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post #361 of 1142 Old 06-30-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just think direction of so-called "motion gaming" has shifted quite a bit. The Wii may have fomented the change, but others have since evolved it. Consumer interest in Wii dropped off a cliff not because of outdated graphics tech. It was because the Wii's motion paradigm was outdated.

Also, third parties seem uninterested in continuing to emphasize the Wii Remote, and it's still not clear to me how any of Nintendo's first-party titles will use it--outside of multiplayer.

During the e3 conference, the absolute first game they showed was pikmin 3, and they started out demonstrating it with a wiimote and nunchuk.

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post #362 of 1142 Old 06-30-2012, 12:17 PM
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Wow. Did they really? Totally missed that. Okay. Well, that clinches it.

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post #363 of 1142 Old 06-30-2012, 02:00 PM
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Wow. Did they really? Totally missed that. Okay. Well, that clinches it.

Yep. They eventually came around to "you can use the gamepad too", but it was decidedly wiimote focused. So they're def not deprecating it. This is a primary control method.

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post #364 of 1142 Old 06-30-2012, 02:10 PM
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Yep. They eventually came around to "you can use the gamepad too", but it was decidedly wiimote focused. So they're def not deprecating it. This is a primary control method.
Ugh. Beginning to remember now why so many people were let down and/or confused by their conference...

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post #365 of 1142 Old 06-30-2012, 03:30 PM
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At the very least for major 1st party releases, I'm sure we have a Wii Sports release (Too big of a franchise now to just disappear) and a Zelda release to look forward to (Anything less than Skyward Sword's control mechanics will bother much of the fanbase, I don't see them going back to an Ocarina of Time style setup although you wouldn't hear any complaints from me).

And unlike the Wii where the GameCube compatibility was probably expected to never be utilized by most that purchased the system, the Wii was a very successful system (Although I think in retrospect, any objective person would agree that it was a mixed success despite what some of the statistics suggest). Including what's necessary out of the box to accomplish backwards compatibility for a new Wii U owner that might've missed out on the Wii, someone that traded in their hardware to go towards their new Wii U, or had earlier sold their Wii but want to revisit some games or play some that they missed out on like Skyward Sword seems like something they'd certainly be giving strong consideration towards.

I think there's a strong case for it. If seeing Wii controllers in the package is risking consumer confusion, I think it's best tackled with things like their marketing rather than doing damage to their position in an area of modern gaming that they helped create half a decade ago by not including the necessary controls for motion projects.

Will be interesting to see how it turns out.
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post #366 of 1142 Old 07-01-2012, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

At the very least for major 1st party releases, I'm sure we have a Wii Sports release (Too big of a franchise now to just disappear) and a Zelda release to look forward to (Anything less than Skyward Sword's control mechanics will bother much of the fanbase, I don't see them going back to an Ocarina of Time style setup although you wouldn't hear any complaints from me).

And unlike the Wii where the GameCube compatibility was probably expected to never be utilized by most that purchased the system, the Wii was a very successful system (Although I think in retrospect, any objective person would agree that it was a mixed success despite what some of the statistics suggest). Including what's necessary out of the box to accomplish backwards compatibility for a new Wii U owner that might've missed out on the Wii, someone that traded in their hardware to go towards their new Wii U, or had earlier sold their Wii but want to revisit some games or play some that they missed out on like Skyward Sword seems like something they'd certainly be giving strong consideration towards.

I think there's a strong case for it. If seeing Wii controllers in the package is risking consumer confusion, I think it's best tackled with things like their marketing rather than doing damage to their position in an area of modern gaming that they helped create half a decade ago by not including the necessary controls for motion projects.

Will be interesting to see how it turns out.

What's confusing about it? If their hook is asymmetric MP, not including one can be confusing. People won't know what to buy. And what's the point of bundling in a minigame collection based on asymmetric MP if people can't play it out of the box?

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post #367 of 1142 Old 07-01-2012, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What's confusing about it? If their hook is asymmetric MP, not including one can be confusing. People won't know what to buy. And what's the point of bundling in a minigame collection based on asymmetric MP if people can't play it out of the box?
Let me play devil's advocate for a moment longer:

*Ahem*

Will we need a Wii Remote to play multiplayer? How many? Will my original Wii Remotes work, or will I need to replace them with Wii Motion Plus controllers? If I can't tell the difference by looking at the two, how will I know? What if I only have one Wii Motion Plus, but many old Wii Remotes; will the Motion Plus Controller have the advantage? Will the Classic Controller attachment work? Can I use the controls on the GamePad instead of a Wii Remote for multiplayer? What about the Pro Controller? What about online asymmetric multiplayer? And so on.

The answers aren't clear to me, and I'm paying attention. Imagine how the majority of the gaming public will react. eek.gif

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post #368 of 1142 Old 07-01-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What's confusing about it? If their hook is asymmetric MP, not including one can be confusing. People won't know what to buy. And what's the point of bundling in a minigame collection based on asymmetric MP if people can't play it out of the box?
Let me play devil's advocate for a moment longer:

*Ahem*

Will we need a Wii Remote to play multiplayer? How many? Will my original Wii Remotes work, or will I need to replace them with Wii Motion Plus controllers? If I can't tell the difference by looking at the two, how will I know? What if I only have one Wii Motion Plus, but many old Wii Remotes; will the Motion Plus Controller have the advantage? Will the Classic Controller attachment work? Can I use the controls on the GamePad instead of a Wii Remote for multiplayer? What about the Pro Controller? What about online asymmetric multiplayer? And so on.

The answers aren't clear to me, and I'm paying attention. Imagine how the majority of the gaming public will react. eek.gif

Oh don't get me wrong. There are multiple layers of confusion here. But putting a wiimote in the box doesn't make it any worse.

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post #369 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 06:58 AM
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Hm, I think you guys are starting to convince me as to the wisdom of including a Wiimote pack-in...but I still think they won't, because that still seems like the exact type of corner Nintendo likes to cut. They may have emphasized Wiimote controls from Pikmin 3 at E3, but it's still going to work perfectly fine with Gamepad controls. And this is what I'm saying, as long as Nintendoland is playable as a one-player experience with just a Gamepad (to be fair, I'm not sure it is), they will not feel obligated to include a Wiimote, public emphasis on "asymmetric multiplayer" or no. Most of the appeal of Wii Sports was multiplayer, but you didn't see them packing in a second Wiimote with the original Wii.

Besides, wouldn't much of the Wiimote-install-base problem be solved by packing in a Wiimote with the inevitable Wii Sports 3?
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post #370 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 07:13 AM
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Hm, I think you guys are starting to convince me as to the wisdom of including a Wiimote pack-in...but I still think they won't, because that still seems like the exact type of corner Nintendo likes to cut. They may have emphasized Wiimote controls from Pikmin 3 at E3, but it's still going to work perfectly fine with Gamepad controls. And this is what I'm saying, as long as Nintendoland is playable as a one-player experience with just a Gamepad (to be fair, I'm not sure it is), they will not feel obligated to include a Wiimote, public emphasis on "asymmetric multiplayer" or no. Most of the appeal of Wii Sports was multiplayer, but you didn't see them packing in a second Wiimote with the original Wii.

The most popular part of wii sports by far was bowling - and all that needed was one controller for multiplayer. So it did pretty well out of the box. Besides, the hook they were trying to sell people on was motion gaming - it didn't require more than one controller to demonstrate it and convince people to go out and buy more. The stuff they already showed of nintendo land - that's going to be really lame single player. I dunno how eager people are going to be to run out and buy more controllers if they're not already sold on the idea. One wiimote at least lets them have a taste.
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Besides, wouldn't much of the Wiimote-install-base problem be solved by packing in a Wiimote with the inevitable Wii Sports 3?

Think about how many motion plus games there were. That's how many wiimote focused games you should expect if they go that route.

I don't think the gamepad is a concept that's ready to drive an entire console. Not while they're so expensive and/or the console isn't capable of powering many of them at once, or they're not independently capable on their own. Asymmetric MP isnt a revolutionary idea - its a compromise that's dictated by the limitations of their tech. The wiimote was and still is a great, unique idea - they should have radically improved on that, rather than this sideshow. Packing in a wiimote at least lets them hedge their bet on the gamepad, and leaves open the door to unique styles of gameplay that the wiiU is going to need to survive. Cause as a mainstream, core gamer system, the writing is already on the wall, unless the competition *really* phones it in - and we all know they won't.

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post #371 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What's confusing about it? If their hook is asymmetric MP, not including one can be confusing. People won't know what to buy. And what's the point of bundling in a minigame collection based on asymmetric MP if people can't play it out of the box?

There are some that seem unaware the Wii U represents a new console rather than an accessory for the existing platform. As such, some in this thread suggest it's going to be dangerous for Nintendo to include a Wiimote since it might lead to further confusion about the nature of this product.

Myself and several others suggest that instead of crippling Nintendo's console where motion gaming is concerned by failing to bundle in a proper controller for full motion gaming to prevent such confusion, that it would be better tackled via things like their marketing campaign.
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Hm, I think you guys are starting to convince me as to the wisdom of including a Wiimote pack-in...but I still think they won't, because that still seems like the exact type of corner Nintendo likes to cut. They may have emphasized Wiimote controls from Pikmin 3 at E3, but it's still going to work perfectly fine with Gamepad controls. And this is what I'm saying, as long as Nintendoland is playable as a one-player experience with just a Gamepad (to be fair, I'm not sure it is), they will not feel obligated to include a Wiimote, public emphasis on "asymmetric multiplayer" or no. Most of the appeal of Wii Sports was multiplayer, but you didn't see them packing in a second Wiimote with the original Wii.

The point isn't what controller Pikmin 3, New Super Mario Brothers U, or Nintendoland is going to use or providing enough controllers out of the box for two player multiplayer in Nintendoland.

The point is providing the necessary options out of the box for a Wii U purchaser to be able to enjoy a motion game without buying an additional accessory and to guarantee to publishers and developers that the Wii U's install base is all setup with the necessary controllers for motion gaming.

Failure to do that is going to do significant damage to the prospects a motion project will have on the platform. You''re suddenly not selling to an entire install base. Rather, you're selling to just a segment of Wii U buyers... those that have existing Wiimotes, have bought a Wiimote with their new console, or would be willing to purchase one in order to play the project in question. And the picture is even cloudier where Motion Plus implimentation is concerned with many Wii owners not having a single Motion Plus Wiimote or dongle.

Want to see something similar to what I'm talking about in action? Log onto any multiplayer game beyond a handful of the most popular titles (Halo and Call of Duty, primarily) and try to play with a DLC expansion. Dirt 3 for instance has some nice DLC (I love the Monte Carlo rally tracks), but despite the DLC having been out for a while and even having been bundled in a rerelease of the title, it's incredibly rare to play any of it online despite there being dozens of races available at any hour of the day.

Failure to include proper motion controllers out of the box is going to cloud the horizon where motion gaming is concerned on the platform. A decent percentage of people aren't going to go out and buy the necessary accessories to do it. Particularly if they expect to draw in some former fans that have been away for a while on other platforms that will lack existing Wii accessories like they seem to be hoping for and working towards after realizing the casual crowd isn't the most lucrative segment where game sales are concerned.

Like bd203 said, look at how many Motion Plus projects the Wii recieved. Publishers want to sell to an entire install base, not a subsection of one, That's why you'd never see a console racing game that mandates a player use a wheel and pedals for instance. That's also why the fears some had about the prospects of a right analog stick in a 3DS revcision were foolish. Publishers would still be supporting single stick systems with every title since there are millions of them out there. They weren't going to suddenly just be selling software to those owning a system revision.
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post #372 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 09:42 AM
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To clarify, I'm not arguing what I think Nintendo should do, I'm arguing what I think they WILL do. And I think they're going to look at all the Wiimotes already out in the wild, possibly figure they can bolster that already reasonably healthy-ish number with a Wii Sports 3/Wiimote bundle, ensure most future motion-controlled games are at least functional with Gamepad controls, and figure they don't need to eat a $40 Wiimote pack-in cost per console.

I also, like other people here, question just how much Nintendo will be emphasizing motion controls going forward. You can point out how few Motion+ games there were and chalk it up to an install base problem (never mind that third parties were barely making Wii games at all, let alone M+ ones). But really, Nintendo themselves, beyond a few obvious biggies like Wii Sports Resort and Skyward Sword, didn't exactly overemphasize motion gaming in general, particularly in the middle-late stages of the console's life. Mario Galaxy 1 & 2, Mario Kart, Smash Brothers, DKCR, New Super Mario Bros Wii all basically seemed to incorporate motion controls just because they were there, not because they were needed. It seems unlikely they're going to aim for a motion-control resurgence while also pushing the GamePad. I don't think it's unreasonable to theorize that Nintendo is looking at Wiimotes more as a "Player 2" controller going forward with the Wii U (simply because multiple GamePads isn't feasible) rather than a prioritized control input.
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post #373 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 10:13 AM
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I imagine motion will have a good bit of importance on the Wii U. But I can't argue with any of that.

I've been going on about what I think they should do if they want to maximize their success with motion gaming and why, not necessarily what I think they're going to do. Nintendo of America in particular seems to spend more time puzzling me in recent years than anything else so I'd rather just stay away from even trying to wage a guess.

To provide another wrinkle though, what about the sensor bar? Sure, this gamepad will incorporate one. But that doesn't do gamers much good when utilizing Wiimotes while looking at the television (Particularly if it's multiplayer and the gamepad is in use by one of the player's and can't be set under the tv). Seems strange to pack-in a sensor bar for an accessory that itself isn't included.

Two Wiimote SKU's, one with a sensor bar and one without for those buying a second Wiimote or those utilizing their original Wii's sensor bar?
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post #374 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

I imagine motion will have a good bit of importance on the Wii U. But I can't argue with any of that.

I've been going on about what I think they should do if they want to maximize their success with motion gaming and why, not necessarily what I think they're going to do. Nintendo of America in particular seems to spend more time puzzling me in recent years than anything else so I'd rather just stay away from even trying to wage a guess.

To provide another wrinkle though, what about the sensor bar? Sure, this gamepad will incorporate one. But that doesn't do gamers much good when utilizing Wiimotes while looking at the television (Particularly if it's multiplayer and the gamepad is in use by one of the player's). Seems strange to pack-in a sensor bar for an accessory that itself isn't included.

Two Wiimote SKU's, one with a sensor bar and one without for those buying a second Wiimote or those utilizing their original Wii's sensor bar?

One could imagine that any game utilizing the wiimote as a pointer (such as pikmin 3) will force the gamepad into nothing more than a really fancy sensor bar.

Therefore the asymmetric MP simply won't use pointing. And since that's already cutting out half of what makes a wiimote unique, might as well cut out motion entirely and just make games that use only the dpad + 2 buttons, so the classic controllers can participate as well.

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post #375 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 10:58 AM
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Like I said, I started off thinking a Wiimote pack-in would be unnecessary, but you guys are starting to sway me. But I'm still using my usual formula for calculating Nintendo's future actions, which is as follows:
Quote:
pessimism
The sensor bar question is a good one, though, and muddies the picture for me a bit. One would think they'd include it in the Wii U package since that thing must literally cost them half a cent and even they must realize it'd be a bit much to ask players to run out and buy a Wiimote AND a sensor bar for multiplayer. On the other hand, yeah, it could be weird and kinda confusing to include a wired piece of plastic in the box that some families would potentially never use and end up just tossing in the same box where they keep all their leftover IKEA parts.

I'm starting to like the idea of multiple SKUs more, even though it's not very Nintendo. But I think they have to break out some new strategies (read: old for everybody else) this time around. Bare-bones Wii U + GamePad SKU so they can tout a low starting price, and a Wii U + GamePad + Nintendoland + Wiimote SKU for an attractive premium that combined with all the existing Wiimotes effectively solves the Wiimote install-base problem.
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post #376 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:09 AM
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One could imagine that any game utilizing the wiimote as a pointer (such as pikmin 3) will force the gamepad into nothing more than a really fancy sensor bar.
Therefore the asymmetric MP simply won't use pointing. And since that's already cutting out half of what makes a wiimote unique, might as well cut out motion entirely and just make games that use only the dpad + 2 buttons, so the classic controllers can participate as well.

So you're suggesting that there just won't be any motion projects that involve asymmetrical multiplayer with the gamepad with both types in full use at the same time?

I was under the impression that the sensor bar on the gamepad is for when gameplay is streamed to the gamepad instead of a television and a Wiimote is needed. Doesn't seem very Nintendo like to expect people to prop up their gamepad by their tv when using Wiimotes (Or very practical for many setups). But it seems even less practical come to think of it that anyone would be interested in streaming gameplay to the WiiU's screen while using Wiimotes at the same time (Not suggesting it wouldn't be fully playable, but motion gameplay and a small display aren't things I picture going together). So you might be right.

Of course if the suggestion is accurate that they're not going to include a Wiimote because there are so many Wiimotes already out there, I suppose it's not a big leap to think that they're also thinking similarly about the sensor bar and assuming that most will just move their existing one over.

Starting to wonder if they're just going to ship these things and let people find out such details for themselves. Don't understand the lack of concrete details for a console supposedly due out in well under half a year (Unless they plan to launch it just days before Christmas)..
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post #377 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:13 AM
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Like I said, I started off thinking a Wiimote pack-in would be unnecessary, but you guys are starting to sway me. But I'm still using my usual formula for calculating Nintendo's future actions, which is as follows:
Quote:
pessimism
The sensor bar question is a good one, though, and muddies the picture for me a bit. One would think they'd include it in the Wii U package since that thing must literally cost them half a cent and even they must realize it'd be a bit much to ask players to run out and buy a Wiimote AND a sensor bar for multiplayer. On the other hand, yeah, it could be weird and kinda confusing to include a wired piece of plastic in the box that some families would potentially never use and end up just tossing in the same box where they keep all their leftover IKEA parts.

I'm starting to like the idea of multiple SKUs more, even though it's not very Nintendo. But I think they have to break out some new strategies (read: old for everybody else) this time around. Bare-bones Wii U + GamePad SKU so they can tout a low starting price, and a Wii U + GamePad + Nintendoland + Wiimote SKU for an attractive premium that combined with all the existing Wiimotes effectively solves the Wiimote install-base problem.

That doesn't really solve the installbase problem. Nintendo did that with the zapper, ROB and power pad with the NES. Hardly anyone but them made games for those peripherals, and even they made very few.

If its not in *every* box, it's marginalized.

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post #378 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:17 AM
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One could imagine that any game utilizing the wiimote as a pointer (such as pikmin 3) will force the gamepad into nothing more than a really fancy sensor bar.
Therefore the asymmetric MP simply won't use pointing. And since that's already cutting out half of what makes a wiimote unique, might as well cut out motion entirely and just make games that use only the dpad + 2 buttons, so the classic controllers can participate as well.

So you're suggesting that there just won't be any motion projects that involve asymmetrical multiplayer with the gamepad with both types in full use at the same time?

I got to think that the sensor bar on the gamepad is for when gameplay is streamed to the gamepad. Doesn't seem very Nintendo like to expect people to prop up their gamepad by their tv when using Wiimotes (Or very practical for many setups).

That's what I'm suggesting. I don't believe anything they showed at e3 demonstrated anything beyond that.

Even if you can use the wiimote to point at the gamepad, no one can be using the gamepad at the same time, otherwise they'd be blocking the LEDs of the sensor with their body.

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post #379 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:36 AM
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Even if you can use the wiimote to point at the gamepad, no one can be using the gamepad at the same time, otherwise they'd be blocking the LEDs of the sensor with their body.

Of course the gamepad can't be used as a controller at the same time Wiimotes are being pointed at it.

But gameplay can be streamed to the gamepad in place of a television. So if you wanted to play a motion game using the touch screen on the gamepad for your display in place of a television, clearly you'd need a sensor bar.

Those are the circumstances as I understand it for why the gamepad has a sensor bar.
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post #380 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:45 AM
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That doesn't really solve the installbase problem. Nintendo did that with the zapper, ROB and power pad with the NES. Hardly anyone but them made games for those peripherals, and even they made very few.
If its not in *every* box, it's marginalized.
I dunno, I think having one (almost certainly more popular) SKU having the Wiimote plus all the already-owned Wiimotes out there gives them enough leeway to do all the motion control stuff they want. If MS and Sony could get away with selling bare-bones consoles that immediately needed a bigger hard drive the instant you got home, Nintendo can get away with not having a Wiimote in every single box.

I also think it's a mistake to assume peripherals weren't supported merely due to install base (not that this isn't a factor), when there are other, larger reasons for it. ROB, for instance, suuuuuuucked
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post #381 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:50 AM
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Even if you can use the wiimote to point at the gamepad, no one can be using the gamepad at the same time, otherwise they'd be blocking the LEDs of the sensor with their body.

Of course the gamepad can't be used as a controller at the same time Wiimotes are being pointed at it.

But gameplay can be streamed to the gamepad in place of a television. So if you wanted to play a motion game using the touch screen on the gamepad for your display in place of a television, clearly you'd need a sensor bar.

Those are the circumstances as I understand it for why the gamepad has a sensor bar.

Sure, but in neither case would you actually need a separate sensor bar on the TV. If you're using the wiimote, you're not using the gamepad. Unless you have four hands.

The Wii U apparently has the port on the back for it, but that doesn't mean it comes in the box. It could, I could even make a good argument for why it should. But only if it has a wiimote in the box. No way it comes with a sensor and not the wiimote. That'd be crazy.

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post #382 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 11:55 AM
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I dunno, I think having one (almost certainly more popular) SKU having the Wiimote plus all the already-owned Wiimotes out there gives them enough leeway to do all the motion control stuff they want. If MS and Sony could get away with selling bare-bones consoles that immediately needed a bigger hard drive the instant you got home, Nintendo can get away with not having a Wiimote in every single box.

I don't think there's a single 360 game that requires a HDD. I don't think MS even allows that. If there are, they're rare. No one is making any games for the 360 or PS3 that the lowest end launch model can't play.
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I also think it's a mistake to assume peripherals weren't supported merely due to install base (not that this isn't a factor), when there are other, larger reasons for it. ROB, for instance, suuuuuuucked

I'm with you there. But I think the wiimote has a lot more potential than your average crazy peripheral. That's really what they're deciding when they decide whether or not to pack one in - is this a "real controller", or a peripheral?

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post #383 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 01:05 PM
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And because of that, the hard drive probably isn't being taken full advantage of in the average 360 game (Although there are a few multiplayer modes that require it as do the Xbox Originals downloads).

Having to appeal to the lowest common demoninator means it's not being taken advantage of to its full capabilities. It's the same reason that many PS2 ports on the Xbox, despite a standard hard drive and significantly more capabile console, often weren't significantly improved. The PS2 was dominating so publishers logically were developing games based on those capabilities.

I suspect you'd see something similar where motion gaming is concerned on the Wii U if a Wiimote isn't a standard part of the package. Publishers will want games that at the very least are compatible with the gamepad rather than seeing projects that take full advantage of Wii Motion Plus.

Additionally, even if 90% + of Wii U purchasers are Wii owners with a Motion Plus remote at hand, just the stigma of creating a project that requires something that didn't come with the console is something that's going to make many an executive cautious where motion projects are concerned on the Wii U.

And that's the very area where Nintendo's console business outside of their own software lineup (Much of which has been motion focused as well) has seen the most success over the past half decade...
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I dunno, I think having one (almost certainly more popular) SKU having the Wiimote plus all the already-owned Wiimotes out there gives them enough leeway to do all the motion control stuff they want.

A big problem with that line of thought is Motion Plus. There are an awful lot of regular Wiimotes out there that didn't have it built in and don't have the attachment. And I suspect a significant percentage of Wii owners lack a single Motion Plus remote.

If they expect Motion Plus to see widespread use, the number of existing controllers out there and number of Wii owners with the necessary equipment without having to buy something additional just dropped dramatically.
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If you're using the wiimote, you're not using the gamepad. Unless you have four hands.

You don't know about the steaming capabilities of the Wii U? You can switch the video output from the tv to the touch screen. Nintendo wants a console that doesn't have to be tied to a tv at all times.

So you very well could be using the touch screen of the gamepad as your display while using Wiimotes for your controllers. Hence why it may have an integrated sensor bar.

Nobody ever suggested that someone would be using the gamepad as a controller at the same time that they were also using a Wiimote.
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post #384 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 01:31 PM
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A big problem with that line of thought is Motion Plus. There are an awful lot of regular Wiimotes out there that didn't have it built in and don't have the attachment. And I suspect a significant percentage of Wii owners lack a single Motion Plus remote.
I'm one of those. It's also why I haven't played Skyward Sword yet. I even tried recently to buy the separate Motion Plus attachment, but Nintendo stopped producing/selling them. So then I figured I'd just wait to play Skyward Sword until I finally bought a Wii U. Why shell out $50-60 for a new Motion Plus controller when I'm already going to dump a couple hundred into a new console?

I appreciate that Nintendo revised their controller halfway through the console's lifecycle, but it sucks because it creates a tiered market. There weren't enough other games that justified the Motion Plus purchase, so I never bothered. And as much as I love the Zelda games, I had a hard time justifying spending $100+ just to play the newest one. I wonder how much Skyward Sword's sales were affected by people in my position.

Anyhow, yeah. Nintendo's facing a lot of potential issues with a massively stratified controller market. Certain games are best suited to specific controllers, and there will now be at least 6-7 different controller possibilities and combinations on Wii U (GamePad, Wii Remote, Wii Motion Plus, Balance Board, Classic Controller, Pro Controller, and asymmetric play). And with Nintendo's track record, there's typically only one or two games worth playing for each control type.

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post #385 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 01:52 PM
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And because of that, the hard drive probably isn't being taken full advantage of in the average 360 game (Although there are a few multiplayer modes that require it as do the Xbox Originals downloads).
Having to appeal to the lowest common demoninator means it's not being taken advantage of to its full capabilities. It's the same reason that many PS2 ports on the Xbox, despite a standard hard drive and significantly more capabile console, often weren't significantly improved. The PS2 was dominating so publishers logically were developing games based on those capabilities.
I suspect you'd see something similar where motion gaming is concerned on the Wii U if a Wiimote isn't a standard part of the package. Publishers will want games that at the very least are compatible with the gamepad rather than seeing projects that take full advantage of Wii Motion Plus.
Additionally, even if 90% + of Wii U purchasers are Wii owners with a Motion Plus remote at hand, just the stigma of creating a project that requires something that didn't come with the console is something that's going to make many an executive cautious where motion projects are concerned on the Wii U.
And that's the very area where Nintendo's console business outside of their own software lineup (Much of which has been motion focused as well) has seen the most success over the past half decade...

Agreed. Whether or not a wiimote is packed in is an absolutely defining statement about the console.
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You don't know about the steaming capabilities of the Wii U? You can switch the video output from the tv to the touch screen. Nintendo wants a console that doesn't have to be tied to a tv at all times.
So you very well could be using the touch screen of the gamepad as your display while using Wiimotes for your controllers. Hence why it may have an integrated sensor bar.
Nobody ever suggested that someone would be using the gamepad as a controller at the same time that they were also using a Wiimote.

I don't think you're following me here. All I'm saying is that they can get away with not packing in a sensor bar, fully relying on the gamepad to be the sensor bar. Any game in which you're using the wiimote as the primary controls, the gamepad is playing a merely passive role, whether its acting as the primary display or not. It can either sit in front/above the display, or be the display - but at no point do you really need a dedicated sensor bar.

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post #386 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 01:58 PM
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I'm one of those. It's also why I haven't played Skyward Sword yet. I even tried recently to buy the separate Motion Plus attachment, but Nintendo stopped producing/selling them. So then I figured I'd just wait to play Skyward Sword until I finally bought a Wii U. Why shell out $50-60 for a new Motion Plus controller when I'm already going to dump a couple hundred into a new console?
I appreciate that Nintendo revised their controller halfway through the console's lifecycle, but it sucks because it creates a tiered market. There weren't enough other games that justified the Motion Plus purchase, so I never bothered. And as much as I love the Zelda games, I had a hard time justifying spending $100+ just to play the newest one. I wonder how much Skyward Sword's sales were affected by people in my position.
Anyhow, yeah. Nintendo's facing a lot of potential issues with a massively stratified controller market. Certain games are best suited to specific controllers, and there will now be at least 6-7 different controller possibilities and combinations on Wii U (GamePad, Wii Remote, Wii Motion Plus, Balance Board, Classic Controller, Pro Controller, and asymmetric play). And with Nintendo's track record, there's typically only one or two games worth playing for each control type.

You forgot the nunchuk. :P

There has never been a console launch with such fragmentation. The entire idea of using prior gen controllers as a primary control method is already kind of ludicrous on its own, but one with multiple revisions and accessories? Its a total mess. Even if they pack a wiimote in, which would help a great deal....its still a mess. A mess precipitated by going with an idea (the gamepad) that's not ready for prime time. They should never have forged ahead with it in the first place. As neat as the idea is, they could have come up with a better one. I am 100% certain the asymmetric MP idea came after the fact, since they couldn't realistically support more than one of them. They're making lemons out of lemonade, but there's literally no path for them now that doesn't lead to some level of confusion.

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post #387 of 1142 Old 07-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Let me throw something out there. Imagine an alternate universe where the Wii Gamepad is far more sophisticated. Imagine both sides detach from the screen, and you've got three independent parts - two wireless handheld controllers that are functionally wireless motion controllers on their own, and a tablet controller (in this fantasy, its also a proper multitouch capacitve screen). Add/rearrange a few buttons and it could stand in as a wiimote/nunchuk, or basically any other controller ever created. It allows them to do everything they're currently planning with their asymmetric MP out of the box without any troubling compatibility/fragmentation questions, it allows them to maintain backwards compatibility with their own library as well as the PS3/360 ports. It gives devs a huge canvas of options to make any and every type of game. Of course, in this alternative universe nintendo is willing to take a hit or at least forgo profits on hardware to build install base. The Wii U is also powerful enough to support at least two of the gamepads without any real compromises.

It comes out summer 2012, packed with Wii Olympics, just in time for London. The holiday has a huge new mario release. Alongside that, for $99, you can buy a bundle of a second gamepad bundled with nintendo land - with the two gamepads, you've got the potential for 6 player, asymmetric MP.

None of this is terribly unrealistic.

I'd bust out my sleeping bag and get ready to sleep in line for that.

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post #388 of 1142 Old 07-03-2012, 08:32 AM
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Agreed. Whether or not a wiimote is packed in is an absolutely defining statement about the console.
I don't think you're following me here. All I'm saying is that they can get away with not packing in a sensor bar, fully relying on the gamepad to be the sensor bar.

While I understand that (Although I think it would be a poor decision on their part), I was simply trying to explain to you what I said earlier.

I stated... "I got to think that the sensor bar on the gamepad is for when gameplay is streamed to the gamepad. Doesn't seem very Nintendo like to expect people to prop up their gamepad by their tv when using Wiimotes (Or very practical for many setups)."

Then you replied quoting that by saying "if you can use the wiimote to point at the gamepad, no one can be using the gamepad at the same time, otherwise they'd be blocking the LEDs of the sensor with their body."

Understand now what I was in reference to? I'm saying it was my understanding that the integrated sensor bar was for when you were basically using the gamepad as a portable display sitting in front of you while using Wii controllers when away from the tv.
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Certain games are best suited to specific controllers, and there will now be at least 6-7 different controller possibilities and combinations on Wii U (GamePad, Wii Remote, Wii Motion Plus, Balance Board, Classic Controller, Pro Controller, and asymmetric play). And with Nintendo's track record, there's typically only one or two games worth playing for each control type.

People with balance board games already have the balance board. And I suspect any future releases (Which I'm sure there will be since Wii Fit has been too successful not to get a sequel at the very least) will come with two SKU's to cater to existing owners and also those that don't have the necessary accessory. It's such a niche item that was never going to have much software made for it even if they were crazy and bundled it in. So I don't think it's much of a problem (Unlike the Wiimote situation).

As for the different choices of gamepads, what can a Classic Controller and Pro Controller do on this platform that the packed in gamepad can't already do? Other than perhaps being unable to serve as a Classic Controller substitute in a BC Wii release, they have no special capabilities that the gamepad doesn't have. They all have a d-pad, shoulder buttons, 4 face buttons, dual analog sticks, etc.

Beyond filling out multiplayer rosters, I don't see any special needs for those two controllers where Wii U software is concerned and suspect a Wii U owner that does single player could get by easily without either. And I wouldn't be shocked if you didn't even need a Classic Controller to utilize Classic Controller functionality in an original Wii title (Although I'd equally not be surprised to see the Wii U's gamepad be unable to function as a CC substitute similar to the inability to use a CC to play GCN software on the Wii).
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post #389 of 1142 Old 07-03-2012, 12:22 PM
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People with balance board games already have the balance board. And I suspect any future releases (Which I'm sure there will be since Wii Fit has been too successful not to get a sequel at the very least) will come with two SKU's to cater to existing owners and also those that don't have the necessary accessory. It's such a niche item that was never going to have much software made for it even if they were crazy and bundled it in. So I don't think it's much of a problem (Unlike the Wiimote situation).
It's far from niche. Judging by the crazy sales figures of Wii Fit, a very significant portion of Wii owners have a balance board. It's about on par with guitar controllers for Guitar Hero/Rock Band. It was also part of the E3 showing for Wii U. My point is that only a small handful of games on Nintendo platforms sell well, and those that do, sell very well. On the Wii, almost every one of those big sellers had a particular controller or peripheral--often with that controller or peripheral packed in. Based on that successful tactic, I expect Nintendo will do the same for Wii U.

Point being, the already insanely complex morass of plastic will only get more insanely complex. The big difference this time around is that Nintendo will have a brief window (1-2 years) where multiplatform releases will be a bigger part of their library. Which means many of us will just end up using the Pro Controller most of the time--assuming we don't play those games on other platforms.

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post #390 of 1142 Old 07-03-2012, 06:05 PM
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Making a game for it is pretty niche. I've got the How Much Do I Weigh? game and I play that a few times a week but other than that one they're pretty scarce.

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