. It can't be more than a couple of years old, though, and my father claims that Pioneer is second only to Panasonic in quality. I wouldn't know either way, because I've only ever used an LG plasma (42PC3D), and I know it gives me a more watchable picture on cable channels than any LCD I've seen, though not perfect by any means.

In any case, if it turns out to be a good TV, I may not have to buy a new one after all. And if the scaling hardware is bad but the TV is good, I guess I'll just use an external scaler if it supports 1:1 mapping from the scaler. If it has poor quality scaling and doesn't support an external one properly, I may still need a new one.
athenian200 is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 11-17-2010, 06:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
Mr. Audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Hey man I wanna let you know I feel your pain. Even though I am not yet in the market for a new TV as I do have the ideal TV for SD and HD which is a Sony XBR970. However knowing that my TV may not last forever, I am worried about what I'm going to do when that horrible day comes that my CRT bites the dust. I have thought this over and over again on what I would do in your situation and here is what I have for you.

I run NES, SNES, N64, Wii PS1, PS2, XBOX, Saturn through one TV with SNES and N64 running through s-video which is even scarier since s-video is just about gone on all modern TVs. So I want all my SD to look great and more importantly have no lag.

The first thing is not to get a screen that is too big for SD viewing. It sounds like you kinda got a handle on all that since you want between a 20-40 inch display. Many people don't realize that their HDTV is much bigger than their previous one and are repulsed at all the jaggies that SD graphics inherently have even with perfect processing. Hence the reason HD was invented in the first place.

Secondly you need to know that modern TVs are many times sharper than any CRT TV ever could hope to be. I brought my Wii over to a friend's house who has a 50 inch 720p Sammy. I discovered that the default sharpness level on the component input was way too sharp and brought it from like 60 to 10 and it was still extremely sharp, but made the Wii look nice. CRT TVs naturally are much smoother, and that's the reason why CRT HDTVs suck as computer monitors.

Third, when you're shopping for your TV, buy at a place that has a good return policy. Depending on how much luck you have getting someone to let you hook and play something to perhaps multiple TVs, you may just have to buy and return a few TVs. I've searched, and there really is not that many resources to find which TVs lag the least on SD (surprisingly). Have no shame though in returning. Manufacturers and retailers have not taken people like us into consideration who are not ready to switch everything we hook to TVs to HD. It's a shame that there is no for sure way to tell if a TV is right for what you wanna do with it without just trying it all out for yourself.

One possibility I have looked at which still doesn't look like a bad idea is to get an external video scaler. http://shoryuken.com/f177/hdtvs-vide...olution-94426/ This is a link to another forum thread that is dedicated to discussing lag. It has some links to some external devices that you can hook between your SD components and your HDTV to pre-scale the image to HD quickly so all the TV has to do is display the picture with very minimal processing. It seems that such devices range from 50 to 500 bucks, but in the end I think it would be worth not having to think about if my TV was capable of not lagging.

For sure the fight is not fair. Even HD consoles are having problems because many games run in 720p and need to be upscaled to 1080p which can introduce significant lag. I think Plasma TVs got sort of the reputation for having little to no lag because Plasma TVs are still offered in 720p in large sizes as where every LCD above 32 inches is 1080p. However when it comes to SD, upscaling from even 480p vs. 480i to 720p can cause big lag.

Bottom line is there is no reference. There are TVs out there for you and I but nobody can tell us which ones they are, and the people who can tell us won't tell us. Good luck on your search. Like I said it's out there, you just have to find it. Now find your TV and have absolutely no mercy and make no compromises.

One last thing. Who the F has never heard of Pioneer? Apparently you lol. Pioneer has been around for decades. They make low to high end consumer electronics including TVs and audio equipment.

Your system can shine no matter what it's made of.......except if it's Bose.
Mr. Audio is offline  
Reply Nintendo

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off