Nintendo announces 25.5 billion yen loss - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 07-28-2011, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1184696p1.html

Doesn't give much detail but can't say that this is all that surprising.

I really feel that this is proof of a company that has lost it's way. While the wii has been a success, it was hardly "future proof"-- the lack of HD capabilities and Mickey mouse online/social platform doomed it's longevity right out of the gate. Add to this a mountain of shovelware and overall lack of killer apps for the gamer crowd and you have the exact thing nintendo was trying to avoid when it entered the market after atari made those EXACT SAME MISTAKES! I mean, we're just NOW getting a new Zelda (one of the N's bread-and-butter franchises) after the new system has already been teased... Bets on skyward sword being delayed to help launch wii U?

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post #2 of 26 Old 07-29-2011, 02:14 AM
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Drop in the bucket for them. Nintendo will be just fine. Do you realize how much money they made off of Wii and DS? They killed the Wii when announcing WiiU. They released all the big guns last year. Worst case. Zelda gets delayed to boost sales for WiiU. I don't see it happening though. Zelda fans would be super pissed. Including myself.
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post #3 of 26 Old 07-29-2011, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1184696p1.html

Doesn't give much detail but can't say that this is all that surprising.

I really feel that this is proof of a company that has lost it's way. While the wii has been a success, it was hardly "future proof"-- the lack of HD capabilities and Mickey mouse online/social platform doomed it's longevity right out of the gate. Add to this a mountain of shovelware and overall lack of killer apps for the gamer crowd and you have the exact thing nintendo was trying to avoid when it entered the market after atari made those EXACT SAME MISTAKES! I mean, we're just NOW getting a new Zelda (one of the N's bread-and-butter franchises) after the new system has already been teased... Bets on skyward sword being delayed to help launch wii U?

I don't see how the Wii can be blamed for this at all. The Wii is one of the few console systems that was sold at a profit, and it outsold Xbox 360 and PS3 by a wide margin.

I hadn't seen this before, but came across this article, which was dated a year ago today. Reading this article, DS sales are the culprit, which makes sense, since cell phones have become the new gaming platform of today.

And now, according to this article, the 3DS price is dropping to $170! Kind of wish I had waited now, but then again, maybe the 3DS is dying anyway. They really should have at least had one of their major franchises launched with it. And even now, there aren't a lot of games out yet. Will the game studios forge ahead with planned releases? I sure hope so.
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post #4 of 26 Old 07-29-2011, 08:23 AM
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25 billion yen? Isn't that like $100k?
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post #5 of 26 Old 07-29-2011, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kurtiebird View Post


I don't see how the Wii can be blamed for this at all. The Wii is one of the few console systems that was sold at a profit, and it outsold Xbox 360 and PS3 by a wide margin.

I hadn't seen this before, but came across this article, which was dated a year ago today. Reading this article, DS sales are the culprit, which makes sense, since cell phones have become the new gaming platform of today.

And now, according to this article, the 3DS price is dropping to $170! Kind of wish I had waited now, but then again, maybe the 3DS is dying anyway. They really should have at least had one of their major franchises launched with it. And even now, there aren't a lot of games out yet. Will the game studios forge ahead with planned releases? I sure hope so.

Wasn't blaming the wii-- just saying that it hung around for too long and has too many crappy titles diluting its' library.

The wii is an outdated piece of kit. Nintendo scored a bit of the "apple-cool" with the system when it launched but allowed anyone and everyone to flood the market with shovelware-- which drowned the few quality titles available. Nintendo failed, too, in bringing enough of it's own triple AAA titles to the system. The biggest failure may have been their inability to bring a successor to market sooner... forget sony's 10 year console cycle, this Nintendo needed to have a follow up in the pipe and ready to go as the hd consoles were prepping their own wii riffs!

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post #6 of 26 Old 07-29-2011, 07:12 PM
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I agree with what sage11x said that the Wii is a success and Nintendo has lost its way, however, that is the only thing in his post that's correct. Everything he said after that is garbage. My thought on this is that the bigwigs at Nintendo have gotten ARROGANT. How can you launch a $250 hand-held without a Mario or Pokemon game, make it look exactly like the DS (which causes confusion) and expect it to sell gangbusters in the US after a financial crisis? It's called "arrogance" and if they don't humble themselves fast they are going to crash and burn.

Nintendo makes excellent games (best in the world in my opinion) but their game allocation plans make little sense to me.

Why is Luigi's Mansion 2 a 3DS game? This is stupid. That should be a Wii game as the title started on consoles (Gamecube) and that is where the fanbase is.

Where is Yoshi's Island Wii? Where is StarFox Wii? Why is New Super Mario Bros. Mii a Wii U game???????? Tons of people bought NSMBWii and now you are telling them to pony up $299+ to play its sequel? Where are the old games being reborn? Like Startropics? Haven't the success of Donkey Kong Country Returns taught them anything? Why are they publishing Pandora's Tower instead of making F-Zero Wii? I'm sure an easier to play F-Zero Wii would have sold a lot more.

Why did it take five years between console Zeldas? I love Zelda and I'm buying it, but 5 YEARS IS TOO LONG. And all this talk of third party focus for Wii U is making me nervous. People don't buy Nintendo consoles to play Call of Duty so I don't know what Nintendo is smoking.

Nintendo seems to be suffering from Acute Hubris Disease (Sony has Chronic Hubris Disease because they are a too-big-to-fail-piece-of-****). The 3DS not doing very well is a hopeful cure that will make them snap out of it. I have confidence that they will bounce back because their games are just too high quality, but we will see some bumpy roads ahead from them.
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post #7 of 26 Old 07-30-2011, 10:31 AM
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This is what happens when you are successful beyond belief. There is no way it can be sustainable. The more amazing your quarterly profits are, the harder it is to maintain it, and when things start to slip, the year over year decrease appears as if your company is doomed to bankruptcy, when it's just a matter of not being able to sustain that success.

Apple is the only company that I've seen in recent times that has overcome this scenario, although eventually it will happen to them as well. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
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post #8 of 26 Old 07-30-2011, 01:27 PM
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Apple is just way too good to be true. I smell an Enron type fraud when it comes to Apple.
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post #9 of 26 Old 07-30-2011, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Readykilowatt View Post

Apple is just way too good to be true. I smell an Enron type fraud when it comes to Apple.

Apple has actual products that it sells on the open market. People pay money and they get the actual products. Apple designs products for sale and has them produced for the marketplace.

That's not anything like what Enron was doing.

Even Microsoft with all its vaporware over the years never charged consumers and taxpayers two or three times for something that it never delivered or owned.

As for Nintendo, it's getting creamed right now.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/201...D9OP6C800.html

I remember when the Nintendo big shots dismissed Apple's inroads into portable gaming and Nintendo's dissing of mobile gaming generally. They were too full of hubris to see that consumers in a tight economy will buy $0.99 to $9.99 games and use in-app purchases a lot more readily than paying $25-$50 for a single handheld console game. They also missed the clear trend toward mobile development and the creation of hundreds then thousands of games for mobile platforms while they struggled to get out a few games every month. It's an old model run by old thinkers, just like the music business.

That was, as you wrote, a sign of their arrogance, and now it's time to get crushed as the wheel rolls back around.

I love my Wii and will keep using it on a daily basis for the foreseeable future*, but it's clearly been milked for too long and the momentum Nintendo had is expended, wasted in fact, with the lack of vision and comprehension of its corporate keepers.

As long as Wii Fit Plus keeps plugging along I'll use it 30-40 minutes a day. I rarely game on it anymore. I game about 1.5 hours a day on my iPad.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #10 of 26 Old 07-31-2011, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by filecat13

Apple has actual products that it sells on the open market. People pay money and they get the actual products. Apple designs products for sale and has them produced for the marketplace.

That's not anything like what Enron was doing.

Even Microsoft with all its vaporware over the years never charged consumers and taxpayers two or three times for something that it never delivered or owned.

As for Nintendo, it's getting creamed right now.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/201...D9OP6C800.html

I remember when the Nintendo big shots dismissed Apple's inroads into portable gaming and Nintendo's dissing of mobile gaming generally. They were too full of hubris to see that consumers in a tight economy will buy $0.99 to $9.99 games and use in-app purchases a lot more readily than paying $25-$50 for a single handheld console game. They also missed the clear trend toward mobile development and the creation of hundreds then thousands of games for mobile platforms while they struggled to get out a few games every month. It's an old model run by old thinkers, just like the music business.

That was, as you wrote, a sign of their arrogance, and now it's time to get crushed as the wheel rolls back around.

I love my Wii and will keep using it on a daily basis for the foreseeable future*, but it's clearly been milked for too long and the momentum Nintendo had is expended, wasted in fact, with the lack of vision and comprehension of its corporate keepers.

As long as Wii Fit Plus keeps plugging along I'll use it 30-40 minutes a day. I rarely game on it anymore. I game about 1.5 hours a day on my iPad.
This.

I believe Nintendo thinks they know what their customers want better than their customers do. I think that their losses and difficulty creating momentum for the 3DS are examples of this. I think the developer confusion and chorus of "meh" after the E3 announcement of the wii U is further evidence. I think that they rode the tidal wave of wii sales for just a *little* too long...

I have a wii but I don't play it. Fact is there has been little on the system beyond NSMB to get me excited-- and even that game was shelved after my girlfriend and I beat it. The combination of low resolution graphics and non-existent online support makes it a hum-drum experience to play on wii. Meanwhile, one of my TWO xboxs is always on: whether it's playing single, playing online with friends, watching a movie on Netflix or over my home network, listening to Internet radio, checking out espn, etc...

Bottom line is Nintendo can no longer afford to act like they design their products to be sold in a vacuum-- they've had success in the past but the number of choices of portable devices and set-top boxes that litter the pockets and living rooms of the modern American family is staggering. Nintendo is competing for those spaces. You could argue that my iPhone may not be as good of a game console as a 3DS but it's already in my pocket-- and does ALOT more than just play games!

Similarly the wii U needs to have a compelling reason to own one of those spaces-- it's why microsoft spends so much on Live, it's why Sony put a bluray drive in the PS3, it's why google is pushing into and beyond the mobile phone market and why the iPad is SO important to apple's product strategy.

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post #11 of 26 Old 08-01-2011, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post


I believe Nintendo thinks they know what their customers want better than their customers do.

That's funny... but true.

Nintendo is like... "You don't want online gaming... no, you don't.. NO... YOU DON'T". Very, very stubborn.
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post #12 of 26 Old 08-02-2011, 06:50 AM
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Clear case of Nintendo resting on its laurels. As the poster said earlier, where's Starfox? Luigi? F-Zero? I suppose we should thank our lucky stars that Punchout was dusted off after 15 years, but otherwise too much time between big games, and wayyyyy too much shovelware. Even my 12 year old barely plays his Wii anymore( sold mine a year ago), he's become more interested in my 360 and fighting with me over Angry Birds on my Ipad.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #13 of 26 Old 08-02-2011, 10:11 AM
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Last year was great for the Wii. Galaxy 2, DKCR, Kirby, Other M, etc. And the games sold well. Most of them were awesome. DKCR and Galaxy 2 are 2 of the best games out there IMO.

I don't think Nintendo is resting on their laurels and I don't think releasing more updates would help them out here. They are transitioning to a new generation. Usually game lineups dry up when companies transition as they have more staff working on the new hardware. The thing that's weird here is that they are transitioning while everyone else isn't.

Nintendo should be dinged for not releasing stuff like Xenoblade here, though.
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post #14 of 26 Old 08-02-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post


Last year was great for the Wii. Galaxy 2, DKCR, Kirby, Other M, etc. And the games sold well. Most of them were awesome. DKCR and Galaxy 2 are 2 of the best games out there IMO.

Usually game lineups dry up when companies transition as they have more staff working on the new hardware. The thing that's weird here is that they are transitioning while everyone else isn't.

Technical-wise, the growing consensus seems to be they need to upgrade.

Fair list of games you mention, I still find the lack of a Wii-specific Zelda, Starfox and F-Zero quite odd, however. IMO the Wii has the weakest lineup of all their consoles, either that or the sheer amount of shovelware is drowning out the gems moreso that previous generations.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #15 of 26 Old 08-02-2011, 01:07 PM
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Zelda is coming this year.
F-Zero, well the problem was that F-Zero sold like crap on Cube. Still an awesome game.
StarFox, that series fell off the map after #64. There's been 3 games and nobody has cared about any of them. Hopefully the re-release of 64 will spark an interest.

Wii's lineup... I would honestly say that Nintendo's output is better than Cube. It's close, though. The third-party stuff is horrific, Nintendo should have been a bit tougher about what it allowed.
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-02-2011, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Zelda is coming this year.
F-Zero, well the problem was that F-Zero sold like crap on Cube. Still an awesome game.
StarFox, that series fell off the map after #64. There's been 3 games and nobody has cared about any of them. Hopefully the re-release of 64 will spark an interest.

Wii's lineup... I would honestly say that Nintendo's output is better than Cube. It's close, though. The third-party stuff is horrific, Nintendo should have been a bit tougher about what it allowed.

I'm aware of Skyward Sword, though I have a sneaky suspicion it's going to be 'delayed' in time for the Wii-U launch.

None of the Starfox games after 64 were that good, perhaps that's why it fell off. Take Starfox64 and modernize it and I'd say you have a winner.

I suppose it's subjective, personally I thought Gamecube had a slightly better lineup, mainly because imo the gamecube versions of Nintendo's first party games were a bit better than the wii versions( exception Mario Galaxy being better than Mario Sunshine). But I'd take Smash Brothers Melee over Brawl, Mario Kart double dash over Mario Kart Wii, Cube F-zero( may have sold poorly but a great game), the Day of Reckoning wrestling series, Metal Gear twin snakes, Star Wars Rogue Leader II, Paper Mario thousand year door over Paper Mario Wii. You could come up with a comparable list of good wii titles too( a few of which are Gamecube ports ), but it's just the tremendous amount of shovelware garbage that lessens the Wii's library for me.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #17 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 07:18 AM
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I mean, it's not as if the Wii having a lot of shovelware affects your enjoyment of the good games on the system. Do you even pay attention to them? To me it was all just white noise. Like I'd go to pick up Donkey Kong and see that Oh, they made a Game Party 3. Huh. And that would be the end of my thinking about it. It's not like I'd be playing DK and thinking Raaargh, I can't enjoy this as much knowing Game Party 3 is out there on the shelves, being bought by the moms of people I don't know.

Also, as long as I'm picking at your opinions, everyone knows it is incorrect to praise any wrestling game since No Mercy on the N64.
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post #18 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo View Post

I mean, it's not as if the Wii having a lot of shovelware affects your enjoyment of the good games on the system. Do you even pay attention to them? To me it was all just white noise. Like I'd go to pick up Donkey Kong and see that Oh, they made a Game Party 3. Huh. And that would be the end of my thinking about it. It's not like I'd be playing DK and thinking Raaargh, I can't enjoy this as much knowing Game Party 3 is out there on the shelves, being bought by the moms of people I don't know.

Also, as long as I'm picking at your opinions, everyone knows it is incorrect to praise any wrestling game since No Mercy on the N64.

I didn't say anywhere that the shovelware impacts the games that I do enjoy on the Wii. I'm simply saying that when comparing the Wii against its predecessors, it has a much larger amount of shovelware crap that, IMHO, lessens the Wii library in comparison to Gamecube, N64, Super Nintendo, etc etc. That was the extent of what I said, which has nothing to do with whether 'Wii mini sports party mix' impacts my enjoyment of Mario Galaxy. And again, I personally enjoyed the gamecube versions of certain first party games moreso than the Wii versions. That's totally subjective, and not something I need to expand upon beyond that.

As to your latter point about wrestling games, the Day of Reckoning series, especially the second one, were very good games. In my opinion of course, which you're free to agree or disregard as you see fit.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #19 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 09:47 AM
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Sorry, reading it again my post came off snottier than I intended--I just think it makes far more sense to judge the quality of a console's library based on the good games, with the amount of bad games being irrelevant. Because they are. When people talk about how great the SNES was, it's because it had so many amazing games, and the fact that it also housed, say, Wayne's World and Home Alone the Games doesn't even enter into the conversation. I mean, the GC/N64 had very little shovelware, only because third parties were barely making any games for them at all, but not many consider their libraries superior to those of the PS1/2, which had absolute loads of shovelware but far more good games.

What I'm saying is that whether there's tons of bad games on a system or a lack of bad games on a system, it's of equal value: zero, because in either case we're talking about games I'm not playing. All that matters is the good stuff, the games I actually am playing. Whether it's set against a backdrop of white noise or a black void, to me, seems irrelevant.
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post #20 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 09:56 AM
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Sorry, reading it again my post came off snottier than I intended--I just think it makes far more sense to judge the quality of a console's library based on the good games, with the amount of bad games being irrelevant. Because they are. When people talk about how great the SNES was, it's because it had so many amazing games, and the fact that it also housed, say, Wayne's World and Home Alone the Games doesn't even enter into the conversation. I mean, the GC/N64 had very little shovelware, only because third parties were barely making any games for them at all, but not many consider their libraries superior to those of the PS1/2, which had absolute loads of shovelware but far more good games.

What I'm saying is that whether there's tons of bad games on a system or a lack of bad games on a system, it's of equal value: zero, because in either case we're talking about games I'm not playing. All that matters is the good stuff, the games I actually am playing. Whether it's set against a backdrop of white noise or a black void, to me, seems irrelevant.

I take your point, but I don't dismiss the bad games when judging the overall quality of a gaming library. We're each entitled to our view on the matter, it's certainly not something I wish to invest a ton of time debating with you on. But not only did I speak to the shovelware, I also said that I prefer many of the gamecube first party titles to their Wii counterparts. THAT, more than the shovelware, is why I say I prefer the Gamecube's library overall. Perhaps that wasn't clear earlier, looking at my previous posts, so I'll set the record straight on that now. Your mileage may vary of course....

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #21 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 10:31 AM
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sway your preference. Obviously if you like the GC versions of games better, that's all there is to it. I'm just saying that judging by the amount of bad games is a flawed metric.

Though for the record, Brawl > Melee, Double Dash > MK:Wii, Wind Waker > Twilight Princess, Galaxy > Sunshine.
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post #22 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo View Post

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sway your preference. Obviously if you like the GC versions of games better, that's all there is to it. I'm just saying that judging by the amount of bad games is a flawed metric.

Though for the record, Brawl > Melee, Double Dash > MK:Wii, Wind Waker > Twilight Princess, Galaxy > Sunshine.

Let's put it this way, if a console has 10 good games, and 100 bad games, I'm not going to simply 'dismiss' the bad ones simply on the basis that they're of no interest to me, and then say the console has a 'good' library when only 10% of the games are good. Now, I'm aware that every console has its share of gems and crap, the Wii is no different. And in that light, each console probably has more 'generic' bullcrap than AAA software. I can appreciate how this may not make much sense to you, but when judging a game's library, I tend to look at it in its totality, rather than picking the best and throwing out the rest. Wii Shovelware game 'X' is as much a Wii game as Mario Galaxy is, quality differences aside. Especially when you're talking about a situation where if you consider the best of Wii and the best of Gamecube to be comparable in quality, then you'd need to start looking at the second/third/forth tier software on each system if you're trying to measure the 'overall' quality of their respective libraries. That's my take on it, anyway...

But, for the sake of discontinuing that line of debate, let's toss the 'shovelware' argument out the door. Fair enough? As I said, and you agreed with above, my preferences are just that....my preferences. As are yours..... it's not something that really needs to be discussed further.

But from where I sit, it's:

Melee> Brawl
Double Dash > Kart Wii
Galaxy> Sunshine
Windwaker> Twillight Princess
Paper Mario GC > Paper Mario Wii


Then of course, you've got F-zero, Star Wars Rogue Leader II and III, Eternal Darkness, Luigi's mansion, Metal gear twin snakes.....how these may compare to games like Donkey Kong returns, Punchout, New Super Mario Wii, etc etc is totally subjective( then again,so is the above game comparisons). I've declined to include Gamecube titles that were 'wii-fied' like Resident Evil 4, Mario Tennis or Metroid Prime trilogy( with the first two Primes being original Gamecube titles).

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #23 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 11:47 AM
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Eh, sure, I was just looking for fun debate while sitting at work, but if I'm just being annoying about the shovelware thing, happy to drop it.

It's a close call, but I think I slightly prefer the Wii library over the GC if pressed. If nothing else, I think Galaxy 2, NSMBW and DKCR walk all over the top GC games, and I wouldn't put Excitebots, Punch-Out and No More Heroes that far behind. Plus, everyone bags on it now, but Wii Sports is arguably the most revolutionary software (or at least revolutionary-feeling, at the time) we've seen in a long time. I don't think a videogame before or since has ever produced quite a feeling as that did the first time I played it, and continued to play it for countless hours with friends/family. I generally will go with the revolutionary generation over the evolutionary one, though it did lead to a few missteps, such as with MK Wii.

You're still wrong about No Mercy not being the pinnacle of wrestling games, though! Okay fine I never played Day of Reckoning...
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post #24 of 26 Old 08-03-2011, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo View Post



You're still wrong about No Mercy not being the pinnacle of wrestling games, though! Okay fine I never played Day of Reckoning...

Oh I never said anything to the contrary. I'd rank No Mercy as the greatest wrestling video game period. I simply said Day of Reckoning was a fine series in its own right, and on Gamecube.

But in all seriousness, the closest in terms of gameplay you'll find to the old AKI N64 games, is Day of Reckoning. I still play those games, haven't touched any other wrestling game since Smackdown 2006 because I couldn't care less about today's wrestling product. If interested, check out Day of reckoning II, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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post #25 of 26 Old 08-05-2011, 09:46 AM
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For all this talk of shovelware, keep in mind that what constitutes shovelware is purely subjective. For example, to me Call of Duty and the "brown shooters" that pollute the Xbox 360/PS3 is shovelware. That is one of the reasons why I dont own either console.
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post #26 of 26 Old 08-05-2011, 06:58 PM
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Good point, Readykilowatt. I suppose there's at least one person out there that would place 'Chicken Shoot' on the same level as Mario Galaxy.....

Too many systems and games....not enough time or money!

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