WII U blue color representation it's different in my tv than in my wii u gamepad - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 12-30-2012, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello!,
i have a question about WII U. I'm using a WII U with a correctly callibrated Samsung LED TV via HDMI but i have a question:

i see the blue color representation of my "WII U Navigator" icon different in WII U Game PAD than my TV, in my TV in Movie Mode (or another modes) it's more "violet" or "purple" than in the WII U Game Pad (in other colors this "issue" doesn't happens)... Or the Sky from Nintendoland it's blue but different blue (more purple or violet) than in the WII U PAD, not much but it present. There's someone else who has seen the same?.

Sorry for my english, i'm trying to explain something that it's difficult to express...

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post #2 of 55 Old 12-30-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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If your display is properly calibrated, then it is likely warmer than the Wii U screen. This would result in whites looking a little redder, and blues shifting a little purple. Really, it's just the comparison of the two that throws off human vision a bit. There's nothing wrong in either case. The Wii U pad just runs a little "cooler", or more blue. In which subjectively white will look more blue and red will shift a bit more purple.
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post #3 of 55 Old 12-30-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

If your display is properly calibrated, then it is likely warmer than the Wii U screen. This would result in whites looking a little redder, and blues shifting a little purple. Really, it's just the comparison of the two that throws off human vision a bit. There's nothing wrong in either case. The Wii U pad just runs a little "cooler", or more blue. In which subjectively white will look more blue and red will shift a bit more purple.

Yes, it's callibrated with the help of another forum members in Display Callibration forum, it's nearest to D65. But if i change to standard and Dynamic mode (with more blue than red) or another mode (not only in movie mode), the "light blue" it's blue but purplish. This is because if i try to reduce "red" using warm 1 or indecreasing red in WB the result it's far from D65. I think, the colorspace in the Wii U gamepad it's different than in my TV (Wii U game pad uses a kind of compression that could be changing a little this type of blue, because another colors are ok). Then there's nothing wrong, don't you?.

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post #4 of 55 Old 01-07-2013, 12:36 PM
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Yeah I noticed that too, everything looks similar, except the blue.





On my TV, the gamepad shows blue colors more "blue", the TV shows them ...blue-purpleish
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post #5 of 55 Old 01-07-2013, 06:22 PM
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I guess nintendo should start making TVs?

WiiU: moothemagiccow

PSN: moothemagiccow (duh)

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post #6 of 55 Old 01-08-2013, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Yeah I noticed that too, everything looks similar, except the blue.


On my TV, the gamepad shows blue colors more "blue", the TV shows them ...blue-purpleish

We are not alone... there are some threads in another forums with people with the same "issue", look at this forum:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45587538&postcount=275 or this http://www.gamefaqs.com/wii-u/631516-wii-u/answers?qid=342289

and check this:

"Digital Foundry:

Compression is essential owing to the sheer volume of data. A raw 24-bit RGB stream with 854x480 resolution at 60FPS would require a 72MB/s transfer rate - way too high for WiFi. As we noted in our original Wii U review, colour space on the transmitted image has been downscaled significantly, reducing base image bandwidth to 36MB/s. Employing compression technology such as h.264 could reduce that by a factor of ten with little discernible loss of quality. The direct connection may even open the door to the less computationally intensive MJPEG compression: it's often deployed for applications where latency is a key issue and the 802.11n wireless standard should be able to sustain bandwidth for a 480p screen running at 60Hz."

I think that Nintendo should improve the blue color representation so that didn't change to purple.

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post #7 of 55 Old 01-10-2013, 06:55 AM
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Actually, my Gamepad looks more "blue" than my TV, no matter what I change on the TV settings. On the TV the hue tends to go to the "purplish" side.
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post #8 of 55 Old 01-11-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Actually, my Gamepad looks more "blue" than my TV, no matter what I change on the TV settings. On the TV the hue tends to go to the "purplish" side.
Exactly,
i have the same problem, no matter what i change (and believe me, i have done all the AVS 709 Basics to callibrate my tv). I have proobed to change the WB balance, the hue, the sat, Gamma, Contrast, etc...

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post #9 of 55 Old 01-11-2013, 11:17 AM
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Weird eh?

A small cheap screen having "bluer blues" than our expensive tvs.

Why would it appear more "blue" to us? Whats the correct representation of the blue?
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post #10 of 55 Old 01-11-2013, 11:56 AM
 
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I already explained this back in post number two.

"On the TV the hue tends to go to the "purplish" side."

Blue shifted warm subjectively looks purple.

"I think that Nintendo should improve the blue color representation so that didn't change to purple."

All they are doing is using a lower resolution color map over the grayscale base. This is the same thing that MPEG2 compression on DVDs do. In neither case does the color actually change, it just isn't as sharp. This is even perfectly fine, as humans are decent at detecting lighting changes (grayscale) but pretty crap at viewing color.
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post #11 of 55 Old 01-12-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Weird eh?

A small cheap screen having "bluer blues" than our expensive tvs.

Why would it appear more "blue" to us? Whats the correct representation of the blue?

I don't know really but it's weird, yes... small panel vs our expensive tvs... you are right....

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post #12 of 55 Old 01-12-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

I already explained this back in post number two.

"On the TV the hue tends to go to the "purplish" side."

Blue shifted warm subjectively looks purple.

"I think that Nintendo should improve the blue color representation so that didn't change to purple."

All they are doing is using a lower resolution color map over the grayscale base. This is the same thing that MPEG2 compression on DVDs do. In neither case does the color actually change, it just isn't as sharp. This is even perfectly fine, as humans are decent at detecting lighting changes (grayscale) but pretty crap at viewing color.

Interesting explanation darklordjames,
but why they are using a lower resolution color map over the greyscale and don't use in tv the same color map?, it's like there are no solution to make those "blues" as "blues" like the gamepad... i hate the difference and don't like purple for certain "blues"

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post #13 of 55 Old 01-12-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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"and don't use in tv the same color map?"

The Wii is spitting out the same color to each device. It is then the device's job to represent color. Neither display is showing it to you wrong, they are just of different color temperatures. In concerns to color, humans are terrible at detecting color resolution, but super-picky about differences in hue when there are two examples sitting in front of them. When only one example is present, we are really good at subjectively shifting color in our brains to the expected values.

In example, a 6500K white-calibrated TV is kind of red. After looking at it for a couple of minutes though we decide that the "pink-white" is baseline white and everything else shifts from that. The purple-blue then internally becomes blue, super-red becomes normal-red, etc. In example #2 a 9300K white-calibrated TV is pretty blue. Again, stare at it for a minute or three and we decide that the "blue-white" is baseline white and our brains shift colors accordingly. Super-blue becomes regular-blue, purple-red becomes normal-red, etc.

Saturation would also be related. Most people have saturation cranked up way too high on their TV. The result is that there is simply too much color layered on the grayscale image. A properly calibrated TV has less saturation than all of our portable devices though. On my Wii U display, saturation is a bit too high and it's color temperature is probably in the 7500K range, or medium-white. My main display is properly cranked down in saturation, and is also set to a medium-white temperature of ~7500K as I play a bunch of games and don't really care about proper 6500K film calibration. The result is that color temperature matches up pretty well between my displays, in that blue looks about the same between them. The over-saturation of the Wii U tablet means that blue is "bluer" though, in that there is just more color present.

So, if you guys want your displays to match, play with your Temperature setting on your TV. The options are usually Warm, Normal, Cool, with Normal as the likely close choice. Then play with Saturation on your TV, probably cranking it up a bit if your display is calibrated, or cranking it down a bit if your settings are on whatever it came out of the box as.

Or you can just say "screw it!" as nothing is wrong and therefore there is nothing to fix. smile.gif


"but why they are using a lower resolution color map over the greyscale"

Again, humans suck at color resolution. There are just not that many cones in our eyes. As such, a great way to save bandwidth on video compression is to use a quarter-resolution color image layered on top of a full-resolution greyscale image. You've spent the last 20 years staring at quarter-res-color digital compression. The Wii U is doing nothing new in that regard.
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post #14 of 55 Old 01-12-2013, 11:32 PM
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Darklordjames:

WOW.

Thank you so much for that explanation .

I don't have a saturation option though, what other names are used for it?
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post #15 of 55 Old 01-13-2013, 02:58 AM
 
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I seem to recall JVC using the term Color for saturation controls. Just find the one that when you crank it down the image become progressively grayer, with zero being a completely grayscale image.
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post #16 of 55 Old 01-13-2013, 08:36 AM
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Thank you, will try with color
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post #17 of 55 Old 01-13-2013, 08:50 AM
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Color did not do the trick, but I switched to normal, and everything's look more closely now, example:



My current settings:

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post #18 of 55 Old 01-14-2013, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"and don't use in tv the same color map?"

The Wii is spitting out the same color to each device. It is then the device's job to represent color. Neither display is showing it to you wrong, they are just of different color temperatures. In concerns to color, humans are terrible at detecting color resolution, but super-picky about differences in hue when there are two examples sitting in front of them. When only one example is present, we are really good at subjectively shifting color in our brains to the expected values.

In example, a 6500K white-calibrated TV is kind of red. After looking at it for a couple of minutes though we decide that the "pink-white" is baseline white and everything else shifts from that. The purple-blue then internally becomes blue, super-red becomes normal-red, etc. In example #2 a 9300K white-calibrated TV is pretty blue. Again, stare at it for a minute or three and we decide that the "blue-white" is baseline white and our brains shift colors accordingly. Super-blue becomes regular-blue, purple-red becomes normal-red, etc.

Saturation would also be related. Most people have saturation cranked up way too high on their TV. The result is that there is simply too much color layered on the grayscale image. A properly calibrated TV has less saturation than all of our portable devices though. On my Wii U display, saturation is a bit too high and it's color temperature is probably in the 7500K range, or medium-white. My main display is properly cranked down in saturation, and is also set to a medium-white temperature of ~7500K as I play a bunch of games and don't really care about proper 6500K film calibration. The result is that color temperature matches up pretty well between my displays, in that blue looks about the same between them. The over-saturation of the Wii U tablet means that blue is "bluer" though, in that there is just more color present.

So, if you guys want your displays to match, play with your Temperature setting on your TV. The options are usually Warm, Normal, Cool, with Normal as the likely close choice. Then play with Saturation on your TV, probably cranking it up a bit if your display is calibrated, or cranking it down a bit if your settings are on whatever it came out of the box as.

Or you can just say "screw it!" as nothing is wrong and therefore there is nothing to fix. smile.gif


"but why they are using a lower resolution color map over the greyscale"

Again, humans suck at color resolution. There are just not that many cones in our eyes. As such, a great way to save bandwidth on video compression is to use a quarter-resolution color image layered on top of a full-resolution greyscale image. You've spent the last 20 years staring at quarter-res-color digital compression. The Wii U is doing nothing new in that regard.

Thank you again, i have my tv callibrated to 6500k with correct color saturation. but if i use another modes with 7500K i can't get the same "blue"... it's weird... no matter what color temperature i set, certain "blues" looks more "purple-blue" than "blue"... on my Samsung TV or in my Sony HMZ-T1 (less in the Sony HMZ-T1 but practically the same).

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post #19 of 55 Old 01-14-2013, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Color did not do the trick, but I switched to normal, and everything's look more closely now, example:



My current settings:


Not in my case.. blue continues little purple... different "blue-purples" when i change between cinema-standard-Dynamic-natural but "blue-purple" i have the saturation correct in each case... Leo, do you have the same situation?

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post #20 of 55 Old 01-14-2013, 10:04 AM
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Not in my case.. blue continues little purple... different "blue-purples" when i change between cinema-standard-Dynamic-natural but "blue-purple" i have the saturation correct in each case... Leo, do you have the same situation?

Yeah I do, after my post I played for 1 more hour and ended up switching back to WARM. All other colors are very similar - exact, except the blue.

My WOW disc should arrive this week, maybe with it I can calibrate my TV to the best settings...blue or not.
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post #21 of 55 Old 01-14-2013, 10:16 AM
 
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WOW is a great disc. When using it, set contrast so that white is as bright as you would ever want it to be. Initially, set it lower than you would think you'd want it, then spend a couple days getting used to it. People tend to have their displays cranked up way too bright. smile.gif Also, if you game a lot you may want to go with Normal temperature instead of Cool or Warm. Games are almost never developed on calibrated displays, so default Normal gets you closer to the intended color. We game and watch television series 70% of the time here, with film the other 30%. I've found over the years that Normal temp makes more sense for that mix.

Another thought. The Wii U gamepad display setting have brightness and power saving settings. Power Save Set to On is distinctly a different color than with it off. I have power save on and it seems to shift redder. Go give fiddle with it and see what you like.

This could also come down to different sources for different gamepad displays. In example, my iPad 3 and my girl's iPad 3 are both from day one. My display is considerably warmer than hers though. I suspect that one display is from Samsung and the other one is from LG or Sharp or someone.
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post #22 of 55 Old 01-14-2013, 11:41 AM
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Thanks for the reply DLJ

I will try with those settings in the Gamepad, and see how it goes.

I have also noticed that when you connect it to the ac power, the screens goes one further level in brightness.
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post #23 of 55 Old 01-15-2013, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Yeah I do, after my post I played for 1 more hour and ended up switching back to WARM. All other colors are very similar - exact, except the blue.

My WOW disc should arrive this week, maybe with it I can calibrate my TV to the best settings...blue or not.

Yes, always i get back to "movie mode" warm 2 or standard with warm1 (normal or dynamic are very "blue" to me)... but i can't get the same blue as the gamepad and i have callibrated with AVS709.

Leo i have noticed that you have your color very high (65 in your last screen-shot), when i have callibrated my color, hue / sat with AVS 709 in standard mode was 32 with hue/sat (tint) 48-52 in movie mode was 48 with hue/sat 52-48 (tint) but my tv it's a Samsung... i don't know in a JVC. Anyway, no matter that you do, callibrated or non callibrated those wii u gamepad "blues" are "purple or blue-purple" in my Samsung or in my Sony. Maybe if they use FULL RGB instead LIMITED will help (but hurts the bandwith to send data between WII U and WII U gamepad). And watch out with tint, you have +5 and if +5 it's "more red", you could get the blues more purple with the mix of blue and +5 red. But, if you have played with those values and don't have founded changes with the "blue-purples", you can't get great changes even callirating it well, so don't worry about. The AVS709 it's a free forum disk to callibrate well the tv --> http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration i've used it with bluray and it's great (but videogames use different callibration, because those disk are made for YCBCR and videogames use to play with RGB limited or full).

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post #24 of 55 Old 01-15-2013, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

WOW is a great disc. When using it, set contrast so that white is as bright as you would ever want it to be. Initially, set it lower than you would think you'd want it, then spend a couple days getting used to it. People tend to have their displays cranked up way too bright. smile.gif Also, if you game a lot you may want to go with Normal temperature instead of Cool or Warm. Games are almost never developed on calibrated displays, so default Normal gets you closer to the intended color. We game and watch television series 70% of the time here, with film the other 30%. I've found over the years that Normal temp makes more sense for that mix.

Another thought. The Wii U gamepad display setting have brightness and power saving settings. Power Save Set to On is distinctly a different color than with it off. I have power save on and it seems to shift redder. Go give fiddle with it and see what you like.

This could also come down to different sources for different gamepad displays. In example, my iPad 3 and my girl's iPad 3 are both from day one. My display is considerably warmer than hers though. I suspect that one display is from Samsung and the other one is from LG or Sharp or someone.

Yes, you are right with contrast i have it at 95 but my subcontrast at 128 to get all the IREs from 16 to 255... it's unnecesary but i note that i can see the movies and videogames very well with that configuration.
You are right with "normal" or "standard" mode for video games but in my case, it's like the WII U game pad screen was configured for something between "WARM 1" (less D65) and "COOL" and i don't have nothing like that... for example, if i set in my tv movie mode with blue gain up to 38 and blue offset to 30 i get a little approach to WII U Game pad "like" but not the same.

Anyway, i think that is the difference between panels and maybe not an issue, dont you? (panels + compression + another things = differents "blues").

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post #25 of 55 Old 01-15-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by connector View Post

Yes, always i get back to "movie mode" warm 2 or standard with warm1 (normal or dynamic are very "blue" to me)... but i can't get the same blue as the gamepad and i have callibrated with AVS709.

Leo i have noticed that you have your color very high (65 in your last screen-shot), when i have callibrated my color, hue / sat with AVS 709 in standard mode was 32 with hue/sat (tint) 48-52 in movie mode was 48 with hue/sat 52-48 (tint) but my tv it's a Samsung... i don't know in a JVC. Anyway, no matter that you do, callibrated or non callibrated those wii u gamepad "blues" are "purple or blue-purple" in my Samsung or in my Sony. Maybe if they use FULL RGB instead LIMITED will help (but hurts the bandwith to send data between WII U and WII U gamepad). And watch out with tint, you have +5 and if +5 it's "more red", you could get the blues more purple with the mix of blue and +5 red. But, if you have played with those values and don't have founded changes with the "blue-purples", you can't get great changes even callirating it well, so don't worry about. The AVS709 it's a free forum disk to callibrate well the tv --> http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration i've used it with bluray and it's great (but videogames use different callibration, because those disk are made for YCBCR and videogames use to play with RGB limited or full).

Well, I bought this TV 2 weeks ago and I have calibrated it by eye, and following some recommendations on this same forum...

However it wont be calibrated until my WOW blu ray arrives.

I will try to keep on using NORMAL for games, and Warm for netflix + TV, it makes sense, since games are not developed in "cinema calibrated hdtvs"
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post #26 of 55 Old 01-15-2013, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Well, I bought this TV 2 weeks ago and I have calibrated it by eye, and following some recoendations on this same forum...

However it wont be calibrated until my WOW blu ray arrives.

I will tyr to keep on using NORMAL for games, and Warm for netflix + tv, it makes sense, games are more like "developed using monitors instead of tvs".

Ok, wonderfull. games are better using FULL RGB than LIMITED, WARM it's very near to the developer wants to show in WII U (because it's a little warm). But remember for movie WARM 2 or nearest to get near D65. Anyway, i think taht there are no solution for blue like blue-purple, don't you?

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post #27 of 55 Old 01-15-2013, 08:52 AM
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Yeah, I think we wont be able to fix that blue hue, no matter how we calibrate our TV's.

I do remember I set up something to LIMITED in my PS3 (following this forum recommendation), should I switch it back to full? I don't remember the setting though.
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post #28 of 55 Old 01-16-2013, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Yeah, I think we wont be able to fix that blue hue, no matter how we calibrate our TV's.

I do remember I set up something to LIMITED in my PS3 (following this forum recommendation), should I switch it back to full? I don't remember the setting though.

yes, i think that this blue-purple can't be fixed...

I'll make you a little "summary" about limited and full:


RGB: Use it for videogames and PC:

a) if the source send 0-255 --> FULL RGB --> IN TV you must use NORMAL
b) if the source send 16-235 --> LIMITED RGB --> IN TV must use LOW

FOR WII U --> actually it's fixed to LIMITED RGB, so use LOW.
FOR PS3 --> use that you prefer, but always if you set FULL RGB in PS3 use NORMAL in your TV and if you set LIMITED RGB use LOW in your TV.

MOVIES: settings to view movies:

- YCBCR in the source (there you don't have to set low or normal, that's only in RGB) and if it's possible in the receiver (my bluray for example it's set to YCBCR and my TV automatically receive it).

FOR PS3 --> Set YCBCR for movies, recommended MOVIE MODE in the TV.
FOR WII U --> it's set to limited RGB that value it's closest to YCBCR specs. so you don't need to set nothing (actually there isn't nothing to change between rgb or ycbcr in that console).

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post #29 of 55 Old 01-16-2013, 08:11 AM
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Thanks for the explanation Connector.

So I basically don't touch anything on the Wii U and use Full RGB on the PS3?
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post #30 of 55 Old 01-16-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leo-Tyrant View Post

Thanks for the explanation Connector.

So I basically don't touch anything on the Wii U and use Full RGB on the PS3?

More or less:

In WII U --> RGB Limited.

In PS3 --> the option that you prefer or FULL or LIMITED but your tv MUST be for FULL-"normal" and for LIMITED -"low". I prefer FULL RGB for videogames (they have developed with those values between 0-255), but it's a preference not a "must". For Movies in System Settings set the bluray to output the video with YCBCR and set your TV to MOVIE MODE to view correctly 16-235 and the more "closest" to D65. And use a good callibration disk like AVS709 to get a good basic "callibration" for movies.

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