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post #1 of 257 Old 11-28-2012, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I am very excited about development progress along this new format Path. Based on the apparent level of developer interest and activities, they appear to be much farther down their critical path than many of us thought. As smaller...thinner...lightweight Oled displays become more affordable, this could easily become the way to go IMO. Oculus Rift with 3D...interactive wireless or motion controls...Gaming HTPC and Steam could be the real future of gaming. It is very early in their development curve. With lots of bugs and issues to work out. But I like the trajectory of their thinking. NexGen consoles appear to be headed down a more traditional...incremental improvement path with multimedia bolted on it. This technology is about creating a whole new kind of gaming experience. It could be a true paradigm shifter in so many ways. Especially its ease of integration with mobile, tablet and PC gaming. And it seems better suited for advanced HTPC integration.

http://oculusrift.org/oculus-rift-virtual-reality-headset/

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ingame/groundbreaking-oculus-rift-virtual-reality-glasses-delayed-1C7308452

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game/posts/357600

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ingame/groundbreaking-oculus-rift-virtual-reality-glasses-delayed-1C7308452#/technology/ingame/get-behind-scenes-oculus-rift-931087

http://www.oculusvr.com/

http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/oculus-rift-make-virtual-reality-gaming-affordable-reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=tJoi2A2566U&NR=1
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post #2 of 257 Old 11-28-2012, 09:55 PM
 
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http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resolution-its-all-relative/

Allow me to poor some cold water all over that excitement. Sploosh! Keep in mind that there is no greater proponent of VR/AR out there than Michael Abrash, nor is there anybody better funded to play in that field.

The short of it? Half of a 1080p panel jammed up against your face gives you about the same pixel density as when we were playing 160x72 resolution games on our 14" monitors. This isn't just low resolution. This is vile resolution. It will be cool, but that cool brings with it some extreme compromises. You think people complained a lot when Nintendo chose motion over 720p? Oculus is as if Nintendo had chosen 256x144 for the Wii in order to hit their motion target.
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post #3 of 257 Old 11-28-2012, 10:17 PM
 
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Ooh! Exercise time! What resolution do you game at on your PC? I run 1920x1080 on my 24" monitors. In order to get a feel for how enormous the pixels are going to be on 1080p Oculus, here's what we do. We go in to our video card control panel and build a custom resolution. For me, that will be 424x240. Now we go find a game that will run at that resolution. Maybe Rage? Let's see! smile.gif
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post #4 of 257 Old 11-28-2012, 11:15 PM
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The dual images do help a bit, but very little. MSAA will be VERY important, but that too will be only a slight improvement. I hope they up the resolution as quick as they can. What would be nice is if they either built in some way to upgrade to another higher resolution screen, at a proper cost, or added an additional part to their business that sold do-it-yourself kits and the necessary interface connectors for available high resolution phone displays.


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post #5 of 257 Old 11-29-2012, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Ooh! Exercise time! What resolution do you game at on your PC? I run 1920x1080 on my 24" monitors. In order to get a feel for how enormous the pixels are going to be on 1080p Oculus, here's what we do. We go in to our video card control panel and build a custom resolution. For me, that will be 424x240. Now we go find a game that will run at that resolution. Maybe Rage? Let's see! smile.gif

I'm feeling that sploosh man:eek:. I run mine at 1920x1080 on a 24" monitor too. Questions...couldn't 4k x 2k improve that some? Be gentle with me on that one because I'm in virgin territory there. And do you really have to go all the way to 720p or 1080p to get a "perception" of HD in micro displays like Oculus. I reference some Youtube type videos as a basis for the question. Where you have the option to view in various SD or HD formats. Even though I select HD settings, I don't find the lower resolutions unacceptable at all. And if they were almost at eyeball level...I doubt I would be able to tell the difference. Darbee type technology in the PC-Display chain may also become important in the development of this new format too...if higher resolutions impose impossible barriers to overcome.

DLJ...my excitement is not over this bulky looking and obviously limited early tech version of this brilliant idea. It is over the early emergence of a completely new kind of gaming experience...that todate has only been in the realm sci-fi movies and hyper classified military tech. Those guys piloting those drones in Pakistan from Air Force bases in Colorado are using much more advanced versions of similar technology. I bet they have already solved the problems you articulated so well. This is early stage stuff that I am glad to see happen. IMO it is the real NexGen gaming idea. All the other stuff is just what we are doing now...but just better. This is about what we are doing now...but completely differently. Some will love it. Others will hate it. But I do think it marries up better with the infinitely adjustable/improvable/intimate world of PC/Cloud gaming...and the convenience/quick service world of mobile gaming better.

Console gaming is more about living/family room display gaming IMO. And I don't see this kind of experience challenging that. I thought VR Gaming was about 2-3 generations away. Even the optical/glasses challenge...like the near-sighted guy on the YouTube demo can be easily solved today with simple, lightweight, adjustable optic rings in the eyepiece itself. There are eyeglasses on the market that already do this. Motion controls could be a big problem if it requires one to move around while playing. But Kinect type devices are tailor made for it. One can sit and convert their entire body into a control function...finger triggers...wrist tapping for grenades...etc.

This new format has an ocean to cross to become acceptable IMO. But on the other side is a totally new gaming world.
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post #6 of 257 Old 11-29-2012, 12:44 PM
 
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Alright, I couldn't get Rage running at 424x240. Instead I scaled a 1080p native image down, then back up. So, this is roughly what 1080p Oculus panels will look like in terms of pixel density.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/1100265829655105753/10F399012F5BA1A8E3C75E510BF500F37738A92C/

You'll note that it feels about the same as Doom 1. You'll also notice that that white lump at center-left is not really distinguishable as a car. smile.gif
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post #7 of 257 Old 11-29-2012, 01:14 PM
 
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"couldn't 4k x 2k improve that some?"

As Abrash said, 8k x 8k is about ideal. You're looking at a 128 megapixel render instead of today's high-end 6MP. At absolutely optimal Moore's law, that's 7.5 years until we gain that capability. Given that we've been making gains of significantly less than 2x / 18 months in performance in GPUs, focusing more on cost and efficiency, we are likely 15 years out from achievable 128MP rendering in real time. On top of that CPUs have stalled. We've roughly doubled performance since 2004. Far less than the roughly 16x performance improvement from the 8 years from 1996-2004 and 1988-1996.

There is also another enormous problem. Small, high-density 720p panels for the prototype, and tiny 1080p panels for the shipping unit are available because of cellular phones. In the two years since the iPhone 4 hit, there has been a huge push for high-density displays, making them plentiful and cheap. The problem is, Apple called their display "Retina" for a reason. Now that we have almost universally enabled cell phones to exceed our eye's ability to resolve pixels, what is the push to move resolutions higher? 960x640 at 3.5" or 1920x1080 at 5" is as sharp as could be needed. Any extra resolution is throwing processing power, and therefore battery life and weight, at a solution with no benefit. 4k x 2k doesn't look any sharper than 1080p at 5" when held a foot and a half from your head. Neither does 16k x 8x.

So, without cell phones pushing resolution any more, that leaves VR to be the sole pusher of higher density displays. That quickly creates a "chicken and egg" scenario. Nobody makes VR displays because there are no suitable panels. Nobody makes suitable panels because there are no VR displays.

Let's look at my living room now. 10 years ago I had a 27" CRT. Today there is a 64" plasma sitting in there, for not that much more money. The days when we can get flat panels that cover an entire wall are rapidly approaching. I only have four walls to cover. I also now have a motion sensing eye in the room (Kinect) that people have already built solutions for involving full body tracking and display projection within a space. In short, full-room display and tracking is a lot more realistic of a goal, and a lot more viable as to how we get there without any sudden leaps in corporate altruism.

Carmack, Abrash, and Palmer are all brilliant. They are far smarter than any of us here. I fear that they all may be having difficulty keeping realistic expectations due to project proximity.
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post #8 of 257 Old 11-29-2012, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent summary DLJ. And you are right...It is chicken vs egg right now. But I think if the niche market is really there. Companies like Apple, Asus, AMD, Intel, IBM and even Sony or Samsung will be looking for ways to ramp this idea up. Especially if the interest by PC and Mobile users are piqued. The Head mounted VR system will definitely pass the WAF test much faster than the full room hologram display format IMO. I also guestimate that the Oculus format could really jumpstart a new surge in PC gaming. And that is why so many devsLike Gabe Newell seem to be backing their prototype system. Thanks for the exceptional responses.
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post #9 of 257 Old 12-18-2012, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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OMG...I sure hope the OR team does not allow this kind of stuff define their product at launch. Or they are DOA...over and out before getting started! Parents will not let their kids get near one of these devices if they risk being exposed to this kind of trash.

http://newswire.xbiz.com/view.php?id=157755

Perhaps a good walk spoiled?
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post #10 of 257 Old 12-18-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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VR headsets are not toys for children, nor will they be for years to come. The ideal audience for a $300 headset is 18-35 males with disposable income, the same target audience for porn. This is synergy at it's finest.

Parents don't even enter in to the equation. They do not matter.
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post #11 of 257 Old 12-19-2012, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

VR headsets are not toys for children, nor will they be for years to come. The ideal audience for a $300 headset is 18-35 males with disposable income, the same target audience for porn. This is synergy at it's finest.
Parents don't even enter in to the equation. They do not matter.

ROFLMAO on that one. biggrin.gif I guess leisure Suit Larry will go all the way to bright on the Rift. Not to mention what Shepard will be able to do in Mass Effect. He/she won't have much time to fight the Reapers. And Fable could take on a whole new meaning of life.
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post #12 of 257 Old 01-11-2013, 11:53 AM
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The device is getting some rave reviews at CES this year. I actually at one point backed the Kickstarter before cancelling it, deciding to wait for the consumer version that they're going to work on after that... but there's still part of me that wishes I hadn't.

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post #13 of 257 Old 01-11-2013, 02:00 PM
 
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I'll take this moment to remind you about the pixels the size of your fist. smile.gif Shipping Oculus is cool from a dev standpoint, and will be cool in the home for a couple of hours. Then you'll play on a regular monitor again and realize that you can now actually *see* the art that the designers put in the game!
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post #14 of 257 Old 01-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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Yeah, that's pretty much what made me decide to back out... not even so much the resolution factor, but the fact that I had a feeling it'd be pretty cool for a few hours and then I'd get bored of it. biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 257 Old 01-14-2013, 08:55 PM
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The tech sounds fantastic. I can't wait to see how the final consumer product comes together and maybe give it a test drive.

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post #16 of 257 Old 01-16-2013, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The tech sounds fantastic. I can't wait to see how the final consumer product comes together and maybe give it a test drive.

+1. I'm totally with you on this one. I will def give it a test run when released. If it works I think it will ultimately be just a very thin plastic wrap around with ultra thin Oleds for viewing and very dark shaded areas on the borders similar to screens ( to block out light). A good friend of mine from EA saw the tech at CES and was awed by it. He thinks it is a "shoo-in" gaming platform. Especially for mobile and tablet type. And thinks the on the go market and youth will "flood" to it, once the technology is debugged. The gent also said EA is assessing using it in the future on multiple dev platforms. And sports is a "no brainer". But he did say that they had some"minor" technical hurdles to overcome before a realistic consumer model would be feasible. Perhaps some of them are those referenced by DLJ on this thread. And they are very interested in the technology and Occulus Business Plan.
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post #17 of 257 Old 01-16-2013, 03:30 PM
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This thing looks very interesting. I think they should have motion tracking gloves to go along with it. I want to look down and see my arm realistically mimicking all my actions. I think that would add that extra level to it.

One small leap for gaming, but one step closer to the Holo Deck.
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post #18 of 257 Old 01-16-2013, 09:55 PM
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I don't think you can compare the resolution in the oculus to s normal monitor. the pixel count is denser where you focus, and less dense in your perepheral vision. I bet the consumer version will be awesome as they plan on upping the pixel density
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post #19 of 257 Old 01-16-2013, 11:29 PM
 
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Again, go read my linked post in post #2. Mr. Abrash knows far more about this stuff than any of us can even begin to pretend to know. Remember, this is a guy that Gabe keeps on the payroll to sit at Valve all day just thinking about future problems. He doesn't even contribute anything directly to Valve's games. smile.gif

In addition, even if their optics tricks moved every one of the one million pixels available from half a 1080p panel to your central vision, it would still be blocky on the level of 640x480, at best. But then of course we'd be right back where we started, VR headsets with tunnel-vision.
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post #20 of 257 Old 01-17-2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

This thing looks very interesting. I think they should have motion tracking gloves to go along with it. I want to look down and see my arm realistically mimicking all my actions. I think that would add that extra level to it.

One small leap for gaming, but one step closer to the Holo Deck.

Maybe this could be combined with kinect for arm tracking.
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post #21 of 257 Old 01-17-2013, 12:52 PM
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They're on record as saying none of the motion control stuff like Kinect has low enough latency for it to work. Kinect introduces something like 10x the latency of the glasses themselves. Something like 30ms vs 300ms.

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post #22 of 257 Old 01-18-2013, 03:05 AM
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Kinect is a toy, but with a LEAP motion device hand and finger tracking would work flawlessly! It's 70$ and a collaborative effort between Oculus and LEAP is very likely to happen.





From what i've heard, the low resolution isn't such a big issue as it seems. I think they're doing it right concentrating on the stuff like head tracking, latency and weight first. The consumer version will ship with a higher res display anyway. Upcoming major game titles like Project C.A.R.S and Star Citizen, and last but not least the upcoming games from Valve and id Software will support it from the git go. And i'm sure that there are many other high profile devs among those kickstarter backers.

This video catches the true reactions of people who have tried it very well:





It's not the usual hype around products, many many people wanted something like this to happen since the 90's, but weren't convinced until they saw it in person. Many who got bored of playing in front of a monitor or TV will get back to gaming.
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What's up with the sudden rush of random forum users that think they know better about resolution issues than people that spend their lives thinking about these problems?

On one side we have Abrash, Carmack, and Palmer saying "Yup, the poor resolution is totally a major weak point." Then on the other side we've got Random AVS Guy #1 & #2, that it should be noted have never even touched one of these devices, saying "Nah, totally not, bro!".

Only one side of this argument has any credibility.
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post #24 of 257 Old 01-18-2013, 07:45 AM
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From what i've heard, the low resolution isn't such a big issue as it seems. I think they're doing it right concentrating on the stuff like head tracking, latency and weight first. The consumer version will ship with a higher res display anyway.
I've also heard that the resolution will be increased in the consumer version. So it's too early to dismiss it on those grounds, especially since the "low-res" model is still impressive to a ton of folks who have tried it out.

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post #25 of 257 Old 01-18-2013, 10:00 AM
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What's up with the sudden rush of random forum users that think they know better about resolution issues than people that spend their lives thinking about these problems?

What does change if they think about it? With thinking you won't get higher ppi, they have to wait until higher resolution displays in that form-factor get mass-produced.
Quote:
On one side we have Abrash, Carmack, and Palmer saying "Yup, the poor resolution is totally a major weak point." Then on the other side we've got Random AVS Guy #1 & #2, that it should be noted have never even touched one of these devices, saying "Nah, totally not, bro!".

Only one side of this argument has any credibility.

"Of course not, dude!". rolleyes.gif
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post #26 of 257 Old 02-08-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Latest updates from the real next gen gaming platform IMO. I simply can't wait for this to come out in its consumer version. I will immediately pair it up with my PC...and consoles. But the real reward will be when Valve and other devs start designing games with this kind of immersive display in mind. The Half Life 2 demo is simply awesome in full screen mode. I can only guess what it looked like with the Rift on. This thing looks like the real deal! I absolutely will not buy any new console until I see where this technology is going with PC gaming.

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/28320/oculus-rift-used-with-half-life-2-and-a-vr-head-and-gun-tracking-mod-incredible-results/index.html

http://vr-zone.com/articles/oculus-rift-announces-features-for-those-wearing-glasses-and-contacts/18912.html

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/06/oculus-rift-still-on-for-march-has-lens-caps-for-vision-impaire/

http://www.oculusvr.com/

http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/project-holodeck-full-body-vr-kit-built-using-oculus-rift

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/oculus-rift-hands-on-preview,3408.html
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post #28 of 257 Old 03-26-2013, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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The latest news on this compelling new technology:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/26/oculus-rift-hawken-demo-hands-on

http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/26/4147702/hawken-oculus-rift

I was very pleased to read that the consumer version is planned to include 1080p. As far as the nausea and disorientation that some experienced...I think that will be a challenge for OR. Because not everyone is suited to experience fast action games, fast paced explosive events, or live simulations in a real time setting, or environment like this. In other words...some things may appear too real and outside the boundaries of reality of what one would actually do...that it could induce illness. But IMO that places the onus squarely on the shoulders of the content providers and users. Educate and know your limitations. Be responsible parents. Monitor your children's content. Etc...etc. Primarily in the gaming world. Game developers will have to bend theeir dev models to find the right mix of features to add, enhance, soften or subtract. If they all embrace this technology as it appears they are doing...I suspect devs will eventually add VR levels to games that weakly and/or substantially use OR. Sort of like adding Easy...Normal...Hard...and Insanity levels in games today. Like everything else that is new...there will be a learning curve on how much to spoon feed us.I actually think this technology will encourage a much needed development trend in gaming. And that is for slower paced...more visually intense...action games that are based on more RPG, problem solving and discovery mechanics.

In the areas of movie, slideshow photography (from mobile and other devices) documentaryand other viewing...I don't think very much adjustment is needed at all. There is a ton of content alreadyavailable in the marketplace that will be a blast to watch in this format. I think this technology actuallyhas the potential to turboboost the Blu-Ray and DVD movie markets. Think vacaitioning families in cars, airports and hotel rooms. IMO video games will give Oculus Rift its sizzle. But the other video applications will be its real steak.
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post #29 of 257 Old 03-29-2013, 12:21 PM
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post #30 of 257 Old 03-29-2013, 11:04 PM
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I'm going to get the consumer version on launch day!!!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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