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post #1 of 19 Old 01-12-2011, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Until recently, I was frustrated by the inadequacies of nvidia's 3D Vision and 3DTV Play 3D gaming solution.
3D Vision gives full quality 3D 1080P/60 gaming, but only on teeny tiny little 23" monitors. Like gaming on a postage stamp.
3DTV Play supports full sized 3D Ready HDTVs, but forces downresing to non-native 720P images on a 1080P display, resulting in bad picture quality. Turns out, 3D Vision does work with 3D Ready HDTVs, and some of them provide the option of native resolution 1920x1080 at 60 frames per second per eye, aka 'checkerboard mode'. The system requirements on Nvidia's site imply these sets are not supported, but they are, an error of omission on nvidia's part. Nvidia does not document how to do this, but I'll provide implementation details upon request.
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-12-2011, 11:55 PM
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I will defend Nvidia here even though I'm using AMD atm. It is not their fault, bandwidth limitation. Best deal going for 3D gaming is a 120Hz 3D DLP projector. Acer H5360 works with both Nvidia and AMD.

Snip ->http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1306417

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24Hz frame packing (1080p+1080p at 24Hz) is converted to 120Hz frame sequencing 3D (60Hz per eye) *inside* a HDMI 1.4a display. But HDMI 1.4a limits S3D gaming to 720p+720p at 60Hz. Currently no HDMI transmitter can transmit 1080p+1080p at 60Hz or 1080p at 120Hz (60Hz per eye) because of the bandwidth limitation. Type A HDMI->Dual Link DVI adapter is useless (half of the TMDS data pins in the dual-link DVI won't be used).

What 3D display are you going to get? The displays that will work are:

- Every HDMI 1.4a HDTV/JP; 1080p 24Hz frame packing (or 720p 60Hz frame packing for gaming) over HDMI; the bundled emitter/glasses
- Mitsubishi/Samsung 3D DLP HDTV; 1080p 60Hz checkerboard over HDMI; DLP-Link glasses or 3D Vision Kit
- Some 720p 120Hz DLP PJ (e.g. Acer H5360); 720p 120Hz frame sequencing over HDMI; DLP-Link glasses or 3D Vision Kit

But if you are thinking of a 3D Vision-certified LCD monitor, you are out of luck without dual-link DVI output as only dual-link DVI can transmit 1080p 120Hz frame sequencing (precisely speaking, there are some models that support 120Hz frame sequencing via VGA).
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-13-2011, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

I will defend Nvidia here even though I'm using AMD atm. It is not their fault, bandwidth limitation.

It *is* Nvidias fault!
All drivers currently incorporate 1920x1080/60P in checkerboard mode and it works perfectly. This is known as 3D Vision. Starting with driver release 260.89, nvidia boobey trapped the drivers by automatically degrading the image quality from 1920x1080 checkerboard, to 1280x720 frame packing, and bad image quality results due to non-native resolution. For HDMI 1.4 displays, there is no way to avoid this degradation, it happens automatically. So it isn't a matter of Nvidia developing support for checkerboard, it is already in the drivers. All Nvidia need do is eliminate the line of code that says "if a HDMI 1.4 display is detected, downres from 1920x1080 to 1280x720". As it is, HDMI 1.3 displays are not subject to this degradation, so 3D Ready Samsung plasma/LED displays prior to 2010 get full 1920x1080 image quality. (oh wait...there are no plasma/Led 1080P 3D Ready displays prior to 2010!).
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Best deal going for 3D gaming is a 120Hz 3D DLP projector. Acer H5360 works with both Nvidia and AMD.

All front projection DLP units make a horrible howling noise, so they are rejected out of hand.

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What 3D display are you going to get? The displays that will work are:

- Every HDMI 1.4a HDTV/JP; 1080p 24Hz frame packing (or 720p 60Hz frame packing for gaming) over HDMI; the bundled emitter/glasses
- Mitsubishi/Samsung 3D DLP HDTV; 1080p 60Hz checkerboard over HDMI; DLP-Link glasses or 3D Vision Kit
- Some 720p 120Hz DLP PJ (e.g. Acer H5360); 720p 120Hz frame sequencing over HDMI; DLP-Link glasses or 3D Vision Kit

There is no real choice here , you go with the sammy/Mits option. Gaming at 24Hz is undoable, 720P is ugly cause of downresing. In your above table, you omitted the crucial fact that all 3D Ready Plasma and LED 1080P HDMI 1.4 displays by samsung support 1920x1080 checkerboard.
So just use the 258 drivers, right? No, because these old drivers don't work with newer games like CoD: Black Ops. When I get around to playing these new games, I'll need to resort to a messy hardware hack. Nvidia deliberately sabatoged their own drivers, and the customers must pay the price for their arrogance.
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-13-2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

It *is* Nvidias fault!
All drivers currently incorporate 1920x1080/60P in checkerboard mode and it works perfectly. This is known as 3D Vision. Starting with driver release 260.89, nvidia boobey trapped the drivers by automatically degrading the image quality from 1920x1080 checkerboard, to 1280x720 frame packing, and bad image quality results due to non-native resolution. For HDMI 1.4 displays, there is no way to avoid this degradation, it happens automatically. So it isn't a matter of Nvidia developing support for checkerboard, it is already in the drivers. All Nvidia need do is eliminate the line of code that says "if a HDMI 1.4 display is detected, downres from 1920x1080 to 1280x720". As it is, HDMI 1.3 displays are not subject to this degradation, so 3D Ready Samsung plasma/LED displays prior to 2010 get full 1920x1080 image quality. (oh wait...there are no plasma/Led 1080P 3D Ready displays prior to 2010!). All front projection DLP units make a horrible howling noise, so they are rejected out of hand.

There is no real choice here , you go with the sammy/Mits option. Gaming at 24Hz is undoable, 720P is ugly cause of downresing. In your above table, you omitted the crucial fact that all 3D Ready Plasma and LED 1080P HDMI 1.4 displays by samsung support 1920x1080 checkerboard.
So just use the 258 drivers, right? No, because these old drivers don't work with newer games like CoD: Black Ops. When I get around to playing these new games, I'll need to resort to a messy hardware hack. Nvidia deliberately sabatoged their own drivers, and the customers must pay the price for their arrogance.

Checkerboard is half the resolution anyway, so you might as well just use 720p 60Hz instead, or go with 1080p 24Hz if that doesn't bother your eyes.

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post #5 of 19 Old 01-14-2011, 12:39 AM
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Again, it is a bandwidth limitation of HDMI why they do that

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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

All front projection DLP units make a horrible howling noise, so they are rejected out of hand.

My Acer H5360 makes no noise. Native 1280x720p 120Hz 3D Page Flipped.

3DHDTVs are for watching movies
120Hz 3D DLP projectors are for gaming
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-14-2011, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Checkerboard is half the resolution anyway, so you might as well just use 720p 60Hz instead, or go with 1080p 24Hz if that doesn't bother your eyes.
Your facts are correct, your conclusion is wrong. checkerboard is 960x1080 res per eye, so it is a perfect 1-to-1 pixel match, the presentation is in native resolution. Each composed frame is 1920x1080. Since it's a 1-to-1 pixel match, image quality is crisp, well-defined.
720P is downresed, each composed frame is 1280x720 and not in native resolution. It's so ugly, many people would rather game in native resolution 2D than downresed 3D.
1920x1080 non-checkerboard is 24 frames per eye. Gaming becomes a slide show at the refresh rate, it is worthless as a gaming mode so not an alternative.
In a perfect world 1920x1080/60 non-checkerboard is ideal, but the reality is that because we're stuck with a single link input, we must go to plan B, 1920x1080 checkerboard. This mode is BY FAR the best alternative. You get full framerate, and most of the time you can't tell that it's not real 1920x1080. My point is that Nvidia went out of their way to boobey trap the post 258 drivers, so nobody can say "isn't Nvidia's fault".
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-14-2011, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Again, it is a bandwidth limitation of HDMI why they do that

Again, no it's not. There is more than enough bandwidth to do 1920x1080 checkerboard. Every Mitsubishi DLP has a HDMI input and they all do 1920x1080 checkerboard perfectly. The 258 drivers work perfectly too, and they use the same HDMI input.
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My Acer H5360 makes no noise.

I was referring to a stock, unaltered Acer H5360. Not a unit that has had it's fan disabled. If anyone ever makes a DLP projector that makes 'no noise', I'll be the first to buy one.
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-14-2011, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

Again, no it's not. There is more than enough bandwidth to do 1920x1080 checkerboard. Every Mitsubishi DLP has a HDMI input and they all do 1920x1080 checkerboard perfectly. The 258 drivers work perfectly too, and they use the same HDMI input.
I was referring to a stock, unaltered Acer H5360. Not a unit that has had it's fan disabled. If anyone ever makes a DLP projector that makes 'no noise', I'll be the first to buy one.

Then use iZ3D driver instead of nvidia's.
My Acer is stock, unaltered and it is quiet.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-14-2011, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

I was referring to a stock, unaltered Acer H5360. Not a unit that has had it's fan disabled. If anyone ever makes a DLP projector that makes 'no noise', I'll be the first to buy one.

Dude, stick to your Nvidia 3D Pontifications, you clearly haven't a clue when it comes to Projectors. Did you see an Acer once running in bright mode on high-altitude fan mode and assume every projector sounded just like that one?


I've got 3 projectors currently, and the loudest of them is completely ignorable if you have anything at all playing on your sound system, and the least audible of them is virtually silent......you have to strain yourself to even tell if the unit is on.

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post #10 of 19 Old 01-15-2011, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you see an Acer once running in bright mode on high-altitude fan mode and assume every projector sounded just like that one?

Yes, that's exactly right. I assume all DLPs use fans. All DLPs use light bulbs, and bulbs get hot and require a fan, and fans make noise. Period, end of story.
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I've got 3 projectors currently, and the loudest of them is completely ignorable

So all your projectors make various degrees of fan noise, no surprise there.
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if you have anything at all playing on your sound system,

95% of the time my computer is on, I don't have anything playing on the sound system. So even if speaker sounds did somewhat mask the noise, that would help only 5% of the time.
If you know of a DLP projector that does not use a fan, give me a model number so I can buy 10 of them.
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post #11 of 19 Old 01-15-2011, 12:55 PM
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My Acer H5360 is on a shelf behind my recliner about 1 foot from my head and I cannot hear it!
Should be thread closed instead of case closed.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-18-2011, 06:55 AM
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Yes, that's exactly right. I assume all DLPs use fans. All DLPs use light bulbs, and bulbs get hot and require a fan, and fans make noise. Period, end of story.

Not end of story, can you hear the fan when you are watching content with the projector...y/n, that is "end of story". With my ears, in high brightness mode and high fan I can hear the fans on my projectors when there is nothing happening onscreen.

But then again I have air conditioning and I hear that too....I have heat and I hear that too....it becomes white noise, like road traffic outside, you don't notice it. And that sound will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

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So all your projectors make various degrees of fan noise, no surprise there.

Never disputed that fact, the question is how loud of a noise does it make.
In low fan mode, which is what all my PJ's are on, the sound is inaudible. Several times I had to walk up to the PJ and look in the lens to see if light was coming out of it to see if the unit was on, I couldn't hear it. If I jack up the fan then I can hear a soft rush of air though, but again...its a white noise...it disappears into the ambient sounds of the room after 30 seconds or so.

Quote:
95% of the time my computer is on, I don't have anything playing on the sound system. So even if speaker sounds did somewhat mask the noise, that would help only 5% of the time.

If you are really crazy about noise, build a hush-box.

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If you know of a DLP projector that does not use a fan, give me a model number so I can buy 10 of them.

All projectors will require fans...hell if LED flashlights get any brighter they'll need fans too.

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post #13 of 19 Old 01-22-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I would really like a FP, but my experience is that they are louder than a rear proj DLP like the Sony or Mits. Not only do FP create more noise, but the user is much closer to the sound source. Can you compare the audible difference of RP vs FP, not at the same distance from the user, but at typical distances where the RP will have a big advantage? Also, is this low sound level obtained only in low/eco mode? If so, is the image quality sacrificed to get lower noise?
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I don't own a DLP based RPTV, so I cannot compare.

As far as the technologies go, a DLP RPTV can be used in any room in any light level. A FP of any kind will only look its best in a darkened room. They all have bright modes now where you can use them in a somewhat lit room to even a lit up room and still see a pretty good image, but it wont compare to the image with the lights out.

With my Optoma in low-lamp mode, the fan runs extra low....and it never disturbs me when I am watching a movie. What does it sound like above my head?
Probably like a computer sounds from across a large room when everything else is quiet. If you listen for it you might be able to hear it, but once any kind of sound happens from your HT system that white-fan-noise disappears.

My Marantz projector is the same way, if just a little bit louder. The only time you can hear the fan (as in, 'hey is there a fan running?') is when I kick either projector into high brightness mode and then turn on high-altitude mode, which causes the fans to run at even faster speeds (if you are high above sea level where the air is thinner, etc)......and that is for watching like, Football in the afternoon or something...again, will you care about it when you are watching the game with all its noise,e tc, etc? Nope.

The fans they use are designed to produce a white noise kind of sound that just disappears even when it is obvious. I never, ever notice the fans. And I am pretty sure that the projectors out today are even quieter, even as their brightness levels have gone up.


But...your mileage may vary. Nobody wants to hear fan noise, so buy a Home Theatre designed projector and you likely wont hear a thing. buy a business-class or multi function projector, however, and you may not be as lucky. but at my job we have projectors, business class ones, that sometimes sit on tables next to speakerphones, and even those nobody ever complains about fan noise...its just 'ambient room noise' and you forget its there as soon as your brain focuses on what you are watching on the screen...

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post #15 of 19 Old 01-23-2011, 08:27 PM
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Acer H5360 on sale for $499usd.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009223

If it is too loud, send it back.
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post #16 of 19 Old 01-24-2011, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Acer H5360 on sale for $499usd.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009223

If it is too loud, send it back.

You can only return for replacement at NewEgg.....might want to pay a little more and go with Amazon.
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-26-2011, 01:02 PM
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Everybody loves this projector! I can't imagine anyone returning it.
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post #18 of 19 Old 03-21-2011, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Until recently, I was frustrated by the inadequacies of nvidia's 3D Vision and 3DTV Play 3D gaming solution.
3D Vision gives full quality 3D 1080P/60 gaming, but only on teeny tiny little 23" monitors. Like gaming on a postage stamp.
3DTV Play supports full sized 3D Ready HDTVs, but forces downresing to non-native 720P images on a 1080P display, resulting in bad picture quality. Turns out, 3D Vision does work with 3D Ready HDTVs, and some of them provide the option of native resolution 1920x1080 at 60 frames per second per eye, aka 'checkerboard mode'. The system requirements on Nvidia's site imply these sets are not supported, but they are, an error of omission on nvidia's part. Nvidia does not document how to do this, but I'll provide implementation details upon request.
OMG Roller11 you are my hero!! Please please let me in on how you made 3d vision work on a 3dtv!!! I have a 3dtv capable of doing checkerboard at 60 fps per eye so I know that it will work, I just need to know what the trick is I'm an experienced computer tech and I know all the lingo, so don't worry I will understand what's required when/if you explain everything
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post #19 of 19 Old 04-20-2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rEd2k View Post


Quote:



Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

Until recently, I was frustrated by the inadequacies of nvidia's 3D Vision and 3DTV Play 3D gaming solution.

3D Vision gives full quality 3D 1080P/60 gaming, but only on teeny tiny little 23" monitors. Like gaming on a postage stamp.

3DTV Play supports full sized 3D Ready HDTVs, but forces downresing to non-native 720P images on a 1080P display, resulting in bad picture quality. Turns out, 3D Vision does work with 3D Ready HDTVs, and some of them provide the option of native resolution 1920x1080 at 60 frames per second per eye, aka 'checkerboard mode'. The system requirements on Nvidia's site imply these sets are not supported, but they are, an error of omission on nvidia's part. Nvidia does not document how to do this, but I'll provide implementation details upon request.



OMG Roller11 you are my hero!! Please please let me in on how you made 3d vision work on a 3dtv!!! I have a 3dtv capable of doing checkerboard at 60 fps per eye so I know that it will work, I just need to know what the trick is
I'm an experienced computer tech and I know all the lingo, so don't worry I will understand what's required when/if you explain everything

Im interested in this too!
I agree that perfect pixel mapping will make a huge difference. Even if the quality will not be proper full HD. The difference should be equivalent to the difference between 720p 3D and 1080p Half SBS movies. Of course 1080p Full SBS will be better. But the difference between 720p and 1080p Half SBS is far greater than the difference between 1080p Half SBS and 1080p Full SBS
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