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post #2341 of 2429 Old 10-07-2014, 09:00 PM
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The thing is though, I can flip it on eBay for more than I'm paying. I'm trying to find a downside here lol. I guess my main concern is spoiling my first proper oculus experience, spending more time setting it up than actually using it and/or puking my brains out all over my rig. But I keep hearing how awesome it is, I think it's just something I finally need to see for myself.
I'm very jealous. But keep us posted. Your voice 7 opinion carries considerable weight on this. I'm still holding out for the consumer model.
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post #2342 of 2429 Old 10-07-2014, 09:04 PM
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I'll give you one piece of advice coming from a large screen 3d projector....... DO NOT drink in celebration of getting it working until you become accustomed to the 3D motion effects. Bad things will result.
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post #2343 of 2429 Old 10-07-2014, 11:20 PM
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Man...what a disappointment on almost every level.

I hate to say it, but if this is the state of VR in 2014, we're probably years away from a consumer release, and probably a few more years still from any mainstream acceptance on even the most basic level. This is SO SO FAR from any sort of reasonably acceptable experience it's not even funny.

First...the hardware. Sure, this is just a dev kit, but this thing needs another few years in the oven. If there's any one thing that pulls you right out of the experience, it's the hardware itself. It is so incredibly heavy on your face that you will never forget it's there - it needs to weigh no more than a tenth of what it does now. It's like strapping a brick to your face. And the wires. Oh my god the wires. You cant even turn your head slightly before you feel the tension of the wires, they're getting caught on stuff, and there is so damn many of them running every which way possible. There's a wire running to your HDMI port, which splits off to a USB port. Another wire runs to the camera. And the camera has it's own USB cable too. Oh, and you wanted sound? How about another wire for headphones. If for even a moment you forget that there's a lunchbox strapped to your face as you turn your head, one of the fifteen thousand wires coming off this thing will be sure to remind you. Even just getting it strapped onto your face is incredibly difficult, it never feels like it's on correctly.

The screen is also so far from acceptable. I don't think anything less than a 4K panel in there is going to suffice. All you can see is this giant screen door of pixels. I know the newest prototype is an improvement, but there's no way it's good enough because this is already so far off. The lenses make it even worse - it already always feels like there's a screen two inches from your face (because there is!), but if you look even slightly off center there's such a ridiculous amount of blur and aberration that you may as well not bother. You can technically adjust the distance of the lenses, but it barely makes a difference, and the knob to adjust it is so ridiculously stiff that you basically need a screwdriver to do it. Honestly, unless you spend your days in a drug induced stupor, there's nothing about this setup that's even remotely convincing that you're looking out into some vast virtual world. It's a god damn cell phone screen strapped to your face, and you'll know it. Maybe that's why I didn't have any motion sickness, because the whole experience was so laughable that I cant imagine anyone actually being convinced for more that a fleeting moment. Beyond that, there is a MAJOR problem in the fact that you cant see anything from the real world while these goggles are strapped on. A demo tells me to hit the R key and I can't do anything but laugh, because I have absolutely no idea where the hell it is. I just put my hands forward, press a button and pray I hit the right one. I want to turn the volume down...where the hell is the knob? I have to blindly reach out like an idiot in front of me. Whatever you do, don't use this thing anywhere near a beverage.

If there's any good content, I can't find it. I swear to you, I looked up a list of the 40 best oculus experiences, and calling it amateur hour is being too kind. Literally everything is unity engine and feels like a student project. It's by far the worst collection of garbage I could have ever imagined, and if this is the best we have right now, its going to take years before there's anything even approaching something you genuinely want to spend time with. There was literally only one demo out that I found even mildly intriguing, and the point was basically to hold down the two control keys and try not to move. Then all sorts of silly stuff happened - bees flied around, a raptor growled in my face (trust me, this sounds way cooler in writing, it looked like an n64 game) - but it was the only thing that gave me that feeling of "presence" I kept hearing about. I was able to look around, move my head and it all tracked perfectly, I could literally stand up and lean over the back of the monitor...it was crazy. And since the game knows youre holding the two keys in front of you, you actually see your arms and it just sort of clicks in your brain. That was the only moment where I felt that the promise of VR was even remotely achieved, but it was also so contrived that I'm not sure if anything else but a demo where youre literally sitting at a desk is going to have that same effect. Beyond that, it was all garbage, I swear to you some of it was intentionally trying to make me vomit. VR promises to take you anywhere, but right now the only places you can go are places that I guarantee you won't want to go.

The software/drivers and UI is excusable to some degree because that feels fixable in the near term, but suffice it to say that for now, it's as if it's actively trying to prevent you from playing a game. The preferred option is to treat the rift as an accessory and have stuff directly address it....but the only time that worked was in the setup panel itself. All the rest of the time, you basically have to set it up as a second monitor - except the rift is hardly a monitor. You have to set it up in portrait mode for the image to be right side up, but you still only see half the desktop with each eye, and thats honestly being generous, really all you can see is a tiny little fraction of the desktop. If you want to know what it's like, take your phone and literally hold it two inches from your face. It's that ridiculous. Ideally you launch a game on your monitor and it automatically plays on the rift, but that almost never works either. I honestly have no idea what the proper method is, generally it feels like it's actively resisting your attempts to actually get the rift game onto the rift itself. God help you if you lose a window on the rift, especially the control panel you need to disable the rift and undo this nightmare. More time that I'd like to admit was spent just trying to find the god damn mouse cursor.

So yeah, it's basically almost completely terrible in nearly every way. I suppose it's still possible that next year there will be a super light and ultra high resolution wireless rift that come with a well designed UI, works as expected in an intuitive way, and there's tons of awesome VR specific content...but I'm no longer hopeful for that. I was super excited, I was ready to love everything about it and put up with a little hassle, I was a huge fan of 3D gaming while it was a thing - but this is ten times more hassle and a far worse experience than that ever was. If that couldn't get off the ground because of glasses, configuration hassles and extreme performance demands, honestly this thing has no chance in the world. I swear they better have something magical up their sleeves that they're holding back, because if the consumer experience resembles this in even the slightest way it's going to crash and burn. I truly believe they can still fix all these things with enough time and make it awesome - for those few moments where it all came together, it was genuinely awesome...but I think it's going to take a long time, and I'm not sure it's good enough until then to survive that long. I want to be wrong about that...I really do. But man, this was just awful.

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post #2344 of 2429 Old 10-07-2014, 11:36 PM
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Told you.

Btw. How'd you get it so fast? You seemed to have it as soon as you ordered it.
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post #2345 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 12:38 AM
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I play the hell out of Elite Dangerous, I can't wait for a consumer release to take advantage of it with this game.
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post #2346 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 01:36 AM
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Told you.

Btw. How'd you get it so fast? You seemed to have it as soon as you ordered it.
delivery drone..?

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post #2347 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 05:05 AM
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Told you.

Btw. How'd you get it so fast? You seemed to have it as soon as you ordered it.
Craigslist.

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post #2348 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 05:06 AM
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I play the hell out of Elite Dangerous, I can't wait for a consumer release to take advantage of it with this game.
Thats the game that the guy I bought it from told me to check out. But I'm not paying $75 for a beta, they must be out of their god damn minds.

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post #2349 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 10:40 AM
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Is the samsung phone headset out yet? I'd try that before oculus.

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post #2350 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 10:57 AM
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Is the samsung phone headset out yet? I'd try that before oculus.
Not that I know of but it requires a Note4 for use which is also not out yet.

Why I can't use my Note3 is ... a shame.

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post #2351 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 02:52 PM
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It will be interesting to see how the Sony VR set does. That sucks to hear it is so bad. I was hoping it wouldn't be that bad. Sounds like people that wear glasses screwed as well.

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post #2352 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 03:05 PM
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Thats the game that the guy I bought it from told me to check out. But I'm not paying $75 for a beta, they must be out of their god damn minds.
Yeah it was painful to pull the trigger on that for sure, but with my stick/throttle, astro's cranked, and the lights off it's like I'm actually flying through space. I can't even imagine it with VR.
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post #2353 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 03:35 PM
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It will be interesting to see how the Sony VR set does. That sucks to hear it is so bad. I was hoping it wouldn't be that bad. Sounds like people that wear glasses screwed as well.
I'm trying some more stuff out and its starting to grow on me a little bit. I'm slowly getting past how horrible everything around it is and trying to appreciate the potential, and I guess I can see it. They've just got a lot of work to do to solve all that nonsense.

I heard alien isolation supports it though, so I may need your assistance with that.
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post #2354 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 03:55 PM
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I'm trying some more stuff out and its starting to grow on me a little bit. I'm slowly getting past how horrible everything around it is and trying to appreciate the potential, and I guess I can see it. They've just got a lot of work to do to solve all that nonsense.

I heard alien isolation supports it though, so I may need your assistance with that.
Sure send me OR and I'll let you know how it works

Seriously let me when you want to get things set up again and I'll help you out. I'll be home tomorrow. Off to a Timbers game tonight which means Pizza and Beer and then AMH: Freak Show when I get home so I will not be on the PC much, most likely you will be in bed.

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post #2355 of 2429 Old 10-08-2014, 10:37 PM
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Man, it's really starting to grow on me. Got some suggestions from the oculus subreddit about how to set certain things up properly and some suggestions for some far more impressive content. I'm slowly starting to feel the magic. I still have major concerns about the practicality of it, but I can see now that what it really needs is content with real production value and a UI tuned specifically for VR. Developers seriously need to relearn how they make games in order to do this properly - certain things lead to absolutely instant motion sickness.

I definitely have to say though that the head tracking is absolutely incredible. You can literally twist your head around an object and look it from all angles. Like you can walk to the edge of a cliff and literally stretch your head over it, and the sense of height really hits you and you feel a chill down your spine. Even just the feel of walking up to a wall and peeking over it is so absolutely dead on that it completely sells it. I also managed to find a demo with genuine HRTF 3D audio and it brought it all together...for the first time I've ever experienced in a game there was literally no question in my mind where the sound was coming from, it was absolutely phenomenal. Head tracking is really what's been missing from 3D audio ever since the 90s, and it's really something you need to hear for yourself. I mean you could walk right up to a fountain, bend down and lean over and put one ear right up to it, and it was absolutely and utterly convincing on a level far beyond the visuals. You can close your eyes and you'd have absolutely zero problem pointing directly at where the sound is coming from, behind you, below you, right under your ear....wherever. I swear to you it is absolutely magical.

There really is a night and day difference in experience between the ****** demos I experienced yesterday and some of the stuff I saw and heard today. So I've got hope again....now I just want to see some games use it properly, and that's going to be way harder than it sounds. I don't expect that you'll want to play any sort of hacked on support for older titles. Unless they take the time to do it right, it's going to be terrible. Anything that's just slightly off makes you queasy instantaneously. Playing a FPS was fine even with mouse and keyboard, I had no problems with motion sickness as long as I was in control and everything happened as expected. There was this one game that was this vast open world, and I could shoot out these little grappling hooks and swing around the world...it was absolutely awesome and there wasnt a hint of sickness because I was in complete control. It's really the little things that get you...for example, if I'm walking forward and I turn my head, as long as it kept walking in the same direction, everything was fine. But if turning your head caused you to start moving in the direction youre facing, it was insta-vomit. Pretty much any time the camera was out of my control or there was a slow acceleration or lots of inertia, I basically had to take the headset off or else I'm cleaning up puke. Even just the slightest bit of it is a problem...so that means practically every cutscene in a game is off the table. Even in something like skyrim, that tiny little zoom in when you talk to someone is going to make people sick, it's a REALLY fine line they have to walk. So forget about any sort of patched in support for old games, they basically have to carefully design everything about the game around VR for this to work.
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post #2356 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 12:02 AM
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So you want that AI code now.


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post #2357 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 02:41 PM
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Excellent comments and critiques on all of the comments BD. Seems like what you are saying is a few key things can make or break this as your experience has grown with it.
  • Very precise user control (controller) that is very intuitive instead of sight based.
  • Wireless & Blue Tooth operation capability
  • User based sight and aperture adjustments to finely tune FOV
  • Game content specifically developed to fully impart or augment the VR experience. Even in older titles
  • Never use it on a balcony of a 2+ floor apartment or house
Great feedback. Have you used it for movie viewing yet (Avatar or etc)? Or can that even be done with the dev kit?
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post #2358 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 02:58 PM
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Excellent comments and critiques on all of the comments BD. Seems like what you are saying is a few key things can make or break this as your experience has grown with it.
  • Very precise user control (controller) that is very intuitive instead of sight based.
  • Wireless & Blue Tooth operation capability
  • User based sight and aperture adjustments to finely tune FOV
  • Game content specifically developed to fully impart or augment the VR experience. Even in older titles
  • Never use it on a balcony of a 2+ floor apartment or house
Great feedback. Have you used it for movie viewing yet (Avatar or etc)? Or can that even be done with the dev kit?

I wouldn't even consider watching a movie on it, the resolution and distortion is so bad that it's basically sub-SD. I just don't know why anyone would willingly do it, and that's putting aside the fact that you're blind and have a box strapped to your face. Maybe the consumer version will be improved enough that it's tolerable, but it'll be just that - tolerable. It'll never be a good way to watch movies IMO. The only situation I could ever see myself using that is if I was on a plane.

Just to give you an idea of how bad the resolution really is, pretty much every interface has to be designed as if it's on a wall two stores high and 20 ft across, and you have to turn your head around to read it all. Any smaller and the text simply wouldn't be legible.

In general I just don't believe that any content not made specifically for VR will ever be worthwhile. For older games and movies at bare minimum that means a developer has to literally get in there and remaster it to suit VR. Anything using some sort of programmatic post conversion technique is going to be a waste of time.
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post #2359 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 04:52 PM
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BD2003:
I know Oculus Rift monitors AVS Forum. Palmer Lucky has even commented in it in the past. So I hope they read your excellent feedback and take it to heart. Because your outlook on the Rift pretty much mirrors all of ours who want VR to be successful. And a big leap forward in video gaming. Especially on PC.
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post #2360 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 05:26 PM
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BD2003:
I know Oculus Rift monitors AVS Forum. Palmer Lucky has even commented in it in the past. So I hope they read your excellent feedback and take it to heart. Because your outlook on the Rift pretty much mirrors all of ours who want VR to be successful. And a big leap forward in video gaming. Especially on PC.

I'm sure these are problems they're aware of, but a lot of this stuff is beyond their power to solve in the near term. The screen simply needs more resolution, but even if they magically conjured a 5 inch 100hz 4K OLED out of thin air, there isn't a GPU in the world that can drive a high quality game at 4K@96hz with low latency. The only solution is time.

Ultimately it's breakthrough moment is going to come down to one thing, and one thing only - is there anything you can do with VR that both incredibly compelling and literally impossible without VR? Something you can't imagine living your life without, like a smartphone? Even just a genre of gaming that's takes the world by storm and can't be replicated without VR will do.

I don't know what that thing is yet, and I'm not sure they do either. Because otherwise once the novelty wears off, it's just going to collect dust. The average consumer simply isn't willing to trade convenience for quality, and there are SO many practical concerns right now that the content really needs to be that much more compelling. I mean earth shattering, change the world kind of compelling. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than a VR cinema, that's for sure. I've seen some cool stuff on it, but certainly not enough to sustain it.

That being said, if there's anything that really gives me hope, it's the guys behind it. You can tell that this is more than a day job for luckey and carmack, and they clearly understand and care about the quality on a personal level. I think it's smart to keep this out of consumers hands for now, because it really just isn't there yet...but if anyone can make it happen, they can.
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post #2361 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 06:02 PM
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Ultimately it's breakthrough moment is going to come down to one thing, and one thing only - is there anything you can do with VR that both incredibly compelling and literally impossible without VR? Something you can't imagine living your life without, like a smartphone? Even just a genre of gaming that's takes the world by storm and can't be replicated without VR will do.
.
Why the Porn industry should be able to answer that one for us....

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post #2362 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 06:53 PM
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So you want that AI code now.


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Ok so about AI....yeah, simultaneously one of the most awesome and one of the most disorienting things I've played so far. I'm still a little dizzy right now typing this. Funny thing about the rift is that a lot of times you can feel absolutely fine while you're using it, but as soon as you take it off and you get back to the real world its super disorienting and you feel a little queasy for a few minutes.

Anyway, so graphically, it works really well. The head tracking is spot on, aside from the resolution quibbles it really looks amazing, by far...by really, really far its the most impressive thing I've seen. And it runs and responds absolutely perfectly, and even the UI isn't that terrible. And one of the really awesome things is that since you're using an OLED screen and you've got goggles on your face, black is BLACK. Like when the lights go out in game, you are in absolute and utter pitch black in the most frightening way possible. Like you are completely and utterly blind in a way that we rarely experience in the real world, and you simply can't replicate that feeling unless you have absolute light control in your room and a huge OLED. Overall it really does look phenomenal though when you're standing still.

But of course, that's the major problem with it, it all breaks down once you start to move. They do the thing where pressing forward moves you in the direction you're looking. Not only does it make you really uncomfortable, it also causes you to completely lose your orientation in the real world, and there's a good chance at best you'll go out of range of the camera, or at worst you'll smash into something. There's a way to recenter it but that also does weird things with the vertical tilt...it just feels so wrong. And my head is STILL spinning like 10 minutes later, something I havent experienced with anything else yet. But there's still other issues beyond that...the field of view is still too narrow. Every time you sit down at a console its like an inch from your face, and any time your avatar sticks their arms out to do something it just looks bizarre. It feels like your viewpoint is a foot in front of your face, it's a common problem with everything I've played, but it feels even worse here. And that's with the FOV as wide as I could make it. Also you seem freakishly tall, and since your brain knows you're sitting down it creates another weird incongruity that just doesn't feel right.

The thing is though, they've clearly put some work into this mode. The cinemas are displayed on a virtual screen in front of you - of course its ridiculously huge, like sitting in the front row of the theater...but it works. Even the UI works this way, so whenever I hit esc to change some settings, I have to look down and to my left to see the menu which would otherwise be in the bottom left of the monitor - its obviously a hack, but at least it works.

So while it's pretty much unplayable due to the comfort issues, I'd like to believe that they're going to finish what they started and have official support at some point, because its SO close...I know those are fixable problems, because other games have already fixed them. All they have to do is unlink your movement from your head, widen the FOV and bring the height down a bit, and it's there. I have to say that despite the blurriness of the resolution it was such a crazy awesome experience that I can't even conceive of playing it any other way now. I just got a few minutes in where the space station starts to break down, and some of the stuff like the smoke and fire effects looked so realistic that it was absolutely unbelievable. And when the lights went out I was truly, genuinely frightened about what was about to happen, and even supposedly scary games rarely get under my skin like that.
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post #2363 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 06:57 PM
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Why the Porn industry should be able to answer that one for us....
Lol, I had the exact same thought...as soon as someone figures out how to bone in VR, it's gonna be a trillion dollar industry.
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post #2364 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 07:47 PM
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I thought they should have packaged AI and OR together on kickstarter. Playing this game with the lights out and headphones is pretty damn intense I can only imagine how OR amps up the game.

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post #2365 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 08:00 PM
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Lol, I had the exact same thought...as soon as someone figures out how to bone in VR, it's gonna be a trillion dollar industry.
...
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post #2366 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 08:45 PM
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This does make you wonder what Valve has in the closet for the launch of this device (for Steam and future games). Especially since they contributed so much to its development. A lot of the Valve tech guys like Abrash are at the Rift as we speak. Probably working on many of the issues you have raised BD.
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post #2367 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 08:55 PM
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I thought they should have packaged AI and OR together on kickstarter. Playing this game with the lights out and headphones is pretty damn intense I can only imagine how OR amps up the game.
Ya, it's such a natural fit, I hope they eventually get it right.

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post #2368 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 09:52 PM
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Got Final Fantasy 13 pre-ordered back in Sept ($10) got my key earlier this morning. Download was 49.4gb lol. Full install is 59gb. The cutscenes alone are 40gb of that lol. Guess I should eventually get around to playing it at some point.

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post #2369 of 2429 Old 10-09-2014, 10:25 PM
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Got Final Fantasy 13 pre-ordered back in Sept ($10) got my key earlier this morning. Download was 49.4gb lol. Full install is 59gb. The cutscenes alone are 40gb of that lol. Guess I should eventually get around to playing it at some point.
PC version locked at 720P. I like consoles and all, but this generation is screwing PC games over. Evil Within needs a 4GB Video card for 1080P. I really wish Game makers would start optimizing better!

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post #2370 of 2429 Old 10-10-2014, 12:15 AM
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PC version locked at 720P. I like consoles and all, but this generation is screwing PC games over. Evil Within needs a 4GB Video card for 1080P. I really wish Game makers would start optimizing better!
Not even been out a full day and the same guy who broke the resolution and FPS cap for Dark Souls already fixed FFXIII. You can have it render at 4k and downsample to whatever res you want. So it's fixed lol.
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