WII U blue color representation it's different in my tv than in my wii u gamepad - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 01-21-2013, 09:31 AM
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Got the WOW blu ray!

I calibrated and hey, things do look better! The included filter is great for the color and tint, no way I would have nailed those settings, ever.
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post #32 of 55 Old 01-21-2013, 01:04 PM
 
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Yup, that blue filter goes a long way toward getting things right. smile.gif
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post #33 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 07:57 AM
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I would be less concerned about color matching and more concerned about latency of your TV or Monitor. It's not like you will ever be constantly looking at both the same time but I do understand why it might bother some. The 3DS XL is a perfect example, however you will be looking at both screens all the time..
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post #34 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 02:31 PM
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There is zero latency, the Gamepad and TV are in 1:1 sync (at least it appears that way). Great implementation by Nintendo. And the TV is very new.
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post #35 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 06:29 AM
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I was talking about input lag based on the type of TV you own. Plasma's are the best for gaming since it's 600hrtz and LCD/LED are generally a lot slower. Luckily I use both a nice monitor and I have a Sharp Aquos that was on the list of one of the quicker for this issue.
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post #36 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 12:01 PM
 
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"Plasma's are the best for gaming since it's 600hrtz and LCD/LED are generally a lot slower."

If you are going to talk about input lag, then get it right. "600hz" has nothing at all to do with input lag, and really has no effect on anything on the consumer level at all. The only reason you know that number is because of marketing. It has zero effect on your experience. Do not hold it up as if it does.

At this point, most TVs are sitting in the 33ms range for input lag, regardless of whether it is LCD or plasma inside. Occasionally you'll find something a bit quicker, but rarely. It all comes down to how much time is spent on internal processing, not the end display panel technology.

The Wii U Gamepad lags at roughly 16ms. Another way to put it is that it displays an image one frame earlier than your TV will get around to it. It's close enough to not matter. It can matter if you've got an older display or have some of the slower image processing turned on, pushing your input lag up in to the 50-83ms range. That is a topic for another thread though.
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post #37 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 09:14 PM
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DLJ, thanks for the intervention.

I have some questions.

After calibration, Blu Ray movies look incredible, TV as well, however:


1- Some games feel a bit blurry (current sharpness is down to 25 from 100)

2- Sometimes it looks a bit dark. I have Back light in 35, should I increase it to 60?

3- Should I use NORMAL instead of WARM when playing Wii U and PS3? Seems like the rest of the calibration upholds, I mean, the same color, tint, contrast an brightness seem to work on normal and warm...
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post #38 of 55 Old 01-27-2013, 08:12 AM
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I have heard of this.. which one exactly it is?
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post #39 of 55 Old 01-27-2013, 09:18 AM
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post #40 of 55 Old 01-28-2013, 10:54 AM
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I meant, the WOW bluray.. who makes this and what is the full name of the product?
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post #41 of 55 Old 01-28-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdoggie View Post

I meant, the WOW bluray.. who makes this and what is the full name of the product?

It's a Disney Blu-ray called Wow: World of Wonder.
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post #42 of 55 Old 01-28-2013, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdoggie View Post

I meant, the WOW bluray.. who makes this and what is the full name of the product?

This one:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1303667/disneys-wow-world-of-wonder-blu-ray-official-avsforum-review
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post #43 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

DLJ, thanks for the intervention.

I have some questions.

After calibration, Blu Ray movies look incredible, TV as well, however:


1- Some games feel a bit blurry (current sharpness is down to 25 from 100)

2- Sometimes it looks a bit dark. I have Back light in 35, should I increase it to 60?

3- Should I use NORMAL instead of WARM when playing Wii U and PS3? Seems like the rest of the calibration upholds, I mean, the same color, tint, contrast an brightness seem to work on normal and warm...

Hei Leo!,
congratulations for your callibration... i have used the blue filter too and it correct "some" but not the blue-purple problem entirely.

1- Disable all "enhacements". The sharpness should be 0 (if you increase that value, you are increasing the original sharpness source value, and it's not needed).

2- Download AVS 709 Bluray, set your video source to YCBCR and make the "basics". In black pattern test try to adjust black to keep bar number 17 flashing, after that, do the white clipping pattern to make sure you have correctly setted contrast and bright. IT's the "best" way to callibrate "good blacks and good whites":

Take the AVS 709 Blu-Ray in my Samsung Blu-Ray player fixed to YCBCR. I check each pattern from "basics" section:

- Black clipping: making that bar number 17 continue flashing adjusting the brightness (to mantain a good black level).
- APL clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flash and with the "black-grey" bars continue flahsing up to bar nº 19 (to mantain a good contrast and brigtness).
- White Clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flashing (all flash up to 253 with no decoloration or pinking or clipping). Re-check Black clipping and APL clipping to view if there are changes or everything goes well.
- Color Bars: making with the blue filter in STANDARD and MOVIE modes that all the bars keeps flashing equals and adjusting Hue and Sat to do that.
- Color Clipping: making that all the bars up to center number keeps flashning with no clipping in any color.


3- Use that you prefer, WARM 2 it's nearest to D65 but that "config" it's made for movies... personally, i prefer FULL RGB (0-255) for videogames in PS3 and LIMITED RGB (16-235) in WII U (because WII u it's fixed to limited) and i prefer WARM 2 but it's not "mandatory" with videogames.

@Europe, you can contact me in www.diariosdelanube.com
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post #44 of 55 Old 02-05-2013, 11:43 AM
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Thanks connector!

Will try to follow your recommendations.
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post #45 of 55 Old 02-06-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Thanks connector!

Will try to follow your recommendations.

Do you have fixed the blue purple?, it is lowered but not solved in My case.

@Europe, you can contact me in www.diariosdelanube.com
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post #46 of 55 Old 10-14-2013, 09:01 PM
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This blue-purple thing is starting to bug me now. Just picked up a Wii U with Wind Waker and I downloaded the old school Zeldas. I noticed some difference in blues and greens in Wind Waker, but while playing Zelda II (Link's adventure) the difference is down right distracting. I know it is way to purple on my tv. It doesn't match the gamepad image or how I remember Zelda looking from my childhood. I have owned my Samsung Ln52b750 for a few years now, and I have calibrated the heck out of it with the DVE disc and filters. I always thought I was close, but now I'm questioning all of it .mad.gif



I am tempted to order a Spyder calibration kit, but I would like to know if anyone has been successful yet. I assume the gamepad itself is not calibrated to D65, but I can't believe the tv is this different. I know that magic meter is not supposed to be purple.
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post #47 of 55 Old 10-14-2013, 11:03 PM
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Hmmm you gave me an idea... I have a X-Rite i1Display Pro, the AVS calibration files, and my laptop has Color HCFR. Since I don't think I can stream the videos to the Wii U I can convert the patterns to images and upload them. I'll use the Wii U browser to view them. Measure the Gamepad and post some graphs. I'm at work so maybe in the morning...

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post #48 of 55 Old 10-15-2013, 05:26 AM
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I measured the Wii U Gamepad.

I had the AVS HD 709 downloaded in mp4 format (http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration). I used Media Player Classic to save a screen shot as PNG of the full screen patterns. Uploaded each one to Imageshack and browsed my Wii U Gamepad to the URL's and measured. Wii U Gamepad brightness on 3.

Links to each pattern:
0 Black: http://imageshack.us/a/img202/3905/ckn5.png
10 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img713/5838/fde3.png
20 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img716/1840/ea0t.png
30 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img208/7558/q47l.png
40 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img513/1021/wem3.png
50 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img854/9487/fb5c.png
60 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img51/1279/xbsr.png
70 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img822/4220/9j7a.png
80 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img94/7463/otsl.png
90 Grey: http://imageshack.us/a/img36/3298/78dz.png
100 White: http://imageshack.us/a/img14/7269/f8gq.png
Red: http://imageshack.us/a/img12/9990/b7e7.png
Green: http://imageshack.us/a/img692/4426/scqj.png
Blue: http://imageshack.us/a/img854/7817/thsp.png
Yellow: http://imageshack.us/a/img24/1117/0vmw.png
Cyan: http://imageshack.us/a/img15/3241/p7b9.png
Magenta: http://imageshack.us/a/img22/1975/h3m4.png

Link to ColorHCFR data (Greyscale, Primary, and Secondary Colors):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09d10q6pqr0km0h/wii%20u%20tablet.chc

Luminance:

Higher res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7frnacftw48yspi/Wii%20U%20Gamepad%20-%20Luminance.png

Gamma:

Higher res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/13fr32kpgfput5c/Wii%20U%20Gamepad%20-%20Gamma.png

RGB Levels (Auto Adjusted):

Higher res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/acmwpsnr8rrgt4w/Wii%20U%20Gamepad%20-%20RGB.png

Color Temperature:

Higher res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9uykheypel616c/Wii%20U%20Gamepad%20-%20Color%20Temp.png

CIE Diagram:

Higher res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ligznd1jsvmfdcv/Wii%20U%20Gamepad%20-%20CIE.png

I hope that helps someone. smile.gif
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post #49 of 55 Old 10-15-2013, 06:41 PM
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I went ahead and ordered a Spyder3Tv. When it arrives and I get things calibrated, I'll post my comparison results. This will be my first "service menu" calibration, so wish me luck.
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post #50 of 55 Old 10-15-2013, 06:51 PM
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^^^ I believe the color difference will probably be more pronounced. I think the LCD on the Gamepad just sucks for Blue (too much blue and the wrong blues, I think the term is hue?) and Greens (right levels, wrong hue?). For comparison purposes here's my Mitsubishi 73640 DLP with the same patterns through the Wii U:

Link to the data:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7j08wcq6d40r1z/wii%20u%20mit%20dlp.chc

Luminance:

Higher Res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qs57ljs7914pz8a/Wii%20U%20DLP%20Luminance.png

Gamma:

Higher Res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j1vc797w6xdpcru/Wii%20U%20DLP%20Gamma.png

RGB Levels (not auto scaled):

Higher Res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qh29iz12v5d1wpe/Wii%20U%20DLP%20RBG.png

Color Temperature:

Higher Res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qpcbf1j7ymmmjs/Wii%20U%20DLP%20Color%20Temp.png

CIE Diagram:

Higher Res: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gtldgyt4l2j1l3/Wii%20U%20DLP%20CIE.png

Note with the RBG Levels I had to Auto Scale for some of the info to show with the Gamepad. The DLP I didn't need to.

Looks like the Wii U's gamma is weird. My HTPC is damn near flat on 2.2. The RGB Levels are tighter than on my HTPC though.

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post #51 of 55 Old 10-16-2013, 12:50 AM
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I went a little deeper. After reading a little bit of the Neogaf Trine 2 thread of people talking about the color differences it got me thinking on how the video compression might skew the colors as that's what Digital Foundry is claiming due to the viability of the real time streaming to the gamepad.

I took each PNG pattern into a single image just to make it easier to sample the RGB instead having to compress each color individually. Resized it to the Wii U Gamepad resolution (854 x 480) just because:

afwv.png

To simulate video compression I saved it as various degrees of JPG compression; 75, 50, 25, and 10 (lower number the worse the quality) in Photoshop. I used the eye dropper in PS to check the RGB values.

Here are the results (Note, I don't know if the AVS 709 source is off slightly on Green, Blue, Yellow, Cyan, and Magenta or Media Player Classic's conversion to PNG skewed them slightly but they're one number off as you'll see below):

PNG:

0 Black
R: 0
G: 0
B: 0

10 Grey
R: 24
G: 24
B: 24

20 Grey
R: 50
G: 50
B: 50

30 Grey
R: 76
G: 76
B: 76

40 Grey
R: 101
G: 101
B: 101

50 Grey
R: 127
G: 127
B: 127

60 Grey
R: 152
G: 152
B: 152

70 Grey
R: 178
G: 178
B: 178

80 Grey
R: 204
G: 204
B: 204

90 Grey
R: 229
G: 229
B: 229

100 White
R: 255
G: 255
B: 255

Red
R: 255
G: 0
B: 0

Green
R: 0
G: 255
B: 1

Blue
R: 1
G: 0
B: 255

Yellow
R: 254
G: 255
B: 0

Cyan
R: 0
G: 254
B: 255

Magenta
R: 255
G: 0
B: 254


JPG 75 was identical to the lossless PNG.


JPG 50 had the following differences (if a color is skipped it had no difference between the previous compression):

Red
R: 254
G: 0
B: 0

Blue
R: 1
G: 0
B: 254

Yellow
R: 254
G: 255
B: 1


JPG 25:

0 Black
R: 1
G: 1
B: 1

20 Grey
R: 49
G: 49
B: 49

30 Grey
R: 77
G: 77
B: 77

40 Grey
R: 100
G: 100
B: 100

50 Grey
R: 128
G: 128
B: 128

60 Grey
R: 151
G: 151
B: 151

70 Grey
R: 179
G: 179
B: 179

80 Grey
R: 205
G: 205
B: 205

90 Grey
R: 230
G: 230
B: 230

Red
R: 255
G: 1
B: 1

Green
R: 0
G: 253
B: 2

Blue
R: 2
G: 1
B: 255

Cyan
R: 2
G: 254
B: 255

Magenta
R: 254
G: 1
B: 252


JPG 10:

10 Grey
R: 23
G: 23
B: 23

20 Grey
R: 51
G: 51
B: 51

30 Grey
R: 76
G: 76
B: 76

40 Grey
R: 101
G: 101
B: 101

60 Grey
R: 153
G: 153
B: 153

70 Grey
R: 178
G: 178
B: 178

80 Grey
R: 203
G: 203
B: 203

90 Grey
R: 228
G: 228
B: 228

Red
R: 254
G: 0
B: 2

Green
R: 0
G: 255
B: 2

Blue
R: 2
G: 2
B: 255

Cyan
R: 1
G: 252
B: 255

Magenta
R: 255
G: 0
B: 255


So yeah it does look like compression does skew the color but very slightly. So either Nintendo invested in some kind of video compression that skews colors really bad or the LCD isn't that great. My money is on the LCD being not that great...

So I'd have to imagine getting your TV to replicate the Wii U Gamepad's LCD colors would be a lesson in driving yourself nuts. Just between the differences in that Gamma curve (it's not supposed to be a curve) and the skew of the CIE Diagram... yeah just try to get used to it. smile.gif

Also I think there was a patch for Trine 2 that fixed some of the colors on the Gamepad and someone mentioned Darksiders 2 as having an option to change the Gamma on the Gamepad along with a separate one for the TV it appears it's up to each developer to try to match and/or compensate the Gamepad's colors vs that of a HDTV. In theory I suppose each developer should have their displays calibrated but is it just the displays they create the content on but not the ones they test the content with?

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post #52 of 55 Old 10-16-2013, 02:43 PM
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Thats a GREAT analysis.

I have learn to just accept the gamepad colors as they "are". The minute I began doing this, It improved my enjoyment of the games.

Will confirm this though: WOW is a great and quick solution to calibrate any TV. I am sort of a "fidelity" nut and I like to play the games on their original consoles and TVs that were made on that era (I have all Sony, Nintendo, Sega and Microsoft consoles).

All of my TVs were calibrated with WOW (Hdtv and regular CRT), the difference is huge in the before-after image quality.
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post #53 of 55 Old 10-16-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post

Also I think there was a patch for Trine 2 that fixed some of the colors on the Gamepad and someone mentioned Darksiders 2 as having an option to change the Gamma on the Gamepad along with a separate one for the TV it appears it's up to each developer to try to match and/or compensate the Gamepad's colors vs that of a HDTV. In theory I suppose each developer should have their displays calibrated but is it just the displays they create the content on but not the ones they test the content with?

I have that patch and it certainly improves the overall image quality (its sharper now, somehow the colors seem more vivid, still the same anti-aliasing, etc). However, blue still looks more blue than the TV.

After all of this time. How can our eyes PERCEIVE the Gamepad cheap lcd or compression-generated blue, as a better representation of the color than the expensive HDTVs?
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post #54 of 55 Old 10-16-2013, 09:31 PM
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Just to clear things up, I'm not trying to match my tv to the gamepad's colors. I kinda figured that the gamepad would not be correct. What I'm saying is I know my TV is off (unless the wii u sends an off signal to the tv). The bad colors are most prevalent in old school games. If you look at my tv in the pic I posted, the sky is not supposed to be that color. I've tried Zelda, Metroid, and F zero and they all have purple coloring in the blues on my TV. The greens are also kind of neon-y. The gamepad just helped me realize this.

On my TV, the color is like this:


And I believe they are supposed to be like this:


At least those are the colors I remember from every tv I ever played Zelda on, lol. I guess I'll find out when I calibrate my tv. At least then I'll know for sure my tv is correct.
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post #55 of 55 Old 10-16-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

I have that patch and it certainly improves the overall image quality (its sharper now, somehow the colors seem more vivid, still the same anti-aliasing, etc). However, blue still looks more blue than the TV.

After all of this time. How can our eyes PERCEIVE the Gamepad cheap lcd or compression-generated blue, as a better representation of the color than the expensive HDTVs?

It's brighter on the gamepad so your eyes are drawn to it more. Just like how they sell HDTV's in the store. The expensive ones have the brightness cranked because they found out that brighter TV's sell more. Colors change when the light level changes. Eyes can be tricked and our brains are wired to notice red and bright things more... the thing is we get used to the different colors. When I first got my colorimeter I calibrated all my displays for D65 (also 6500K) white (it supposed to represent the white you'd see on a clear sunny day at noon) and everything looked wrong. It felt WAY too warm. Turns out I was used to much higher temperatures of white like D75 and D80 but after a while you get used to it. Now anything other than D65 looks wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndopp View Post

On my TV, the color is like this:

This is the correct coloring. I loaded up a ROM (don't hate hehe) took a screenshot and used the Photoshop eyedropper to check the RGB verses this image and the other one. The other one was way off. This one nearly spot on with maybe one number off on the RGB. Like most people growing up your TV color and other settings were probably eye balled by the owner and the incorrect colors have been seared into your memory. :/ When I was a kid I had some headphones and I didn't know the Left and Right drivers were accidentally swapped at the factory. I got used to the wrong sound. When I found out about it and swapped the drivers it took a while for me to get used to the reversed stereo image on my favorite songs.

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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